I was wondering what the imm, think about dwarfs, killing dern? ive seen fortress dwarf's killing him with many caracthers, and i have also been doin it myself.

ill hope i will get some answers from you all

Now whether or not you have a ROLE entry or not, you still have some form of role in the CF world.

When I play certain races I always have a reserve (right word?) about killing others of my kin. This, I think, would go double for a dwarf.

A wise man once said:

"My personal view is that race/align/religion/cabal should always be a consideration when ranking/gaining gear. If i'm evil, for example, and am given the choice of killing elves or killing pixies, my first thought would be elves--because elves contribute to the world at large, and all the evil joys of extinguishing those brilliant points of light.

Similarly, those neutrals/goodies that have no problem killing the king of their people without any type of rp also irk me--one could at least yell out a challenge before jumpin' on the poor guy!

Ultimately, my meaning is a well defined character will have ideas about who and what they should kill and under what scenarios--and that is what I would be looking for. Of course, yelling "yeehaw" and killing every monk npc in the game might not be a great starting point."

I've come to learn that keeping yourself from killing this person or that for the sake of gear or exp points is a difficult task indeed. But when it boils down, I will have become a better player for taking that extra moment to find alternative ways to better my character, that don't push the line.

I hope that helps.

"Then hunger proved more powerful than grief." - Count Ugolino and the Tower of Hunger

Let me phrase this argument another way. Having recently played Bliggy, a Fort dwarf, I found that assuming Dern had a full set, I could re-arm myself with a -full- competitive hero set within 15 minutes of a full loot, assuming my friends helped me kill him. All of Dern's stuff, drop by sewers for collars, aldevari for garnet rings, arboria for some bracelets, and I'm good to go, just need to gather a prep or two. Keep in mind that, being a complete newbie, I had no idea Dern existed until about 200 hours in to my char. Total re-arming time, maybe 15 minutes, giving me -plenty- of time to gather preps and gold (which is much more difficult when you are newb - trust me).

Before I knew Dern was there, it would take me perhaps an hour to request/kill for a set that would be less than _half_ as effective. Keep in mind, again, that I am fairly new, and didn't have the uber 1337 area knowledge that everyone else has. I knew there was -something- in the Kuo Toa lair, but being a dwarf with hydrophobia means its damned hard to get there, and I never really bothered to try. And then I still had to go get preps. Bleh.

Explain to me why I should spend 45 more minutes gathering a set which would do so much less when I could avoid doing all that just by getting Dern once?

Keep in mind a few things:

1) CF is just a game. Sure, its not the best roleplay in the world, but isn't being anal about roleplay just as powergamey as being anal about gear? More so, even, because while spiked stuff -isn't- the best stuff you can get for a dwarf, its damned close and a lot more convenient.

2) Does making newbies spend another 45 minutes of their life re-arming every time they get full looted as a dwarf add anything to the game?

3) While, of course, the super-uber-pros who've played this game for years can easily make a powerful effective goodie char who has never killed a single neutral in his entire life, can you even -imagine- trying to play an effective warrior (arguably the most gear-dependent class in the game) who can't kill neutrals and has little to no knowledge of game areas? I know the answer to this one! "ASK AROUND IC, OTHER GOODIES WILL BE HAPPY TO HELP YOU!" Yeah, they will, but recently my last character, Dinian, Fortie Thief, got criticized for being too gear-oriented on CB, and I was HOLDING BACK most my gear whorishness. Yeesh. Think of the newbies, people.

Yeah sure, there are preventative measures for ALL of these problems, available ESPECIALLY to the pros who've played for 10 years! But... do we _really_ need to make the game that much harder for newbies?

I fully support the movement to turn Dern into a bloody duergar and end the bloody conversation.

And I firmly believe that the people who go "I think that one is of the grey path - we shouldn't kill him/her" when someone's trying to get a freaking mantle or some spiked armor and asking for help on CB are the same freaks who enjoy watching their newbie cabalmates die like flies. It pisses me off. Seriously, people, get a life and stop stomping on every little thing. Just cause -you- can pull off a super-good-I-ownz-your-soul character without killing a single neutral doesn't mean we all should or that you should screw over your teammates who aren't all as 1337 as you.

There's no reason to make this game even more freaking difficult for newbies. Seriously. And people who can get this anal about roleplay are just as bad as people who get anal about gear. Relax. Its just a game.

