You might as well change the name of the game to Mage Wars cause that's what it's become.

First of all, let me point out that I just witnessed a transmuter out melee a RANGER in the WILDS. Doing mangles and massacres three times a round, on top of demolishing spells, holding them still, and then unspeakable damaging disruptions, and to top it off, they were NOT alone. All the while the three that were fighting them did hits and mauls. Explain to me how that's balanced?

But mages are weaker at the low levels and they reap the rewards of their work in the later ranks!

No they aren't. An invoker can kill you with wall of fire from level 16 to 23 or so without much scare. I got beat by transmuters pretty regularly from 23 and up. So what you have is a melee class getting out melee'd by a mage, and THEN the mage gets protections and then you don't have a hope in hell of doing ANY damage to them at all.

Where do characters spend the majority of their life? At the hero ranks, and at that level is where it should be balanced. You HAVE to gang people now because that's the only way you can deal enough damage to kill anyone. It's sad. This used to be a fun game at hero. I'm beginning to remember why I quit playing.

And it doesn't matter what kind of mage you are. Conjurers with angels, elementals, aura, barrier, shield can rip through anyone. Invokers ABS + shields are unstoppable. Transmuters are unstoppable without another transmuter. At least the shapeshifters aren't the uber-ridiculously powerful zoo they were when I was Trewyn. They aren't far from that though.

So to combat this situation the imms have increased the amount of damage warriors do. Which screws ANYONE without damage reduction. Flurries can do 600 points of damage. And don't tell me they don't do that often. I haven't been hit for one that did less than 300 in a LONG time except by head hunters with one sword. I had one dish out 600 points of damage through aura and protection and possibly even shield I can't remember. If I didn't have those protections it would have killed me outright from full health. It DID kill me anyways. I went from 100 hp less than full to 26 hp. Dagger spec bleeding can cause over 100 hps of bleeding per round for 6-8 rounds. At least the leader of battle can cause that much. That's a LOT of damage. I remember the gripe-fest people made when that bug caused impale damage to deal a demolish every round when I was trewyn. Oh how I understand that now.

Another thing that irritates me are the "you can't beat me" situations. If you can't beat someone 100% of the time in a certain situation, then that is NOT balanced. Balanced is you win around half the time, and in a positive situation, you win better than half, but not more than three fourths. It's a GAME, not Real Life, not even an imitation of real life and it should be balanced at all levels, not the power swing system in place now.

The game was fun back when an unspeakable damage was only possible from a backstab or the occasional ambush or when you broke heartseeker the unbreakable dagger in someone's chest. I can't say all the changes have been bad, the game is definately different and unique. But in my humble opinion, it was a lot more fun in the second and third ages. I prefer less of the easter egg hunt and more of the run and gun bash splash blood, whoops I died get some basic gear and get back with it attitude that was in place then.

I'm just curious if I'm the ONLY one that feels ABS is ####. I would LOVE to hear an Imm's opinion on this.

To combat this if you feel it's NECESSARY to keep ABS, then I suggest some simple changes.

Make it so melee classes get a BIGGER boost to HP, 1-2 per level. Then make it so giant classes get an additional 1-5 hp per level, regardless of class. Make it so that the average player has 1000 hp at hero and a high HP class having 2000 hp. And then you can add something like fast healing II for warriors but call it something catchy.

On top of this, have the number of unspeaks possible drop or make it so they can't cast the spells so fast. As it stands, most ranger spells except for entangle can be cast once for two of every mage class spells. Make it so fights last more than 8 rounds.

Another way to combat this is make spells fail just like skills, or not so often. That to me would balance the game out a LOT. Make it possible to simply miss with that fireball, or that lightning bolt and wall of fire at least.

Give shield to rangers like they used to have. OR just give it to the animists. They get screwed on the combat and their mage spells hardly make up for it. It easily fits within the role play.

OR Give warriors some way to stop spell casting other than dagger specs. Maybe have evasion work for spells. You duck behind your tower shield and absorb the blast from XXX's fireball.

So now that I'm done venting and being frustrated, I want to hear some other opinions on what ever about Game Balance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_Razor

It is apparent by all the text, that:
1. There is no reason to change the name of the mud to Mage Wars
2. Mages aren't as deadly as you seem to think they are
3. You can't even keep your arguments straight (Mages can roll at low levels vs. Mages are easy to tool at low levels)
4. Since I started reading this thread it has felt like a troll with little value.

All that being said...it is now locked. Find something else to bitch about, instead of your inability to kill mages, and the ease with which they kill you.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

I'll point you to following log: http://www.qhcf.net/cforum/logs/vpost.pl?92424

The thing is, neuros that do MASSACRE-MANGLE or even ***DEMOLISH***? That's scary as hell, neuro is even without that. How come it does so much damage for them?

Can a vet make three players who aren't as skilled as him look silly? Sure! But, guess what, those vets just don't play mages. Let's take a look at who I found over the last three months in the PBF that prove non-mage classes can do a fair job of killing mages.

