allow shifters to put up more than one partial shift at a time? This would make them even better offensively, possibly, but they need it. Shifters are largely useless before their form and this would allow them to get that vital first form quicker.

I'd like to see shifters able to keep up two or possibly more partial shifts at higher levels; I don't think they really need it at low levels.

The way partial shifts were coded makes that kind of a pain in the ass to put in, though. It's not at the top of my to-do list. Space there is reserved for things that I think are either urgent or easy/fast.

Shifters are supposed to be tough to get through until your forms start coming in. That's the trade off for being so versatile later in life.

G.

But I definitely don't agree with shifters being "so versatile" later on in life. Once you get your forms, you are the least versatile class in the game, with the least amount of combat options. There are mobs with more combat options than shifters.

**Partial shifts are fine the way they are

Versatile in the sense, you can hold your own at a moment's notice, provided you have mana.


G.

>Versatile in the sense, you can hold your own at a moment's
>notice, provided you have mana.
>
>
>G.

*cough* Yeah, okay. I shift, I've still got to prep just like every other class in the game. I don't exactly think "at a moment's notice" is accurate.

Plus, what would be so imbalancing about a shifter running around with two partial shifts?

unless prepped out of the ass and geared with every piece of gear.

At Hero that is.

Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.

.

Two facts that make me think they need help.

1. The random forms and choices are fun. But in the end, the forms make or break your character in terms of ability. You cannot make a shifter and think 'solo exploration', 'killer pk!' or 'a great Acolyte'.

You can increase the chances of a useful combo - if you cripple yourself holding a focus choice until near Hero. But its that random it hurts any specific RP or PK plans people make. This is a great disadvantage to rolling one.

2. They are the least versatile of all the mage classes. Despite a wide variety of possible forms - they are very predictable once said forms are known. Its not even comparable to knowing a warriors specs. Each form has one/two tasks it performs exceptionally well - usually above any other classes ability in that area. Picking 'two' of these is not versatility. Even if you can switch between the two. Sure, no two are alike but its not as if they shuffle forms each time you meet them again.

3. Not being able to speak is possibly the worst set back to any classes power. Ever.

4. While their strengths/weaknesses vary with combo's, this remains true - Shifters have more vulnerabilities tactically than any other class. For someone who only gains tactical choices/power at Hero, thats rough. There's lots of niggles, like having haste+slow on a stick. Except haste becomes a necessity. A hasted opponent negates that as much as one dispel.

90% of the vulns are from not being able to speak/heal and not being able to use items/wands without losing -all- your ability reverting. Even if you're lucky enough to get a regen form (not even guaranteed for defensive shifters) there is no compare.


There are many other drawbacks/advantages. Many of the advantages (the best mentioned above, in No.2) do warrant big drawbacks.

The thing that killed the shifter, is that more and more drawbacks were added as they went along. Todays shifters, usually require cabals and good (random) shape combo's to succeed. Few other cabals have powers that do much at all to help and Scion shifters simply have cabal powers perfect for them. Little things like this add up into a nasty picture I discovered with my experiment.

Every single class out there bar healers, has the ability to cripple a shifter. Knowing their forms, complete avoidance can be possible (even if you sacrificed a focus for an airform). I'd whip up a list for this but it'd be long and boring. I don't think any other class can claim as much vulnerability as that.

Except Brundlebin, but he was in a class of his own.

I'm very interested to see how this Hyzin character plays out, because as far as I can see he's the first shifter to gain 3 foci. That's something I suggested once, but was shot down. Mainly because some of the very difficult to get (probability wise) combo's such as owl/tiger/croc were deemed overpowered. I don't think such a combo would be invincible but sure, it'd be hella tough. I'd also bet people would learn that having the option to shift for another advantage (fly/pounce/regen) - and actually shifting to use every single ability - is a hell of a lot harder than you think.

My essay, complete. I apologise for ranting, this is one of the only subjects I'm nearly convinced I'm right in (we all have one I guess).

Edit - If you've read it all the way through, you're amazing. Well done. I barely managed to do it once myself.

Yhorian.

>Two facts that make me think they need help.

First of all, one shifter isn't usually enough to say much. I have had several shifters and each was better then the previous one, and not because of forms.

>1. The random forms and choices are fun. But in the end, the forms >make or break your character in terms of ability. You cannot make a >shifter and think 'solo exploration', 'killer pk!' or 'a great >Acolyte'.

You are right that the random forms make it fun(it always gave me a real incentive to rank!), but the forms will not break your character unless you let them. For a solo exploration you might want to do defense/offense, defense/utility, or even defense/defense. For killer pk, well most of the utility forms and offense forms will do well with an air form. And for an acolyte, well if you are focusing on the more shield aspect, then defense in general should do very well in this type of role.

Yes, you are correct that you may not get the exact forms you want, but all forms are useful in their right. No class gets the damage reduction of an armadillo for example with no preps or magical help. Of course, understandably, you aren't going to kill anyone with an armadillo, and thats what your other form is for.

