Once I kill you, the contents of your corpse are all now mine. This does not mean I need to do anything with them, it means only that whatever I choose to do with them is my right. If I want to give you back my items that used to be your items, I can do that. But if I want to (be a ####) I can sacrifice them all to my Unholy Shovel god.

By this logic, if I kill you and I take your charred leather bracer I did not STEAL your charred leather bracer. I killed you, thereby winning a right of way to your charred leather bracer, and so I took your charred leather bracer - and that's not the same thing.

I'm getting reeeeally tired of whining over looting. There are no rules in the game, or laws within a cabal that prohibit it.

At hero, I can get weapons and enough +damroll/+hp gear to get me through before I unghost.

Then, I take my newly unghosted person, who now has a lot less to lose because I don't have stellar gear, and I go kill someone who has better gear than me. Then I work my way back up the food chain. Problem solved. I have no problem with Stunna taking all my stuff. That's his prerogative. Yes, it's absolutely frustrating losing some nice gear, and I do get pissed off about it. Then I realize how much fun I have trying to get it, or the equivalent back, and there are tons of ways to do it.

Sack up, CF. If you don't like getting looted, go join an RP server on WoW.

Generally speaking they are looting newbies, not vets.

I can't remember the last time I got full looted, and that's largely because those that do that kind of thing are not competent enough to kill me. (I do die a lot more than I used to.)

I could name a number of characters that I would bet money would full-sac me if they got the chance, but its unlikely that they'll manage it.

How would this argument and its following implications hold with you?

Unlike exploration, which harvests from the gameworld, PK as a whole produces no resources for the player economy -- PK only redistributes, hoards, and sacs resources. Therefore, the very hypothetical player who focuses purely on PK earns nothing of what he takes, no matter how much time, effort, and skill he puts into the game. And that's still perfectly fair so long as his victim has the opportunity to loot the item right back -- that's just extending the contest after all. Saccing, however, ends the contest for that item in a way that is a drain on the player economy and on gameplay itself. The issue then becomes about contributing equally to the game as a whole and to the particular aspects of the game that you play. Good gamesmanship requires a) saccing only as much as you have produced and b) looting only what you have staked in the combat.

A) "Produced" (This one usually fulfills itself...)

1) As a rule of thumb, if your character has never killed a mob with that item (alone or with a group), then you probably shouldn't sac it.

2) Imagine the player economy is the domain of your Immortal. For every item you sac from another PC's corpse, you should produce an item of equal or greater value before your Immortal has a chance to get angry. If you don't want it, give it to an ally who does.

B) "Staked in the combat" (This is the more principled implication...)

1) If you loot an item gained via combat, then you are looting not just a PKer's resource, but also a player's contribution to the game. If they are putting their contributions on the line, so should you. For that reason, you shouldn't even loot something unless it was a stake in the combat.

2) What are you staking? When you PK a character, you have staked anything they used or held against you (i.e., anything that actually increased your risk of being killed). Obviously that includes anything they are wore or equipped at any time while in combat with you. I might stretch this to say it also includes a single instance of a single consumable items like one pill, or one potion, or one scroll. But it does <i>not</i> include combat items that weren't really in use before the character died. Finally, you stake any item which you are under a roleplay imperative to take from them (i.e., your god will strike you down if you don't take it, so that's a risk of being involved).

Of your own items, you staked anything that they have previously taken from you, as well as anything they would have a roleplay imperative to take from you, but nothing else. (You are not staking your own combat equipment because those would-be stakes are balanced by the advantages the equipment gives you in combat.) For every one of your own items that you staked (and these should be few and far between), you may take any one of their inventory items in addition to those items of theirs (previously listed) that you staked by risking combat with them.

Furthermore, I think Seantryn Modan must be destroyed.

Carrion fields would cease to be carrion fields if you implemented that.

nt

-I'd rather be the sheath to a sword than the bullets to a gun-

Because taking something out of a corpse you made, by YOUR logic, is STEALING FROM YOU. LOL. PWNT.

All criminals must be removed of there weapons according to the rules laid down in the Spire. Don't like it? Don't become a criminal. I didn't steal them from you, you broke the laws, your fault, not mine. No one whines more than a criminal that comes back and there is nothing gone but weapons and coins.

