with 20 int 22wis

i see striking once out of 40 rounds of combat.
and since the tweak I have not seen 2 counts on anything.


fire giants and duergs I get 1 single count after 15-25 rounds ???

Is this normal ?
is this how its supposed to work now ?

more slowly of late.

Also seems like the tiers now wear off after a time and you have to relearn them.

I agree these seem like they were good tweaks for the legacy, but might have been over done? It seems to build up a little too slowly and wear off a little too quickly to me.

--Nightshade

Again last night, fighting 8 foes at once for about 14 rounds it went off once.

I just dont get it.

even against duerg I get 1 count per every 15-25 rounds

I just think that something is wrong... *shrug*

No offense or anything man, but I would never ever ever ever take STSF with 20 int 22 wis. I think your expectations are unreasonable in this case. Yes, 15 - 25 seems excessively long for one echo, but I also wouldn't expect one more than every 8 ish rounds with those two stats.

I don't think number of foes is relevant really, but if anything might actually make STSF work less well. Unable to study your opponent(s) well in the battle chaos, etc. Still, one tier against one opponent out of eight in fourteen rounds is absurdly slow.

I certainly don't find the legacy useless (changed or not) with what I'm currently playing, just observing that I've noticed things seemed to have "slowed down" with STSF on the whole. Maybe a little too much, but only a little if so.

I don't think you have any business having STSF without 21+ int and wis both. At least one of those at 23+ is a BIG help too. Besides elves and dark elves, arials and gnomes can get away with it for various reasons, but that's about all in my opinion. Even for those two, I think it largely depends on your 2nd legacy choice to make or break you.

With any other race you're wasting a legacy choice, or at the very least could pick something much better. It reminds me of Trapping on a high str non giant. Sure you can make it work with the right combo, but a giant just rocks way more with it.

--Nightshade

the legacy when first created was (as in the helpfile) based soley off of wisdom. It was ment for gnomes and svirf and stuff like that, or so it was helpfiled to hint at. Sure Int seemed to help too but now it seems like wisdom has nothing to do with it.


Now I understand, when I first had the legacy, I was picking up 2 counts on avg ever 5 rounds and some times more. It was like every 1.788 rounds I would get a count.

That made it silly.

Then they tweaked it a little it slowed down. It was about 1 count per ever 4.5 rounds roughly give or take a round


now its 1 every 14+ rounds

with the exception of chars age and amount of fighting... nothing has changed...

oh and per your group vs thing, your wrong in my experiance. I have had counts from 3 chars in one round when i first had the legacy that I think might of been buggy or just a lil unfair but I just dont see how this legacy even makes sense now.

every elf and drow warrior playing now is STSF when there was maybe 1 elf when I first took it. the amount of drow and elves that are pimping it out now outweigh the gnome/svirfs that took it when everyone cried overpowered 15 to 1.

I can name 3 chars that were either gnome or svirf who had this legacy and did some mean ass kicking with it since the start of legacys.

now I cant name a single elf or drow that doesnt have the legacy at all in the last 5 months...

again, I am now all that concerned with it anymore I just kinda think that with what everyoen else is saying about there counts... its just me thats broken

when I am gone I will post logs back to back of before and after the change, then I will post of the last few fights of my days and people will see that it went from nasty, to oh thats useful to, woah wait this dude has that legacy, I didnt even notice cus it only went off once in 50 rounds of combat...

again I hope people dont think I am pissing and moaning about it, my char has had a long enough life to enjoy its ups and downs, but I am just looking for opinions and possiable explinations to why it now is seemingly lost in combat

>the legacy when first created was (as in the helpfile) based
>soley off of wisdom.

This has never been true, FYI.

nt

--Nightshade

reading over that I felt like a dip #### hehe

I didnt mean that it was only wis that affected it but to my knowladge it was always heavy wis some int now it seems a role reversal or something huge int and wee little wis, kinda like mana gains. or in my head anyway haha

its late. this may be delierious

oh and my spelling and grammar suck

Take it like a man.

The legacy was never wis based.

If you were running it at 20 int and had the kind of success you did, then it was tweaked too far for the upscale.

As for the legacy itself... let it go the way of Cry and Mercy.

