I'd like to do a hypothetical, based on reality.

Me, I'm not a pk god. Sure, I can hold my own usually, but I have *NEVER* been a prep whore.

If I roll an ap, and someone else rolls the same Ap, but they know how to get their A/B/S at 36, sure they are going to kill an assload more than me.

Heck, I used to know a shield and an aura source, neither of which were in more than three times the last time I had a mage char. And both of which need 40+ levels to get.


So, If I were to roll up an anti-paladin, and let's be honest noone wants to run an anti-paladin without at least a *HOPE* of getting a good weapon, I'd have to be WAY more conservative in my pk choices than most other people.

Sure, I won't be fun to watch by the snooping imm for the large majority of my life while I pk. But That's the only way *I* could have a chance at surviving long enough to build a weapon.

and I understand, that people who go out and take chances are more fun to watch for you imms, so they get more perks. But, should someone *HAVE* to go out and con-die by taking chances beyond their honest skill level, just so they don't get made fun of on their imm comments?

I'll never be a char that goes out and lands 200 kills. It's just not in me. Odrirg was my most aggressive character, but that was only because as a shaman the character was able to make up for alot of my lack of skill and still survive. If I tried that as any other class, I'd have con died before hitting hero.


Not sure I can exactly put into words my point, or question, it's not coming out right.

It's just that, this is the reason I've thrown away a dozen or so Nep/Drok/etc. roles that I would really have liked to play, because I have always had the impression, maybe erroneously, that unless I went out and took chances outside my skill level, leading to early con death, I wasn't going to get any imm loving.

Also the reason I've never tried an Ap. Well, one of the reasons. The first reason is zero knowledge of barrier, or even mid-late 30's a/b/s of any kind. Second, is the fact that if I play the way I'd have to to Survive, let alone grow strong, I'd be called the most cowardly ap in history in my PB post, which would probably piss me off as I would probably be doing the best I could. And This is a game and I don't want to get pissed off at a game, I want to have fun...


Well, anyway, there is my rant.

Maybe I'm way off base. But this is how I've felt for a few years now, not rolling up the vast majority of my role ideas because, honestly, I don't have the prep knowledge to be a pk god, nor the time to area-crawl to find the preps, nor even the desire. And while I could have just fine fun doin those roles without being a pk god, I'm afraid that everyone pointing a finger at me and saying "wimp" or "Coward" Or "Never takes chances, what a ####" would just sour it for me.



Oh, and in this post, I included a few of *THESE* words. just for my bud Pro.

Lots of people had good stuff to say here, but I have to
throw my 2 cents at you, duck it if you want.
My PK record as a player equates to a true train wreck.
I'm honestly one of the worst pk'ers out there, not counting
newbies. My more recent characters have been conservative.
(I have a different goal than normal) They sucked.
Not just in pk either, something just gives me the blehs about
them. (But damnit I'm GONNA age die a character one of these days)
The most fun I've EVER had on cf, was a character that made the
imms cringe and wish they could close thier eyes to avoid watching
the slaughter and pile of corpses this guy left. It was bad.. bad bad
bad. The balance swung against me so hard I think it broke ribs,
when it did I decided to quit caring if I died or not. (and it showed)
I got some pity imm lovin' but I know this wasn't the "hey I'm impressed
with this guy" kind.. it was more of a "no one can face that and keep
going, holy crap he's doing it AGAIN?!?! he just lost to one of those
guys and now there is five! We gotta give this pathetic bastard
something." sort of thing.
Two things though

1) once I gave up the idea of maybe surviving more than a round or two
it was FUN! seriously amazing fun. (in a leaving 3 corpses before the
fist one crumbles kinda way)

2) I learned so much about the game, pk, and the class I played
that I can feel confident that if i make another one just like him
he'll kill more than he dies, even if the balance is against him.

