As I was chatting with another CF player, the subject of griefers and lowbie looters came up. Of course, these behaviors make a lot of players very upset because they end up being killed/full looted/full sacced by these pricks who have hero gear on useless low-level throwaway characters that they use specifically, it seems, to make decent people's lives miserable. Apart from mob deaths, in my 5 year CF experience, I've found that PK related issues are the biggest source of frustration for me and probably for many others, especially those who are new to the game. Do we lose those new players because problems like these make the game too frustrating to bother with? I don't know.

Anyway, during the course of the conversation, a couple points came up, and we agreed that perhaps, with their implementation, the overpowered over-decked lowbie griefer problem could be solved. These are meant to be alternatives to prevent as much of this behavior as possible, rather than having to seek out griefer players and punish them individually.

1. Make characters unable to loot PC corpses until level 30: I realized almost immediately that this solution is horrible and flawed, but if it appeals to anyone, perhaps suggestions could be made to improve it.

2. Make gear usability level dependent: I anticipate this taking a lot of coding effort to balance well, but it would completely eliminate "Hey look at me I looted a PK'ed hero and now I have sweet gear that makes me totally overpowered for my level." In addition, to prevent people from hoarding gear to use much later when they get to the appropriate level, it could be made so that the equipment that was, say, 5 or more levels above the holder gets purged when they log off (much like limited gear in the hands of a sub-11 character). I have seen something similar implemented on another mud a long time ago (possibly Aardwolf?).

Well, that's what came up. Thoughts, suggestions, alternatives?

Remove 'get all corpse' from PC corpse-looting, and implement a certain amount of lag per piece taken, depending on the level difference between looter and lootee? Obviously heroes can pick and choose what they want with little lag, while the lvl 11 guy spamming 'get 1. corpse' is going to be limited (and vulnerable to others in his pk) by the lag associated with looting items.

>1. Make characters unable to loot PC corpses until level 30:
>I realized almost immediately that this solution is horrible
>and flawed, but if it appeals to anyone, perhaps suggestions
>could be made to improve it.

I can't see this ever happening. CF wouldn't be CF anymore.

>2. Make gear usability level dependent: I anticipate this
>taking a lot of coding effort to balance well, but it would
>completely eliminate "Hey look at me I looted a PK'ed hero and
>now I have sweet gear that makes me totally overpowered for my
>level." In addition, to prevent people from hoarding gear to
>use much later when they get to the appropriate level, it
>could be made so that the equipment that was, say, 5 or more
>levels above the holder gets purged when they log off (much
>like limited gear in the hands of a sub-11 character). I have
>seen something similar implemented on another mud a long time
>ago (possibly Aardwolf?).

Easy to implement, but not, I think, a good idea. CF just isn't that kind of game. It's already true that lower level characters don't get full damage out of higher level weapons, and a lot of the scarier progged gear ratchets down to scale a bit for lower levels. This is as much as I think should happen in this department.

All that being said, I think there's little incentive currently for a level 11 to not try to spam past a hero's corpseguard -- it's little risk for potentially very high reward. This is something Valg and I have talked about and may change at some point -- but were that done I probably wouldn't be inclined to change anything else re: looting for a long while.

1. Let everyone learn Territorial (the super corpseguard edge for Orcs)
2. Make the corpseguard kick do damage - so you may risk it, but a boot to the face could do a MUTILATE or something and prone you.

I like number 2.

As in, its really hard for a level 1 character to loot a corpse being guarded by a level 51 character, versus say, a level 30 versus level 51. Would make it more difficult for those lowbie looters to get more versus the level 30 people.

Just curious, unless it works this way already.

Krathreal

It basically does, but in most cases, there's little incentive to not TRY to beat it.

What about if when the person guarding the corpse knocks you back, there is a chance that you fall and hit your head and are knocked out for an hour or two. A weak blackjack if you will. Doesn't cause you actual damage but nobody really wants to lay knocked out in Galadon or the Eastern.

We had a number of ideas. I don't have the notes in front of me right now, but most of them were along those lines -- things that didn't directly damage you, but might make you think twice or impose a penalty for trying enough times.

As a hero, I hate getting looted by people I can't personally kill, but I LIKE knowing that lowbies don't get full use out of weapons.

If this extended to hit/dam/stats/saves & progs, there would be much less incentive for vultures to vulch and it would be easier for other lowbies to slay the vulture.

Look at that completely stacked individual like a Lich. Get a group together and take him down. Then spread his things amongest yourselves. Yes that person will whine and bitch that you had to gang them and you stripped them naked, but atleast you will not have to deal with them anymore. Who says that you can only gang people at hero to take down that overly powerful person?

There are plenty of muds that don't let you use an item because you aren't high enough. It isn't realistic. If I find the stick of beating, I want to beat someone with it or at least try. Instead, it was decided that the level of the weapon in comparison to the level of the player requires some finesse. So, the stick of beating is not as good in the level 11 guy's hands as it is in the level 30 guy's hands.

Another thing. We are all for gear changing hands a lot. A few things have been implemented so that the players can choose whether or not to help their fallen victim keep some of their gear, like corpseguard and no sub 11's looting from corpses at all. Yes, level 11 punk running up and down eastern road looking for a hero to loot is annoying. And usually, those who are found to be doing that just to do it are noted as that type of player and the imms can choose to ignore them from the good fun stuff at the higher levels if they choose. But, more times than not, that player gets killed an looted too. And that means the gear got passed to someone else. And that is what gear is supposed to do. Get passed around.

I would be completely against these types of changes you propose.