>You can increase the chances of a useful combo - if you cripple >yourself holding a focus choice until near Hero. But its that >random it hurts any specific RP or PK plans people make. This is a >great disadvantage to rolling one.

You are also right that if you are roleplaying a shifter who wants to learn how to fight foes as a shark and instead you learn to shift into a dolphin, but thats a highly specific role. Most folks can have a role based on their foci. I had a shifter that was a nutcase about birds for example(no smacking arials, no eating turkey, the whole thing). He had air as a focus, but it didn't matter so much what he learned.

PK plans can be hurt, if you were expecting a lion/porcupine combination or something close. You might end up with a tiger/crocodile instead. In either case, both combinations can work well.

>2. They are the least versatile of all the mage classes. Despite a >wide variety of possible forms - they are very predictable once >said forms are known. Its not even comparable to knowing a warriors >specs. Each form has one/two tasks it performs exceptionally well - >usually above any other classes ability in that area. Picking 'two' >of these is not versatility. Even if you can switch between the >two. Sure, no two are alike but its not as if they shuffle forms >each time you meet them again.

Agreed they are not very versatile, you are stuck with your forms. The best way to use a shifter is to figure out what form to be in and when. Its not a complicated system, but it works.

>3. Not being able to speak is possibly the worst set back to any >classes power. Ever.

Its a major setback, I agree. It makes perfect sense for shifters to not be able to speak, though. I think its fine as is, but as a player its up to you if the negatives outweigh the positives or not. Personally I am a silent ranker, so it gives me a good excuse not to talk at all

>4. While their strengths/weaknesses vary with combo's, this remains >true - Shifters have more vulnerabilities tactically than any other >class. For someone who only gains tactical choices/power at Hero, >thats rough. There's lots of niggles, like having haste+slow on a >stick. Except haste becomes a necessity. A hasted opponent negates >that as much as one dispel.
>
>90% of the vulns are from not being able to speak/heal and not >being able to use items/wands without losing -all- your ability >reverting. Even if you're lucky enough to get a regen form (not >even guaranteed for defensive shifters) there is no compare.

The controls offset losing haste/stone skin/etc when you shift and revert. I find that certain wands and preps make the shifters very powerful even with the risk of certain spells falling if you revert. Not being able to heal in form at a healer is a drawback, but often times you might be able to figure out a way to revert and heal, or at least run very fast.

Regeneration forms are always useful. I know that running around in circles with your sand lizard is always a good time. I also had a crocodile that got into a fight with an assassin. Even though he ran to healers to heal himself and come back to fight, there was no way I was going to die in that fight.

>There are many other drawbacks/advantages. Many of the advantages
> the best mentioned above, in No.2) do warrant big drawbacks.
>
>The thing that killed the shifter, is that more and more drawbacks >were added as they went along. Todays shifters, usually require >cabals and good (random) shape combo's to succeed. Few other cabals >have powers that do much at all to help and Scion shifters simply >have cabal powers perfect for them. Little things like this add up >into a nasty picture I discovered with my experiment.

You also have to take into account you don't have to be in form in fights. I know it sounds like a death sentence, but if you are ready for it, you can usually wands and staves to an advantage. So even if you get a combination or a form that most folks consider less then perfect, you can still utilize other skills of the class.

Shifters can do well uncaballed and I would say most, if not all, forms are good. Harkan is a good example in this respect(in many ways other then actual PK). He did well with his forms eagle/dolphin uncaballed. Perhaps he is one of the exceptions, but anyone can do what he did with the right amount of planning and understanding the strengths/weaknesses of the classes. Any cabal that shifters are welcomed in can do well. Can you imagine a falcon/cobra justiciar(or even vindicator for that fact)?

Another advantage of shifters is that even naked they have the same output of damage. Can your warrior say he can hit as hard as a naked lion?

The drawback of this, of course, is that gear doesn't help you as much as a warrior. But with efficient use of gear, the shifter can easily play up to their strengths. With +HP gear(which is fairly easy to find), you make him that much heartier. You don't have to focus on balancing gear. You can ignore saves vs spells, strength, damage roll, hit rolls, etc. Makes lazy people like myself have a much easier time.

>Every single class out there bar healers, has the ability to >cripple a shifter. Knowing their forms, complete avoidance can be >possible (even if you sacrificed a focus for an airform). I'd whip >up a list for this but it'd be long and boring. I don't think any >other class can claim as much vulnerability as that.
>
>Except Brundlebin, but he was in a class of his own.

Several forms have ways to hide from the playerbase. Wildcat camos and creeps. It might be difficult to avoid that if you didn't know the shifter was watching you for the last ten minutes. Tiger and dolphin has pounce. Granted you have to be in the fight for this to happen and it won't always succeed, but it still does the job against unprepared foes. Air forms have flyto and most(if not all, I can't remember) water forms have swimto. Dolphin(and other water forms) has underwater camoflauging too. Naturally a prepared foe will do better against you, but this is the case with any class.