Skills nerfed into the ground are better for the game than left alone.

I think your auctually wrong.

I said it was soely based off of wis, he said it was DEF NOT 100% wis.

I looked over it and said uhh whopse not 100% wis but it was def weighted by Wis

he didnt respond and say no no it was never anything to do with wis...

because your wrong it def had wis weighted into it rather heavily. obviously not 100% wis but def a good chunk

Of a pure factless speculation.
All the numbers come out directly from your head. Or ass.

Let me preface this by saying I can't believe I have to take the time to break this down for you. Everyone I've talked to always speaks highly of you as a skilled player, and I would hope someone like you would be able to use my post to expand and improve their own working game knowledge.

Whether you like the way I present information or not, I promise my posts on gameplay stuff are always intended to be useful and to level the playing field by disseminating information to the players. This happens to be a point I consider my self well versed on.

First, I am making a lot of unquantified observations sure. The numbers I mentioned (21+ and 23+) were not selected at random, but I'm not going in to why I picked them as the exact values are probably the least important part of the post. I don't really crunch numbers so much as I observe trends in skill behavior and then try to deduce the structure of the underlying function.

For CF we must make a few basic assumptions. These are the ones I use, and I don't care if you agree or not. They have served me well over the years:

1) Most functions in CF ARE functions in that they pass the ever popular vertical line test when a single variable is altered (but not necessarily two).

2) Most functions in CF behave asymptotically at extremes, meaning that things are rarely ever 100% certain, or 0% certain. I further assume that good coding prevents anyone from altering one or more variables in the function such that the 0-and-100 barrier is never breached (what most people refer to as a "cap").

3) In light of the previous two assumptions, the theories of Calculus apply to CF.

Once you know how a function behaves according to some baseline (you know, from the experiments you did while PLAYING the combo right?) you can tweak the factors in the function individually to determine how they are weighted. Again, you really don't care about the numbers X and Y themselves, but how they altar the equation as a whole.

The goal here is rather to be able to say something like X has a greater effect than Y, which has about twice the effect of Z.

The basic tenants of mathematics determine this. Whether each factor is added in, multiplied by something, or has any coefficients, are all of particular interest. Also whether a particular factor is taken in to account early or toward the end of the calculation weighs in heavily.

Do this until you run out of things you think are likely to affect the skill and then you have a really good functional knowledge of your skill/legacy whatever.

In the case of STSF, it's two major factors are readily identifiable as Int and Wis. Minimal further experimentation suggests that the equation as a whole behaves in a very linear-seeming fashion during the early stages. One now only needs to know whether Int affects the slope of the line more sharply than Wis does. This is easy enough to vary and test.

Once this is done, you can actually take your observations and build a function you think is pretty close. From there you could do some nasty Calculus on it, solve for some things based on your data, calculate points of inflection, zones of concavity, and min/max values, but I've never found that to be necessary -- having a picture of general behavior and variable weight is plenty. After all, it's just a game.

In my observations, again without quantification of how much more because I think if you want to know that much you should do it yourself, Int seems to have more bearing on STSF than Wis. Hence why I would never play a low Int/high Wis race with the legacy. I would be much more likely, however, to play a high Int/low Wis race with STSF, but CF doesn't really have one of those.

Now, being that I think my criteria analysis for STSF is really good, 21+ is what I'd consider the bare minimum to even consider it. This is not to say there aren't other factors that would still make STSF a piss poor choice with those stats, but they aren't directly related to building the legacy up.

I've had two characters with Striking now. My opinion is not totally uninformed. If you think I'm out of left field, then by all means form your own (valid) opinion. Otherwise, blow it out your ass.

--Nightshade

Totally ignoring the parts you put in there to make yourself look smart, the truth is that the functions which represent CF's behavior are tweaked too often to gain incredibly meaningful insight into how many things work and additionally are blackboxed (you don't know that any given action alters only one variable).

I tend to stick with the motto that unless its easily observable, its not worth data mining, in regards to CF. Here's an example, race and int/wis are related in a general sense, but that isn't to say some high int/wis races aren't given an additional boost over others. It wouldn't be worth it to verify all the variables. That's what Dwoggurd means. You can't possibly know the magic number is 21+/20+ and be certain that you're aware of the entire scenario.

