If I read the helpfile correctly :When in combat, the whip/flail can be used to entwine the opponent and
prevent them from fleeing. While entwined, the opponent's dodging ability
will suffer greatly, and the whip wielder's dodging ability will suffer
somewhat. The whip cannot be used while entwining someone.

Then that seems to imply that the entwiner is still holding onto the whip in order to control the entwinee. In the past, the whip dropped into the inventory I assume to keep the wielder from doing damage with it, but that just let the entwiner wield another weapon in its stead.

With the new wield code, shouldn't this be changed to better reflect the whip being held, but the dual wield slot unable to be reoccupied by another weapon? Otherwise it's like having 3 arms.

The skill has always seemed a little strange to me because you could entwine and still be rescued and disengaged from the fight, but the PC you entwined would remain entwined and could not reaim at you without another combat move like dirt. In essence, you'd get a minimum of 2 free rounds of combat, even if they did dirt you before they could re-aim at you.

Just my random idea on the first day of Spring. Now I'm going to go buy my dogs some cookies and play on the beach. See what not having an active PC in the game lets you do

Entwine, has always seemed a little bizarre to me personally. But making it so you could not dual wield again after entwining would be a big down grade IMO, entwine vs anyone with decent tanking abilities would not be a very attractive option anymore where as now it is often an opening move for whip/flail specs.

Without the dual wield you lose many spec skills, all two handed specs, half your potential melee output all for the loss of dodge and no flee? No flee doesn't matter as much if the odds that your opponent can out tank you now and kill you increase significantly, the loss of dodge can be accomplished with other skills without the massive drop in damage output. While I think this change would make sense from a realism stand point, I think the nerf is pretty large.

To balance it, I think it would need to have some ability to disrupt your opponents actions, ie a chance to fail skills/spells due to a loss of coordination or something, just my opinion again.

PS I hate whip/flail specs

I've always seen entwine sortof like a cowboy and a lasoo...wile on his horse.

He throws the lasoo, ties it off on the saddle horn, and then his hands are free to deal with the horse.

Maybe whip/flails wrap it around their shoulders? maybe they have their own version of saddle horns that they can attach to a belt.


I can see, if the entwiner is nolonger directly fighting (rescued out AND nolonger attacking) the entwine timer drastically getting shorter....

Ie. If the entwiner is nolonger actively keeping the whip/flail taught around the victims legs, it will be easier for the victim to wriggle out in a few rounds of combat.


But, I see no reason why the entwiner has to be actually tanking the entwinee.

Dropping into your inventory is a game balance thing, kind of like hurl no longer costs you a dagger.

It's about losing or maintaining control of the whip. I realize it might be game balance, but I figured it was more likely just too difficult to code under the old wield system, where now it should be relatively easy.

And as far as game balance goes, why doesn't hurl cost you a dagger when harpoon costs you a spear? At least till you pick it up again after a 2-round lag.

I'm just pointing out a little inconsistency in the description vs. the mechanics. Heck, if it were a game balance thing, then make entwine work more frequently in exchange for losing the dual wield while you are controlling an entwinee.

And for an old pet peeve, make entwine hit wilderness familiarity proportionally rather than wiping it out all together. If you ever want to make a ranger killer, just use flails and entwine. It is perhaps the biggest warrior skill that pretty much takes all the advantage away from a ranger in the wilds once it hits.

But then I realize it's my own bias for my favorite class and we always find their weaknesses more glaring than for any other class.

Is when the entwiner flees. Then the entwinee should get to keep the whip. Also, the entwiner should run a risk of failing the escape due to not successfully detaching the whip. (see odrig's post)

Also, i'm quite sure that wilderness fam provides a bonus even when ur entwined.

As for hurl, I see no reason why the hurler should get to keep his dagger wielded after hurling it :p Although I would ideally prefer a less class-specific downgrade of high-dex classes. (They really weren't underpowered before. Not thieves, nor warriors nor and especially not assassins/elf&woodelf bards. geez. Super high-dex ap's and rangers are a whole nother story though)

Is that dagger specs carry specific throwing daggers that aren't really any good for wielding, just for throwing. Now you *could* make people carry throwing daggers, but they you could also make people carry arrows, or make armor degrade or unused skills... etc. etc. etc.

but can you hurl if you are not wielding a dagger, I never tried it before so I'm not sure but my guess would be no, which to me means you are hurling a dagger you are wielding. But your idea does make sense otherwise.

>but can you hurl if you are not wielding a dagger, I never
>tried it before so I'm not sure but my guess would be no

No you cannot.

>which to me means you are hurling a dagger you are wielding.

Not necessarily. Think of it like this: When main wielding a dagger, you can easily and quickly sheath or toss the wielded dagger to your offhand and then hurl a throwing dagger and re-wield your main dagger. Any other weapon and the process would be too cumbersome, so you can't do it. If you want to say you could grab the center of a two handed weapon, I'm going to say that you'd trip over it, or some other such nonsense. Offhand doesn't work because... well try throwing anything with your offhand and you'll see why.