Teutonium - 44 mage kills, 45 mage deaths. Warrior.

Jutunn - 54 mage kills, 18 mage deaths. Bard.

Yazhmog - 21 mage kills, 0 mage deaths. Orc.

Begelrut - 51 mage kills, 1 mage death. Warrior.

Brinkmun - 80 mage kills, 28 mage deaths. Warrior

Queliryon - 27 mage kills, 1 mage death. Warrior.

Jichii - 44 mage kills, 16 mage deaths. Bard.

Dyrin - 13 mage kills, 6 mage deaths. Warrior.

Ktaar - 32 mage kills, 2 mage deaths. Assassin.

Iia - 36 mage kills, 11 mage deaths. Druid

Drezen - 19 mage kills, 3 mage deaths. Warrior.

Hunsobo - 44 mage kills, 7 mage deaths. Warrior.

Dizrug - 14 mage kills, 2 mage deaths. Warrior

Alarith - 22 mage kills, 2 mage deaths. Assassin.

This just tells me that you haven't achieved this level of knowledge and skill, not that anything is overpowered.

There's logs on dio's of transmuters kicking much backside. They have to be overpowered despite what the numbers say.

Teutonium - 44 mage kills, 45 mage deaths. Warrior.
Villager
Jutunn - 54 mage kills, 18 mage deaths. Bard.
Cheap Bard.
Yazhmog - 21 mage kills, 0 mage deaths. Orc.
Don't know this one
Begelrut - 51 mage kills, 1 mage death. Warrior.
Villager
Brinkmun - 80 mage kills, 28 mage deaths. Warrior
Villager
Queliryon - 27 mage kills, 1 mage death. Warrior.
Don't know this one, prolly a villager
Jichii - 44 mage kills, 16 mage deaths. Bard.
Villager
Dyrin - 13 mage kills, 6 mage deaths. Warrior.
This is a good ratio
Ktaar - 32 mage kills, 2 mage deaths. Assassin.
Equipped to kill mages, even unscratchable ones with one assassinate
Iia - 36 mage kills, 11 mage deaths. Druid
Priests are supposed to be bad ass, they deserve it. Notice the number of deaths though
Drezen - 19 mage kills, 3 mage deaths. Warrior.

Hunsobo - 44 mage kills, 7 mage deaths. Warrior.
Super Power Players with full sets of elite gear not included.
Dizrug - 14 mage kills, 2 mage deaths. Warrior
Don't know this one either
Alarith - 22 mage kills, 2 mage deaths. Assassin.
Never heard of this one
This just tells me that you haven't achieved this level of knowledge and skill, not that anything is overpowered.


Let's do a count-8 Warriors, 2 Assassin, 1 priest, 2 Bards, 0 Thieves, 0 Rangers and no accounting for what happened after level 41. How come there aren't any rangers on that list? Also at least four were villagers who have been equiped to better stop mages. Spellbane's a #####.

I'm sorry, I fail to see your actual point. Killing mages at level 11-30 is NOT hard if you have a good set of gear or know how to bash.

Got that list for APs? How about Rangers? How about rangers WITHOUT scrolls and or bearcharge?

This brings me to another argument. If ONLY the elite veteran players can do it, is it REALLY balanced?

>Teutonium - 44 mage kills, 45 mage deaths. Warrior.
>Villager
>Jutunn - 54 mage kills, 18 mage deaths. Bard.
>Cheap Bard.
>Yazhmog - 21 mage kills, 0 mage deaths. Orc.
>Don't know this one
>Begelrut - 51 mage kills, 1 mage death. Warrior.
>Villager
>Brinkmun - 80 mage kills, 28 mage deaths. Warrior
>Villager
>Queliryon - 27 mage kills, 1 mage death. Warrior.
>Don't know this one, prolly a villager

Search is overpowered on the PBF. Elven warrior in Fortress.

>Jichii - 44 mage kills, 16 mage deaths. Bard.
>Villager
>Dyrin - 13 mage kills, 6 mage deaths. Warrior.
>This is a good ratio
>Ktaar - 32 mage kills, 2 mage deaths. Assassin.
>Equipped to kill mages, even unscratchable ones with one
>assassinate
>Iia - 36 mage kills, 11 mage deaths. Druid
>Priests are supposed to be bad ass, they deserve it. Notice
>the number of deaths though
>Drezen - 19 mage kills, 3 mage deaths. Warrior.
>
>Hunsobo - 44 mage kills, 7 mage deaths. Warrior.
>Super Power Players with full sets of elite gear not
>included.

Maybe that mage is a super power player with elite gear...does that make it different for you or are you now supporting what I originally stated?

>Dizrug - 14 mage kills, 2 mage deaths. Warrior
>Don't know this one either
>Alarith - 22 mage kills, 2 mage deaths. Assassin.
>Never heard of this one
>This just tells me that you haven't achieved this level of
>knowledge and skill, not that anything is overpowered.
>
>
>Let's do a count-8 Warriors, 2 Assassin, 1 priest, 2 Bards, 0
>Thieves, 0 Rangers and no accounting for what happened after
>level 41. How come there aren't any rangers on that list? Also
>at least four were villagers who have been equiped to better
>stop mages. Spellbane's a #####.

