I like all the current outlanders, but I just didn't think the immortals got fair credit by what was posted. This is the cabal chatter current Outlanders left out which all lead up to the title.

I'm still not saying the title was or wasn't deserved...but come on...we have to post everything if we are going to complain about it.

Its not all bad, and I think Halistanis is a great leader otherwise. I was only surprised that the cabal channel was being used as the center of eq focused conversation. It was like I jumped back in carrion fields 5 years.

This all happened RIGHT before the title in addition to all the other happenings.

----------------------------------

Halistanis: He has nice gauntlets

Halistanis: BElltower in Barovia

Dacob: You'll need to renew the disease

Thelmon: He died

Halistanis: hurry to the corpse

Halistanis: I need gaunlets please

Dacob: The overgrown building

Dacob: We can fight him for the corpse, priestess

Thelmon: Leave it be

Halistanis: I think we only need to get what we need


******some time passes******

Halistanis: Myrakie is awaken, please stay out of Easterns

***the above was about a thief***

Neikulous: she says she's not interested in stealing from us

Dacob: She will be when she sees us

Neikulous: yeah good point.

Halistanis: Yep

Thelmon: *laugh*

Halistanis: She likes it

Wow, that's really bad.

If I was in Outlander I'd be like, "What the ####?".

Please, please please please, gauntlets for me, please!

Heh.

This conversation was fresh in the mind of the Immortal (from logs and comments on the character) who pushed the title button, along with several other observations. Just like in many "straw vs. camel's back" cases, the player often assumes that only the most recent incident was the cause of the change. Much, much more often, the noted incident was just the last in a series.

Titles are IC reflections of the reputation you've built for yourself among others. So long as the title reflects behavior (and this one did), I've got no beef with it. Anything beyond that, see this post, hereafter referred to as "Orc God's Guide To Growing a Pair" (*). It conveniently describes more productive ways to dealing with IC setbacks beyond trying to lobby on OOC forums.

Please, think of the Thrak. No one likes seeing a sad orc.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

(*): Or female equivalent thereof. _{Please don't hurt me, Cyradia.}

No asterisk needed. I knew you meant 'ovaries'.

I was going based on what Nep was posting, which was mostly like, "Druid gangs scion" (shocking!!!) and stuff of that nature.

Like I said though, this particular example doesn't matter to me. Its more that opinions flip flop a lot and they do so silently. I feel like somewhere there's a post on official's forum thats like, "You know what, I don't mind level sitting anymore."

I'd simply like those things to be solidified and standardized. Even if we're not privy to the info, it'd be cool if these were consistent, case by case. I'm not suggesting automation, merely that we all come to an agreement on which mechanic issues are just mechanics and which are roleplay issues.

- DC

So what if some things are in the gray area and will one time go unnoticed, and another time cause consequences? Yeah, in the ideal world, we'd all rather have more consistent reward/punishment system, but IMO it's not something like OMG OMG IT'S RUINING THE GAME!!! Come on. On a big scale of things, everybody does understand which things are iffy. I don't see it as a huge deal if players don't know exactly how far can they stretch the boundaries before the #### hits the fan.

Furthermore, there's only so much the volunteer stuff can do, and I am pretty sure policing is not something any of them enjoy. Even if they have very consistent guidelines - they can't watch everyone 24/7, so by the nature of probability it will never be the same for every character. Even in professional sports where organizations spend big bucks on setting up rules and training judges, it's not always consistent. Some people bitch and moan about ever little mistake the judges make, others just enjoy the show.

I'd much rather the imms do something cool for the game than work on a super consistent set of rules for rewards and punishments. The do have certain rules, they use common sense, and they have good intentions - I think that's more than enough.

You can't have half of the staff saying "We're fine with this" and the other half slapping out bad titles or other punishments for what the first half of the staff said they were fine with. It's not good for someone to be doing something they have been told is fine, only to be punished (and a negative title IS punishment) for doing whatever it was.

