People have been complaining about dex builds being too good. I say the game is better now than it was when wield axe;bash was the best answer to everything. The dex specs require more interesting gear choices, more nuanced strategy and more intricate tactics.

Bash bash bash or trip trip trip is the most boring conceivable way to have a fight end, win OR lose. I'd much rather win a fight where I responded to my opponent's tactics and beat them with skill than by just watching my superior melee beat them down. I'd much rather lose a fight to a dex-warrior where I at least got to try some things than to a damage-spec that did nothing but command denial.

I applaud all of the pro-finesse changes.

>People have been complaining about dex builds being too good.

Yea, because dex builds are too good

>I say the game is better now than it was when wield axe;bash
>was the best answer to everything.

It has never been so in terms of two expirienced people fight each other on hero. On low/middle ranks bash bash is still best answer and will bring you more pk than anything else.

>The dex specs require more interesting gear choices, more nuanced >strategy and more intricate tactics.

Not really, it's way more easy to dress up dex build than str/bash build(If we want both build be equal deadly) on hero and probably middle ranks(on low ranks it's more easy to dress up basher).
As for nuanced strategy.. I can say that about 80-90% of kills people get is just using the same best strategy over and over again. And only just a few pkills amaize people with cool tactics. It's true for almost all race/class.

>Bash bash bash or trip trip trip is the most boring
>conceivable way to have a fight end, win OR lose.

If you died a lot to bash, bash, trip, trip.. there are a lot of things you should learn =)

>I'd much rather win a fight where I responded to my opponent's >tactics

That's what you had to do to win bash bash trip trip warrior in past.

>and beat them with skill than by just watching my superior
>melee beat them down.

Yea, superior melee/defences that's how dex builds eat other warriors now

>I'd much rather lose a fight to a
>dex-warrior where I at least got to try some things than to a
>damage-spec that did nothing but command denial.

dex warrior does nothing but using dagger specs while consealed and striking eat you. For me I don't see a big difference, except it's way more easy to avoid command denial than dagger moves and striking.

>I applaud all of the pro-finesse changes.
I don't.

Also, there were no much really kick ass bash builds in cf history and to make one you have to put MUCH MORE efforts into a char, compare to efforts you have to put into dex build. That's what piss me off most of all because I think if you put more efforts you deserve to get more deadly combo

As giant you have to put ####ing a lot of time in mastering your skills and such, as dex build you will master all you need during ranking.

As dex build you don't have to worry about good weapons, envenom daggers will eat 80% of your enemies with an easy.

As dex build you don't have to gather a lot of good eq to be deadly, as giant you have to get a KICK ASS set to be as strong as dex build with semi good eq.

As dex build you don't have to worry about bash because it's nearly impossible to bash you down.

Also dex builds vs bash builds were good enough pre dex changes. Now dex builds pwn bash builds

Striking is just a #### I've talked with few people who played with it. All of them told me that it's #### legacy and should be removed

I guess you're entitled to your opinion, but the numbers didn't/don't bear them out as accurate in a factual way.

I bet bash builds get more kills than dex one. I've never tried to say overwise. But usually there are a lot of factors that you have to take into account before you use any statistic. I can tell you as person who finished best math university in russia

Like:
1. How many expirienced warrior players did play dex build.
2. How much hours did they play dex builds compare to their successful bash builds.
3. How many hours we had bash builds(3-4 years?) compared to how many
hours dex builds become popular(1 year?)

Obviously, you can not just take numbers without taking into account at least those three factors if you want to prove anything.

Also thing is that dex builds(I'm speaking only about elves with striking) has better options against almost all other class. For example:

1. As dex build you don't have to worry about bard as giants have.
2. You don't have to worry about transmuters with neor as giants have.
3. Same goes to necros/ap with sleep
4. Invokers can not abuse your vuln.
5. You don't have to worry about warrior with bash. while bash build has to. unless you have greetings.

And so on.

And so on. Giants only better against assassins(assassinate only) and thiefs(bj, steal) mostly.

It's like bards, you can make run a lot of people with an easy but it's not easy to seal the kill, while with bash it's simple.

btw! Do elves with striking bash better than elves without it? From my expirience it is so. But probably it was leader bonuses or rng.

>btw! Do elves with striking bash better than elves without it?
>From my expirience it is so. But probably it was leader
>bonuses or rng.

As far as I remember, no.

FWIW, I don't think I've ever actually died to a striking character. I've sure died to a lot of bash characters, though.