Certain forms aren't as affected by maledictions then others. Crocodiles for example usually sit and take the punishment(and a fully prepared crocodile can be very hard to kill, with maledictions or not).

>I'm very interested to see how this Hyzin character plays out, >because as far as I can see he's the first shifter to gain 3 foci. >That's something I suggested once, but was shot down. Mainly >because some of the very difficult to get (probability wise) >combo's such as owl/tiger/croc were deemed overpowered. I don't >think such a combo would be invincible but sure, it'd be hella >tough. I'd also bet people would learn that having the option to >shift for another advantage (fly/pounce/regen) - and actually >shifting to use every single ability - is a hell of a lot harder >than you think.

Hyzin is doing well(I won't say too much about him, but from what I have heard/seen of him, he's awesome). In terms of the "overpoweredness" of the owl/tiger/croc, I think it would be(I can be wrong on this account though). Its not so much if people would use all their resources, but if people could use it. It may be difficult to shift to use all your abilities, but you can still use it.

>My essay, complete. I apologise for ranting, this is one of the >only subjects I'm nearly convinced I'm right in (we all have one I >guess).

No need to apologize for posting something that could facilitate a meaningful debate/discussion. If people didn't discuss what they think of certain classes/races/etc then we wouldn't have anything to go on when we change things for the betterment of the MUD.

>Edit - If you've read it all the way through, you're amazing. Well >done. I barely managed to do it once myself.

I guess I am amazing then

-Alenysi

>2. They are the least versatile of all the mage classes.

Don't forget you still have some spells, wands, staves, scrolls, and all the tricks a humanoid character is capable of. It would be a stupid (or very intentionally role-hampered) shifter who regularly ran around trying to whip people in human form, but a well-played shifter will know when to make decisive use of it.

Consider that even offense/defense (probably the most boring shifter choice possible) can brandish a staff at a key moment or, much more frequently, revert and word away from any of many situations in the game that make fleeing difficult or impossible. A warrior has to burn a legacy to have even the poor man's version of that.

Versatility or lack thereof is a function of foci choice, too. A utility major has an excellent chance of having a good use for every form they have at hero. Defense/air, not so much. Not to say that every shifter should be a utility major, but if versatility is what you really want, maybe you should be.

>3. Not being able to speak is possibly the worst set back to
>any classes power. Ever.

It depends on the character. It means a lot less to, say, a Maran shifter, who shouldn't really get slept by necromancers and anti-paladins very much. It means nothing to a purely solo uncaballed character.

I'll readily agree, though, that it's much worse of a drawback than most players give it credit for.

>4. While their strengths/weaknesses vary with combo's, this
>remains true - Shifters have more vulnerabilities tactically
>than any other class.

I don't agree with this.

>Every single class out there bar healers, has the ability to
>cripple a shifter.

Eh. I don't necessarily agree with that; even when it's true, it generally comes at a painful opportunity cost. For example, maybe I can really screw you with a certain sequence of maledictions and insure you can't win if you stick around past round six, but I run out of hit points in round four.

To add to the versatility I'd propose one of two things.

1. Make third tier forms functional at hero. As it stands, you have to get lucky (nearly all offensive, defensive and air forms are useless, a lot of the utility look strong however and water shifters have amazing forms all the way). The lottery system can work but the fact that shifters are also inherently boring doesn't help when you only really end up using 2 (three if you're lucky!!) forms. Variety is the spice of life, lets at least throw that much in. Maybe give 3rd tier offensive forms more defense (so if you're low on hp, but want to keep some damage output, you could switch.) and something similar for defensive. More varied abilities would be nice as well. Utility forms seem to get a wide variety, why not let offensive forms do maledicts (something along the lines of weak panther maledicts, or one-time shots for -3 dex/strength). Defensive forms can be given a bit more offense at third tear (tortoise bash!! Concuss your foe) without really ruining them. Switching to use a single ability still takes 1 round of combat. A lot longer if you've been maledicted. This sounds like a handy change. As it'd make shifter pk start before 42/43.

2. Give people a third focus, and if it sounds like overpowering then arrange it that their third choice is weaker. (for example, third choice offensive gives you a jaguar! Or Anaconda for defensives The weakest flyer with only average combat ability - A water form that isn't the super-pounce dolphin, etc.) This way they'll be very nearly be the shifters they are now. But with a weaker ability from another path. I know I'm being cynical with 'what forms are weak' but they can always be tweaked to the new system. This is likely true for all my posts concerning shifters.

If you want to put in precautions against overpoweredness, what you might end up with is three catagories of forms. Major, intermediate and minor. This could end up with nearly being able to 'choose' your forms once the number crunchy people figure out which forms go where. If so, simply have each catagory increase the chance of getting certain forms. Picked major offense? Its 30% lion, 30% tiger, 30% ram and 10% panther. Intermediate? Forget the lion, 30%tiger, 30% panther, 30% jaguar and 10% Alligator. Picked the weak one? Alligator 40% Jaguar 40% Panther 20%. Along those lines. Maybe forms will need tweaking, but its an idea. I like 1. better.