I don't think anyone on staff ever said "we're fine with this" as it applies specifically to Halistanis's case. Nor did they say collectively that they're not fine with it. As they've said, no general guidelines can dictate what is and isn't kosher for a given character since every character has potentially unique role-play and circumstances. Now, even if we fix the character and situation in question, different imms may still have slightly different standards for what's a negative-titleable offense and what isn't. And that's okay. For one, because it cuts both ways. Some imms may have lower standards for positively-titleable actions than others, so there are some people who get cool titles who, by your argument, don't deserve them any more than Halistanis deserves his.

The main sticking point for people seems to be that "we don't know how to act, because sometimes you say X is okay and other times X gets you a negative title." My answer to that is that if you don't want to suffer any negative consequences, including a title, then act as if you're constantly being watched by the most trigger-happy immortal you can imagine. Whenever you say or do something, think to yourself, "If {insert title-happy imm} were watching me, could my saying or doing X possibly cause an imm to think negatively of my character?" If the answer is yes then don't do it.

Alternately, realize that different standards exist, pick a standard that seems "reasonable" to you, and live by that. Sometimes you might get burned. Other times you might "get away" with stuff and suffer no consequences whatsoever. Your free to choose which to pursue.

To go back to the Nhiala example, my one crappy PBF comment was from Valguarnera, who didn't think it was honorable for my sphere honor paladin to suicide to remove a flag. I knew it was a little wimpy (from a player's point of view) at the time, but didn't think it violated my character's roleplay (sepuku, etc.) In the back of my mind, I guess it occurred to me that someone upstairs might disagree. So in that instance I rolled the dice and "lost", where "lost" here means "got a crappy PBF comment that otherwise had no IC consequences."

There's a certain wisdom to this.

>Whenever you say or do something, think to yourself, "If
>{insert title-happy imm} were watching me, could my saying or
>doing X possibly cause an imm to think negatively of my
>character?" If the answer is yes then don't do it.
>
>Alternately, realize that different standards exist, pick a
>standard that seems "reasonable" to you, and live by that.
>Sometimes you might get burned. Other times you might "get
>away" with stuff and suffer no consequences whatsoever. Your
>free to choose which to pursue.

Another thought is to step up your RP around doing something iffy and/or pre-explain/pre-qualify it. If you're an empowerment character and you're not sure if your empowering imm is okay with something, asking before you do it both covers your ass and seems like reasonable RP to me.

You are almost always in a worse position trying to rationalize something you did after the fact.

I recently spotted one of my empowerees en route to do something dicey by my religion. (I really need to sit that person down for a longer talk / more interaction, but sometimes ten minutes between meetings to watch is what you've got to work with. Anyway.) I was poised to bring the hammer down, but, you know, they RPed the whole thing out well in a way I didn't anticipate, and I ended up handing out a little XP instead.



Another random good guideline -- I should write up another post of these soon -- pretend your character's action/speech were anonymized, so I couldn't tell who you were, who you were talking to... all context clues gone. Could I tell your character from his worst enemy solely by your RP? If not, you might be digging a hole for yourself.

What you really meant was just no more posts that disagree with the immortal point of view on this one.

Gotcha.

Vlad, when I came back, you sent me a very nice email welcoming me. As I read it, I was kinda like "hmm, I don't really remember Vlad all that well, but I always thought he was more of a dink than this email shows." It was nice. I think I wrote back saying thanks. If I didn't, I'm sorry, I should have.

Lately however everything I read that comes from you* seems to be more dinkly and less "neovlad". I hope that reverses itself. Perhaps if you get into as fun a character as Spenner was (pretty sure that's who you were playing at the time of my return), you'll see CF with rose-colored glasses again.

*No, not really everything. It just seems that way. Three negative posts, for example, can completely overshadow 10 "plain old discussion" posts that are neither negative nor positive.