>And I firmly believe that the people who go "I think that one
>is of the grey path - we shouldn't kill him/her" when
>someone's trying to get a freaking mantle or some spiked armor
>and asking for help on CB are the same freaks who enjoy
>watching their newbie cabalmates die like flies. It pisses me
>off. Seriously, people, get a life and stop stomping on every
>little thing. Just cause -you- can pull off a
>super-good-I-ownz-your-soul character without killing a single
>neutral doesn't mean we all should or that you should screw
>over your teammates who aren't all as 1337 as you.

This perspective never occured to me. I never considered things from the newbie frustration perspective, and that my playstyle might come off as me enjoying watching him die. Interesting. Not sure if this is relevant to Dern, really, but perhaps something for vets to take note of.

Let me give you some tips too... like...

>Let me phrase this argument another way. Having recently
>played Bliggy, a Fort dwarf, I found that assuming Dern had a
>full set, I could re-arm myself with a -full- competitive hero
>set within 15 minutes of a full loot, assuming my friends
>helped me kill him. All of Dern's stuff, drop by sewers for
>collars, aldevari for garnet rings, arboria for some
>bracelets, and I'm good to go, just need to gather a prep or
>two. Keep in mind that, being a complete newbie, I had no idea
>Dern existed until about 200 hours in to my char. Total
>re-arming time, maybe 15 minutes, giving me -plenty- of time
>to gather preps and gold (which is much more difficult when
>you are newb - trust me).

This scenario that you're describing doesn't build you a good set AT ALL. If you are going to wear spiked gear you HAVE to gear for dex as well. For one thing, wearing what you've described, you won't be able to carry much more than a sack and a skin in your inventory. You won't be dodging at all, and you certainly won't be looting anything if you do kill someone. When REGEARING my dwarves Dern is typically not my top priority.

>didn't have the uber 1337 area knowledge that everyone else
>has. I knew there was -something- in the Kuo Toa lair, but
>being a dwarf with hydrophobia means its damned hard to get
>there, and I never really bothered to try.

You can get here as a ghost, and I would certainly go here before I went to Dern.

I never really cared about dex, I don't think I could have dodged a fly. Its the price you pay when you weigh down your saddle bag with ale barrels. I think higher weight loses dodge but increases bash ability. Heh. With full spiked armor I had 3 dex and had to remove armor in order to get chickens out of my bag. But I averaged between 70 and 80 damroll, hit 90 more than once and I regularly hit oblits on inners without dam redux. I will admit candidly, however, that any sort of dam redux took out my effectiveness by a whole freaking lot.

And anyways, if you remove spiked armor, take out two or three preps and a canteen, and put it back on again, it isn't that big of a deal. Just have to make sure you do it -before- the fight.

Sorry Vlad. Your post might have had valid points, so feel free to repost it with a little bit less of the assholish attitude.

Thanks!

He's saying, in a nutshell "I want things changed so it will be easier for me". I just don't support change to make things easier for people who are lazy. I'm not about to spend my time sitting here, holding some idiots hand, being nice to him. If calling a spade a spade or a moron a moron makes me an asshole then so be it.

He outright said in a previous post " I knew there was -something- in the Kuo Toa lair, but being a dwarf with hydrophobia means its damned hard to get there, and I never really bothered to try. And then I still had to go get preps. Bleh."

Sorry, but if he can't be bothered to look for alternatives, I can't be bothered to not be an asshole.

Welcome to "Another Week on CF Forum Vacation^TM".

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

but... I can guess at the contents?

I'm not saying to reward laziness and stupidity, but there's the newbie factor to consider. Vlad seems to be entirely focused on the fact that yes, this would make things a bit easier for Vets. But not everyone who plays CF is a powergaming scumbag who just whores for gear and then goes for teh newbie bread pwn. Seriously, not everyone is uber-pro, and more gear restriction means the powergaming veterans get even more of an advantage - they already know ways to compensate, with other gear locations, whereas newbies have a lot more trouble with this.

Me not being really affected by this argument (i.e. not playing a dwarf anytime in the near future), I just wanted to give my point of view. No need to get all worked up about it. Its just a game, in fact, just a few pieces of gear only available to a few people in the game. Yeesh.

nt

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

His name is Robert Palson...er..Pwent.
His name is Pwent.
His name is Pwent.