More ideas! Yay!


Yhorian.

Mana per hour useage on 'third option' forms could be heavy.

This would greatly punish people who picked air forms so they could fly about with their fox/lion combo - imagine needing 50-60 mana per hour to keep a form going *grin* It certainly makes my second option sound like a really good trade. Mana would also become a gearing option with shifters at hero, not only hp.

Taking away something else, like spiderhands(near useless anyway) and fumble (awesome vs knocked out targets!) would even things out. There's plenty they could sacrifice to make three options even out. It certainly sounds better each time I run up the combinations in my head. Very few are truly overpowered and most would make them really interesting (Ram/Anaconda/Vulture, Lion/Mongoose/Alligator, Dolphin/Osprey/Jaguar, Lemur/Porcupine/Hyena, Eagle/Squid/Tiger, Lion/Tiger/Sand lizard ). I want one already An urge many players might have never felt before! I'd even be willing to juggle the tiers to make pk start lower (get a first major form at 39-41? About when Invokers get shields, conjurers have their major servitors, Transmuters have duo already and Necro's have PWK! (he he))

Thinking this way about shifters, even quest forms don't become obsolete. From what I can tell, they'd often combine two foci strengths (flying defense, water offense, defense utility, etc) and this would simply be a cheaper option that meant you didn't have to shift more to gain xxx advantage at that moment.

Yhorian.

>Taking away something else, like spiderhands(near useless
>anyway) and fumble (awesome vs knocked out targets!) would
>even things out.

I'm not interested in taking away versatility options that typically only the most creative and skilled shifters get use out of and using that to justify powering up the class in general.

While we're at it we might as well take away offhand disarm and dash and give warriors two more legacies and deathblow in trade.

Just make more interesting. Forms have been lowered in power in the past, and a lot of disadvantages added. I'm saying lower them a bit more in some way, and give an extra path for variety.


Yhorian.

You can't include dash as a low end power skill. Dash is easily one of the nastiest things warriors (dependant on spec of couse) have, and it is totally unique. Dash is just a damned amazing skill.

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

>Dash is
>easily one of the nastiest things warriors (dependant on spec
>of couse) have, and it is totally unique. Dash is just a
>damned amazing skill.

Agreed; however, probably 90% of warriors don't use it. It's a good example of a skill that gives warriors a lot of tactical versatility that most players let fall by the wayside.

I can dash out from behind a cabal guard and smack someone, but I can't dash much during a fight on eastern with risking the necro walking in on me whilst I am trying to type "dash w bash necro"

My last warrior that I played much used it lots, but in raids/defenses.

If I played another one, there would be some limited number of moves I would want to use with dash lots, and for those I would set up macros like it is common to use with creep. For instance CTRL+NUM6 would be dash east hamstring $target

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

And shifters are a-ok as is. Lore learning rate still sucks btw.

You can consider this a troll if you like, but if a number of your more experienced players are telling you that shapeshifters are lacking, perhaps you should look a little deeper. I personally haven't played a shifter in quite a while, and my last one was an exploring type character, but I fear shapeshifters about as much as I fear being assassinated.... Sure, if I'm a complete moron or the person on the other end is leagues better I'll get assassinated/killed by a shifter, but day in and day out I ignore the possibility of it happening because I know I'll come out ahead 95%+ of the time.

>You can consider this a troll if you like,

And how!

>but if a number of
>your more experienced players are telling you that
>shapeshifters are lacking, perhaps you should look a little
>deeper.

I introduce Exhibit A,
a Tac post entitled "Ive never feared an ap."

Also, rereading it, many of the things in it are true regardless of how badass cabdru was. For instance, I still consider AP's easy pickings as a general rule, and I generally beat the #### out of them. Also, I still don't see how an ap could avoid a determined binder thief taking his weapon, despite you saying to had a plan for that, I don't see it. Also, Cabdru had full wand sets at 36... this is (extremely?) abnormal... I beleive that entire post was about binder thief vs ap and not the general strength of the ap class. Of course an ap with a bunch of charges is strong. An ap with wands is strong... A shifter with wands is... well a shifter with wands. They may not go down as fast, but you shouldn't be dying to them either. Kind of like an assassin that only assassinates.... you may not be able to land the kill if you are assassinate wary, but you aren't going to die to them either unless they have insane tracking ability and the patience to stalk for hours for one decent oportunity.

You think shifters are fine, and no doubt you could woop ass with one, but that doesn't change the fact they are tactically boring and weak.

Question for you: Do you consider shifters frightening at all? Do you consider AP's frightening as a general rule? Or, like me, do you generally consider them weak and easy to kill unless proven otherwise by an obviously skillful player.