This list could get much larger, I just did a very quick and brief search of the last three months of players who have a PBF. Anybody can do it. If you had done it, you would realize that your post is kind of ridiculous. Spellbane is not all you think it is. Try playing a villager before you claim they are all that. But, just for giggles, here are some rangers that I know of off the top of my head that weren't villagers who seemed to have some solid game knowledge.

Nreisshe - 87 mage kills, 1 mage death. Ranger
Derasori - You will have to see for yourself if the PBF comes out. Ranger
Krynna - 31 mage kills, 6 mage deaths. Ranger
>
>I'm sorry, I fail to see your actual point. Killing mages at
>level 11-30 is NOT hard if you have a good set of gear or know
>how to bash.
>
>Got that list for APs? How about Rangers? How about rangers
>WITHOUT scrolls and or bearcharge?
And, how about all of the stats for mages who killed without using all of their spells and skills and how about all of the immortals who kill without using slay and all of the bunnies that don't use their lucky feet?
>
>This brings me to another argument. If ONLY the elite veteran
>players can do it, is it REALLY balanced?

Yes, it is balanced because the numbers for mages are just as equal. And I am sure if you reread everything you posted and take out all the ifs ands and buts of this thread, you will see that the balance is as good as it has ever been.

nt

I will give Nep the benefit of the doubt and say that he is a vet whether he played Q or not.

>I'm sorry, I fail to see your actual point. Killing mages at
>level 11-30 is NOT hard if you have a good set of gear or know
>how to bash.

That can't be right. I read where this guy said this:


No they aren't. An invoker can kill you with wall of fire from level 16 to 23 or so without much scare. I got beat by transmuters pretty regularly from 23 and up.


That being... you, two posts up.

This brings me to another argument. If ONLY the elite veteran players can do it, is it REALLY balanced?

If you're arguing for a game where terrible players can be just as effective as elite players, I recommend Rock/Paper/Scissors or coin flipping. Yes, in CF skilled players will roll you with any number of different classes. All that shows is that it's a game of skill and not luck.

Your original argument was that CF should be called "Mage Wars" because mages dominate everything. People showed you in various ways that this is something you pulled out of your hindquarters. You named three classes in particular, which all added to to a grand total of one character in the deadliest 25. That should tell you something.

So instead, everyone who is playing effective melee classes did it because of "gear", being "cheap", or a host of other excuses you have.

The simpler explanation: You aren't that good. That's fine. Most people aren't. But we're not going to make changes to the game because skilled players are doing well and you're running about 1:1 in PKs.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

nt

There are plenty of them in the PBF as well.

Of course a super prepped mage is gonna kill a less prepped warrior. What is important to remeber is that alot of preps is available to warriors aswell. I distinctly remember getting my ass kicked by warriors solo, even if I had Stoneform, ABS and such.

They also had preps. And LOTS of saves.

nt

You might as well change the name of the game to Mage Wars cause that's what it's become.

And it doesn't matter what kind of mage you are. Conjurers with angels, elementals, aura, barrier, shield can rip through anyone.

Number of unstoppable conjurers in the 25 deadliest PCs: 0

Invokers ABS + shields are unstoppable.

Number of unstoppable invokers in the 25 deadliest PCs: 0

Transmuters are unstoppable without another transmuter.

Number of unstoppable transmuters in the 25 deadliest PCs: 1 (#24)

(List of massive upgrades to rangers and warriors)

Number of underpowered warriors in the 25 deadliest PCs: 7
Number of underpowered rangers in the 25 deadliest PCs: 2

I'm sorry mages beat you up, but we'll postpone renaming the game "Mage Wars" for just a bit.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Number of unstoppable conjurers in the 25 deadliest PCs: 0

Kanaev didn't make the cut?

>Number of unstoppable invokers in the 25 deadliest PCs: 0

Or Ilivarra? Or hell, Dakizar (ignoring the shadiness)?

>Number of unstoppable transmuters in the 25 deadliest PCs: 1
> #24)

Enarn? Enbuergo's Scion was pretty nasty too, if I remember.

>Number of underpowered warriors in the 25 deadliest PCs: 7
>Number of underpowered rangers in the 25 deadliest PCs: 2

Just to play devil's advocate...it's possible that these two classes are well-suited to generating high kill counts by killing large numbers of newbies, in a way that mage classes aren't.

Also, you left off necros and anti-paladins who may have placed in the top 25. Cabdru's in for sure. Probably Palmer as well?

I was going over present pfiles for the list. Historical characters may or may not have been at the current level of power, etc.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Most PKs etc? Or best record. It would be interesting to see the numbers through the years.

Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.

while I probably more agree than disagree with the premise of the post, I disagree with many of the points you used in your post to get to that premise.

the last one, stopping spellcasting.

mace specs have cranial.

axe specs have pincer.


all specs can choose the drive-lag legecy (although relying on this for perma lag, I hear, is a BIG mistake)


anyway, the main reason I agree with your main premise, is the whole a/b/s thing.


I really dislike it. for a number of reasons, I'll outline two of them.

one, either a mage class is balanced without a/b/s, then because a/b/s is so much of an insane boost to dam redux, any mage class balanced without it is overpowered with it. Or...a mage class is balanced for a/b/s. Then, by the same token, they are way way underpowered without it.

if the first case is true, I believe a/b/s is far too prevalent, and should be more limited. if the second case is true, I believe a/b/s is far too limited, and should be easier to find.


a second reason, is that I don't buy that the whole argument the imms have given in the past for the existance of abs is the optimal solution.

one thing I've heard often in the past,was that there should be some sort of benefit to those people who explore, who actually read room descs, and can pick out details. so a/b/s is also so that area creators can feel like people are looking at their work, which isn't a bad idea.

neither the "benefit for exploration" or "benefit for actually looking at the author's work" are bad ideas.


what is a bad idea, is a benefit that only effects mages (and trap/poison thieves to some extend), and has the pwer/availability so messed up (in my opinion).


I think a better solution, would be to have secret items that can be eaten, or worn, or invoked, or quaffed, or whatever, that would give a timed, tangible benefit to one or more skills/spells or class of skills/spells.

the coding basis for this is actually already there, kinda.


imagine, a wearable amulet of living fire that gives invokers/ap's stronger fire spells that lives and dies quickly, so doesn't last forever

a rune a warrior can attach to his shoulders that makes flurry/drum more likely to hit 8/5 hits that drains of power over uses or time.

a special book that exists in both this plane and the negative material plane that can sometimes make people get poisoned when a necro using this book casts crimson scourge on them, but use destroys it's connection between planes over time.


an amulet that can store communes for 10 hours (think the WOT terangreals that could store the power...called wells). the pally/shaman/healer prays up to 5 communes into the amulet. Then, if in the net 10 hours he is worldbound he can invoke the amulet and get Lilo output from the amulet (last in, last out, is lilo).

some gnomish inventor has created magical/mechanical gloves that increase finger strength for a fraction of a second, but only works a few times before breaking. Allows disarm protection 2 times, or allows an assassin a boosted chance that strangle will work 5 times.


the options are endless. and, I don't see a problem with moving these around like a/b/s does when they need to change positions when things get too well known.

and, this gives warriors/ranger/assassins/shaman/etc a reason to explore too. instead of it just 95% being a mage thing to fine a/b/s now.


the current a/b/s system is also I believe the main reason why mages are more often considered overpowered, because of the reason above, and also indirectly.

because the a/b/s system is the only really major way the game rewards game knowledge and exploration, the veterancs, when they want to play a pk badass, nearly always pick mages, because they know that a/b/s offers such a HUGE advantage.

why not share the exploration benefit love a bit? if every class can benefit from exploration like mages can now, then veterans will have more class options to choose from when they want to use their years of exploration knowledge to create a badass.

>all specs can choose the drive-lag legecy (although relying on
>this for perma lag, I hear, is a BIG mistake)

As a warrior, bash is the only ability available that can lag your opponent indefinitely. (That is, always has a chance to be doable again before they get a command.)

>I really dislike it. for a number of reasons, I'll outline two
>of them.
>
>one, either a mage class is balanced without a/b/s, then
>because a/b/s is so much of an insane boost to dam redux, any
>mage class balanced without it is overpowered with it. Or...a
>mage class is balanced for a/b/s. Then, by the same token,
>they are way way underpowered without it.

Or, they're balanced to have it sometimes, and not have it sometimes.

>a second reason, is that I don't buy that the whole argument
>the imms have given in the past for the existance of abs is
>the optimal solution.

What you describe is a reason; it's not the only reason. You're too black and white.

Something else to consider is that other classes often benefit from other kind of gear more than, say, an invoker does. Cool mace? Well, either my mace warrior or my invoker could wield it, but which one's probably getting more mileage out of it? In similar vein, for many different builds of warriors I can make arguments for gearing for damage, hitroll, hit points, saves, str, dex, even armor quality, etc... pretty much anything but mana. Mage gearing is typically much more limited in the number of different things that are a good idea, so in a sense, A/B/S helps equal out their exploring value.

>>one, either a mage class is balanced without a/b/s, then
>>because a/b/s is so much of an insane boost to dam redux, any
>>mage class balanced without it is overpowered with it. Or...a
>>mage class is balanced for a/b/s. Then, by the same token,
>>they are way way underpowered without it.

>Or, they're balanced to have it sometimes, and not have it sometimes.

Huh? If A/S/B are readily available to a character, they are going to use them in pretty much every fight they get into. The only fights I can think of where they wouldn't, would be surprise attacks from characters they cannot see coming.

