I have to admit that I'm a bit shocked at the results of the current "most challenging poll." I immediatly chalked up my vote toward invokers being the hardest class to play. I don't think it's possible to have a powerful invoker hero in under 200 hours at the SOONEST, and more likely 300 hours. Compare that to even the APs (the highest ranked by far) with the roughest go of it and you certainly don't have THAT many hours to hero.

As far as PKing is concerned, APs are pretty fricking good right out of the gate - and certainly a far better PKer than an invoker who doesn't actually get powerful until about the 40s. Plus to actually land a kill with an invoker you have to be a bit more savvy than "zap self" bash bash bash.

I'm not trying to say that APs are not difficult, but I'm thinking people are saying that they are just because its hard to get a 100 charge axe. Yea, it should be hard to get!

I think its easier to build an average AP than an average invoker. say having 50/50 on the PK ratio, heroed and caballed, an AP would be way easier to build.

Does sleeping disarm bypass noremove?
Or does Unholy Blessing remove that flag?

Cause if both of those are not true then I dont see how I would ever get disarmed with an unholy, asleep or awake.

>Does sleeping disarm bypass noremove?

No

>Or does Unholy Blessing remove that flag?

Yes

>Cause if both of those are not true then I dont see how I
>would ever get disarmed with an unholy, asleep or awake.

Now, to be fair, I've never been in the position where I've had to fight a particularly tough ap, but there it is. As a matter of fact, not only to do *not* fear them, I consider them "easy pickings" because their survivability is so low. Sure, I've died to one who got me slept and spelled up.... And yes, I've been tooled by one straight up... However, if I'm out hunting and see an ap, you better beleive I'm going for the kill as literally any class (that has RP reason to want to kill them) and they never send me running for my life in this situation.

As for playing an AP. Here a thought. No matter how badass you are, or how prepped you are, or how cautious you are, a naked and determined full binder thief can take and destroy your weapon without you having any real way of preventing them. Even a duerger will get jacked eventually.

When I play AP's, I generally find that any class I can't two round (or close to two round) will massacre me early, and since I still try and fight them, I've never gotten enough charges to see if this changes at any point.

And to echo other statements, botting a voker isn't hard, it's just time consuming and boring.

Tac, player of many many many very mediocre to bad AP's.

>As for playing an AP. Here a thought. No matter how badass
>you are, or how prepped you are, or how cautious you are, a
>naked and determined full binder thief can take and destroy
>your weapon without you having any real way of preventing
>them. Even a duerger will get jacked eventually.

This isn't necessarily true. I have a plan or three for this if I ever get around to playing an A-P seriously again.

If there is a way to totally prevent being knocked out, then I'd love to hear it, but if a full binder knocks you out, you will lose your weapon if that is their goal. There is a log of a binder thief doing this exact thing to that felar tribunal ap who was bitching in his graveyard thread about something or other, I don't remember. I realize it's your goal to be vague here, but explain to me how I, as a binder thief determined to jack/truss/sleeping disarm you will be unable to succeed... especially if you aren't a duergar. Quite frankly, I think it's a ridiculous situation and that iron grip should be a permanent effect, but then that's just me.

You might not be able to see my weapon, or you might not be able to take my weapon even given unlimited time.

Or you might not be able to keep me asleep for very long.

Not being able to keep you asleep for very long is certainly possible, but I don't think maintaining this at all time is something even you could keep up. *If* you play a duergar, you've got the benefit of knowing a thief is around, so you can plan for that when it's appropriate, but I still wouldn't consider this ideal.

As for not being able to see the weapon, or take it in unlimited time.... Seeing it.... the wand inventory thing? Wouldn't unholy bless strip that? As for not being able to take it in unlimited time... I'm not 100% sure, but doesn't that require a couple (maybe one) very rare item to accomplish? Are you seriously suggesting that an AP should have to have very specific and very rare gear to deal with a lone binder thief?

>As for not being able to see the weapon, or take it in
>unlimited time.... Seeing it.... the wand inventory thing?
>Wouldn't unholy bless strip that? As for not being able to
>take it in unlimited time... I'm not 100% sure, but doesn't
>that require a couple (maybe one) very rare item to
>accomplish?

Possibly. These are all untested theories for me, too!

For nearly every thing I can think of, there's some counter. Some of the tricks I can think of, a smart binder thief would be onto after the first time and be able to do something abouit. As long as I've got one more trick, I can stay ahead. If I don't, maybe he deserves a chance to take the weapon.