I have no clue who anyone is with regards to characters to handles, so I'm a bit curious. What are some of your characters? I'd like to see your stats vs APs and shifters. Personally I don't think anyone should fear anyone, just rework how you fight if need be. A blanket statement of just I can whoop that classes ass with anything sounds pretty damn cocky though.

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

Unfortunately I can't oblige your request. Other than Tac and my current character I don't remember many (or possibly any) of my past characters names. I had a rager assassin a ways back, but I don't think she had a purchased PBF... actually I think only Tac was a purchased PBF... I don't generally play characters that are around for a long time and generate enough interest (in me or others) that they get stats published. The one before my current got busted for a perma that didn't exist, so I was off for a few months due to sour mouth taste... in that time I've forgotten any character names I would have known. How about this, we'll see how my current character does against those classes.

I tried to look up what few names I could sort of remember, but came up with nothing.

If they're far enough back battlefield posts came with pk ratios, not exactly a class by class breakdown, but if you're whipping the #### out of two classes you can't be doing too bad against the rest.

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

I lose to warriors... a lot. I am nearly convinced that bash will always permalag me and never permalag my opponent. Also, despite my best efforts to avoid sleep, necro's get me more often than I get them, though if I'm not a lowbie I tend to survive. Assassin and thieves rarely get me solo, but thieves (in my experience) never are. Trannies that land nuero's get me, and invokers tend to eat me for lunch. Also I suck in any group vs group fight. Evil conjies are also tough, though I don't encounter these often.


I just looked up Tac's stats and they were 1 and 1 vs shifter, and 6 and 3 vs ap. This does not particularly support my post, but Tac also had detect invis up about 2% of his lifetime (yes an exageration) so I know at least 1 of those AP deaths was a matter of never seeing it coming. The 1 loss to a shifter was a 3-4 maran on Tac + 2 uninvolved nuetral groupmates in Thar-Acacia with that bash legacy dwarf permalagging me and the air shifter getting the last hit. I'm sure it sounds like I'm making excuses, but Tac really was an attempt to go beyond my skill level. My inability to gather even basic preps without buying, and the forgoing of a second spec really isn't something I think I'm good enough to pull off, and I have no idea why I even tried.

Barring the other stats what you're basically saying is you kick the #### out of APs and shifters, a draw on assassins and thieves, and get pimp slapped by anything else? Damn, really interested in what and how you play.

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

Last few (excluding current) were fire warrior outlander swords and maces... was doing pretty well until I was made allyless (not a perma), then I ate a stupid death to Grysh? (felar warrior dagger spec) which I blame on ancient instincts being stupid (I can't figure it out so I'm pretty sure I'm the stupid one) and that legacy that hits when you look away (don't spam)... I lost a pretty good set. I then basically gave up on him and ate probably 5 more deaths being stupid. Before that was Tac... this character evolved roughly the same way with the exception that hth + no preps meant I killed no one at low levels, and I could never keep a good set + exotics long enough with the imperial invoker, trannie, and whoever else they had in tow to get anything done. Also a character I gave up upon and then died a bunch. Previous to Tac, I don't think I played anything to a high level.... I was probably playing a bunch of very poor to mediocre ap's that weren't successful enough at 36 and were deleted. I've played several rager assassins and been pretty successful with those. I played a gnome defense defense around Blitz's time with porc/goose, and had him frustrated to death with me until he got thunderlance (goose doesn't dodge shock thingy) even though he was using poor tactics (wouldn't wield one mace imperial defense and boneshatter while I was porc).

So... I play mostly melee classes and while my recent warriors have been outlanders, I would rather gnaw off my left arm then sit around waiting to suprise someone with chameleon. I'm not a good player, but I know what I am good against, and shifters and ap's that aren't wanded up are easy pickings.

Ohh I should mention that most (all?) of the reason I think I get tooled by mages is that I rarely have saves.

Yeah, I'm just going to leave it at if you say so.

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

.

nt

I've played my share of shifters. My stance is they aren't broken, they're just boring is all. If all a necro got was PWK and it worked 80% of the time, would you say he was underpowered, or just lacking in versatility? I'd hope the latter. Which really just translates to boring. Now if you're really coming out ahead 95% of the time then I can think of only a few possibilities. You're fighting an armadillo one on one. You're a damn good player. You fight complete retards. You only play hide/camo characters who only step out of cover when prepped out their ass with a couple friends. You're exaggerating, a lot. I would say my average pk ratio for shifters was 9-1, even saying I'm an above average player that would put average at say 5-1. Now why is that? Because while shifters may not have a pletora of options, they are good at what they do. Ever try to out damage a ram? Out dodge a mongoose? Out run an eagle? Even assuming you are whooping on a shifter, how hard is it for them to get away? And since they have maybe a whole two choices on commands they're able to reengage pretty damn quick if you try to run, unlike those bash spamming warriors. I don't play shifters anymore, but again, it isn't because they're broke, they're boring. You want something that requires a little more thought go play a non-sword-spec-giant-bash-legacy warrior. If all you want to do is type murder bob, shifter is probably the class for you.