I see it pretty black and white, too. You either have A/S/B or you don't. When you have it, you're superbly survivable, even under some seriously bad odds. Or you don't have it, and you pretty much don't stand a chance. I can't remember a recent fight I've been in with a/s/b and felt like I couldn't win, or at the very least, get away alive. Then I've been on the flip side of that coin, and felt, why even bother fighting this mage when I'm hitting them with an offense form that normally does DEMISH for regular hits, but its now doing mauls/decimates?

Do you think the current system is perfect or something? Did you design it and just don't want to admit it has its (serious) flaws?

>Huh? If A/S/B are readily available to a character, they are
>going to use them in pretty much every fight they get into.
>The only fights I can think of where they wouldn't, would be
>surprise attacks from characters they cannot see coming.

Know where to get it doesn't necessarily equate to readily available.

Beyond that I'll only add:

1) Lots of things happen that you don't plan for, and

2) The most efficient killers don't throw their full prep wack at every fight they get into. This is both because you can't manage much killing when you're spending most of your life farming preps, and because most people can tell when they're badly outclassed in the DR department and just choose not to fight. It's very hard to kill someone who knows early on they should make a run for it.

>Do you think the current system is perfect or something? Did
>you design it and just don't want to admit it has its
> serious) flaws?

It's like democracy, in that it's not perfect, just the best that's ever existed or been proposed so far. Beyond that, I'm not interested in having the same argument as to why again.

>Do you think the current system is perfect or something? Did
>you design it and just don't want to admit it has its
> serious) flaws?

I designed it. <sarcasm>I think it's perfect, and has zero flaws!</sarcasm> Actually, you and I would differ about what flaws it does have, but Nep basically said it best: It's the best system we've had so far.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

> Mage gearing is typically much more
>limited in the number of different things that are a good
>idea, so in a sense, A/B/S helps equal out their exploring
>value.
>


ok, I might buy this argument. if the benefit derived was somewhat equivalent in any way.


besides one or two HIGHLY limited items, there are no pieces of gear or weapons that would by themsleves change that 3 person fight for a solo warrior from a guaranteed corpse run to a You 3 can't kill me without help or even a I PWN YOU ALL. Barrier alone can do that, let alone adding in as.


sure, there are sets of eq that can do that for melee classes. all higly limited, so only a few melee characters at all will have enough of these pieces at the same time to turn them into juggernauts. sometimes none will have enough of them.

but, for mages, once you find YOUR barrier....you can always get it. it might be had, it might take help, but it will always be there.


that's like every warrior having a specific location for strange bracers, in my opinion. there is a reason why things like strange bracers or that mask that lets you see hidden, or the cloak that saves you from pk, or the shin guards that make you immune to trip, or the amulets that heal you.....there are reasons those things are limited.

in a very real sense, a/b/s isn't limited.

A warrior that takes the time to gather aura + shield + stone skin + protection align becomes a monster. That is leaving out any other preps that I have seen being used by warriors that would either be for a specific fight or are beyond my n00bish game knowledge.

Being that aura and shield are out there for everyone, for the most part, when we talk about mages and wands we're really talking about barrier.

Most of the time when I kill someone, doubling the amount of damage they could absorb wouldn't save their life. Barrier isn't even enough DR to do that.

It was my character Victoria that people were saying was overpowered and needed ganking etc.

Guess who killed me? One solo character. Not a mage. Not a gang.

How? By using proper tactics instead of focussing on damage.

Sounds to me as if you are a ranger. In which case, a clean pk record up to level 37 is nothing remarkable at all, since lots of characters will die outright to your ambush.

Quite possibly an animist. If so, you have a great toolkit for killing transmuters. But you are not going to do it without fleeing a few times if they started the fight. Wasps alone will do wonders for you, but primordial vengeance is also good.

I'd like to see barrier and haste removed and deathblow toned down, with ragers getting to choose an extra legacy each (including non-warriors).

Barrier enables people to kill without skill. If it stays in, I'd like to see it add a round of lag to every skill or spell used by the barriered character.

That said, I've won every fight against magi with my current non mage character, despite them having more raw power.

Anything can beat anything, if the player is better enough.

Note that even this doesn't mean "will beat every time."

If I saw the transmuter/ranger fight you described, I'd say to myself: This ranger player is terrible, or, this transmuter player is really good, or possibly some combination of the two. If the transmuter actually got the kill without landing a super-neuro, I'd know that either the skill deficit was immense (e.g., your favorite NFL franchise vs. your favorite junior high B-string football team in tackle football) or the ranger made one or most likely several serious mistakes.

I shall post the log if/when everyone is toast.

The transmuter is good though. Can't argue that. The ranger had time to act after the bioluminescence and up until the neurological disruption. I personally haven't been killed by a solo transmuter, but aside from the time I got an unspeak on my ambush, I haven't come close killing one either. I shall post that log too when that transmuter kicks the bucket.