>
>>btw! Do elves with striking bash better than elves without
>it?
>>From my expirience it is so. But probably it was leader
>>bonuses or rng.
>
>As far as I remember, no.

Magus pwned my ass then. I still hope you remember something wrong

>FWIW, I don't think I've ever actually died to a striking
>character. I've sure died to a lot of bash characters,
>though.

I've died more to bash characters for obvious reasons(because bash lags? ), but it's much harder to compete with striking with most of classes.

I edited my previous post. Hm.

***One bash lasted 4 rounds. I think you guys should re-look at the shadows code. This is just one example...it's happened to me at least 3 times where after a while, their bash got really powerful all of a sudden.

<650/793hp 460/542m 823/901mv 20490tnl (5.23%) 9 PM indoor standing} heal heal

Jalenkan sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
Jalenkan's bash scratches you.
You yell 'Help! Jalenkan is bashing me!'
Jalenkan has some small but disgusting cuts.

<648/793hp 460/542m 823/901mv 20490tnl (5.23%) 9 PM indoor fighting}
Jalenkan pulls away from your line of sight, avoiding your attack.
As Jalenkan maneuvers, you lose sight of him briefly. As you turn to face him, he is already upon you with a vicious strike!
Jalenkan's poisonous bite mauls you.
Poison creeps into your body from an envenomed steel stiletto.
You feel very sick.
You parry Jalenkan's poisonous bite.
You parry Jalenkan's slash.
You parry Jalenkan's poisonous bite.
You parry Jalenkan's poisonous bite.
Jalenkan has some small but disgusting cuts.

<627/793hp 460/542m 823/901mv 20490tnl (5.23%) 9 PM indoor fighting}
You shiver and suffer.
Your poison hits you.
You continue to bleed from your wounds.
Your bleeding hits you.
You continue to bleed from your wounds.
Your bleeding artery wounds you.
Jalenkan has some small but disgusting cuts.

<584/793hp 460/542m 824/901mv 20490tnl (5.23%) 10 PM indoor fighting}
Jalenkan parries your infernal power.
Jalenkan dodges your crush and closes in for a concealed attack!
Jalenkan's poisonous bite injures you.
Jalenkan's poisonous bite wounds you.
Jalenkan's slash wounds you.
You parry Jalenkan's poisonous bite.
Jalenkan has some small but disgusting cuts.

<529/793hp 460/542m 824/901mv 20490tnl (5.23%) 10 PM indoor fighting}
You evade Jalenkan's bash, causing him to fall flat on his face.
Jalenkan's bash misses you.
Jalenkan has some small but disgusting cuts.

<529/793hp 460/542m 824/901mv 20490tnl (5.23%) 10 PM indoor fighting}
Jalenkan dodges your infernal power.
Jalenkan parries your crush and retaliates with lightning quickness!
Jalenkan's poisonous bite injures you.
Jalenkan dodges your crush and closes in for a concealed attack!
Jalenkan's poisonous bite injures you.
Jalenkan's poisonous bite wounds you.
You parry Jalenkan's slash.
You parry Jalenkan's slash.
Jalenkan has some small but disgusting cuts.

<479/793hp 460/542m 824/901mv 20490tnl (5.23%) 10 PM indoor fighting}
Jalenkan stops your infernal power with a solid blow.
Jalenkan parries your crush.
Jalenkan dodges your infernal power and closes in for a concealed attack!
Jalenkan's poisonous bite wounds you.
Jalenkan's poisonous bite mauls you.
You parry Jalenkan's slash.
Jalenkan's poisonous bite mauls you.
You parry Jalenkan's poisonous bite.
Jalenkan has some small but disgusting cuts.

<414/793hp 460/542m 824/901mv 20490tnl (5.23%) 10 PM indoor fighting} You pay an old arial cleric 1200 copper coins.
An old arial cleric closes his eyes for a moment and nods at you.
A peaceful warmth suffuses your body as an old arial cleric heals your wounds.
Jalenkan has some small but disgusting cuts.

<461/793hp 460/542m 824/901mv 20490tnl (5.23%) 10 PM indoor fighting}
Jalenkan dodges your infernal power and closes in for a concealed attack!
Jalenkan's poisonous bite wounds you.
Jalenkan parries your infernal power.
You parry Jalenkan's poisonous bite.
Jalenkan's poisonous bite mauls you.
You parry Jalenkan's poisonous bite.
Jalenkan has some small but disgusting cuts.