>But if I want to (be a ####) I can sacrifice them all to my Unholy Shovel god.

This is the issue right here. People don't generally accuse me of "stealing" their stuff if I loot something after having killed them. But should I decide to sac stuff and "be a ####" (your words) then they might call me out on it. Namely, being a ####.

Their stuff is yours once you kill them. True. What you do with it determines whether you're a ####.

nt

"Their stuff is yours once you kill them. True. What you do with it determines whether you're a ####."

Whether YOU think I'm a #### or not, is entirely up to you, and
has no bearing what I feel, I want to do, with MY stuff. Hell, I've
had characters that had a thing with shiny objects, and would stash
a dragons stockpile of gear in secret places (this would only last
until a reboot obviously) and simply go to my stockpile if I died,
needed weapons, or something to barter with.


This is a point I'm trying to make on the other boards as well.

It's not who's a ####, and who's not. Looting is IC, but the whiny
reactions and OOC slander, is not.

If you want to make an OOC personal issue with someone because
their Character didn't share any of his items with you, after killing
you or even stumbling up on your corpse, that's your problem, and it's also your right to become enemies, and/or return the favor.


It's not your right to whine until I flip on ignore, then whine at
imms how mongoose is ####, then slander active characters on
the dio's website trying to get back at them OOC, rather than
fight them IC.

These people piss me off, and when they go off on their tangents over an item or two, or a kill that they didn't think should have happened, you can bet your ass I am going to be ten times as ruthless
the second go around. Am I posting on the forums hear-say to
ruin your character? No, I'm just going to kill you.

>Whether YOU think I'm a #### or not, is entirely up to you, and
>has no bearing what I feel, I want to do, with MY stuff.

What can I say, you're a sociopath? I take other peoples' enjoyment into account.

>It's not your right to whine until I flip on ignore, then whine at
>imms how mongoose is ####, then slander active characters on
>the dio's website trying to get back at them OOC, rather
>than fight them IC.

I tend to agree with this. OOC tells and whiney prays are always bad, no matter how bad someone got screwed in game. Character assassination on Dio's is also lame. Of course, that someone handles it poorly doesn't mean you weren't still a #### to them.

> These people piss me off, and when they go off on their
>tangents over an item or two, or a kill that they didn't think
>should have happened, you can bet your ass I am going to be
>ten times as ruthless the second go around.

Me too. See above, re: OOC tells. If someone does that crap to me, they're getting the full sac next time. And you better bet I'm going to gun for that person in preference to other PK targets.

Oddly, though, I rarely get those sort of tells. Why? Becuase I'm not a #### to people.

Don't misunderstand that I'm advocating being a jerk. I'm not.

I think that for the most part in CF you follow the rule of do unto others as you would have done unto you. People have different thresholds when it comes to looting, I know - but mostly I'm here for everyone to have a good time playing - win or lose. So if I know someone is leaving my gear and making a point to do that, I know that's probably someone who is going to get upset if I don't do the same. Most of the time I'm going to go out of my way a little to accommodate them, even though I don't particularly care about getting looted.

And yes, if you whine to me you are going to piss me off immensely and I'm going to multi killing you and full saccing your #### to teach you a lesson.

Some 14 years ago my first hero was a storm giant trouper, and somehow because he hung around a transmuter a lot the ragers decided to slaughter him and full sac about twice an hour. I never whined about it. Basically any time anyone leaves anything in my corpse, I'm happy.

And while I'm ranting... if you feel like an extra 20 on your hit/dam or WHATEVER it is makes you THAT much more competitive you are teh sucks. I can't tell you how many PK's I've gotten with outfit gear. I only need uber gear to hang with the Ravons of the world.

I have no problems at all with people taking what they want from my corpse should they win in a pk - they did something to earn it. But I will respect a player more (if at all), if they only took what they needed.

Now if a player killed me in a way I think unfair or annoying (for example, jumping on me just because I'm convulsing to get +1 pk), I'd get really pissed even if he didn't touch anything.

It's probably not even about looting or leaving stuff, but more of player to player attitude.

~

I think most people that play CF forget that there are other actual humans at the other end of these characters. They need to have fun, too. You need to help them have fun. That's the nature of the game.

