Just curious as to how the shapeshifter is supposed to deal with the toned down offensive forms. Ive tried my ram against dex builds, strength builds, even an Imperial Shaman. The shaman was parrying my blows more than he was being hit. I know I am no true PK expert, but I've been playing this game long enough to know that that shouldnt be happening. Another point I wanted to mention, was the fact that my snake, with greater REGEN hardly REGENS at all if I am protected by my rods, which makes it practically worthless, these things do not aid in game balance at all, simply make it easier for those few uber players to rack up high Pk counts.

On paper the offensive forms are good. However, the problem is we have a small player base and you will be playing agaisnt a small subset of more skilled players at hero. Get used to having ABS and other protections every fight. Even then it is not the 'Instant Win' button and you will lose more than you win.

JUst keep moving and go for quick bursts of damage and surprise attacks. Raids and counterraids allow people to prep.

Offensive forms do miss alot agaisnt melee classes. They will destroy mage classes, or those without all the defensive capabilities. Just know that you wont be winning agaisnt villagers, bards, rangers, and most warrior builds.

You will be rocking out thieves, transmuters, and the like.

It does suck when you are in a group with a warrior who is out hitting and damaging your offensive form while learning, but thems the breaks.

If you think offensive forms are bad...Try playing one of the 'revamped' water forms. You will get outmeleed in your domain as well. ANd thats with ABS

Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.

Dude, Walrus still rapes faces off.

I fought a hippo that ####ing destroyed me, on land at that.

I do agree that the manta I saw in logs sucked ass. Not sure what water forms you've had, and I've never once chosen water as a foci with four shifters now, so I really can't argue with you (also, you play the best shifter).

I think what Lightmage is trying to say is the same point I was trying to make:We know there are great forms for every foci, all quite capable and useful, some even scary, but if you dont luck up and get those certain few you dont a stand a chance in PK, no matter how well prepared you are. Should a hero shifter in the offensive focus know for certain, before he ever starts fighting, that if he gets nicked by a dagger spec artery, or hurl, hes gonna lose? I mean I truly wish I had logged a couple of my fights with the Ram, because I was basically raped. It just seems like a lot of hard work to end with the luck of the draw. Not saying all forms should be uber-powerful, but they should at least have a chance of winning.

>Just curious as to how the shapeshifter is supposed to deal
>with the toned down offensive forms.

Luckily I wasn't drinking anything carbonated when I read this, else there would be a burning sensation as it shot out my nose.

"Toned down" are you ####ing kidding me? Every single offense form got an upgrade to "damage output per round" when they were revamped.

>Another
>point I wanted to mention, was the fact that my snake, with
>greater REGEN hardly REGENS at all if I am protected by my
>rods, which makes it practically worthless, these things do
>not aid in game balance at all, simply make it easier for
>those few uber players to rack up high Pk counts.

Regen + Dam redux spells you don't know how to cast will reduce their effectiveness. Has been that way for a very long time.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Thats odd then, because I an a few others have noted that the forms dont seem to hit as hard as before, been playing here for about four years now, and I know I've seen rams throw multiple oblits in the past, against creatures that werent weak against blunt attacks, mine barely manages a demolish. But the amount of damage isnt the issue, its the ability to hit anyone. As for the question about trying it against someone not good at parrying, a duegar shaman wielding an axe isnt supposed to be good at parrying, last I checked. I may be the only one to speak on this, but I have heard ALOT of shifters bitching and moaning over the new offensive forms. If you dont get tiger, or wolverine, your screwed as far as PK goes, and thats a fact. My ram can destroy mobs, but anything faster than a tortoise can dodge or parry it easily, PC wise. As for the healing issue, I know that rods prevent healing from outside sources, such as healers or Archons, but even the Antipathy commune doesnt prevent Regen, perhaps something to look at, otherwise what good is the snake, I cant fight in ram form without the rods, need the snake to heal, but it wont because Ive used the rods on the ram. I wish I would have logged my fight with Tirka, in eight rounds of combat my ram didnt hit her once, other than its butting, a dagger wielding arial I know and fast, but offensive forms are supposed to be just that, offensive.

I'll tell you how I see the problem, wether its just me or not I dont know, but something seems a bit off. A warrior I play with a hit roll of twenty five, has no problem striking Tirka, of course her underhands hurt alot, but the ram with a hitroll nearly twice that of the warrior cant strike her. Am I the only one that sounds odd to? Given after a few rounds she has maledicted me quite a lot with those daggers, but in those few rounds it takes for her to do so shouldnt I be pounding the hell out of her?

>Am I
>the only one that sounds odd to?

Probably not, but everyone who thinks it sounds odd doesn't really understand how any of it works.

I've had Dire Wolf, and it's ####ing awesome. Lion is insane if you know wands. Ram is just so ####ing good and you trashing it is making me laugh. I heard people bitch/delete because they got wolverine, FWIW.

Try not using ALL your rods. I know I've fought a bunch without barrier (I usually wouldn't ever fight without any dam redux, though there were occasions) with two seperate shifters since the revamp. At Hero. Against leaders/badasses. I haven't always won, but they never steam-rolled me (well, Kostyan did after we fought round three of a epic set of battles, but by that time Striking had built up and I was an idiot).