***One bash lasted 4 rounds. I think you guys should re-look at the shadows code. This is just one example...it's happened to me at least 3 times where after a while, their bash got really powerful all of a sudden.

Any character who has practiced the skill can potentially get a bash that lasts four rounds. I'm not sure what you think the "shadows code" does, or where you got that information, but this isn't it.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

That they experienced very potent bashing from dex stsf builds with stsf charged.
Can you look and double check it?
stsf is evil enough with damage/defense/noflee, everybody and their mother is stsf, and elf bashing will not make it less popular.
As an aside note, I don't believe this legacy can be balanced in its current shape. It will be either overpowered or useless. Probably it's easier to completely revamp or remove it.

That they experienced very potent bashing from dex stsf builds with stsf charged.

That may be true, but it had nothing to do with the Legacy in question.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Could you please look up how many times a char that is a size smaller (if not two sizes smaller) can bash a char for more than 3 rounds?

Because in the one log, that's an elf rager. So, no enlarge. Not only that, I'd daresay he has about 150 lbs, as opposed to the giant with over 450+.

Honestly, I believe a lot of what the IMMs say, but I gotta call #### on this one.

Ok that log he left out a few things...

You slam into Venecfis, and send it flying!
Your bash scratches Venecfis.
Venecfis is gushing blood.

<557(61%)hp 630(100%)m 952(99%)mv 27100tnl (-23.18%)> *civilized* 903 630 953
Venecfis shivers and suffers.
Venecfis's poison hits it.
Venecfis continues to bleed from its wounds.
Venecfis's bleeding hits it.
Venecfis continues to bleed from its wounds.
Venecfis's arterial blood pools upon the ground.
Venecfis's bleeding artery wounds it.
Venecfis is gushing blood.

bas
<564(62%)hp 630(100%)m 953(100%)mv 27100tnl (-23.18%)> *civilized* 903 630 953
You dodge Venecfis's infernal power.
You parry Venecfis's crush and retaliate with lightning quickness!
Your poisonous bite decimates Venecfis!
You fail to get in one more shot as Venecfis flees.
Venecfis has fled!
Venecfis leaves west.

******One round lag...?******

Springing forward, you send Venecfis sprawling with a solid body blow!
Your bash scratches Venecfis.
Venecfis is gushing blood.

<754(83%)hp 580(92%)m 953(100%)mv 27100tnl (-23.18%)> *civilized* 903 630 953 bas

You dodge Venecfis's infernal power.
Weaving through the Flow of Shadows, you avoid Venecfis's attack.
You parry Venecfis's crush.
Venecfis parries your poisonous bite.
Venecfis remains safe as your slash bounces harmlessly off of a skin from the snow leopard.
Your poisonous bite mauls Venecfis.
Venecfis is gushing blood.

<754(83%)hp 580(92%)m 953(100%)mv 27100tnl (-23.18%)> *civilized* 903 630 953
Venecfis's infernal power EVISCERATES you!
Weaving through the Flow of Shadows, you avoid Venecfis's attack.
Venecfis parries your poisonous bite.
Your poisonous bite mauls Venecfis.
Your poisonous bite mauls Venecfis.
Venecfis is writhing in agony.

<703(77%)hp 580(92%)m 953(100%)mv 27100tnl (-23.18%)> *civilized* 903 630 953
Venecfis gets a wand of return from the girdle of endless space.
Charging forward, you lose your balance and fall when Venecfis avoids you!
Your bash misses Venecfis.
Venecfis is writhing in agony.

<703(77%)hp 580(92%)m 953(100%)mv 27100tnl (-23.18%)> *civilized* 903 630 953 Venecfis utters the words, 'znquguai'.
Venecfis glares angrily towards a wand of return.
Venecfis disappears.


less than 2 rounds cause he got command before I bashed.

Please don't use logs which were not you to prove your point.
And if you would stop and think maybe he was typing heal heal
and suffered the heal lag along with bash lag to equal 4 rounds.

FYI Weight : 221 lb 11 oz (Max 327 lbs)

Having been playing for some time now I do not recall ever lagging
for more than 2 or 2.5 rounds and if I ever miss a bash the enemy
is sure to get away.

So on my part, it's just speculation and my experience.

The elf sized race who bashed me without STSF never got past 2 round. Only this elf and another elf, both with STSF, and both whom I fought for a decent amount of rounds for their marks to go up, has had such success.

Bash duration is, in general, completely random and in no way dependant on the size, strength, etc. of the basher or the bashee.