Anyway it comes down to what's fun. for me con-dieing a character in 2
weeks flat from full con was fun. Nep stated in here that was
definitely not a way to get luvin' form him. (Come on though man you
loved nimelerion in a sick and twisted way right?) but I didn't do it
for that reason, I did it because I was an idiot and made this guy
dedication or something and refused to give up until I had gotten the
orb back. Well other than having to log off to go to work or
what-ever. and because *I* thought it was funny. (After a while you
just stop being upset and begin to laugh at how much you are dying.)
I happen to have a compusilve streak that is making me play every class/race combo to hero as well, and that for me is fun. I can't
figure out WHY it's fun yet, I just enjoy it.
What's fun for you? Do you want to feel powerful and feared later but
don't think you can do it without being seen as a coward early on?
hey man accept it or choose to go a different route. Everything you
do is going to have it's downside AND it's upside. It's part of what
makes this game so cool.
So what gets you going?
Find roles that will make it where the character you play will
give you the fun you want.
oops gotta go.

But it comes to mind that however you play, it is always best to play in the fashion that provides you with enjoyment.

That being said, explore the idea that CF is grander and greater in scope that you or I. As players (and immortals) we also have a reciprocal approach that requires that we do our best to make it an enjoyable experience for others as well. We need to think and consider beyond ourselves and strive to provide enjoyment for as many folks as we can.

If you feel playing conservatively provides you with enough enjoyment, great! However, if you want to make CF a dynamic, living environment, move beyond your sphere of comfort. How much fun will you have on your next character playing it 'safe'...and the next...and the next...what will you have accomplished...what memories will you take home?

You don't have to play what or how others desire...but maybe, think of it in a broader context.

Good luck!

muhadin@carrionfields.com

The problem with being ultra-conservative is that your next character isn't going to benefit from it. Everyone eventually overestimates a matchup-- you think "If I do X, it's curtains." If you listen too strongly to that voice, you never figure out that you could handle that situation. You'll only learn when you underestimate a matchup, and that causes a bias that will push you further towards being excessively conservative. And even then, you may fall victim to luck briefly trumping skill-- maybe you'd beat that foe 9 times out of 10, but you only fought him once and he pulled it off. If you forever duck/avoid him unless you have an overwhelming edge, you'll never figure that out.

When we win it's with small things,
and the triumph itself makes us small.
What is extraordinary and eternal
does not want to be bent by us.
I mean the Angel who appeared
to the wrestlers of the Old Testament:
when the wrestlers' sinews
grew long like metal strings,
he felt them under his fingers
like chords of deep music.

Whoever was beaten by this Angel
(who often simply declined the fight)
went away proud and strengthened
and great from that harsh hand,
that kneaded him as if to change his shape.
Winning does not tempt that man.
This is how he grows: by being defeated, decisively,
by constantly greater beings.

--Rainer Maria Rilke

My opinion as a player . . . playing extremely conservative is generally not that much fun for you, and generally not that much fun for people you play against, and the point of the game is to have fun. I try, wearing my imm-as-administrator hat, to reward people who stick it out during tough times and take risks to beat their opponents because I feel that these things make the game generally better for everyone.

I'm not a fan of people who con die in a hundred hours either. I probably prefer the ultra-conservative characters to the ones that take countless stupid risks. I'm never going to hate on someone for not walking into a massive gang or anything like that. At the same time, if you're the kind of character who needs to round up two or three allies to get your item back from an undefended cabal, or who thinks being the third guy in a gang of a solid but not insanely tough character is too risky, or who continually words/teleports/runs/whatever even when things are stacked your way rather than face a single non-insanely-tough opponent one on one, yeah, those are probably the kinds of things I'll make cracks about. People who don't even try to get their cabal item back when I feel like they've got a really good chance to pull it off and not much risk of dying, etc.

While wearing my Daevryn-as-a-character hat. . . Daevryn is all about ambition and competition. You don't necessarily have to be the king of the mountain, but if you're a character who's about beating ass, there shouldn't be anyone that you look at and say: I just can't beat that guy ever no matter what I scheme up, so I just give up. The tricky line to walk is (again, with a typical CF character -- Daevrynites don't have to set all their goals around combat, but most so far have) that Daevryn doesn't like wusses, but he also doesn't like losers.