Man that was a good movie.

I always say him as a total dwarf nutjob, like the jeffrey dahmer of dwarves. You find him, he jumps you, and you're in a fight with a really, really bad guy. And besides, he has no problem killing dwarves... And if he does, you should give him a drown attack weapon. *sagenod*

With Drok that is. Ideally, I think dwarves of any alignment wouldn't kill Dern. Practically, I'm loathe to hold them to that because of the handicap. Dern/Pwent gear is like, a staple of playing a dwarf.

Speaking just for myself, at this moment, I ignore it. Maybe some day we'll come up with a better option.

Aarn!

...make him a duergar?

Is there being a mad dwarf in drow city absolutely necessary for its storyline?

nt

nt

The last time there was a thread on this topic I was one of the one's making similar comments. Matter of fact, it might've been in my Gumbldink thread, I don't know.

I'm just saying there's no reason for him to be a dwarf. I'm just happy most dwarves don't go kill Ludan.

Make him a duergar. Or, perhaps make him evil and somehow perverted enough that a regular dwarf would kill him, a la Ihnzurthia in Mortorn.

This would make it ok for both duergar and dwarves of all races and roles and all that to access the spiked gear.

People are sometimes too quick to play the roleplay card. There are situations where game mechanics don't mesh 100% with roleplay, and in the interest of FUN roleplay must be compromized (not broken) to enhance game playability. I see this instance as one of those situations - and where you point to "roleplay" I point to game mechanics. Spiked armor is a reason TO play a dwarf/duergar and is almost always a good bet to regear or gear with. The solution in this situation is to make spiked armor equally accesible to dwarves as to duergar, not to say that dwarves should kill Dern because of RP. Furthermore it is not "gearwhoring" to want to wear the best possible armor. Gearwhoring is where you neglect all other aspects of the game save for getting shinies. I can think of PLENTY of dwarves who killed Dern that were certainly NOT gearwhores. Jaegrudai and Heas come to mind, obviously.

Let us also keep in mind that it's not the PC that attacks Dern, but Dern that attacks the PC. Dern also isn't serving any purpose to Dwarvenkind where he is. He's hiding in a tunnel, crazed out of his mind and trapped in drow city. It is certainly NOT a comparison to Ludan whoes a commander of a dwarven army, and keeping advancing duergar at bay. Not only that but you have to engage Ludan in combat, rather than having his crazy ass jump on you.

I'm not saying its good roleplay for a dwarf to kill Dern, but I wouldn't call it bad either. It's sort of akin to a tribunal wannabe killing tarus. Probably shouldn't be killing the people that support the city your sworn to protect, but it's also not a huge deal either. Certainly nothing like attacking city guards.

The easy solution is to turn Dern to a duergar, yea. You could also throw up an Aggro spider mob next to him, and turn him to good. That way you can't walk in and request from him without killing a tough mob. There are a million ways to deal with it, so if Nepenthe and Aarn really don't want dwarves killing Dern I would say a quick fix is in order. Certainly the answer is not to start putting all the quality gear in the hands of mobs that goods can't kill. If anything the MUD is already too slanted in that direction. That's often why I choose evil over good - so that I can kill whoever for my preps and armor. As far as requesting is concerned - it doesn't balance out. I have to share all that gear with the everghostly newbies who do more harm than good to me.

Why should the immortals change something, just to make something more accessable? What makes people think they have a right to certain gear? Whats next "Boo hoo, I can't wear darkened eq as a goodie, thats unfair!"? "Hey, can you guys make lightforged weapons work for Imperials too? Kay!"? How about "It's horribly unfair that my duergar AP can't wield Defiance, with an unholy blessing on it. MAKE IT WORK!!"? I mean, come on.

If dwarves want it, let them wait till some duergar kills him, then kill the duergar. Or let them find other gear. It's not like there is any shortage of good gear available, especially to good aligned people. I just fail to see, in this instance, where the imms should change #### around to suit a handfull of players who ignore roleplay and kill the guy anyway.

Just suck it up and find some other gear till you can catch a duergar wearing it. Then have at him. But asking the staff to make changes just to allow you unrestricted access to certain gear is just silly.