>Are you seriously suggesting that an AP should
>have to have very specific and very rare gear to deal with a
>lone binder thief?

Nope! An alternate and fairly simple (if inelegant) solution would be to leech into a non-limited weapon, stuff it in a worn container, and bash the binder thief into next week repeatedly until they decide maybe playing a druid or mongoose would be more fun.

Alternately, if you absolutely could not get a weapon out of an A-Ps hands no matter what you did as a binder thief, could you beat them, assuming the A-P was any good? These things all have to balance out somehow. I know some people think team staff is the screw you, thieves! club, but, not so much.

>>As for not being able to see the weapon, or take it in
>>unlimited time.... Seeing it.... the wand inventory thing?
>
>>Wouldn't unholy bless strip that? As for not being able to
>>take it in unlimited time... I'm not 100% sure, but doesn't
>>that require a couple (maybe one) very rare item to
>>accomplish?
>
>Possibly. These are all untested theories for me, too!

I don't know if it would strip it, but I don't know of any weapons of the top of my head that have this flag, although I'm 90% sure some do exist.

>For nearly every thing I can think of, there's some counter.
>Some of the tricks I can think of, a smart binder thief would
>be onto after the first time and be able to do something
>abouit. As long as I've got one more trick, I can stay ahead.
> If I don't, maybe he deserves a chance to take the weapon.

I personally don't consider a "chance" so much as a thing that is definetly going to happen, but that's just me. Just remember, they don't even have to fight you.

>>Are you seriously suggesting that an AP should
>>have to have very specific and very rare gear to deal with a
>>lone binder thief?
>
>Nope! An alternate and fairly simple (if inelegant) solution
>would be to leech into a non-limited weapon, stuff it in a
>worn container, and bash the binder thief into next week
>repeatedly until they decide maybe playing a druid or mongoose
>would be more fun.

I've considered this solution, and was going to try it on my last ap, but I didn't make it to unholy because, well I hate ranking, so it didn't get used. Decent idea, but how good is your non-limited unholy really going to be? avg 20?

>Alternately, if you absolutely could not get a weapon out of
>an A-Ps hands no matter what you did as a binder thief, could
>you beat them, assuming the A-P was any good? These things
>all have to balance out somehow. I know some people think
>team staff is the screw you, thieves! club, but, not so much.
>

And here's the thought experiment, because you assume the answer is no, whereas I'm going to say, yes, yes I could beat a good AP as a lone binder thief, and the lone part is highly unneccessary.

So here's me, I'm a binder thief, assume I'm human. There's you, you're an AP, assume you are also human. I don't like you, or maybe I'm just trying to keep you down, like I'm the man, or whatever, but I'm trying to kill you.

Let's assume, best possible scenario, you find me where I can't hide (since you don't have faerie fire) and you bash me down lagging me enough that I never get a chance to flee/return/jack.

It's a good win for you, but it's not the most likely scenario. Let's say you're out hunting, prepped to the gills. I come along and succeed in jacking you. Now you get gagged, bound, trussed, and I sit and wait. Your preps start to fall, at best you have aura and shield at the end (they have IIRC long enough timers), however you are still trussed and gagged. Now I jack you again, and start spelling up, haste for me slow for you. A couple maces for me, and honestly you're looking not so good. You *might* be able to flee and run away, but that's your only real option.

Notice, in the above scenario, you didn't even lose your weapon. You just got slowed and tripped to death (or very near death) by a hasted binder thief. Now imagine I have cheap shot. You are dead 100% of the time, I don't care how good you are. Only having healing gear out the ass and a unholy weapon of ungodly (read 200 charges) will save you.

Now imagine that same bad scenario, only just before I attack you, I strip and sack your unholy. You now have 0% chance of survival under any reasonable scenario. You've just gotten all your work of building this unholy destroy, before the fight even begins. Even if you have an ungodly weapon, you're still going to die (probably faster than if you didn't).

Now, maybe... maybe... if you're really careful, you could get me bashed to death every 5 times to every 1 time I successfully jack you. But you know what? I can keep coming back, but you just lost a lot more than 1/3 con.

I don't think thieves should be screwed either, but I consider this particular matchup stupid beyond belief, mostly due to sleeping disarm. (Insanely long timers on truss don't hurt.)

