Well, since the discussion is quite big on QHCF right now, why not bring it here instead and maybe get some IMM input?


Discuss


Personally I liked this idead by Treebeard.


"That's a good thing. People don't need tribs to babysit them..

I could see justifying removing the wanted flag for the duration of the scales being gone, and then having it back when the scales are retrieved.

Why? Because the powers of the scales aren't in effect, so guards everywhere don't know that Joe Firegiant just raped and killed 10 elfs. I think if could make sense. "

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

First off, losing of the WANTED flag: How can you, RP wise, justify the flag goes away because either the Scales are gone or the one that placed the flag is killed? If the cop arresting you dies, does that mean you can go free? That makes no sense at all. Just because you kill the chief of police (Executioner) suddenly now everyone else forgets who is now a criminal? Those ideas do not make RP sense. Come up with a RP justification that makes sense, then we'll talk.

Second, Ability to call guards: Ok, I have thought about this a bit. Maybe, if you do not have the Scales, the guards will not come as quickly or they are the "B" shift guards and not as powerful. The more Powerful guards have been stationed at key areas of the city because of this "Time of Chaos" and can not be used or something. I can agree with that.

Third, Ability to place a wanted flag: Some Tribs already do lose this ability when the Scales are gone. But you also have to remember, It is a Trib's JOB (as people like to yell at tribs when they claim to be attacked) to watch the cities and protect them. Removing the ability to mark criminals doesn't make much RP sense to me seeing as they could just write missives and mark them later.

Fourth, and most important: No other Cabal takes as much crap about what they should be doing and where they should be. The Fort may be asked if they can come and help someone trapped, etc true. But name one other cabal that has people yelling at them "You need to be in Galadon Now!" or "I know he is about to attack me, and if you don't come and protect me, it will be your fault!" Who cares if I am in the middle of exploring some cool new place I have never seen before. Who cares if I am already in a battle with someone else. It is my fault that I was not there. If for no other reason that this, Tribs need to keep what they already have. If not give them a little more incentive than the little bit of money they earn being on duty.

That is all

** Disclaimer: If they already lose vigilance then ignore this whole thread because I honestly cannot remember if they do or dont. For some reason i dont believe they lose it **


Since its correlated to the scales it should be removed. Does it suck for the tribunal? Yes. Sure they can still call guards and issue warrants BUT now they actually have to be scouting their city and taking risks in their flagging. Bad moves and you'll be booted. That gives them great incentive to retrieve so they can do their jobs with more ease.

With their vigilance lowered because they dont want to get the scales really dampers the whole purpose of that chars intentions(or what they want you to believe) as a magistrate of the tribunal. It should give that everyday magistrate a lot more reason to retrieve.

CraftedDeception

That said, with an evil tribunal, I still wouldn't retrieve, but I'd probably also get booted for bad flags eventually.

The WANTED flag is critical to upholding laws, because Tribunal players are only allowed to act within very rigid boundaries. If all the wanted flags suddenly blink off the radar, those boundaries disappear and the Tribunal is left in ####ville trying to maintain their own legality. I've got no problems with it being easier for criminals to get about when the Scales are gone (And hell, isn't it already easier when your strongest enemies powers are all disabled?) but making wanted flags disappear in any way, shape or form is not a good idea. It also stinks of generally bad roleplay, the way many have suggested it. I like ideas that stem from sense-making and move into balancing, not ones that generally stem from wanted power-gaming and then hussle backwards to find a sensible rp base. And it's obvious many of the crew pushing for Warrant removal have come from the latter direction, not the former.

Yhorian

" If all the wanted flags suddenly blink off the
radar, those boundaries disappear and the Tribunal is left in
####ville trying to maintain their own legality. "

Kind of like how non-ranger outlanders are left in ####ville trying to maintain their own vitality?

I'm not sure anyone has come up with the right answer, but saying Justiciar/Vindi lose their powers when the scales are taken is like saying that sunwarden/nightreaver/harbinger lose insects when the scales are taken (but nothing else). Sure, it makes certain characters less dangerous, but it doesn't affect the overall cabal in any meaningful way. If I ever play another evil Tribunal, the chances of my ever even attempting to retreive the scales are exactly zero. Will I become a Vindi/Justiciar that way? Probably not. Will it at impact my ability to be a magistrate? Not in the slightest. I can still flag criminals and call guards. My job is being done. Why risk my life to recover something I don't even need? The paladins of the spire can do that.