You can't guarantee single variable alterations because you don't know what tweaks what variable, only the part of that process you can readily obvserve. Hence you're pulling those numbers out of your ass, since, while they weren't arbitrarily chosen, they aren't the result of any sort of conclusive analsysis. More like educated guesses, which are still guesses.

bringing up your point with out all the smack talking...

I am trying to get everyones ideas and versions of whats going on so I know what to base my experiance on. I am not looking to complain or turn this into a flame fest.

Take that #### to "that other forum"
cus no one wants it here.

Hopefully someone didn't go rogue and take it upon themselves to nerf it without talking to the rest of the staff or making an announcement. If it did get nuked, everyone might start playing fire giants, svirfneblins, and duergars again.

Hasn't changed as far as I know in a long time.

as of about a week ago I noticed a drastic increase in the time between learns. With 24 int 21 wis I went from seeing at worst one observe in 3 rounds to that becoming the average. Not that I think the slow down for higher int races is bad but just saying I am fairly sure its been too consistant to simply be a lot of bad rng.

the change isnt new, i have just been trying to test out all sorts of options with it.

I have come to the conclusion that I think something is wrong... or I would never pick that legacy again hehe

I mean I just see no real point at all for any "wise" race to pick it anymore if it is doing what it is supposed to do, and I am seeing one count every 25 rounds against "stupid" "unwise" races...

again this is not a complaint mearly just tyring to figure out if its a buggy thing or if I just seeing "works as its ment to" type thing that I need to come to terms with

thanks for the replys though

asdf

So as there has been no known change to this code. Maybe players are seeing a difference based on one a certain edge or combination of edges and/or two other players adapting to the popularity of this legacy. Just something to think about before claiming it's been nerfed.

that there has not been a chance in this legacy since I had it. Edges are said to give a slight bonus... this slight + should sure as hell not negate a legacy completely, which if it is the case of everyone I fight having the edge, it does.

Now to say that there hasnt been a change in the past 2-3 weeks is one thing, to say since my char reached 44 and took the legacy just seems like utter b.s.

I mean if this is all because of the edge, then that edge needs to be re-evaulated cus it has completely negated a legacy at the cost of some explore and barter exp...

Again I dont bring all this up to stir dramma, just looking for a good discussion on the concept.

Now to say that there hasnt been a change in the past 2-3 weeks is one thing, to say since my char reached 44 and took the legacy just seems like utter b.s.

Code changes get logged, and people don't change the code without some level of cross-check with other staff. We can't have a discussion about changes if none of us can find them.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Why isn't a possiblity that your edge in question is broken?
And is currently firing full time for everyone on the mud, as though they had selected the edge? I mean what that could be ONE freaking symbol, or bad logic or just a plain old typo, thats all it would take to cause a problem so wide spread and so noticably drastic.
Especially since you guys have openly declaired most edges are 1 to 2 lines of code, its even more plausable cause it means your stamping them out factory style. Hell I even bet you guys copy and paste the basic checks involving your edges.



Because I promise you, It is most definatly different.
Roll a striking a warrior and test it pref a dark-elf warrior fight some elf warriors. Notice how slowly it builds against this high int warrior now.
Then, search through QHCF and find my logs, as Delakan fightning Rienes and a few other elves all at the same time.
You will notice quite clearly that striking is firing at the very least twice as slow now compartivly.

If its not a code change to striking, you guys did something.
Code doesn't just change itself.

Thanks for your time,

Actually it has been stated that an edge that combats only one specific thing will prove quite effective (say the anti-kot edge), whilst ones that combat lots of things (say the anti-ko edge) will be less effective.

The anti stsf edge combats two things only, I think, so probably would be quite effective.

Actually it has been stated that an edge that combats only one specific thing will prove quite effective (say the anti-kot edge), whilst ones that combat lots of things (say the anti-ko edge) will be less effective.

Beyond that, any countermeasure is generally of greater magnitude than a standard skill/Edge/whatever because it's reactive rather than proactive.