>Decent idea, but how good is your non-limited unholy really going to be? avg 20?

It doesn't matter. I'm not going to use it permanently. It's a way to store my charges where it's hard for you to get them, since I don't need them to kill you if things go my way. Once I've driven you off, I can leech them back into something sensible.

I don't think I'd go that route, but it's one that's available to even players without a lot of special tricks. I mean, I guess someone might rem all; drop all; get all corpse; repeat until the corpse is empty and then make sure to sac the third practice dagger in my big ol' pack sack, but I like those odds.

>Let's assume, best possible scenario, you find me where I
>can't hide (since you don't have faerie fire) and you bash me
>down lagging me enough that I never get a chance to
>flee/return/jack.

I don't have faerie fire, but I have wands and scrolls and excision, so I do.

>It's a good win for you, but it's not the most likely
>scenario.

In practice, all fights with thieves with my last A-P went that way, but I'll concede that a binder on top of their game probably wouldn't go out like that.

> Let's say you're out hunting, prepped to the gills.
> I come along and succeed in jacking you. Now you get gagged,
>bound, trussed, and I sit and wait.

There are, admittedly, a number of things I can do to make this harder. Some of the better choices may depend on race.

I can say something before I'm gagged. If I don't think I've got someone in my group or cabal who has a chance to intervene in time, I might just not let you fight me in that case, but let's say I will.

Another option might be to fight you, strangely enough, on Eastern Road or in Galadon. In ten ticks or whatever, odds are that SOMEone is going to happen by and jump on me.

As an aside, in one of my solutions, at this point while I'm being gagged and what not, I kill you. Would it work twice? My guess is no.

>Your preps start to fall,
>at best you have aura and shield at the end (they have IIRC
>long enough timers), however you are still trussed and gagged.
> Now I jack you again, and start spelling up, haste for me
>slow for you. A couple maces for me, and honestly you're
>looking not so good. You *might* be able to flee and run
>away, but that's your only real option.

You might miss that jack, but then again, you might not.

If it's just you, I still have some good options at this point.

>Notice, in the above scenario, you didn't even lose your
>weapon. You just got slowed and tripped to death (or very
>near death) by a hasted binder thief. Now imagine I have
>cheap shot. You are dead 100% of the time, I don't care how
>good you are. Only having healing gear out the ass and a
>unholy weapon of ungodly (read 200 charges) will save you.

If I imagine you have cheap shot, I'm also imagining you don't have all those binder skills.

Of course, I could be arial.

>Now imagine that same bad scenario, only just before I attack
>you, I strip and sack your unholy. You now have 0% chance of
>survival under any reasonable scenario. You've just gotten
>all your work of building this unholy destroy, before the
>fight even begins. Even if you have an ungodly weapon, you're
>still going to die (probably faster than if you didn't).

If you can get my unholy and sac it, you're going to kill me with that. I'm just generally thinking you probably won't.

>I don't think thieves should be screwed either, but I consider
>this particular matchup stupid beyond belief, mostly due to
>sleeping disarm. (Insanely long timers on truss don't hurt.)

Truss can be pretty long, but it's not forever. It won't always even be longer than iron-grip, and I do have some power to shift these odds in my favor unless you have me by total surprise.

You don't need truss.
Binding legs, hands and blindolding ( optional ) is enough.
Under these circumstances you're going to sit at least 20 ticks ( iron grip will surely fall ) and the thief may have a "cheap shot" skill as well since he does not need truss.

With an AP I would just avoid thieves as much as possible.
Needless to say they may be not alone or call friends after blackjack.
Every time you fight a binder it is a gamble.
Even if you will bash him to death 5 times, eventually you will be jacked and very likely you're going to lose your weapon or just die to a gang.

Leeching into non-limited weapon doesn't work. I considered that option before. In reality you can't leech forth-back your weapons when you have to fight a thief inbetween raids or other fights.
Using non-limited unholy as a second weapon along with other unholy weapon ( with no charges ) as a primary is bad as well, because you will not be able to use your second hand if you cast iron grip.

If I were an implementor ( like you ), I would change unholy weapon so you won't lose all your charges after a death.
Something like this:
Let us assume you want to balance AP so the best of them would have 100 charges weapons at highest.
You may scan for their pk ratios.
Let us assume they have 10:1 ratios. ( it may be other numbers )
That means they should approximately gain 1 charge per kill and lose 5 charges per death ( so at 100-10 they will have 50 charges weapon and at 200-20 it will be 100 charges )

How it could be implemented ?
For example, when an AP's weapon is sacrificed or destroed through leeching, all charges but 5 return to his body and stored as an affect.
He may put those charges into another weapon.