Tribunals are forced to stay in a small area, are titled publically when on duty and rely completely on making people WANTED in order to act appropriately while restricted in this way.

Outlanders have free run of most of the mud. They don't rely on chameleon (unless they plain suck) and keep their base survival powers.

Saying 'oh, well just Tribunal leaders get hurt' is ridiculous. Tribunals lose ALL powers by walking outside the city - assuming they HAD any powers after walking out. Which most don't. Does that seem fair to you?

Sure doesn't to me. But that's the way it's balanced - and the reason why Tribunals will still have some advantage in that small area even without their scales. They've still lost a helluva lot of power - pillars, manacles, etc. won't work. And if forcing them to sit in one area with full knowledge of if and when they're present wasn't handicap enough, that certainly is.

So lets unbias this comparison, and look at it frankly. The only time there is a 'fair fight' between Outlanders and Tribunal, is when the Tribunal fights the Outlander outside the city while holding the fetish. And if anyone is likely to have the advantage in that situation, it's outlanders. Not Tribunal. Do you still think you need to nerf magistrates more than they are crippled?

Yhorian

Edit: As a counter to the ridiculous bias of that statement, how about if when the Fetish is taken, all Tribunals get the ability to detect when the Outlander is in a forest, and which forest it is? Better yet, if the Tribunal starts slaughtering forest creatures, the Outlander is duty bound to come running to the rescue AND is announced when they arrive. Would that be cool?

>Tribunals are forced to stay in a small area, are titled
>publically when on duty and rely completely on making people
>WANTED in order to act appropriately while restricted in this
>way.

They aren't forced to stay in a small area any more than outlanders are forced to stay in wilderness. There is some minimum amount to get inducted for outlander, and to stay in for trib, but it's hardly the camping most people (on both sides) do. You also seem to forget that it isn't like Tribunal's have to sit at Market Square. Guild sitting gives them plenty of time to prep/run/warrent/guardcall/etc before a potential threat can reach them.

>Outlanders have free run of most of the mud. They don't rely
>on chameleon (unless they plain suck) and keep their base
>survival powers.

Base survival powers being the all powerful get food and water? Something no one else over the 20th rank even considers? Yes, there is a level where you aren't really relying on chameleon to stay alive, but most players aren't at that level. Having severely limited access to basic preps (fly, enlarge, reduce, teleport, word) coupled with nearly zero access to a healer (and certainly not at your recall point) and no way to hide is a very significant impact on the survivability of an outlander. Losing the ability to manacle? Hardly the same impact. I'm not even going to mention the hastle of not having pathfinding and being wanted which leads to either A) lots of resting for moves at levels you generally don't have to do that anymore, or B) dealing with random guards attacking you. I'd say it's very similar to losing insects. No real change to your base survival, but you are slightly less deadly.

>Saying 'oh, well just Tribunal leaders get hurt' is
>ridiculous. Tribunals lose ALL powers by walking outside the
>city - assuming they HAD any powers after walking out. Which
>most don't. Does that seem fair to you?

Yes. They also have nearly zero restrictions on their behavior outside of cities. They are free to join up with the imperial gank squad, or go mudsexxor with fort kids, or whatever the hell else they want to do. I don't even consider the Justiciar/Vidication positions, since the are usually unfilled. The fact they lose their powers outside the city sans scales is the only conceivable reason I can think of for a non-self sacrificing character to even attempt a retrieval of the scales if there is any chance of a defense.

>Sure doesn't to me. But that's the way it's balanced - and the
>reason why Tribunals will still have some advantage in that
>small area even without their scales. They've still lost a
>helluva lot of power - pillars, manacles, etc. won't work. And
>if forcing them to sit in one area with full knowledge of if
>and when they're present wasn't handicap enough, that
>certainly is.

They lost insects and town gate. They still get to sit behind guards and guildguards and (here is the important part) DO THEIR JOB.

>So lets unbias this comparison, and look at it frankly. The
>only time there is a 'fair fight' between Outlanders and
>Tribunal, is when the Tribunal fights the Outlander outside
>the city while holding the fetish. And if anyone is likely to
>have the advantage in that situation, it's outlanders. Not
>Tribunal. Do you still think you need to nerf magistrates more
>than they are crippled?