In this particular instance though, he's right. Kinda had hoped someone on the staff (in a perfect world, Valg) would have stood up and said "We/I decided to end conversation on this topic. So no more here, either."

He's pointing out the obvious conflict arising with shutting that one down, but letting a new thread on the same topic that happens to support the staff's decision stay up, and in fact contributing to it. Doesn't seem to pass the smell test, if you know what I mean.

For what it's worth.

This is the very heart of the entire problem here. People aren't asking for much, just some consistency. You can't stifle everyone who disagrees with you, and encourage people who agree with you. You can't encourage behavior with one character and condemn the same behavior from another.

Valg locked the previous thread and said "No more", then turned around and encouraged a new thread on the same topic just because it agreed with his point of view. This is the entire problem here, and what I'm trying to point out.

I'm not TRYING to be a ####, but come on this is exactly what is pissing so many people off. You can try to put it off on me for exacerbating it by bringing it up, but if the situation didn't exist to begin with then there wouldn't be anything for me to point out would there?

If I hadn't brought it up, as you can see from Graatches post then someone else would have. I'm clearly not the only one who feels this way. It's not like Graatch and I ever agree on ANYTHING, and yet here we are.

This post, the situation with the druid, it's all related to the same general inconsistency and it's pissing off a lot of people. The reasons they gave on day 1 were nowhere near the same reasons given on day two. Is it too much to ask for people to just be consistent?

I'm trying to establish consistency re: titles. I don't care to debate every aspect of the character's life, which is where the original thread was going, and I maintain that both the character in question and Neikulous are acting like total children in that thread. Leaving it unlocked wasn't going anywhere productive with those two cluttering it up.

There's also been discussion making the (ridiculous, IMO) assertion that titles are OOC. They certainly aren't-- titles are intended to reflect the IC reputation that the character has earned. NPCs and PCs can/do certainly react to them and it's not bad roleplay to do so. That's been established by discussion in our internal boards, and how I and other IMPs will look at cases where someone thinks a staff member's titling is wrong.

Hopefully that irons that out.

I'm not TRYING to be a ####,

I disagree on that point. You say that a lot, but I've never, ever got the sense that it's backed by anything. I don't think you care about the game at all-- only your own perceived importance with respect to it. It's why you flame left and right, and it's why a huge chunk of the conspiracy thread is dedicated specifically to debunking rumors you've spread.

(Feel free to address the points I made on Rayihn's forum, by the way. After all the #### you've heaped on her doorstep about her area, I think you owe her a reply to what I laid out there.)

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>I'm trying to establish consistency re: titles. I don't care
>to debate every aspect of the character's life, which is where
>the original thread was going, and I maintain that both the
>character in question and Neikulous are acting like total
>children in that thread. Leaving it unlocked wasn't going
>anywhere productive with those two cluttering it up.

If the plan is to actually hand out titles for stuff, then thats one thing. But you have to admit there have been far worse examples of the sort of behavior the druid was titled for lately, who didn't get titled. I can think of worse examples still playing too.

>There's also been discussion making the (ridiculous, IMO)
>assertion that titles are OOC. They certainly aren't-- titles
>are intended to reflect the IC reputation that the character
>has earned. NPCs and PCs can/do certainly react to them and
>it's not bad roleplay to do so. That's been established by
>discussion in our internal boards, and how I and other IMPs
>will look at cases where someone thinks a staff member's
>titling is wrong.

Fair enough and I agree thats what a title ought to reflect, the worldwide reputation someone garners. The problem is, people see a title change and if there's anything remotely negative sounding you get bombarded with tells asking "Why are you called so-and so?". A lot of players don't take it as an IC reputation, but I agree thats what it should be.

>
>Hopefully that irons that out.
>
>I'm not TRYING to be a ####,
>
>I disagree on that point. You say that a lot, but I've never,
>ever got the sense that it's backed by anything. I don't
>think you care about the game at all-- only your own perceived
>importance with respect to it. It's why you flame left and
>right, and it's why a huge chunk of the conspiracy thread is
>dedicated specifically to debunking rumors you've spread.