Now, whether or not bash hits or not is another story.

...for now.

I think you were wrong once. In 1994. April I believe.

People say a lot of things.

I was wrong about something else just earlier this month though, so clearly it's possible.

>Not really, it's way more easy to dress up dex build than

I disagree.

With a dex build you have to gear for dex and care about carried weight in a much more interesting way than with a bash spec. Optimizing for low-weight is not as simple as just buying 300 pounds of rafts. With a dex build you might ask yourself "Is it worth 1 str to always carry 20 extra pounds." With a bash spec you just buy an extra raft if you don't have enough weight.

Bash builds also generally didn't care about as many stats. It was all damroll, a bit of str and enough svs to be comfortable. Dex builds need to care about dex and health and are usually more concerned with str than a bash build is. They still need svs just as much. There's a lot more skill involved in balancing all those stats.

>As for nuanced strategy.. I can say that about 80-90% of kills
>people get is just using the same best strategy over and over
>again.

Even if that were true, at last there's something to that strategy bash;!;!;! is the least intricate strategy possible.

>If you died a lot to bash, bash, trip, trip.. there are a lot
>of things you should learn =)

If you're dieing to dagger specs who can't lag you, you also have a lot to learn.

>That's what you had to do to win bash bash trip trip warrior
>in past.

No, you just had to go into the fight with more melee. In order to overcome that, sure you need better tactics. THat's what you need against dex specs too. Right now I think people are still in the mindset that "I have a big axe I should be able to bash everyone into the ground" Try gearing for more str and using some maladictions of your own. Dagger specs tank worse than anyone when their str drops low.

>Yea, superior melee/defences that's how dex builds eat other
>warriors now

If nobody enters commands, the dex build will lose.

>dex warrior does nothing but using dagger specs while
>consealed and striking eat you.

You just glossed over "using dagger specs" as if it were insignificant. Compare to a bash spec which uses one non-spec skill while plain old melee strikes eat you. And there's lots of unavoidable command denial these days. They aren't permalag the way bash is, but there's lots of trip-lag available.

>As giant you have to put ####ing a lot of time in mastering
>your skills and such, as dex build you will master all you
>need during ranking.

I think skill practice is a garbage mechanic and I'm glad to see it reduced. I think you *should* get your needed skills up during ranking. I don't think anybody deserves a power boost simply for having more time to waste on a mindless activity. That's not skill, it's just having nothing better to do with your life than spam skills on a mob. Right now someone who is good at practicing skills up still gets a smallish edge, and I think that's okay. But simply being willing to do boring things should not net advantages. It's anti-funstick.

>As dex build you don't have to worry about bash because it's
>nearly impossible to bash you down.

It's nearly impossible to win by doing absolutely nothing but bashing. That's true, and as it should be.

>Also dex builds vs bash builds were good enough pre dex
>changes. Now dex builds pwn bash builds

It always used to be that only elite players could beat a bash spec with a dagger spec. Look at all the legendary Battlerager names from the past and count how many were axe or mace vs how many were dagger or whip. Most of the most feared warriors are high-damage bash-heavy giants.

Keep in mind that I'm VERY good in bash builds and warriors in general. Also when I speak about bash build I speak about most powerful(giant with sword), when I speak about dex build it is elf/dark elf dagger striking.

>With a dex build you have to gear for dex and care about
>carried weight in a much more interesting way than with a bash
>spec. Optimizing for low-weight is not as simple as just
>buying 300 pounds of rafts. With a dex build you might ask
>yourself "Is it worth 1 str to always carry 20 extra pounds."
>With a bash spec you just buy an extra raft if you don't have
>enough weight.
>
>Bash builds also generally didn't care about as many stats. It
>was all damroll, a bit of str and enough svs to be
>comfortable.
I bet you did not have kick ass bash builds in past because with such strategy your bash build will suck for sure.

>Dex builds need to care about dex and health and
>are usually more concerned with str than a bash build is. They
>still need svs just as much. There's a lot more skill involved
>in balancing all those stats.

that's not true as bash build you need:
1. More svs than dex build, because you have low int
2. I need a lot more svp because int too
3. I need A LOT more str than dex build, because swords are more heavy than daggers and flurry depends on str a lot. daggers are not heavy, dagger skills depends on dex. Also dagger spec can #### up your str/dex better(and very fast)than bash build using both specs.
Do you realise how much str/dex you have to cover as bash build vs dagger build?
4. You need a lot more dex because of almost the same reasons as in point 3.
5. As dagger spec you can easily have 1000 - 1100 hp which is quite enough.
6. As dagger spec you can forget about weight, you still will eat anyone with striking legacy

>Even if that were true, at last there's something to that
>strategy bash;!;!;! is the least intricate strategy possible.