I'm fairly certain that when Pwent was put in, the imms of the time thought absolutely nothing of dwarves killing Pwent for gear. As roleplaying has improved, quality RP takes that gear out of the hands of dwarves.

What has changed is the immortal viewpoint on killing Dern. In order to both believe in a policy where it is poor RP to kill Dern, and honor the original author's intent that Pwent gear be available to good and neutral dwarves, a change would be required.

n/t

Vladamir is trying to draw comparisons to this situation that are not. Ludan is not Dern, nor is Ludan like Dern. No one is suggesting that they change the way spiked gear works - nor would changing the align of the Dern mob affect the way 99% of dwarves currently behave. We're just looking to have the original intent of Pwent preserved in a way thats RP friendly to CFs current situation.

On one hand you are arguing that the change needs to be done, then on the other you're basically saying it wouldn't change anything anyway if it IS done. If it won't change how 99% of dwarf players behave, then why bother making the change?

I get what Thaerna and Graatch are saying about intent, but you saying it won't change anything just invalidates the "need" for the change.

There is a temple nestled in the mountains of Tibet. The monks care deeply for the temple, and upkeep the grounds with the highest level of regard and love. Leading to the temple is a winding path that meanders back and forth on its way to the gate. Visitors to the temple, sadly, tread directly to the door because it is the fastest way - and ignore the path entirely. Sure there are a few visitors that respect the monks hard work on the temple grounds and take the path, but by and large they simply stomp through the carefully maintained grass and flowers. The monks in their wisdom do not wish to berate too harshly the visitors to the temple, lest they lose them as patrons. Afterall they put the door there for people to use it. So rather than try to change the inconveniant behavior of the masses they simply arrange the path to head directly for the door.

nt

Lets play chess. I'll start off with all of my pieces, and you'll be missing two rooks and two bishops and your queen. When I beat you, ridiculously easily, I'll just say suck it up. Because being the white team just means taking it up the ***.

The point of that little analogy, is that being a goodie is handicapping enough. You don't have to further handicap it. There's already a very strong pull for people who like to PK to roll evils. Thats why 2/3 of my chars are evils, because even though you have to go against ridiculous odds and even though, your allies backstab you and etc, you never have to feel guilty doing anything.

Long story short, gear is part of balance. I personally don't mind having crap gear, since I'll just gang someone else down and take theirs, but I can see how people who get like 15 pks in 400 hours would be running around in sandy cloaks if they couldn't kill off NPCs except in very limited circumstances.

Do you really think that killing sentient neutrals is that essential to get the gear that you compare it to losing most of the officers?

Being selective about who you kill is the cornerstone of Fortress RP. Always know why to kill and it has to happen for the right reasons, to protect the Light. In this, I agree with Vlad. If you consistently break your role to get gear, the character becomes very shallow. A goodie should have a good reason to kill someone in either case, and that reason shouldn't be greed. Personally, I think that killing Dern can be done as a goodie and RP:ed well. But it has to be for the right reason and the initial reason for the trip shouldn't be: let's kill Dern. For example it may be an act of mercy, followed by deep remorse over a dead comrade.

If you limited it to that, it might not be that bad. It'd still be bad, but it might not be *that* bad. The thing is, when you start applying that logic in one place, you're going to want to apply it elsewhere too, IE, request may as well be removed.

Is to put something extra in the game for good characters who won't kill sentient neutrals, etc.

I've played good characters that wouldn't do any of the questionable things. It's very hard. Other goods will treat you like you're crazy, and they're not entirely wrong. Most of the players aren't (yet) up to being able to handle that kind of challenge, and I'm not comfortable with adding, "If you have played Carrion Fields less than 8 years, good-aligned characters are not recommended" to character creation.

My opinion, leave things as they are but at some point add something extra for good-aligned characters who go above and beyond. This is not on my list for implementation any time soon, however.

But at the same time, then people would feel gypped if no one rewarded them, no one saw them, whatever. I tend to think what it would boil down to is quest driven gear or something like that, but that fosters cheating. I don't know, our system is good enough, just so long as people give other people a little bit of leniency.

They are after all the same race, and Dern is a crazed dwarf warrior. But wouldnt he recognize other dwarves?

Remove normal request from goodie dwarves.

Give give all dwarves racial request.

Make all aggro dwarf mobs non aggro to dwarves.