Anyhow, I just wanted to hear people's opinions. I know the combo I picked isn't a power combo, it looked fun so I went with it. It was fun. It is fun. It's also frustrating as hell.

But my logs would show transmuters parry &/or avoid around 80% of the regular melee attacks tossed their way. That's about as good a defense as many a warrrior.

So the questions become - are my numbers too low a sample set to be indicative of anythong other than the vagaries of the RNG, is 80% about right in the way of defended attacks, if accurate is that a bit higher than team balance thinks it should be, or lastly, would team balance think it too low?

Depending on the circumstances... a transmuter with a staff hasted and with their opponent slowed, it wouldn't surprise me a ton.

That being said, if the staff comes out of their hands, 100% of that tanking goes away instantly. (For example.) A warrior, especially one focused on defense in one way or another, is rarely if ever that one move away from tanking like a barn.

good luck removing that staff before you're stunned into helplesness.



and outmeleed.

I can't think of a polite way to tell you that you have no idea what you're talking about.

So:

You have no idea what you're talking about.

I dunno man

It just seems like with all the logs I see ( and to a lesser extent, personal experience), most all of the input skills get maelbility dodged or evaded.

When you only have 1 or 2 chances to -str a transmuter into dropping his staff (since they have spiderhands) before you get neuro'd into helplessness...
just dosent seem like "making them drop staff through -str which most people cant output enough" seem a valid counter to the currently buffed transies.

shrug

It just seems like with all the logs I see ( and to a lesser extent, personal experience), most all of the input skills get maelbility dodged or evaded.

1) I'm sorry, but even arial transmuter (not at all a common choice) with all the edges and beneficial effects possible in the game can't get to 50%, by a comfortable margin. That's assuming you haven't gone after their DEX at all. Evade in particular isn't very impressive on a class that lacks the skill.

2) Where are all these dominant transmuters? I can locate one with more than a couple dozen kills. I can do that for most any class, so that doesn't strike me as important.

When you only have 1 or 2 chances to -str a transmuter into dropping his staff (since they have spiderhands) before you get neuro'd into helplessness...

3) If you're getting frozen, save vs. paralysis is the answer. It may mean sacrificing damage or other bonuses.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

"If you're getting frozen, save vs. paralysis is the answer."

I don't think it's ever been spelled out in black and white before, I wasn't sure if it was cf-myth or not.

I'm fairly certain its been spelled out in black and white more than once before. Save vs. paralysis helps with saving against paralysis.

If it came out perjoratively, or evoked a negative response from you, I'm sorry. It has never been crystal clear to me that neuro is equivalent to paralysis. Maybe I'm thin skinned, &/or misinterpreting your post, but there's no need to be a jerk about it if that was what you were going for.

Does Resist Mental help with neuro at all? Damage reduct and/or hidden help vs paralysis?

Without looking at the code, I'm pretty sure neuro is mental damage, so, yes, resist mental would cut that down.

That being said, if you're even seeing caps damage off of neuro, you're most likely dealing with Psyche Crush. (Read up on that one, you might or might not be able to do something about it.)

The only problem I ever had as a player of a transmuter was that if someone had a 5+ level deficit they were dead 90% of the time from perma-freeze, regardless of saves. Waaay too easy.

Any chance that level difference versus violent neuro check could be looked at or do you think it is fine?

This works pretty much like any spell in the game, with the exception of the type of save. Odds are you're just fighting people who aren't gearing/prepping for paralysis at all.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

From what I've seen personally the problem isn't either defensive spin, or parry. The problem is actually mallability.

As it stands now you can accelerate and take some fancy muter edges based on accelerate I don't know HOW much these help over all but I tanked pretty fiercly as Rhyendris with a staff and accelerate.

Really this all stands up pretty good, considering when you run out of movement your parry/spin goes to absolute garbage. However Malability continues to work full force and as a 24 dex race thats pretty fair number of attacks it'll cover, when you should actually in reality probably be losing the battle since your sub 0 mvs and tanking more than one person in the logs I've been seeing that everyones screaming OMG overpowered over.

So I mean if you take any intrest at all, in this brief OMG transmuters are over powered fad.
Poke malability in conjuction with 0 mvs and accelerate, it really doesn't look to me like accelerate and 0mvs play any part in its strength.

And not just different variations of warriors. I think the game is pretty well balanced up through the levels and at hero. I have found with each different combination I play, there are certain things that give me a harder time than others. However, most of the time with those other combinations that are giving me a hard time I just need to manufacture a situation that is more advantageous either through terrain, timing, or a prep I wasn't using before. I don't think I've ever seen anyone that I thought was just outright "unbeatable".

The thing I don't like at the moment is the amount of escapes there are that I've seen in circulation. Orbs of travel and cloaks of displacement (I only mention these two because they are the ones I know aren't limited but there are others). Ugh.

FYI, cloaks are limited. Quite, in fact.