Something like this will allow Aps with good unholy weapons to play the game and take risks and not to delete after first death.
On the other hand, it will prevent them from having extremily good weapons because they still lose more charges per destroyed weapon than they gain per kill. The exact numbers can be tuned.

I like it.

I've always considered liches and ap's to be similar in that being a REALLY stellar lich or ap takes tons and tons of work over the lifetime of a character. The difference being that while a lich faces a one time insta-perma-death, the ap faces the fact that no matter how big their weapon gets they can still be disarmed and have all that work dissapear like that *poof*. And since they actually have to *get* the kills, instead of just finding corpses (like a lich), it's more work, and even harder to recover from. Why would I want to play an AP, buff up my weapon, be insanely cautious, prep like it's candy, etc. etc. etc. when once I die, it's all gone. I could play a lich, be more deadly, infinitely more difficult to kill, and at the sacrifice of one con per death, have the possibility of recovering. If you are an AP that used to have a 100 charge axe, but lost it, you aren't getting back there before age death, because everyone is looking for revenge, and you have to make the kills to reap the rewards. As a lich, it's teleport and gravesight time, but as an AP, you have to fight, and you have to win, and you have to do both ALOT without ever dying (this isn't strictly true, but it's as true as it is for a lich) or even getting disarmed.

My thoughts are this.

If you want to make AP unholy easy to lose - make it irrelevant. Don't balance the class to not be overpowered with 15 charges, make them balanced without it at all and cap its total class improvement.

On the other hand, if you want the class to revolve around it, having a binder thief be able to strip it without even fighting the AP is unfair.

Even liches are relatively uber badass on their own ground, so lack of uber phylacs doesn't bother me much. They're still incredibly good with no phylacs whatsoever.

A non-fire giant AP with no unholy really isn't very good in hero range. In fact, a tiger should pretty much kill them every time, and gaunts are notoriously effective AP killers. APs can be lethal, don't get me wrong, but I'd take many other classes first. If you say, "Well, with wands a chargeless AP is very good", I'm going to say most shifters/necros/invokers are better with those same wands. And I don't think anyone is arguing a chargeless, wandless AP can hold up to a comparably geared warrior either.

If you wanted to give APs more of the perks of magedom like word of recall as a spell and utility/more built in dam redux/etc, then I'd be Ok. But as I view it, they're a lethal class that relies on stacking up charges to be viable solo at hero against their enemies.

You can get lucky with sleep, etc etc etc, but at the end of the day I would rather either play a necro or a warrior and chances are I'd land more kills and avoid more deaths as both.

This whole discussion AP vs. binder is PURELY theoretical.

Dwoggurd and I both played APs (both Emperors) and I played my share of binder thieves.

Binder thief CAN potentially kill anybody given unlimited time and no outside interference.
This could be done as trivially as starving them to death.
But this is VERY unluckily to happen.

In reality you don’t have much time at all.
In five seconds after you blackjack/sleep somebody, 5 friends of this person would appear... ready to gank you to oblivion.

CF is no longer 1 vs. 1 combat.
It is usually 3-5-10 guys bashing down one guy with vultures ready to loot his berry pies and practice weapons.
That guy might be able escape or might not. But he stands no chance of winning.
Unless he is rager berserker... Which would simply require bigger gang... Because berserkers are practically unbeatable in 1vs1.
But this is totally different discussion.

AP is very versatile class but also very dependant on unholy weapon.
You work for 100 hours to build it, only to loose it in 5 seconds.
And believe me you WILL loose your unholy weapon.

Hero range AP is like mini-Lich. Everybody wants to get you. With whatever means necessary. But you have little to gain and a lot to loose.

This problem is not in player skill but in current class design.

My $0.02,

-=NNNick=-

Why not make the sacrificer of the AP's unholy take damage from the sacrificing?

I never really understood why a evil character usually takes an UNSPEAK from Defiance...which any group of determined good aligned characters can get, yet if I loot Nabburak's corpse after Aarn kills him (bad example, but that's what it is, an example) and get his 60 charge axe, why can I just sacrifice it, giving him an UNSPEAK, and I get away harmless?