And even with full ABS, your regen form can still keep you alive when you're really hurt and would otherwise die. Which is mostly what I used it for when I was ABS'd.

You keep saying how wrong I am, but that doesnt change the fact that the ram isnt hitting anyone. I fought Jhengar after that last post, axe wielding svirfnebli, he never even bothered to whirl me, so no maledicts, and I still couldnt hit him. Instead of kissing ass to the immortals, whom I appreciate, and who do a fine job of running this place, why can we not focus on the fact. The dire wolf yes is nasty, I actually thought it was a quest form, as Ive only ever seen one and that Sletren, the lion and tiger alright in PK, the wolverine as well, the rhino, the grizzly, the ram, worthless in fighting others, no way around that fact. If its possible, perhaps someone could find the PK numbers of shifters using those forms, and I am sure it will prove me right.

I had the ram with my first shifter after the offensive revamp and I loved the form. I have also since had the dire wolf, which the same character had lion too. I liked dire wolf least of the three but he had his strengths in certain fights. Is your second attack skill practiced? It really helps if it is, especially with ram. The ram charges so I think is dodged easier than parried but I cannot fathom why you think it so poor. With ram/diamondback I would solo raid the tribs with little worry and fought successfully with many race/class builds.

Keep going with it and prac second attack if not already done so.

-----Abernyte

"I may be the only one to speak on this, but I have heard ALOT of shifters bitching and moaning over the new offensive forms."

If other people are upset, they can tell us. If it's you, speak for yourself.

I know I've seen rams throw multiple oblits in the past, against creatures that werent weak against blunt attacks, mine barely manages a demolish.

They deal more damage than they used to. I'm not sure what else you want Zulgh to tell you.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I simply speak what others may be afraid to for fear of pissing you guys off, but what I say is the truth. I am still waiting for a logical answer answer to my question? Why a warrior with a hitroll of 25 can hit someone, and a shifter with a hitroll of 46 cant? All I've gotten from this post is some smart ass comment from the Mohican, which looking over the posts I see is his norm, to agree with whatever the Imms say, and now a rebuke from yourself. This is a legitimate question, and I am curious as to why no one seems to want to answer it.

Why a warrior with a hitroll of 25 can hit someone, and a shifter with a hitroll of 46 cant?

Largely because you're dealing with dodge/parry, and hitroll deals with armor deflection.

Edit: And how often you "miss".

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I'm not sure if this is or isn't already the case, but it seems logical to me that shifter forms would be a lot harder to parry, in general, than other classes in melee.

Prime example: Ram. You'd be parrying the whole body of a 350lb+ animal charging at you. I don't think that's really possible, or at least not plausible. Inversely, speedy predators, such as snakes, lizards, cats, and birds should be a bitch to dodge as their reflexes are probably better than any normal race, and they will just "track" your movement and follow.

With that in mind, those forms that encompass both strength and speed (lions) should be especially hard to avoid.

>I'm not sure if this is or isn't already the case, but it
>seems logical to me that shifter forms would be a lot harder
>to parry, in general, than other classes in melee.

Some are! How much varies.

And Valg wrong...urm, rightly (got to keep up appearances) deletes them.

Also, you all seem to think I am complaining of the damage output, the Ram hits quite hard, no problem, but it cant hit anything faster than a tortoise, big problem.

Also, you all seem to think I am complaining of the damage output

I quoted the sentence where you claim it decreased sharply vs. a few years ago. This sentence is presumably why responders are pointing out that per Zulgh, damage was increased.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

So hitroll has no affect on how often you hit? Thats new to me, and if not then my question still stands, why cant the ram hit any PC faster than a tortoise? It destroys mobs, granted, but it cant hit other Players worth a damn.

What rank are you in comparison to these enemies? If you are like 5-6-more ranks below them then YES your going to have a much harder time dealing with them. Forms grow in strength as you rank, or another way to look at it is that both sets of fighting abilities of you and opponent just got closer.

*big stupid question* Have you practiced second attack?

*another big stupid question* Are you confident with the form?

*yet another big stupid question* have you tried different greater enlivens?

*final big stupid question* How long have you been fighting these enemies, as in how many times has this held true and how many times have you managed to boneshatter and completely tool an opponent?

Final comment is: Sometimes RNG is a supreme BIT*H so you may have to deal with it for a lil while.

>Also, you all seem to think I am complaining of the damage
>output, the Ram hits quite hard, no problem, but it cant hit
>anything faster than a tortoise, big problem.

I think you are complaining that an offensive form got toned down (and the majority of what an offensive form is, is pure damage output, which was upgraded for all offensive forms). So next time I suggest you define what you mean by "toned down" so we aren't all makign our own guess as to what you are referring.

Your complaint is how often it actually hits things, and you have a bunch of control over that as other folks have pointed out (second attack, ability with the form, etc). You also get to deal with a lot of things like parry, dodge, shield block, evade, which are out of your control and affect everyone. As far as I remember, very little has changed with regards to how often forms in general hit.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Where were you?

Few random thoughts:

1. How skilled are you in your form? Pretty sure that significantly affects its offensive output.

2. Were you str maledicted? Pretty sure that significantly reduces offensive output.

3. Have you tried it against classes like invokers, etc. that don't parry very well? Supposedly that's its strong point.