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

What Karel might miss, is that once your tactics are figured out you are pretty much not going to die to that shifter. Its hard to vary tactics when you have 2 limited forms.

I wanted to de-power some, and add variety. Not overpower them with huge nasty combo's. Giving them a wider variety of abilities to fight with instead of just the predictability I get from them.

With Kaisse, I tore shifters apart. Mostly because I had a dagger/whip spec. But also because they are plain predictable after the first 2-3 fights. Like the crocodile/dolphin Lucan. His tactics were so limited it was scary. He could fight on water, and near own me. Or he could sit there with a regening croc and bite. This isn't like a ranger out of the wilds with options, its just plain boring to try luring someone who knows not to fight you on water.


Yhorian.

Well for that player sure, avoid water, pretty simple prevention. That's the price those players pay for being the badasses of waterland. Anywhere else they half half of their already limited options. I think the point I didn't make clear enough really was that shifters aren't really a "tactics" class. I mean sure, you need to know which of your two forms to go with for the fight, but that's it. My favorite combo was mongoose/tiger. You know the tactics for fighting that? Avoid. All I had to do was whittle down a little as a goose, then go tiger and wait to pounce, or chase murder and pounce then. Not exactly rocket science, but it was effective. Risk to myself? Very little. Now that was before stat effects actually did anything to shifters, so certain classes have a better time of it now. The only thing I really see "wrong" with shifters is the possible uselessness of a second top tier form. Like going double defense and getting the armadillo and croc. Of course that dumbass would deserve it, but that really isn't the point. Even then I don't think there are many combos where the second form is redundant, and it would generally have to be the same focus, like lion/ram. Anyways.

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

>With Kaisse, I tore shifters apart.

I don't know, man. Yes, shifters were most of Kaisse's kills, but they also killed him more than any other class except warrior (and even that's a close race).

I'm not sure how a class can run you out of 6 con and yet not be a threat to you, and that's me thinking Kaisse was awesome saying that.

But they came in hoardes. I often killed 2 at a time, making for some pissed shifters. Then I'd get them chasing me down as I ran to the village from whatever other foe was fighting me.

You can understand their eagerness to get me, even if it meant allying with god knows who for no reason other than that. That is what caused most of my deaths. Either that, or it was me learning to fight Lucan on the water I got ambushed by him from camo more than a few times. Water forms have never really been part of my argument - they're big powerful beasties with a heck of a limitation. Fight on water only? Thats just frustrating, if you wasted an entire focus on it - but I suppose it might be worth it to some. Its the fact that even then you have boring, limited tactics.

Yhorian.

>I've played my share of shifters. My stance is they aren't
>broken, they're just boring is all. If all a necro got was PWK
>and it worked 80% of the time, would you say he was
>underpowered, or just lacking in versatility?

If PWK worked 80% of the time, it would be massively overpowered.

>I'd hope the
>latter. Which really just translates to boring. Now if you're
>really coming out ahead 95% of the time then I can think of
>only a few possibilities. You're fighting an armadillo one on
>one.

If I'm fighting an armadillo one on one... well he better be a death trap, but that is a pointless battle.

>You're a damn good player.

Not remotely.

>You fight complete retards.

Mostly.

>You only play hide/camo characters who only step out of cover
>when prepped out their ass with a couple friends.

My last several have been hide/camo, but the air shifter in the fortress when I was playing Tac (hand/hour) was a non-factor. I didn't kill him, and stun certainly helped, but if I wasn't an outlander (with no second spec) I'm pretty sure that's a battle that ends with him flying away at least 75% of the time, and he was decent.

>You're
>exaggerating, a lot. I would say my average pk ratio for
>shifters was 9-1, even saying I'm an above average player that
>would put average at say 5-1.

Then you are fighting retards, people in death traps, or the severly hurt.

>Now why is that? Because while
>shifters may not have a pletora of options, they are good at
>what they do. Ever try to out damage a ram?

Yes, and successfully. They hit hard and dodge like rocks, one good malediction, and you can outdamage them because all of a sudden they are much easier to parry, and aren't throwing as many attacks your way.

>Out dodge a mongoose?

An assassin can outtank a mongoose even without preps or maledicting.

>Out run an eagle?

See: potions. As a rager... it's a little different, but then unless the eagle is wanded out the wazzoo he's going down fast.

>Even assuming you are whooping on
>a shifter, how hard is it for them to get away?

Considerably harder than it is for me to get away from them?

>And since they
>have maybe a whole two choices on commands they're able to
>reengage pretty damn quick if you try to run, unlike those
>bash spamming warriors.

Anyone can spam murder... or pincer... or trip... or lash... or sleep. Having fewer options at your disposal shouldn't be a benefit in reengaging.

>I don't play shifters anymore, but
>again, it isn't because they're broke, they're boring.