I'm sorry, which pk specific skill is it that makes outlander vs tribunal so unfair? Is it beast call? All powerful it's not. Every other outlander power is designed to overcome their handicaps. Kind of like a rager. Is the only time a mage vs rager fight fair when they fight outside the village and the rager doesn't have the head? No? Yes, you can overcome those things which are just that much more difficult for an outlander than for any other character, but at the expense of gobs of time. Pretty difficult to be a pill popping prep whore when you can't buy a damn thing.

>Yhorian
>
>Edit: As a counter to the ridiculous bias of that statement,
>how about if when the Fetish is taken, all Tribunals get the
>ability to detect when the Outlander is in a forest, and which
>forest it is? Better yet, if the Tribunal starts slaughtering
>forest creatures, the Outlander is duty bound to come running
>to the rescue AND is announced when they arrive. Would that be
>cool?

Tribunal may be duty bound to come, but they aren't duty bound to come and die. I have some bias, but I've played both. Playing a successful tribunal magistrate is a cake walk compared to playing a successful outlander. Hell, Jinroh's gnome did it without ever practicing a skill. Try that on an outlander some time and have fun con dying from hunger and thirst.

for why tribs should lose powers when the scales are gone. If they don't lose much of anything, what is the point of retrieving? If nothing else there could be a tiered power loss with tribs. First 100 hours would be how it is currently. For every 50 hours after that they lose one power. Right now there is no reason for them to bother retrieving.

"Right now there is no reason for them to bother retrieving"

I suggest you first play a Tribunal hero, then review that statement.

Chances are, you won't retrieve because if you got raided in the first place the exact same number of Outlanders that pwned you in the Spire are now sitting chamoed under the huntress. Regardless, you're not going to be retrieving in a hurry - and I think we all know how little removing powers they couldn't use to re-raid anyway would change that fact. Tribunals would just go to log out instead of suiciding because they can't even sit on duty - where the outlanders can see them, sans-manacles, and assault them at their leasure.

Yhorian

When tribs take the fetish the outties can't even hide to think and regroup. If they are wanted (which nep says any real outlander should be all the time) they have to fight aggro mobs all the way in. Tribs can now also use guards on those retrievers, so number of defenders can be multiplied by three to include them and their guards. Not to mention that you can include out of range defender guards into that equation. If you aren't wanted (but remember then you aren't a good outtie) things get a bit easier as you can flee and rest out of the cluster #### that is retrieval at the captain. However if you happen to flee the wrong way at the end of the fight, you will end up wanted and guard gang raped.

Now with all that said believe it or not I am not anti-tribunal. I do however think that things between tribs and outties always end up horribly lopsided. I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think the current set up works as intended.

And making anyone believe it's harder to re-raid Tribunal unwanted, than it is to reraid Outlander absolutely ANY TIME, is ridiculous. In fact, I'd even say Tribunal is the god damn easiest Cabal in the game to reraid from as long as you don't have a Warrant. No joke.

As to the last point, yeah it's lopsided. But the solution is not to give criminals some miracle way to step around Warrants. Tribunal is a two-toned cabal, you have the peaceful watcher-investigator side of things (headed up by the Justiciar) and the all-out gank them mofo criminal head hunting side (headed up by the Vindicator).

In terms of both RP and PK, you have to appreciate both. That means attempts to escelate the War side, cannot infringe too greatly on the Watching side of play. Equally, trying to empower the Justiciar side often nerfs the Vindicator side of the Cabal - and exacerbates the stagnation we're observing today. The solution isn't to instantly try to empower one or the other - you just cause more problems. The solution is likely going to be in the direction of giving the Tribunal more away-from-city advantages, to encourage them to fight elsewhere. Equally, give the Outlander less of a home-advantage versus Tribunal. And vice versa the two notions above.

Yhorian

When the Spire has the Fetish, guards won't attack someone coming to retrieve.



and ....


When the Tree has the scales...


Outlanders can't snare, call hunt, call insects, or ambush in the area outside the Tree.




Neither makes much rp sense. But This certainly would make people more likely to retrieve.