About playing an A-P specifically: All that being said, I honestly believe the best way to learn the limits of what you can do with an A-P specifically is to get it wrong a whole lot and learn from it. The kind of interesting balance of the A-P class is that if you take too many risks, you die and can't keep a weapon, but if you play very conservative, you also tend to rack up kills slowly and only of people worth 0 or 1 charge, so you don't really build up a super weapon very quickly that way either. My advice for your first time giving it a real go is to play with the mindset of building up to controls rather than building up a tough weapon, and learn all you can on the way.

> The kind of interesting balance of the A-P
>class is that if you take too many risks, you die and can't
>keep a weapon, but if you play very conservative, you also
>tend to rack up kills slowly and only of people worth 0 or 1
>charge, so you don't really build up a super weapon very
>quickly that way either.

Basically, if you plan to improve your unholy, you need to make the expected number of charges you'll gain outnumber the expected number of charges you lose. Or to make a goofy equation you need:

Current charges * chance of dieing < charges target is worth * chance of killing him

As you gain more charges, you need to become more cautious if you want to continue gaining. Then again, you should have better win/loss odds due to your increased power.

Boring examples:

So if you're at 100 charges and fighting a guy worth 5 charges, if you have a 60% chance of killing him and a 5% chance of dieing, then you shouldn't fight him, since your expected number of charges is -2. If you're at 1 charge and have a 20% chance of killing him and a 80% chance of dieing, then you actually should fight him, as you would expect to gain 1/5 of a charge, despite the fact that he'll kill you 4/5ths of the time.

That, of course, assumes that gaining charges is your only concern. Obviously, in the real (cf) world, you can't ever know your odds of dieing/living all that accurately.

It also assumes that the people that defeat you destroy/take your weapon. A lot of people don't, especially if you killed them in the past and left them everything first.

It's also worth noting that it is more fun to kill a guy worth 5 charges than one worth 1, normally.

I agree with basically what you're saying, but if people could reliably figure out those odds not many people would ever die .

Edit: In short, if you're anything like me, most of your deaths are when you thought the odds were overwhelmingly in your favor and found out exactly how wrong you were.

Just looking at the changes to the ap class in the recent yrs. How many aps did you play before you hit the nail on the head so to speak. Its my understanding that when it comes to aps its just a huge learning curve and also a huge amount of luck. Give us a glimpse into the perfection that was cabdru, how many throw away aps did you have before him?

>Just looking at the changes to the ap class in the recent
>yrs. How many aps did you play before you hit the nail on the
>head so to speak. Its my understanding that when it comes to
>aps its just a huge learning curve and also a huge amount of
>luck. Give us a glimpse into the perfection that was cabdru,
>how many throw away aps did you have before him?

Well, I wouldn't call any of them throw-aways. They were all serious characters to me at the time. Most were caballed, several were tattooed, etc. Some of them went on runs of 20-40 charges on a weapon before losing it doing something stupid.

I'll say about ten that got at least to level 30+.

I'll try to address this as best I can, but understand that there will always be exceptions to the below general guidelines, so don't take anything I say as absolute. Just Kasty's opinion.

If I roll an ap, and someone else rolls the same Ap, but they know how to get their A/B/S at 36, sure they are going to kill an assload more than me.

A/B/S (and preps in general) allows you the luxury of attacking an additional subset of characters, and increases the chances you'll be a) able to kill them, or b) able to survive long enough to escape. That subset includes (for pretty much everyone) Villagers and groups of two or more. It also 'evens up' some matchups that would otherwise usually be one sided (transmuter vs warrior, for (probably bad) example).

That doesn't mean you need it to rack up kills as a mage class. You just have to choose your matchups wisely when you don't have A/B/S.

Heck, I used to know a shield and an aura source, neither of which were in more than three times the last time I had a mage char. And both of which need 40+ levels to get.

Keep looking. They're out there and findable.

So, If I were to roll up an anti-paladin, and let's be honest noone wants to run an anti-paladin without at least a *HOPE* of getting a good weapon, I'd have to be WAY more conservative in my pk choices than most other people.