The more expirienced you are the more tactics you find boring, belive me May be it's just a matter of taste.

>If you're dieing to dagger specs who can't lag you, you also
>have a lot to learn.

I die to 3-4 man gangs usually. And dagger striking are good at bashing right now, also laggings + blocking flee from striking is cool also.

>No, you just had to go into the fight with more melee. In
>order to overcome that, sure you need better tactics. THat's
>what you need against dex specs too. Right now I think people
>are still in the mindset that "I have a big axe I should be
>able to bash everyone into the ground" Try gearing for more
>str and using some maladictions of your own. Dagger specs tank
>worse than anyone when their str drops low.

They don't tank worse than anyone because of striking which will cover your str loss, as well as dex build benefits more from dodging that don't have much to do with str. Also bash build can not do a lot - str to you. And you can.

>If nobody enters commands, the dex build will lose.
No, striking will win.

>You just glossed over "using dagger specs" as if it were
>insignificant. Compare to a bash spec which uses one non-spec
>skill while plain old melee strikes eat you. And there's lots
>of unavoidable command denial these days. They aren't
>permalag the way bash is, but there's lots of trip-lag
>available.

wtf?

>I think skill practice is a garbage mechanic and I'm glad to
>see it reduced.
It's not reduced in any form, it's still the same as it was before dex changes. I donno what you are talking about.

>I think you *should* get your needed skills up
>during ranking.
Yea, I think bash builds need it

>I don't think anybody deserves a power boost
>simply for having more time to waste on a mindless activity.

Actualy they are. Those who puts more time, effords into playing should and always gets power boosts in cf.. in that or this form, like having better armors, prep knowledge, imm bonuses and such.

>That's not skill, it's just having nothing better to do with
>your life than spam skills on a mob. Right now someone who is
>good at practicing skills up still gets a smallish edge, and I
>think that's okay. But simply being willing to do boring
>things should not net advantages. It's anti-funstick.

Yep, it's anti-funstick. But mastering is not all that no-skill thing. A lot of players spend a lot of time in cf, see how much of them mastered their skills, while all know that mastered skills will give you advantage.

>It's nearly impossible to win by doing absolutely nothing but
>bashing. That's true, and as it should be.

I'm failing to see your point. I was saying that getting dagger spec also give you sort of anti-bash legacy, which is way too cool to get nothing

>It always used to be that only elite players could beat a bash
>spec with a dagger spec.
Yea, I'm elite! . Right now even mediocare players with dagger spec can give troubles to elite bash player.

>Look at all the legendary Battlerager
>names from the past and count how many were axe or mace vs how
>many were dagger or whip. Most of the most feared warriors are
>high-damage bash-heavy giants.

That's just stupid. I won't go into details, unless you really want it but in short:

because legendary battleragers were BEFORE dex change. After dex changes(with others changes that happened in the same time) all battleragers are raped in ass, even ragers dex builds(though they do a bit better than bash builds)

Ask yourself HOW MANY bash build ragers with high damage were legendary after dex changes.. I will tell you, NO ONE.

Also in general dagger build are fine for me untill they get striking.

So 90% of this post was whining about one legacy and not about dex at all. Elf dagger stsf is not that common even after the changes.

>1. More svs than dex build, because you have low int

I'll give you that, partially.

>3. I need A LOT more str than dex build, because swords are
>more heavy than daggers and flurry depends on str a lot.

Except you have 25 str instead of 18. That's 7 str you get for free as the bash build.

>6. As dagger spec you can forget about weight, you still will
>eat anyone with striking legacy

That's a load of crap, sorry.

>from dodging that don't have much to do with str.

Dodging has everything to do with str. If you str drops, you will usually get encumbered and suddenly be dodging like a giant.

>Actualy they are. Those who puts more time, effords into
>playing should and always gets power boosts in cf.

Everything else you listed is skill acquired over time by the player. Skill practice is time spent per character.

>because legendary battleragers were BEFORE dex change.

Right, so before the dex changes all the best characters were bash builds. That's what I'm saying. Clear?

Do me a favor. Check all the elf/drow warrior PBF's in the last year.

I guarantee 80% took striking.