The funny thing about this idea, is that if this is done...Outlanders lose MANY MANY more things that Tribby does......and it's still harder to retrieve from Outlander than tribby.



I am being facetious about this idea, of course. Incase it didn't show.

I was never really scared to retrieve from outlander. Village was a little more risky. The threat of retrieving was completely abolished by any means when the Provost was on. Why? Because they still get those Liuetenants that kill the huntress damn fast.

If for some reason I couldnt retrieve I didnt really care to wait. I didnt really care about my 'cabal' powers. I still had guards and warrants. I had a lot of incentive to raid them though. Even though they could rest on high road safely because none of them would be warranted, the chance I could warrant them when they fled in would make it worth it. Not to mentioned a ton of them died in the process of retrieving than any of us died. And they died multiple times.


I think there is a lot more incentive for tribunal to take fetish than there is for Outlander to take scales.

CraftedDeception

Why the imms gave ANYONE permahasted charmies is beyond me.

And that's why you're indirectly calling me and everyone that agreed with me retarded.

That's not very fair of you and I don't appreciate it.

I may not have been the best or most remembered on either side but I HAVE played BOTH sides of the equation.

While it may not be the most correct way to go about it, I exclude 'fighting the Outlander Cabal' as a reason for their cabal powers to exist. They work perfectly fine to defend their cities and are not used for offense against Outties, which is the way it should be.

The reason the flags need to drop off the face of the earth once the scales are taken is so that the outlaws have a reason to actually go and get their hands dirty with Tribbie blood. It doesn't make any sense that any sort of 'Statute of Limitations' doesn't exist in CF, including the death of the flagging trib or the Provost. You're damned until the end of time just from having the #### luck of having a tribunal log in while you were defending yourself, or from being subject to the griefing aspects of a duo'd muter tribunal without guards called playing that combo specifically to deceive and flag people (or to a lesser extent, hide). Stop letting the Tribunal essentially thumb their nose at anyone they flag WANTED until the wanted person gets a massive gang, turns it personal and leaves their corpse empty because it's the only real way to retaliate other than random lowbie ####stick looting. Both of which I've done specifically for this reason.

As for your complaints about Outlander wars... seriously? If you can't see camo, just take Maelstrom/induct more invokers/APs/bards/conjies/whip spec warriors with Maelstrom of the Veils and less paladins maybe? It's about a bloody ignorant a statement as 'flags disappearing is unbalanced because of the function of the cabal'.

Whenever I hear someone saying 'hey, if we had a way to get rid of warrants...' I imagine it's usually preceeded by the thought 'Man, I could do so much more crime if I didn't have to pay for it.'

Here, you make your intentions clearer and say it's because of the inherent stagnation of raiding between the two cabals. On that point, I am totally with you. The whole tribunal/outlander war is crap. Not the ideas, but the mechanics. Both have such a huge home advantage that it actively discourages any kind of activity between the two. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen - but discouraging it makes the game a lot less fun.

From that angle, I don't think the solution is to try nerfing WANTED via raid mechanics. Under these circumstances, all you're doing is encouraging WANTED people to raid while there are no Tribunal online. That solves no problems, as it's something Outlanders would probably do anyway - and adds nothing to the fun value. A far better solution would be if you were able to kill the person who issued the warrant, it would be removed via some odd mechanic. Still doesn't make sense in RP terms, and it makes the Magistrate hella likely to warrant people then go camp at his inner. But it does encourage more raiding.

Any more ideas now we're clear on the direction you want to go?

Yhorian

Let us take Throkk for example.

His wanted flags shouldn't most often never be removed from this, since he usually set the whole cities on fire, killed a ####load of guards, citizens etc. He would be far to known for far to many deeds to not be recognized by guards.

Though, healer X who throw someone a heal or something and gets wanted. His wanted flag falling when tribunals has lost the scales wouldn't be suprising, who could keep track of a healer throwing a heal? Not that it made him that famous.


Another thing I'd like to add to the idea from Treebeard and that might respond to a few of Yhorians concerns is make the tribunals ALOT harder to raid from. Since as you say, they already have it really rough. Make their inner twice as hard as other inners.

Thoughts?

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

.

Mostly because of manacles/guards when people are defending. But anyone can solo it if there's no defenders.

The Spirit? That thing can kill competant players solo. It's a bitch.