If you want to rack up kills, you probably won't do it with your first character in a certain class. You want to run an AP? Play an AP to level 35 or so, learn the class, learn the strengths and weaknesses, learn the good/bad matchups. Delete (or hell, just press on) and start over with your newfound knowledge. You think Cabdru was Nep's first AP? Ha! That dude has played more APs than I've played characters!

Sure, I won't be fun to watch by the snooping imm for the large majority of my life while I pk. But That's the only way *I* could have a chance at surviving long enough to build a weapon.

We enjoy a dude that can lay the smack down, true. But, even more than that, we enjoy a dude that has interesting, consistent and unique RP. Why? Because the latter are ten times more rare than the former.

Not saying you should strive to be a doormat, but RP, baby, RP! That's where it's at!

and I understand, that people who go out and take chances are more fun to watch for you imms, so they get more perks. But, should someone *HAVE* to go out and con-die by taking chances beyond their honest skill level, just so they don't get made fun of on their imm comments?

9 out of 10 of those people who take insane chances and con-die just make us shake our heads and sigh. As far as making fun of, meh, if there's a dude out there who is trying their best and not succeeding, we probably won't say much beyond "Hey, this dude is sure trying!"

The folks that generally get poked at are the ones who obviously have skills but consistently don't use them. They fight only newbies. They word at 85% HP (every time). They don't fully explore the tactics available to the class (flee;pwk necro, for example). They *never* fight alone (though some support classes I'll exclude here).

It's just that, this is the reason I've thrown away a dozen or so Nep/Drok/etc. roles that I would really have liked to play, because I have always had the impression, maybe erroneously, that unless I went out and took chances outside my skill level, leading to early con death, I wasn't going to get any imm loving.

Please, please, please don't rely on Imm loving to make you feel like you've had a successful character. Play the game for you, man! We will not always be able to give you that interaction.

the most cowardly ap in history in my PB post, which would probably piss me off as I would probably be doing the best I could. And This is a game and I don't want to get pissed off at a game, I want to have fun...

You could always throw that in your role...

Maybe I'm way off base. But this is how I've felt for a few years now, not rolling up the vast majority of my role ideas because, honestly, I don't have the prep knowledge to be a pk god, nor the time to area-crawl to find the preps, nor even the desire. And while I could have just fine fun doin those roles without being a pk god, I'm afraid that everyone pointing a finger at me and saying "wimp" or "Coward" Or "Never takes chances, what a ####" would just sour it for me.

I've been tempted for a long time to roll up a character that totally refuses to use harder-than-normal to get preps, progged items, or anything other than their class abilities. Would I be a PK god? Nope! But it would be an interesting way to spin a role, and I think I could have fun with it.

Bottom line: don't sweat the Imm comments, we're not all-knowing, all-seeing gods; sometimes we just catch you doing that one bad or questionable thing, and that's what gets noted. I've had this happen to more than one of my characters - somewhat negative imm comment that wasn't representative of how I felt the character was. But hey, I pressed on, not a big deal. You can too.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

>I've been tempted for a long time to roll up a character that
>totally refuses to use harder-than-normal to get preps,
>progged items, or anything other than their class abilities.

This is pretty much every character I roll. Call it sphere sloth/suckiness. The only reason I don't write it into the role is because it would be way too obvious a signature.

That aside, I can attest that being mediocre and lazy/suicidal PK-wise doesn't automatically mean crappy imm comments. My last character had a 52% PK ratio, got himself killed in stupid ways frequently, and the worst PK-related comment I got was "In response to being put to sleep by Edimus - Meyrshal: Not to worry though, it is only Edimus."

For the record, I can count the amount of times I've had multiple people band together to get me item on one or two hands, out of like 8/9 years of playing or so.

I'll use ABS wands, but I've heroed exactly one character who can use ABS wands...ever.

Anyway, am I titled, with 500 pks, tattoo & etc with every char I play? No, hah, not even close. The gear I have is from Pk'ing decked people with my midnight dragon gear and surviving to slowly build up a set. But I have fun. And I have no problem competing with anybody running around at any given time, even if I might not be able to kill them.

With the only two mages I've had that were somewhat reputable I got all my barrier from PK'ing other mages who happened to have barrier. Take that for what its worth. If you hero a mage and hang out there for a couple hundred hours its almost like you'd have to try *not* to find barrier wands.