Now check all the giant warrior PBF's in the same span. I guarantee less than half took Greeting.

But I thought BASH WAS KING?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

When a legacy becomes a no-brainer upon character creation, then it should be changed. I don't think I'd ever roll an elf/drow WITHOUT Striking.

My main problem with STSF is: if I told you you could hit harder, more often, dodge better, evade skills way more and cutoff you opponent, but all you had to do was last around 10 combat rounds and stay alive, wouldn't you ####ing jump up and down and take the legacy?

And one of the main drawbacks of STSF is neutralized by being a goodie elf, especially when you have friends. IE Killing mobs for gear.

>When a legacy becomes a no-brainer upon character creation,
>then it should be changed. I don't think I'd ever roll an
>elf/drow WITHOUT Striking.

You're looking at this backwards.

Elf/d-elf is not naturally a good choice racewise for a warrior. It's just not. It can be good with some plan that minimizes their weaknesses and emphasizes their strengths, but in a vacuum it is absolutely not a good choice.

If you pick one of those races and you don't pick one of a very, very few legacies that capitalize on their marginal strong points, (especially in comparison to an arial) you have intentionally created a very sub-optimal character.

Lord knows my drow warrior got spanked six ways from Sunday. Meanwhile, I'd like to think my Fire/Duergar warriors are a bit more potent.

I just think STSF = no funstick in a lot of ways. I suppose I can live with it, provided you Immortals keep playing solid characters.

They have slightly worse stats than arial warriors (who fall into the similar dex-build category) but they have their own advantages over arials.
1) Can use gear. Arials are limited to a few not-very-good pieces of arial-only gear. And drow/elf only eq is advantage, not disadvantage.
2) Sneak. Which is great. I repeat. Sneak is great. Sneak is great.
3) faerie fire or quick strike(?) in general are more useful than arials inherits.

Arials can fly, but some cabal powers of potions may help elf/drow warriors in this respect.

Speaking of stsf. I will repeat myself, it can't be balanced in its current shape.
It's like liches, they are OP, all you can do is not to give them to skilled players to maintain balance.

In most of fights stsf warrior has time to charge it. Especially in raid situations.
If it will be possible to charge stsf, people will do it and become overpowered.
If it will be nearly impossible to charge stsf then the legacy will be useless. Like Mercy of Typhoon.

And noflee part of stsf should really go away, it's overpowered. Charged stsf provides you with something like dance+ward legacies, maybe something else and makes those standalone legacies almost obsolete for elf/drow warriors.

How can you compare arials and elves/drow without bringing up the biggest disadvantage for elves/drow? Elves/drow have an uncoverable material vulnerability that arials don't have. Arials can completely negate their vulns or reduce them but elves/drow cannot and water/lightning weapons are few and far between compared with mithril/iron.

The problem with elves isn't that they can't gear, the problem is iron weapons will rape them brutally if they don't have damage reduction up. That was more true before evade but still holds very true today.

>How can you compare arials and elves/drow without bringing up
>the biggest disadvantage for elves/drow? Elves/drow have an
>uncoverable material vulnerability that arials don't have.
>Arials can completely negate their vulns or reduce them but
>elves/drow cannot and water/lightning weapons are few and far
>between compared with mithril/iron.

Arials can't cover water, so they're at least at a disadvantage against invokers. I admit that's a pretty niche disadvantage. They also miss out on some primo gear. For most people that's not an issue, but we're talking about the "upper reaches" here, so it might bear consideration. Arials lack perma-sneak. Their big advantage, permaflight, is rendered mostly irrelevant if the character is going Fortress. They also lack swiftstrike. While swiftstrike isn't "the bomb", it's arguably more useful than permaflight/wingsweep if we're comparing elf-fortress to arial-fortress.

I'm not saying elves are superior to arials, necessarily, but I think the comparison is a little closer than you suggest.

>Arials can't cover water, so they're at least at a
>disadvantage against invokers.

Well, yes and no. I would say water is more coverable than iron/mithril as long as you aren't Battle. You have at least a chance of an invoker on your side or a niche piece of gear or two that helps.

>I admit that's a pretty niche
>disadvantage. They also miss out on some primo gear.

There I agree that there's one of the bigger arial disadvantages that is often missed, although, keep in mind that elf/d-elf is also missing out on good-friendly iron gear and evil-friendly mithril gear respectively. I'm not saying there's a million pieces of that, but I'd sure miss a few iron poison daggers as an elf dagger, jewelled broadsword/Humansunder as a d-elf sword, etc.