>But mages are weaker at the low levels and they reap the
>rewards of their work in the later ranks!
>
>No they aren't. An invoker can kill you with wall of fire from
>level 16 to 23 or so without much scare. I got beat by
>transmuters pretty regularly from 23 and up. So what you have
>is a melee class getting out melee'd by a mage, and THEN the
>mage gets protections and then you don't have a hope in hell
>of doing ANY damage to them at all.


I will tell you this much a lot of what I see in transmuter logs where people spam overpowered is just poor choice of tactics. Do I think that perhaps some of their stuff needs looking at? Maybe.. i think spell cost is a big down side of a transmuter.. Make them use up that mana they cant do much after that.


>Where do characters spend the majority of their life? At the
>hero ranks, and at that level is where it should be balanced.
>You HAVE to gang people now because that's the only way you
>can deal enough damage to kill anyone. It's sad. This used to
>be a fun game at hero. I'm beginning to remember why I quit
>playing.


In all honestly from what I am reading so far it sounds like you quit playing cause you suck and not because of the balance. I know that sounds a little harsh but eh it is what it is.


>And it doesn't matter what kind of mage you are. Conjurers
>with angels, elementals, aura, barrier, shield can rip through
>anyone. Invokers ABS + shields are unstoppable. Transmuters
>are unstoppable without another transmuter. At least the
>shapeshifters aren't the uber-ridiculously powerful zoo they
>were when I was Trewyn. They aren't far from that though.


Define anyone... I've killed tons of conjurers with angels and elementals, demons and elementals, devils and elementals... with my last warrior (Bhirerzu) I pretty much pwned any mage at will. Conjurers with archons give everyone trouble but thats how they are supposed to be. And you are on crack if you think that shapeshifters are weaker now than they used to be. Shapeshifters just got a HUGE boost and they are deadlier now than they have ever been in cf.


>So to combat this situation the imms have increased the amount
>of damage warriors do. Which screws ANYONE without damage
>reduction. Flurries can do 600 points of damage. And don't
>tell me they don't do that often. I haven't been hit for one
>that did less than 300 in a LONG time except by head hunters
>with one sword. I had one dish out 600 points of damage
>through aura and protection and possibly even shield I can't
>remember. If I didn't have those protections it would have
>killed me outright from full health. It DID kill me anyways. I
>went from 100 hp less than full to 26 hp. Dagger spec bleeding
>can cause over 100 hps of bleeding per round for 6-8 rounds.
>At least the leader of battle can cause that much. That's a
>LOT of damage. I remember the gripe-fest people made when that
>bug caused impale damage to deal a demolish every round when I
>was trewyn. Oh how I understand that now.


So now we went from a mags are overpowerd to sword spec and dagger specs are over powered rant. Again I am begining to see a pattern in this post. Anything that kills you must be overpowered... hmmm right then. What about assassins taht can kill you without even hiting you? Rangers that can do 600 hp ambushes over powered? Shaman rot overpowered? Paladin 2hdr with 3 strikes connecting? AP with a buff unholy weapon? Necro with sleep? You see where I am going with this? Bard with fiend? My point is it at any given point on any given day there is someone or something out there that has your number thats cf thats how its designed to be. The opposite is also true when playing a specific class/race/cabal there is always someone out there that has your number.


>
>Another thing that irritates me are the "you can't beat me"
>situations. If you can't beat someone 100% of the time in a
>certain situation, then that is NOT balanced. Balanced is you
>win around half the time, and in a positive situation, you win
>better than half, but not more than three fourths. It's a
>GAME, not Real Life, not even an imitation of real life and it
>should be balanced at all levels, not the power swing system
>in place now.

I could'nt beat Cabdru with my lich a 100% of the time and I was an effin lich. Does that mean aps are overpowered? Or does that mean Nepenthe is...I'm leaning towards nep on this one. Balance isnt flipping a coin and deciding hey half the time I win half the time other guy wins.

>The game was fun back when an unspeakable damage was only
>possible from a backstab or the occasional ambush or when you
>broke heartseeker the unbreakable dagger in someone's chest. I
>can't say all the changes have been bad, the game is
>definately different and unique. But in my humble opinion, it
>was a lot more fun in the second and third ages. I prefer less
>of the easter egg hunt and more of the run and gun bash splash
>blood, whoops I died get some basic gear and get back with it
>attitude that was in place then.


Wow all I can say about this is that we probably were'nt playing the same game back then. I sure as #### remember a hella lot of unspeaks flying by my screen back then too.


>I'm just curious if I'm the ONLY one that feels ABS is ####. I
>would LOVE to hear an Imm's opinion on this.



This subject has been hashed and rehashed so many times its not even funny. I would be thoroughly surprised if an imm responds to this. I think they are about as sick of responding to it as most players are hearing about it.


>To combat this if you feel it's NECESSARY to keep ABS, then I
>suggest some simple changes.
>
>Make it so melee classes get a BIGGER boost to HP, 1-2 per
>level. Then make it so giant classes get an additional 1-5 hp
>per level, regardless of class. Make it so that the average
>player has 1000 hp at hero and a high HP class having 2000 hp.
>And then you can add something like fast healing II for
>warriors but call it something catchy.