For example, let's say you have an anti-knockout Edge. Even that has to be pretty good against knockout, because many opponents (a majority of PCs and a large majority of NPCs) will never attempt to knock you out, and the Edge is absolutely useless against them. Compare this to "I am good at knocking people out.", which the user can use against most opponents. Therefore, the countermeasure Edge has to be one or more of:

1) Very good against its counter.
2) Easy/cheap to obtain.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Not everyone I fight has the edge, people have said I wish I had that edge, thinking that I was stacking counts against them, when I wasnt it was just impale hamstring vital (with out them dropping weapons) but ####ing up there hit damn dex ext that made it seem like I was getting +'s left and right when I only got 1 count the whole fight...

I dont think that those people who say things like that say so to trick me into thinking my legacy or the edge it self has a problem but I guess Its possiable.

Again I am spimply stating that my current char was getting 1 count every 3.5 rounds avg when I took the legacy, no matter who was around. when the edge first came out it still was that way. now everysingle person I fight no matter how long I fight them only gets 1 count max.

in the last 30 pk fights I have been in, I have not gotten 2 counts from anyone... and I am fighting ALOT of different people.

If every single one of them has the edge, then ####, I give up... hahaha

I am not saying anyones doing anything shady, or that there is any conspicercy or trickery or hidding agenda.. I am just saying that something is obviously VERY VERY different... and I wanted to have everyones opinion to see if its just me or all of us and if its all of us then why ?

and again, I understand the edge helping alot against one specfifc thing, but if its the edge that does what I am expericencing, then one EASY *and i say easy cus its easy to get if you want it* edge completely utterly negates a full and already limited *to pk use only* legacy.

not sure if that was ment for show or not.. but

The knock out edge, has been deemd "completely a waste of edgepoints" as in it didnt do nearly anything in the way of stopping jacking but that is just what alot people say, I have no idea having never taken it.

As for the anti-striking edge I would assume that its high point value ? but even if it is, It is designed to work against something that a very very small % of people have, so by your theory it should work good against those % lets say 1 out of every 10 people in your pk has it just for arguement sake.

so it should work really well if your going to spend the points cus your only picking it for that one person really...

now take it form the other side... your spending a LEGACY 1 of 2 for the most part on a skill that is supposed to help you agains only people in your pk... with current counts maybe there is 10-15 people in your pk at all times

out of all the things your guna fight all the time, and the weight of a legacy against the weight of an edge I just dont see that rule being fair....

someone chooses a major building block of there char (legacy) and you negate it (or nearly negate it) by choosing something that you can essentially earn by bartering enough or buying enough heals from the healer in galadon...

and its available to everyone in the game to negate your legacy with not much effort (some effort but not really at hero to build up some #### to get that edge)

but I am curious as to your thoughts on this. I mean I could be misunderstanding what your saying or just wrong about my line of thought.

Thanks

I was talking about a hypothetical Edge, to demonstrate the broader point that reactive abilities are inherently less useful than equal-but-opposite proactive ones.

The rest of your post is pretty hard to follow, but I didn't mention Legacies at all.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

and again, I understand the edge helping alot against one specfifc thing, but if its the edge that does what I am expericencing, then one EASY *and i say easy cus its easy to get if you want it* edge completely utterly negates a full and already limited *to pk use only* legacy.

from my first post sums up what I ment though.


easy edge > legacy

Just the balance I though was strange

Easy edge is only greater than legacy (if we accept that to be the case at all) against characters with that legacy and assassins. Against anyone else it does nothing.

The legacy, on the other hand, works against everyone who doesn't have that edge (i.e. most people, I'd guess).

anyone can get the edge easy enough...

but a legacy should be hard as hell to counter, because its one of the only thing that makes a warrior competitive at hero now days...

Legacys make warriors edges shouldnt make chars impervious to legacys.. help against them sure but not negate them imho

but lately I have noticed that some things have kind of rebounded.
I been getting more counts lately (still not alot or even considerable amount hehe) but more then before thats for sure... maybe it was RNG but I went about 22 fights in a row at one point all over 8 rounds with not a single count... one fight went on crazy long with a duerg and no count so i figured I would post something...

I am glad for the most part eveyone kept civil and this has been informational at the very least