>For
>most people that's not an issue, but we're talking about the
>"upper reaches" here, so it might bear consideration. Arials
>lack perma-sneak. Their big advantage, permaflight, is
>rendered mostly irrelevant if the character is going Fortress.

I disagree on this, but it's partially my play style. I'm almost never going to be in serious PK danger in a situation where things are un-dire enough for me that I have my cabal powers. I discount permafly on Fort/Outlander characters a lot less than most people do, so that might just be me.

Heck, on any character with fly on their spell list (but not racial fly) that I play 200+ hours I probably will take at least one death that racial fly would prevent. Flights dispelled in gangs, sleeps that outlast fly's duration, etc.

Of course, if we're talking about a Battle warrior, racial fly is an extra premium because it's pretty much the only way you're going to ever have it.

>They also lack swiftstrike. While swiftstrike isn't "the
>bomb", it's arguably more useful than permaflight/wingsweep if
>we're comparing elf-fortress to arial-fortress.

Arguable, but SS can indeed be pretty nice. I don't think it plays super well with dagger, but it's really nice for a lot of the better parrying specs.

Although, I want to say I once crunched the numbers on number of returned attacks by elf sword with riposte + swiftstrike vs. arial with just riposte, and the arial either comes out ahead or it's close. (The arial definitely just gets hit less in melee, though, which is a plus.) Swiftstrike is also easier to negate than riposte. (See the respective helpfiles.) Of course, an elf axe will get some returned attacks where the arial axe will get zero, so there it's clearly advantage swiftstrike.

>I'm not saying elves are superior to arials, necessarily, but
>I think the comparison is a little closer than you suggest.

This just doesn't ring true to me.

My personal feeling, having played both plenty of times, is that arial warrior is nearly always just flat out better than elf/d-elf warrior. Any way I do the analysis that still comes out true.

Further: the 'power' players still tend to pick 'power' warriors over striking warriors. I suggest to you they/you/etc. aren't doing this because they think dex warriors are better.

Best character build used to be Fire/sword/greeting.
Post dex changes, it is now elf/dagger/striking.
Is there a difference?
There is still just as much imbalance.

I'm fine that better build changed. But I'm against that:

1. With elf you have to put much less efforts to get very strong warrior
2. First point means that a lot noobs can be very strong only because legacy, spec do everything for them. That's why I think it's imbalanced more than giant bashers.
3. Also dagger/striking rocks a lot more other combos that giant bashers.

I think it should. Putting in a couple hundred extra hours to perfect your skills doesn't take player skill as much as it takes patience.

I wasn't arguing that this was okay. I was arguing that if giants were OP enough to be toned down in the past, then elves should be too if they are just as strong now.

Dex is the knew Str. Nothing was fixed, the stats just switched places. Game balance is just as ####ed up now as ever.

In other words, the situation is exactly the same as it has always been, except build A has been substituted for build B. So why all the sturm und drang all of a sudden?

Because people are annoyed that classes that used to be pushovers aren't anymore. Lets face it, finesse specs in general always got beaten in the past by bash/flurry. For the record I'd still rather fight a Kostyan or Kayella any day over a bash spec character with swordmasters + humansunder. I disagree that dex specs are "far easier" than sword flurry specs and I don't really see how those combos are very nasty unless they get you to drop your weapons.

> Because people are annoyed that classes that used to be pushovers
> aren't anymore. Lets face it, finesse specs in general always got
> beaten in the past by bash/flurry.

Basically, you don't care because now YOUR favorite combos are the most powerful choices around right now.

> I disagree that dex specs are "far easier" than sword flurry specs
> and I don't really see how those combos are very nasty unless they
> get you to drop your weapons.

Really? STSF/Elf or D-elf/Dagger warriors aren't really very nasty? You sure man? Cause there's a whole lot of people saying just the opposite.

Personally I think STSF is stupid powerful. You can take one broken legacy and you become super powerful, like when a mage hits 36.

One of which was a dagger/pole spec, the other was a sword/whip spec. I don't play warriors that often. The people who think STSF is that terrible are people who can't seem to adapt. Its not very hard to deal with when you don't let them maximize their concealeds (some weapons are harder to dodge than others).

STSF/Elf or D-elf/Dagger warriors aren't really very nasty? You sure man? Cause there's a whole lot of people saying just the opposite.

As pointed out in previous posts, this trend doesn't appear to be large-scale.