Its called equipment if you want more hps wear hp eq. Thats one of the things about cf it is completely customizable. Do you really think that giving someone like Hunsobo 2000 base hps would have made this game any more fair?


>On top of this, have the number of unspeaks possible drop or
>make it so they can't cast the spells so fast. As it stands,
>most ranger spells except for entangle can be cast once for
>two of every mage class spells. Make it so fights last more
>than 8 rounds.


I am not even sure what you are trying to say here so I won't even bothr trying to respond.


>Another way to combat this is make spells fail just like
>skills, or not so often. That to me would balance the game out
>a LOT. Make it possible to simply miss with that fireball, or
>that lightning bolt and wall of fire at least.

Graatch has hashed and rehashed this multiple times.Go back and read up on what he said and immortal response it makes a lot of sense.


>Give shield to rangers like they used to have. OR just give it
>to the animists. They get screwed on the combat and their mage
>spells hardly make up for it. It easily fits within the role
>play.

This is a specific change to your character, a change you think is required to make the char more competetive. Cf doesnt work like that there is shield available in game to rangers. Use it.


>OR Give warriors some way to stop spell casting other than
>dagger specs. Maybe have evasion work for spells. You duck
>behind your tower shield and absorb the blast from XXX's
>fireball.

Warriors have multiple ways to stop casting and a lot of use it with a fair amount of success. I personally think that duration on hurl throat is completely bunk all it does it put an end to the fighting. A lot of what you are suggesting for warriors already exists in the form of battleragers. But you seem to be one of those have your cake and eat it too types. If you are so antimagic roll a rager and slap them around ive seen it done repeatedly.


>So now that I'm done venting and being frustrated, I want to
>hear some other opinions on what ever about Game Balance.

A lot of what you are complaining about frustrations about your characters sucking. I've been here before MANY MANY times but instead of taking it out on the game I just admit the fact that the char im playing is not turning out the way I had hoped. You can do one of two things delete and make something else or keep trucking and hope things start rolling in your direction.

I don't feel like quoting, but my point was that the amount of damage dealt has increased. When I first started playing, you were big mojo bad ass if you could deal a demolish in combat without a special move. Now that's pretty common. Granted that was back when you learned on gnolls west of midgaard.

Secondly, I said that at least shifters weren't as uper powerful as they were when I was trewyn, you read that backwards.

To clarify again, my gripe was the ease it is to dish out 500+ unspeaks WHILE protected and taking only mauls and hits. I find any character that can take on 3 players to be unbalanced.

Anyways, you're largely right. What frustrates me is I kicked a tremendous amount of ass as a 11-40, then at 41 hero mages started royally kicking my ass. Then I watched a couple of trannies solo groups of three which has me flipping coins on my next character after I abandon yet another hero. I was on BOTH sides of those fights at separate times I got both the benefits and the rewards.

So I can't argue with your saying I suck, which that may be a possibility. But I had a 10-0 solo record till I hit 37 and and who knows how many ganks. I DIDN'T die until I reached 37 so to me that's not sucking. And while I've only been playing again for about three months, I have already found prety much the playerbase knowledge of wands and shield items, not hard to do. I DO know how to use them. That sword spec did 600 points of damage THROUGH protections with a single flurry. And I fought him with another character and he did the exact same thing, though a 600hp flurry isn't going to kill that guy.

>I don't feel like quoting, but my point was that the amount
>of damage dealt has increased. When I first started playing,
>you were big mojo bad ass if you could deal a demolish in
>combat without a special move. Now that's pretty common.
>Granted that was back when you learned on gnolls west of
>midgaard.

We must have run with different crowds. Back in the day a decent giant warrior started to throw demolishes with normal hits in the teens.

>Secondly, I said that at least shifters weren't as uper
>powerful as they were when I was trewyn, you read that
>backwards.

>To clarify again, my gripe was the ease it is to dish out 500+
>unspeaks WHILE protected and taking only mauls and hits. I
>find any character that can take on 3 players to be
>unbalanced.

Three things here:

First, how's the transmuter doing that much damage? It's

A) The victim doesn't have any/much DR going

B) The victim's saves are ass

C) The fight's gone on long enough for the transmuter to sneak soften/decalcify in there (and the victim's failed saves against them; see: B)

Or more likely, all of the above.


Second, kind of going back to my above post... anyone can take on three characters if the three characters fight like idiots. I'm not saying a good transmuter might not be able to take a run at three people on a good day... but in every "OMG transmuters are tough look at one fight all these people" log I've seen posted anywhere recently... the opponents are using terrible, and I mean terrible tactics.

Third, different classes are capable of different things. A prepared high level transmuter who knows his opponents and has chosen his setup (e.g., malleability vs. corporeal hardening, etc.) intelligently is a great pick of character to fight three and survive. It also should have absolutely no chance to kill any of the three, unless, again, the three fight like retarded children who are also drunk and high.