I think if you took damage from sacrificing an unholy, you would have a lot more characters taking the chance that if they just take the weapon and hold onto it until they can afford the damage. Therefore, you have more opportunities to get it back, etc, etc, etc.

I know I'm a newb, but this seems like a fairly simple solution to me...

>I never really understood why a evil character usually takes
>an UNSPEAK from Defiance...which any group of determined good
>aligned characters can get,

You haven't watched as many people try to get Defiance as I have. I routinely see groups of four or five completely wiped out again and again trying and ultimately have to give up with nothing to show for it but less con.

Completely correct

But I have fought a lot of paladins wielding it. Heh.

I still think though, that AP unholies, once they reach a certain level (like 20 charges) should cause damage to the sacc'er.

Just my opinion. Thanks for the response, as well.

Edit: What's up with Lyandra's unholy stats on the PBF? A bug there?

>Edit: What's up with Lyandra's unholy stats on the PBF? A bug
>there?

I haven't looked, but I'm guessing yes. I think the way the PBF code tracks unholies is a little off but it's never been my highest priority thing to fix.

>>It's a good win for you, but it's not the most likely
>>scenario.
>
>In practice, all fights with thieves with my last A-P went
>that way, but I'll concede that a binder on top of their game
>probably wouldn't go out like that.

Correct.

>> Let's say you're out hunting, prepped to the gills.
>> I come along and succeed in jacking you. Now you get
>gagged,
>>bound, trussed, and I sit and wait.
>
>There are, admittedly, a number of things I can do to make
>this harder. Some of the better choices may depend on race.
>
>I can say something before I'm gagged. If I don't think I've
>got someone in my group or cabal who has a chance to intervene
>in time, I might just not let you fight me in that case, but
>let's say I will.

This is irritating, since any good player can fire off a reasonably descriptive CB communication about where they are before the lag from blackjack wears off and you can stuff in the gag. Moot point, since nothing I can really do about that.

>Another option might be to fight you, strangely enough, on
>Eastern Road or in Galadon. In ten ticks or whatever, odds
>are that SOMEone is going to happen by and jump on me.

Yes, there are always "helpers around," even for the most annoying/biggest badass/etc. characters out there. Even in evil vs. evil fights, I have goods waking up my victims constantly.

>As an aside, in one of my solutions, at this point while I'm
>being gagged and what not, I kill you. Would it work twice?
>My guess is no.
>
>>Your preps start to fall,
>>at best you have aura and shield at the end (they have IIRC
>>long enough timers), however you are still trussed and
>gagged.
>> Now I jack you again, and start spelling up, haste for me
>>slow for you. A couple maces for me, and honestly you're
>>looking not so good. You *might* be able to flee and run
>>away, but that's your only real option.
>
>You might miss that jack, but then again, you might not.

If I land the blackjack, it's on to phase II for me. If I miss, then I need to trust my luck that I can flee before your bindings come undone. If that is the case, then I wait the 4 ticks and try again.

>If it's just you, I still have some good options at this
>point.
>
>>Notice, in the above scenario, you didn't even lose your
>>weapon. You just got slowed and tripped to death (or very
>>near death) by a hasted binder thief. Now imagine I have
>>cheap shot. You are dead 100% of the time, I don't care how
>>good you are. Only having healing gear out the ass and a
>>unholy weapon of ungodly (read 200 charges) will save you.
>
>If I imagine you have cheap shot, I'm also imagining you don't
>have all those binder skills.

As of mid-2004, you can get tie and cheapshot, but not truss. Qaledus mentioned that he and team-thief might be adjusting and *posting* the thief points table, which would be nice to see.

>Of course, I could be arial.

That does present a problem for a binder thief. Not much to do in combat then besides kick.

>>Now imagine that same bad scenario, only just before I
>attack
>>you, I strip and sack your unholy. You now have 0% chance
>of
>>survival under any reasonable scenario. You've just gotten
>>all your work of building this unholy destroy, before the
>>fight even begins. Even if you have an ungodly weapon,
>you're
>>still going to die (probably faster than if you didn't).
>
>If you can get my unholy and sac it, you're going to kill me
>with that. I'm just generally thinking you probably won't.

Bindhands will drop your secondary wield, which helps. Thieves are also able to fumble, poison, weaken and plague. Sleeping disarm has a reasonable rate of success.