Agreed.

> You
>want something that requires a little more thought go play a
>non-sword-spec-giant-bash-legacy warrior. If all you want to
>do is type murder bob, shifter is probably the class for you.

Shifter is not the class for me, nor would I consider it a class for anyone unless they are looking to explore certain areas, or gang the #### out of people, or prey on the injured with a major offense form vs people ranking and 9 lvls lower.

Yes I am aware that people are dying all the time to Crulvane's goose and eagle and Hyzin's gryphon... These people are ragers or idiots or being ganked.

>If PWK worked 80% of the time, it would be massively
>overpowered.
Maybe it was a bad analogy, but you're purposely missing the point on that.

>>You fight complete retards.
>
>Mostly.

Well, fight better people then. Afterwards come back and talk about it.

>Then you are fighting retards, people in death traps, or the
>severly hurt.

Actually, most of the players I fought at the time were fairly good, or gangs of people.

>Yes, and successfully. They hit hard and dodge like rocks,
>one good malediction, and you can outdamage them because all
>of a sudden they are much easier to parry, and aren't throwing
>as many attacks your way.

Really? So you only play classes that can land that one good malediction and also dish out large damage?

>An assassin can outtank a mongoose even without preps or
>maledicting.

Can I have the number to your dealer, please.

>See: potions. As a rager... it's a little different, but then
>unless the eagle is wanded out the wazzoo he's going down
>fast.

See dictionary: outrun. An eagle can revert and c word, that isn't running. And once again, you seem to just be thinking of the best possible advesary for the situation, I can do that all day long for any class and combo you give and prove they are all weak and worthless.

>Considerably harder than it is for me to get away from them?

Only if they have severe mental disabilities while being drunk and stoned out of their gourd.

>Anyone can spam murder... or pincer... or trip... or lash...
>or sleep. Having fewer options at your disposal shouldn't be
>a benefit in reengaging.

Maybe not, but it is. Simple things for simple people.

>Agreed.

Ummm, no, you don't. You think they're broke, so you disagree.

>Shifter is not the class for me, nor would I consider it a
>class for anyone unless they are looking to explore certain
>areas, or gang the #### out of people, or prey on the injured
>with a major offense form vs people ranking and 9 lvls lower.
>
>Yes I am aware that people are dying all the time to
>Crulvane's goose and eagle and Hyzin's gryphon... These
>people are ragers or idiots or being ganked.

If you say so.

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

>My last several have been hide/camo, but the air shifter in
>the fortress when I was playing Tac (hand/hour) was a
>non-factor. I didn't kill him, and stun certainly helped, but
>if I wasn't an outlander (with no second spec) I'm pretty sure
>that's a battle that ends with him flying away at least 75% of
>the time, and he was decent.

But all that being said, how many times did you kill him?

>Yes, and successfully. They hit hard and dodge like rocks,
>one good malediction, and you can outdamage them because all
>of a sudden they are much easier to parry, and aren't throwing
>as many attacks your way.

I'm pretty sure your standard maledictions don't to #### to the number of attacks. Ease of parrying, damage... sure, but I've still seen an awful lot of people try to impale an offensive or water shifter and die in the impale lag.

>>Out dodge a mongoose?
>
>An assassin can outtank a mongoose even without preps or
>maledicting.

That's not true in the general sense.

>But all that being said, how many times did you kill him?

Once? I didn't see or fight many shifters. I had little maledicting power, and we had a semi-truce.

>>Yes, and successfully. They hit hard and dodge like rocks,
>>one good malediction, and you can outdamage them because all
>>of a sudden they are much easier to parry, and aren't
>throwing
>>as many attacks your way.
>
>I'm pretty sure your standard maledictions don't to #### to
>the number of attacks. Ease of parrying, damage... sure, but
>I've still seen an awful lot of people try to impale an
>offensive or water shifter and die in the impale lag.

I've always been under the impression dex affected # of attacks, but I can't see the code, so I could be wrong.

>>>Out dodge a mongoose?
>>
>>An assassin can outtank a mongoose even without preps or
>>maledicting.
>
>That's not true in the general sense.
>

Specifically an assassin vs a mongoose fighting with mongoose hasted and assassin not an assassin will hide hard enough to make the goose flee first. There is an old log of this, and my experiences have been similar. In the general case, goose dodges more stuff than melee, but then an assassin has loads more available too.

>Because while
>shifters may not have a pletora of options, they are good at
>what they do. Ever try to out damage a ram? Out dodge a
>mongoose? Out run an eagle? Even assuming you are whooping on
>a shifter, how hard is it for them to get away? And since they
>have maybe a whole two choices on commands they're able to
>reengage pretty damn quick if you try to run, unlike those
>bash spamming warriors. I don't play shifters anymore, but
>again, it isn't because they're broke, they're boring. You
>want something that requires a little more thought go play a
>non-sword-spec-giant-bash-legacy warrior. If all you want to
>do is type murder bob, shifter is probably the class for you.