I don't give a #### about being thought of as important. YOU invited people to ask conspiracy related things and I came to you with my questions. You gave me answers and I didn't argue the points, I even thanked you for answering me. If you guys would have been more forthcoming instead of just covering things up, there wouldn't BE conspiracies. For a long time staff would deny things happened then, lo and behold, down the road we find out they did. The opinion then is "That was so long ago, why bitch about it now"? Well that means you all lied the whole time up till then. You can say you don't owe us an explaination but then don't expect people not to fill in the blanks. In my case nearly every single thing I've ever said has been told to me by someone (usually fairly high up, but not always) on staff. I don't just sit around making things up so I can post and sound like a nut.

As for why I flame, I tend to flame where things are really ridiculous and stupid. Thats why you catch so much of my flaming. You are a great immortal when it comes to the game, but a real jerk on the forums. You always have been, since before you were even on the staff so it's got nothing to do with you being an imm. I can't honestly say I've got any problems with anything you've ever done to me in the game, but I cringe everytime I see that you responded to a player before I even read the post. You're abrasive and abusive, and the fact that you will flame someone and then lock a thread to prevent replies is a classic example of the kind of things about you that many people don't like. I've never accused you of cheating or anything shady, just of being an asshole. A position I stand by.

>
> Feel free to address the points I made on Rayihn's forum, by
>the way. After all the #### you've heaped on her doorstep
>about her area, I think you owe her a reply to what I laid out
>there.)

I've honestly never even gone into her forum, and really don't see much of a need to. I don't plan to interact with her anytime soon. As far as her area goes, I haven't heaped any ####. I said it was a decent, if small area and that someone else on staff told me Nepenthe did all of the progs for it. Thats hardly harsh criticism. I stand by my opinion that the progs really make the area, and that without them it's not exactly the same stand out area. This could be said of many areas that are heavy progs and not exactly condemnation. If you think there's something in there I should read though, I'll mosey on over and take a look.

>valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>If the plan is to actually hand out titles for stuff, then
>thats one thing. But you have to admit there have been far
>worse examples of the sort of behavior the druid was titled
>for lately, who didn't get titled.

I don't have to, no.

>I said it was a decent, if small area and that someone
>else on staff told me Nepenthe did all of the progs for it.
>Thats hardly harsh criticism. I stand by my opinion that the
>progs really make the area, and that without them it's not
>exactly the same stand out area.

If only it ended there.

Actually, it ranks among the largest areas in the MUD, and roomwise it's roughly twice the size of a standard heroimm project. (In retrospect, a lot of our most prolific and my favorite area authors also went about as overboard with their heroimm projects. Example: Kasty.)

The progs for the area are long line-wise, but complexity-wise it's mostly cut and paste with a billion echoes I didn't write. Not that anyone's keeping score, but I offered to do as much for each of the heroimms Scarabaeus and I tried to sucker into writing an area along this general theme over the years -- they just didn't make it.

(Side trivia: We've got a number of area projects that have killed several heroimms. Farigno broke that trend for a similarly storied project and I think some people are going to be blown away in a good way when it opens. Linolaques, I'm pulling for you to break the curse on the one you've got!)

Yay for area writers! (Said as a non-finisher.)

I still think the idea I had for mine would be cool, if anyone ever cared to pick it up. Maybe a non-heroimm, since it would be alot less time-consuming for someone who had access to the existing area's source file.

Honestly, it's best to ignore Vlad.

Earlier tonight, I did curse the black hide of the person who (if memory serves, and it doesn't always) convinced me to include him in the last forum amnesty. Looking over that list now, I think we made the right call on the other cases-- a couple of minor flare-ups, but overall things have run pretty smoothly.

Kudos to the rest of those folks!

valguarnera@carrionfields.com