By saccing #### for no reason, you're preventing them from having fun, with no actual gain to yourself. In doing so, you're potentially driving players away which will in turn lessen the fun that YOU have.

All it does is making other people suffer now, so you'll have the chance to suffer later.

Why bother?

*If they deserve it for whatever reason, that's another thing and I'm not even discussing that situation.

I might annoy you, but I'm actually starting to enjoy you.

>I think most people that play CF forget that there are other
>actual humans at the other end of these characters. They need
>to have fun, too. You need to help them have fun. That's the
>nature of the game.

Agreed.

>
>By saccing #### for no reason, you're preventing them from
>having fun, with no actual gain to yourself. In doing so,
>you're potentially driving players away which will in turn
>lessen the fun that YOU have.

Agreed. I'm not making a statement as to whether or not it's a good idea to full sac someone, only that I have a right to do whatever I want with any part of the items in their corpse.

>*If they deserve it for whatever reason, that's another thing
>and I'm not even discussing that situation.

Agreed.

I'm just tired of people acting like they have full rights of ownership to the crap in their corpse.

Sure, you have to right to do what you like with the stuff.

But if you sac it all just to make life miserable, I would say that you are abusing that right and damaging the game by driving people away.

In addition, people won't take risks if you keep saccing their stuff. They will wait until they have a massive gang, take you out, and sac yours. That's hardly beneficial for the game either.

And I tell you what. If someone kills my friend and takes his stuff, I will consider that stuff stolen. I will not think "well, my friend was dead, so it wasn't really his stuff any more".

I don't play the game to be a jerk, I don't get a kick out of making other peoples lives misery, and I've never full-sacced anyone. To Stunna's original point, if I took something out of our corpse, I had a reason - whether it was to sell your item, investigate something I've never seen before, upgrade my own gear, heal with what I took whatever.

But now, I'd say at least around 40% of the time I take ANYTHING from a corpse, I have to deal with listening to an absurd amount of whining.

But if someone does whine too much, I will tell them that they've reached the point where if they continue I will kill them again.

Like sometimes I'm low on money and I'll take a bunch of #### out of the corpse to sell it, especially if you're some character that attacked me first and I have no RP reason to really give a crap about you. What I REALLY get REALLY REALLY tired of REALLY fast is when characters come to me like... "Are you going to keep this and this? You can't even use it" or "Why did you take this out of my corpse?" or "You did THIS?!?! I'm going to do the same thing next time!"

It gets so bad I took something from one guy's corpse and he dropped all his #### and sacced it and told me that's what he was going to do to me next time. It's hella annoying. I mean it's cool to ask I don't mind but too many people act like you're OBLIGATED to give/leave them certain things and that only makes me MORE inclined to full sac them the next time (which I never do because I'm too lazy to make a macro for it lol).

-I'd rather be the sheath to a sword than the bullets to a gun-

sd

We could eliminate looting completely, or restrict pk to the arena only. I'd leave and I think the playerbase would plummet if that were done. The fact that I might lose everything is part of what makes me want to participate in PK.

So, what's fun? I accept that watching someone sac all your gear just because they can, isn't. But the fact that they might is a component of the fun for me. Take away the risk, and you have WoW pvp where you keep running headlong into suicides until your gear is destroyed. It's one of the reasons I think people who brag about winning inn duels (yes, I've met a couple) just utterly moronic.

Again, perhaps since I generally win more than I die, dealing with the whining when I loot a corpse, detracts from the fun for me far often than losing all my gear.

I find that the whining doesn't detract from my enjoyment. It makes me a little angry. The positive side effect of that is that I now have a character who I totally want to destroy. Not just, "I'm a maran and that guy's evil, so RP dictates I should kill him." More like, "I want to multi-kill that guy until he deletes.".

Killing a character who's been douchey to me in the past is SO much more gratifying than killing some random guy for RP reasons.

If I flipped a coin each time I killed you, and full sacced or left everything depending on how it landed, I doubt you would fight me much if I tended to win.

Is this fair to say?

At the same time, full loots are partly responsible for why people are such jackasses about fighting - ie "I only fight when the odds are significantly in my favor" and "I full loot you to punish you".

Yeah, looting makes for some of the interesting moments in the game but it also makes for some of the lousiest.