Am I reading this correctly?

You are afraid to play a particular class in CF because of what the IMMs might think of your character?

That's either the funniest or saddest thing I've ever read on these forums.

Here's a tip: play for *YOU*

My personal advice is to stop worrying about what your imm comments say and if you want to play something do it and play it how you want. I did an honorbound shaman and went after everything in my range that was allowable. I got called a "prep-whore" for using stoneskin and shield. They also said something about me not pking outside of my "comfort zone". I was hitting anyone I could find groups included, but apparently I was held accountable for them not being pk masters. In short, it just depends on the imm and what they see. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. So just say #### it and have fun.

If you could see me now I'm throwing up FTA gang signs for you and your bud pro.

way to be Hugely off point, Der. If my post had a point. but I'll respond a bit.



Fun times, though I think most of it was a joke that went well over most people's heads. Haven't thought about that stuff (or talked to those guys) in a long time. no offense, but I think you were one of the ones that didn't get it.

I'll admit, fta meant something different to each of us. but I'll give you a rough sketch of what it meant to me.

about 8-10 years ago (long time ago, not sure on specifics), one of my Army buddies who I had infected with the cf bug started posting with that tag. It was funny. an inside joke. And if you think you know what it means, you probably don't.

Anyway, this was a time of diku-clan, smug, neosoft, etc. groups of people who were convinced their #### didn't stink and that they were the elite of the elite, and who power gamed by grouping together all the time.


I know that I started posting the fta thing, not because any of us were like that, or even that we played the game like that (we didn't, we were never able to work up a perma that got past lvl 16, and that was like the other two's first or second chars, mostly because we always wanted to be doing our own thing).....anyway, I started posting the fta thing, partly because I wanted to see how long it would take conspiracy theories to pop up surrounding it(I learned later that this kinda pissed off one of us, so I stopped this part, though the damage was done), and partly as a shout-out to some army buddies who I was losing contact with due to PCS's all around.

In the following few years, a few other military guys(and non-military guys) would either be sucked into cf by one of the four of us from ft. polk, or would start to chat with us, and would sometimes also post with the fta thing.

by this time, myself, and a few others, had gotten into the dubious pleasures of ot-board and forum rabble-rousing, in my case mainly because the majority of cf forum lurkers are so left-leaning I found it exceedingly easy to make their skin itch and piss them off by just typing a few words.

Also, by this time, most of the fta-ers had lost contact with each other. I think because I was really the only one still cf'ing on a constant basis, and I know two of them who stopped wanting to talk about cf at all when we talked, maybe 2-3 times a year, and I don't blame them. As cf is an addiction with some, and talking about it can lead to a re-lapse.

And, around this time, the shame was the whole fta thing, which was really meant as a friendly shout-out to fellow grunts, became linked with my (and a few others) forum fishing. So it fell out of use.

anyway, fta was never really a "cf clan" as many people thought. It was more a "group of Grunts, some of who happened to play cf on and off".

Heh, good times, makes me want to get in contact with a few of those guys again. not sure I even have the ability to, email addresses I have are all way old.

You may remember me.....

Two things.

#1: Play what *you* want to play and what *you* enjoy. Don't base your contentment with your character on what others want or feel, because you'll be trying to please them and not just have fun.

Remember that talk we had a few years ago when I won that role contest (and no, I will never let you forget that). The irony on IMMteraction is that if you try too hard for it, you don't get it because you look desperate and don't have fun.

However, if you play a cool, creative character that *you* enjoy and that "life" comes through, as id did with Odrig, you'll get IMMteraction.

#2: Play what you're good at.

Yeah, I played a lot of pallys and warriors, but I *liked* them and was good at them. You sorta answered your own question when you mentioned how Shamans were a good fit for you.

So.....if...the...shoe fits....?

It is not hard to mold an AP role into a decent shaman role at all.



Also, why don't you answer your e-mails any more? Mine's stayed the same for like 6 years now and my AKO won't change. Ever. Even if I retire or drop my REFRAD if Queen Clinton II gets crowned in '08