This isn't quite where I'm at (I don't see them as that boring) but it's close. It's not that shifters don't have a variety of options so much as 90% of the time, a certain set of tactics will probably work well enough.

It would be nice for a class like that to play in a little more interesting way, and someday they probably will, but it's not at the top of my list; there are a lot of projects that are either more interesting or more pressing to me.

Of course, if you bribe Zulghinlour or Sebeok with enough beer, you never know.

Yeah, I want to get someone drunk so they'll code something... isn't that how we ended up with mino speech?

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

Just to know if we could get something for shifters on 'the list'.

I'll keep bugging you every 1-2 months, I trust whatevers on the list is likely better for the game in general. You know, like my Sliger. *hint hint*

Cheers,
Yhorian.

> Of course, if you bribe Zulghinlour or Sebeok with enough beer, you never know.

What do American beer and sex in a canoe have in common?
Both are ####ing close to water

>While we're at it we might as well take away offhand disarm
>and dash and give warriors two more legacies and deathblow in
>trade.

No, you don't need to give warriors a thing more.

We were discussing this and it came down to a few things.

Warriors are already the most deathful class on the mud. They have varied ways of lag (some great, some not), can dish out incredible amounts of damage, can almost get the same preps as mages (barring barrier of course) and of course, they can seal kills far easier than mages. Sure, they die, but a trained monkey could also get 20 kills as a warrior. It's far harder to do that as a mage.

Shifters, on the other hand, were discussed, and people's consensus was that if you really want to be deathful, don't play one. Maybe your spider sense calls #### on this, Nepenthe, but their vulnerabilities can indeed be exploited more than any other class, you have a good deal of restrictions (as soon as you get maledicted, you eat a dismember reverting AND there's lag on top of the shift?). But honestly, could you rack up nearly as many kills with said shifter as you did with Cabdru, were your forms not-so-good? I don't think so.

OK. From now own, shifters need to all be able to rack up as many kills as Cabdru. That seems like a fair enough request to me. Please make them able to lag, drain moves, and hit for unspeaks.

>Sure, they die, but a trained
>monkey could also get 20 kills as a warrior. It's far harder
>to do that as a mage.

I woiuldn't go that far. But, see below.

>Shifters, on the other hand, were discussed, and people's
>consensus was that if you really want to be deathful, don't
>play one.

A shifter isn't going to rack up as many kills as a warrior, typically (though there are exceptions); conversely, they're also going to die a whole lot less. Witness characters like Vorlan and Harken (sp?), who ran extremely favorable ratios as shifter in the last year or so. Few shifters are going to have tons of kills, and few warriors are going to have few deaths.

Typically (and I'm not including you personally in this), the people who complain most about the weaknesses of shifters serially play successful shifters.

I'm very interested to see how this Hyzin character plays out, because as far as I can see he's the first shifter to gain 3 foci.

Aesrira(Lightmage's Harbinger) was porc/gator/raven.

I'll look her up, thanks Dur.

Yhorian.

Actually, quest forms have been around about as long as shifters. The only name I can think of off the top of my head is Anith who had the raven, didn't seem like a super great form but was funny as hell hearing people scream about getting their eyes pecked out. The forms I remember seein though were things like ice drake, gargoyle, kraken, wolverine, displacer beast, yeti (god I remember fighting that bastard when shifters couldn't be parried, ugh), ummm... I'm forgetting a lot of them. Oh, the nightmare too. They're were all pretty interesting. Check the forms helpfile, that last paragraph is about these types of forms. They don't have a focus, although generally the do seem to fit into that shifters focus. On the other hand some shifters do get an extra normal form for a reward for whatever. Generally those are somewhat minor though, a gazelle or sand lizard, useful but you aren't going to run and gun with them. All in all I'd say they're less rare the last few years then before. Go RP your ass off, and don't ask for one, and you might get one.

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

Is for the chance to get a quest form. I think every class can become boring after you play them for a while. When you have an end goal it forces you to up your role play, working towards something unknown.

I have had a few quest forms, and they were the highlight of my CF time. Raven, was just plain cool. Small chance of blinding, but otherwise no diferent other than description. I loved it because it was unique. Kraken, was also pretty cool. Massive damage reduction vs weapons/Squid. It couldnt swimto murder, was slow as hell, but was still my number one favorite moment of CF. Neither were overpowered, but they meant alot to the player. (Not that I dont want to play some overpowered form one day. One that people will bitch about like Cabdru or Wolverine, ect. )

I know shifters have their weakness and are really limited. I overlook that for the attempt. Most of the time, you fail in the attempt, but every once and a while, roleplay clicks, unique role clicks, you impress an Immortal somehow to kind of back you up.

I find I am more successful when I just relax, treat people with respect, and play a char that is fun to watch or be around. WHen you play the prick chars, nothing is going to happen (except Nepenthe disses in your PBF )

More shifters!!

Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.