I've suggested this before, and I also should mention, after last time I suggested something similar, Akan changed a bit to be cooler for dwarves. Thanks!

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

Racial form of deman/request... requires you to be maxxed on in charisma to work and of course some other new skill.

Have the dwarf tell you that you need to bring the scalp
of a PC whose race is one dwarves don't like (Duergar, Orc,
or maybe Dark-Elf even?) That'd be neat. Heh, or maybe an
Outlander scalp!

- Kazadan

A lot of the time you hear things from the staff like "Well we allow it because how else is so and so character supposed to get really nice gear?". Try playing something that allows more freedom if you want unrestricted access to good ####. Duergars can use Derns stuff just as well, and can kill him all day long and even violate the body after if they want. If you play a good, ESPECIALLY a dwarf, I think killing Dern should a no-no. Playing a certain role comes with various benefits and restrictions, and I'd like to see more people paying attention to things that ought to restrict them.

I'm torn:

On one hand, roleplaywise, I absolutely think 95% of dwarven characters should not kill Dern.

On the other hand, if we restrict or eliminate too many things like that, I basically need to give out 1000 bonus hit points to anyone who picks good as their alignment just in a half-assed attempt to make the alignments fair.

I rarely, if ever, gather equipment other the basics of
basics with any of my characters and I seem to do alright.
You do not need to know where to get the "bracelets of
ultra death and doom" or "evil a$$-whoopin' sword of
mighty paladinness" to be a good PKer. Absent the very,
very, very rare gear hunt that my Scion cronies at times
would nudge me into doing with them, all of my EQ comes
from PKs, and I ain't asking for a 1000hp to break even.
Knocking all armors from dwarf characters off the list
isn't much at all.

Besides, wouldn't getting it by killing a duergar PC that
wears the gear make it worth all the more? My two cents,
- Kazadan

PS: Hell, as Runaktla my lack of knowledge in regards to
limited items was blown wide open, as every questy type
of thing I ever ran into involved a Theran version of a
limited item easter egg hunt. I suck at those, horribly.
Meanwhile of course I'd have level 20 applicants that
could look at a piece of gear and go "Oh, that's from the
Silent Tower, didn't you know?" Man I sucked at those
things.

Out of curiousity, which goodies have you played?

While, I may be reading Nep wrong, I tend to think he's speaking in generals here. IE, every situation where you shouldn't be getting gear because its bad RP. Consider going to like...Jade Vaults. Does anyone think you're going there to rid evil? No...you're going there to get gear. That kinda thing would also dictate that request is inherently bad RP for many roles, which, really it is. My proud warrior wouldn't ask another warrior for his sword, just like he wouldn't give some random uncaballed goodie his own sword.

And at the end of the day, what you'd have, is a bunch of goodies running around in shyte gear getting spam killed by evil's more lethal classes and more lethal players in general.

I've been defending goodies too much lately, since I think a lot of goodie behavior is crap, but I will say that most goodies pretty much spam die and are usually newbies. Its because of a lot of things too, not just that, for instance goodies are inherently more defensive, and less "sleep, spell up, pwk". Paladin vs AP, sure the AP might feel neutered and crappy without a big unholy weapon, but I'd wager I could still take a crappily geared AP and go gang down people and get maybe 3-4 kills in a session. That's not saying I find APs balanced, but bash=kills in ganging whereas wrath=flee/teleport.

Long story short, there's a line in the ground that you draw when you separate PCs from NPCs and asking that amount of anal retentiveness would making playing a goodie just too annoying.

Yeah, you're right, my last good align was an Entropy Paladin
back when Paladins could be chaotic. All but two since then
have been evil. Overall, I agree with your statements, but
I'll say that it would be neat if for a considerable amount
of good eq for goods required instead of killing, some task
being performed. In the general, you're right. For
specifically dwarves in a closed box, I stand by what I said.

- Kazadan

I don't think goodie dwarves should kill dern, especially. And since I am a hardcore goodie I dont even think goodies should do it at all. Dern is just a crazy dwarf, and from what I can tell, he is crazy becauses hes living with all those drow. My goodie char right now wants to find a way to free him, haha...like thats going to happen. I have mo reasons, and I have had a few discussions with the various dwarves in the fortress(three of them from what I remember, yes I know, I am the annoying anti kill anything that isnt evil except for golems, and anything that is harming an innocent).