If I look for active characters with both:
- Large number of wins
- Small number of losses

... it's a pretty broad mix. I think people are merely overreacting to Kostyan (who has a lot of things going for him, STSF/dagger being a small piece of that puzzle), and underreacting to builds they're more accustomed to facing (like Igbah).

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Looking at raw pk score isn't very accurate way to estimate the balance.
Well, it's accurate if you are trying to balance number of kills/deaths and only for this.
But a large part of pk is left out of this window. In general, str builds are much better at nailing kills, so if a stsf elf has the same number of kills/deaths as a fire/avalance/sword that usually means he won (killed or made his foe to run) many more fights that the giant.

While many don't consider making an opponent to flee as an achievement, I would argue about it, because it could mean that:
1) You lose your cabal item.
2) You failed to retrieve.
3) You escaped leaving your group to die.
4) etc.
For example, a necromancer usually has more kills than a paladin (and probably less loses too), still I don't necessary agree that paladins are weak.
If you will balance the number of kills for a necromancer and a paladin, then probably paladins will become too beastly.
Using this analogy: if a stsf elf and avalache giant have the same number of kills, that doesn't necessary means that they are somewhat balanced in power.

Also, raw pk score doesn't reflect many other factors like:
cabal, alignment, ganging, additinal powers, current set of foes, style, rp restirictions at killing, etc.
So when you look only at people with large number of wins and small number of losses you are at risk of gathering inofrmation only about a portion of players that have similarly favorable set of factors for their current character, leaving any other build/cabal/style combinations out of the review.

Not that I have a detailed methodology ready
So your short observation is still better than nothing. Just pointing out the limitations of it.

You know, I fail to subscribe to any mechanism for measuring balance where STSF warrior with 100 kills is overpowered but bash spec flurry giant has 300 kills and isn't.

Its not that there aren't things that I feel are overpowered (instant kill things for instance), which may not correlate to absurdedly high kill count. Its just that "tanking very well" isn't one of those things. I'm also unconvinced that I couldn't cream STSF builds with any one of a dozen combinations ranging from conjurers to bards to paladins to etc. The only thing I wouldn't want to fight one with is probably orc. Even a flurry spec should kick their tale if they don't have damage reduction.

I kicked some butt with Iramath before dex changes, and without STSF, using daggers. I remember at the time a small number of people bitching about the character.


I am tempted to _really_ piss people off by coming out of retirement with the same build, only swapping legacies to include STSF. I imagine I'd be a whole lot harder than I was with Iramath.

Come back, please, but I'd encourage you to do something more original than elf dagger stsf.

Solo-PK-wise, I didn't think Iramath was all that.

He did well, but I would chalk up most of that up to him being a great cabal leader. Because of that, Fortress was overwhelmingly in power during his lifetime, and he rarely had to fight against the odds or without his powers. I mean, yeah, of course Iramath plus 2-4 other guys is scary when you're the only evil on -- even if you can get solo fights, you know you're not getting your cabal powers back for long and Iramath isn't losing his for long no matter what.

Don't get me wrong, I think he's an achievement to be proud of -- just not a PK achievement so much.

I love you sometimes Nepenthe, but as I said in another post, someone can rationalize ANYTHING if they had the mind to do it.

I seem to remember you even mentioning how bad he beat you up a couple times. Heh.

I think you're probably thinking of someone who isn't me.

But it's alright if you ain't. Maybe it was Valg. He's sneaky good.

14 Iramath 395 86% 81 0.2051 13 6 2 elf warrior chaotic good fortress


Iramath makes it to the top twenty Goodies of all time. Let us not forget just how impressive that is with the evil-only tendancy for fortie kills.

Iramath was bad ass.

Honestly I agree with that, mostly. On his way up, things weren't so cheery, and I fought for my meals, so to speak.

What tends to happen a lot with my characters that get a leader spot is that shortly after they hit their stride, the whole cabal does. I can't avoid this for the life of me...and in fact I've had one cabal leader ever where it kinda went opposite, and that was Urden.

When he came into power, Dullameh had boosted the cabal up to ridiculous power, and we had a great Advisor too (lion/dillo...Krivohan?). Anyways, they all died off and he stuck around as the other cabals got nasty. Even though that situation is trying at times, it was more to my playing style and allowed me to rack up quite a tally.

With Iramath I don't think I would have had a terrible time keeping up if the cabal situation had been different. Remember, at his height I was also fighting Nabburak and Granaak, plus a handful of evil ragers. It was definitely not easy.