In your opinion, what is a better way to deal with griefer characters and keep newbies from quitting out of frustration? It seems unrealistic to expect the Imms to punish these characters individually. I'm not saying the corpseguard and no pre-11 looting changes weren't good ones, but I keep hearing of upset players/characters having to deal with this kind of BS, so it leads me to believe that JUST those changes haven't been enough.

Part of the point I was making is that the general consensus is that the gear changing hands is good for the game overall. Sure, some people don't like taking shots to get the penicillin they need, but, they feel better later on for taking it. A small amount of pain for a good amount of healing.

Edited part:

The reason why this makes sense is this. You died. Your corpse has your gear. Reality shows that the first person who gets your gear gets to keep it. It is no longer your gear. If you get there first and there is something left and you get that, that is your gear and your gear only. All the more reason not to die.

I was thinking about this... because lowbie looters have always been a hot topic. I was going to make the comment that if SO many people are SO frustrated by this, maybe it is worth thinking about alleviating the severity. Although not one of my personal hot buttons it does seem like something that hurts the appeal of CF for some players.

But what I wonder, really, is it that your mad at losing - not so much mad at losing your gear? Maybe a certain kind of person is not able to say, "I'm mad I got beat!" and needs to say, "Lowbie looterz are gay!"

I really don't know. I'm just thinking that if you DID find a way around peoples looting woes, would you end up with the same death-related complaints manifesting in another area of whinery?

This was really more why I was making the suggestions I did. I don't want to prevent gear circulation at all, but from the complaints I keep seeing, it seems like there are a lot of players frustrated by circumstances that COULD be changed. I don't think we should be losing newbies because they've been made to feel it's impossible for them to compete.

The looter takes on a 48 hour flag and enters the range of whomevers body they just looted.

Everyone in the range would suddenly notice....

who pk

(12 War) Pip the warrior
51 Bar Bagpipeboy the bagpiper
51 Shf Jerimiah the shapeshifter.


It would give a negative aspect to looting. The poor bastard could still do it, but the entire range would be gunning for the little bastard.

Although I don't personally mind looting, I just get pissed off with the rank 11 tools that go from cabal to cabal and do nothing but wait for people.

Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.

n/t

I'd roll an off/air shifter specifically for the sole purpose of repeatedly killing lowbie looters as soon as they unghosted.

If the flag wears off by your first death, you'd see the looter go g all corpse; c word; suicide.

If the flag doesn't wear off on your first death... everyone and his mother would have an uncaballed gnome off/air shifter alt characters designed solely to take full sac revenge on the guys who looted him. Looters would g all corpse; c teleport; drop link and log on a few hours later to idle in organia or someplace.

Not that I think this is a bad thing. I'm all for discouraging lowbie looting by whatever means possible. But the imm perspective is that more gear circulation is always a good thing. And while I'm not sure I agree with it, I see where they're coming from.

>The looter takes on a 48 hour flag and enters the range of
>whomevers body they just looted.

So if a Hero looted a level 11 guy, they get to go rape the low-levels? Yeah, that sounds reasonable.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

I'm a level 20 thief.

Hero A kills Hero B in front of me. This is a close fight and Hero A is now convulsing.

I get coins from Hero B's corpse, knife Hero A once and kill him, and get whichever loot I want from both. I'm in hero range for 48 more ticks, but good luck finding and killing me before that's over if you're either hero. I certainly can quit before you unghost (and it's not reasonable to make someone stay on another half hour no matter what).

> I'm a level 20 thief.

> Hero A kills Hero B in front of me. This is a close fight and Hero A is now convulsing.

> I get coins from Hero B's corpse, knife Hero A once and kill him, and get whichever loot I want from both. I'm in hero range for 48 more ticks, but good luck finding and killing me before that's over if you're either hero. I certainly can quit before you unghost (and it's not reasonable to make someone stay on another half hour no matter what).

1) Thief only enters hero B's range, but stays there until hero B kills thief.

2) Thief enters both A and B's range, but not until 2 ticks has passed from the looting (IC that could be latency for word to reach the gods). That gives A ample time to get out of dodge if he wants to. Thief stays in A's range until A kills thief or vice versa. Same applies between B and Thief. This can sometimes work in thief's favor, but most of the time it won't. And even if thief has time to steal stuff and leave, without A having the option to instantly bash them, that's no worse than it is today.

(Edit: I think the above would be fun, even though I don't have much of a problem with lowbie looting anyway.)

And I figured that was what we were all refering to.

No I would not advocate heros dropping to the lowbies range.

Again, I think gear dispersal is good. Lowbie griefer are annoying.

Lets all use some common sense here....

Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.

>And I figured that was what we were all refering to.
>
>No I would not advocate heros dropping to the lowbies range.
>
>Again, I think gear dispersal is good. Lowbie griefer are
>annoying.
>
>Lets all use some common sense here....

No offense, but your solution lacks common sense then. You made (what I took as) a blanket suggestion for how to solve the problem, and I poked a hole in it without even having to think.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

No offense, but your solution lacks common sense then.

-None taken. Misunderstandings happen.

Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.

Personally I would still try to loot as a lowbie. I just couldn't do it after someone noticed if it pissed them off. Feels reasonably to me.

Also means that out of pk chars cannot always save people's gear.

I would extend this as follows:
- if a lowbie talks smack to a hero, and an imm notices, they apply this same flag. This would stop lowbies talking smack to people that can kill them in an instant. On the downside, you'd probably have level 25 APs talking smack to Waris and spamming cleave in the hope that an imm brings them into each other's pk.