>But your idea does make sense otherwise.
>
>

Yeah I can see that but my thought was more along the lines of why can't the person with nothing in their hands hurl, not wielding a different weapon type.

Still I like your reasoning for how it is a no item "throwing" dagger, similar to hunter arrows, or assassin darts.

I was just coming back to CF, for about the third time, playing an Elf healer and I was chased down by a fire giant dagger spec. Of course I was... WTF a GIANT using daggers this well?!?!??!? Gack!

Needless to say at that time the damage of the hurl was dependent on strength and dagger. Well I got nuked by iron daggers that were doing huge damage at mid twenties. It was just ugly. I think I died to hurl alone because I fled like mad whenever I got hurled. The daggers were ending up in my inventory but that was little to no consolation because even using an altar healer, yeah those daggers were sort of useful to me, I could not stay above the damage he was dealing out.

Of course back then hit roll was determined by strength as well.. bleh. CF was SO hyperfocused on strength being the be all & end all of melee. Thank the Imms/Imps for all the cool changes, some day an Elf swordmaster, ala the CF fluff, will be fun and plausible for even a dweeb like me.

So why don't you lose the dagger with hurl, but to harpoon you must carry a spear in your inventory and you lose it to the ground for the duration of the harpoon lag (2 rounds).

Hey, I'm just asking for a little consistency in a fantasy world

Which is why I brought up entwine in the first place; the skill doesn't seem even remotely consistent with 'reality'. I can understand wanting to make whip/flail more attractive, but entwine just sort of baffles me.

That and it REALLY seems to screw over rangers because it completely nerfs wilderness familiarity in addition to dodge.

I think entwine is all Pro's and only one Con, depending on how you view things.

Entwine hurts dodge considerably. Play a shapeshifter and try getting entwined and see what happens. This also affects any class that relies on dodging (e.g. thieves, rangers, assassins, warriors, bards, and so forth).

Entwine prevents fleeing. This affects all melee classes heavily.

These are two huge pro's.

The only Con I see, is not having a weapon in your primary hand for two rounds of combat.

Now I'm not going to say there's any problems with the way entwine currently is, but having more drawbacks would be a welcome change. It would also very likely put a stint to the massive amounts of whip/flail specs that we see these days.

My impression is that whip specs dominate the other specializations, just as certain legacies seem to be more popular. Let's look at why that might be.

1. Whips and flails are hard to parry. With a good damroll, you can tear someone up compared to swords.

2. The most effective blinding method is given to whip specs (and maybe assassins). It cannot be dispelled, and it has a lengthy duration compared to other blinding moves.

3. Weapon strip not only disarms the victim, but quite possibly denies them the possibility of picking it back up from the ground. Weaponbreaker is the only other spec that can so effectively remove a weapon from a fight, and it doesn't hit as easily.

4. Entwine nerfs dodge, which really messes with classes or races who rely entirely upon dodging to be competitive in melee.

5. Entwine prevents fleeing and rescuing. Completely, no lucky fleeing past a cutoff or a parting blow. The only counter to it is the quaffing legacy.

6. While the victim is so hampered, in a typical lag time for a spec move the entwiner can rearm and start to wail away on the victim. If the whip specialist has Greeting (a legacy I have had with my warriors and have little respect for) he might very well be able to bash, entwine, and rearm before the victim can get off a dirt kick to prevent adding a second weapon.

Now I know the warriors who love to entwine are going to scream at me for trying to nerf their beloved specialization, but I hope to bring it on par with other specs. Maybe other people have better ideas, but I'll throw these out there for discussion.

The other skills are good and bring splendid utility options to the spec, and seem pretty balanced compared to other specs. I really think the principle change that should take place should be with the entwine skill. Here are my suggestions:

1. Regarding entwine: don't drop it into inventory, but while the victim is entwined, the whip spec is holding onto the whip. Should the whip spec get disarmed, the victim will be free in one or two rounds unless the whip spec can reclaim the whip. This seems to balance out the dodge nerfing and the failure to flee.

2. Make the duration of the entwining a function of the whip spec's dexterity versus the target's dexterity. You can entwine a felar ranger or a drow dagger spec, but they are going to be able to twist their way out of it faster than a dwarf.

3. If other people are beating on the victim other than the entwiner, there is a small risk the whip or flail can become damaged or unusable.

>My impression is that whip specs dominate the other
>specializations, just as certain legacies seem to be more
>popular.

Numbers don't necessarily bear that out, FYI.

If I had to guess:

1. Sword
2. Axe
3. Whip/Flail
4. Polearm
5. Mace
6. Hand to Hand
7. Dagger
8. Staff/Spear

That is my guess from playing against warriors. Dagger may be moving up that list though with the new changes.

Did you adjust out the total newbies? (People who are 3 - 49?)