>>I don't think thieves should be screwed either, but I
>consider
>>this particular matchup stupid beyond belief, mostly due to
>>sleeping disarm. (Insanely long timers on truss don't
>hurt.)
>
>Truss can be pretty long, but it's not forever. It won't
>always even be longer than iron-grip, and I do have some power
>to shift these odds in my favor unless you have me by total
>surprise.

I don't know the duration on iron grip, but truss lasts for more than half a day.


Example:

***He was wandering about the sewers. I hadn't regeared yet, having recently paid a visit to the Hamsah jail. ***

#Ok. $target is now set to {emon}.
aaPeople near you:
(PK) Emonnev A Large Sewer Junction
(PK) Lesuoto Entrance to the Sewers

<515hp 489m 398mv 17380tnl 4 AM>

Emonnev has arrived.
You hit Emonnev in the back of the head with a blackjack.

<515hp 489m 398mv 17380tnl 4 AM> !
gag emon
He is already dazed from a blow to the skull.

<515hp 489m 398mv 17380tnl 4 AM> You step out of the shadows.
The shoddily done gag falls out of Emonnev's mouth.

***Never a good thing. Not only can he still cast, he can CB, which is even worse.***

<515hp 489m 398mv 17380tnl 4 AM> l emo
bh emoUnlike most felar, this felar is barren of any hair whatsoever. All of
has been either shaved off or has fallen off. Replacing it are long,
strings of ancient runes both magical and devilish in nature. They curl
around his whole body like wisps of arcane mist, imprinted with dark
magicks. Although most are unrecognizeble, some you notice are marks for
binding, containment, and banishment. No part of his body is left unmarred
by these strange markings. The stark pink color of the inside of his perked
ears gives contrast to the rest of the body. On the marred, light grey skin
the ashen and black runes are stark contrast to his smoldering, olive eyes.
Flashes of ivory teeth, stained with crimson, can be seen when this felar
turns toward you. The lower fangs so long, they jet out from underneath
obsidian black lips. It is like this felar is a walking pentagram of both
summoning and banishment, protection and denial, conjuration and dismissal.
Emonnev, a male felar, is in perfect health.

Emonnev is using:
a wooden ring with a black stone
a wooden ring with a black stone
the amulet of Moudrilar
the amulet of Moudrilar
a blood-stained tunic
a barbed tail ring
(Glowing) a black mitre
a mask fashioned from jade
midnight dragon leggings
rear-claw extensions
a pair of spiked gauntlets
midnight dragon armguards
(Glowing) the Cloak of the Deep
the girdle of endless space
a malachite bracelet
an adamantite bracer
a gem-tipped spear

You peek at the inventory:
SHIELD
( 2) a green potion
a small golden pill
(Glowing) a feather of levitation
a practice shield
a metal canteen insulated in a wolf's pelt
an eog sabre with a jagged edge
(Humming) a blue-tinted crystal
( 2) a bandit's robe
a barbed whip flecked with crimson

<515hp 489m 398mv 17380tnl 4 AM>
You grab Emonnev's paws and begin to nimbly wrap rope around his wrists.

<515hp 489m 398mv 17380tnl 4 AM>
You hear the faint dripping of water somewhere in the distance.

<515hp 489m 398mv 17380tnl 4 AM>
You continue to methodically tie up Emonnev's paws.

<515hp 489m 398mv 17380tnl 5 AM> bindl emo
A distant squeak echos throughout the sewers.

<515hp 489m 398mv 17380tnl 5 AM>
You cinch the bindings and pull the knot tightly.

<515hp 489m 398mv 17380tnl 5 AM>


Autosaving.
You feel less aware of your surroundings.

<515hp 489m 434mv 17380tnl 5 AM> You grab Emonnev's legs and begin to nimbly wrap rope around his ankles.

<515hp 489m 434mv 17380tnl 5 AM> det
You feel something in the sewage brush past your ankle.

<515hp 489m 434mv 17380tnl 5 AM>
You continue to methodically tie up Emonnev's legs.

<515hp 489m 434mv 17380tnl 5 AM>
You cinch the bindings and pull the knot tightly.

<515hp 489m 434mv 17380tnl 5 AM>
Your awareness improves.

<515hp 484m 434mv 17380tnl 5 AM> bf emo
You wrap a blindfold around Emonnev's eyes.

<515hp 484m 434mv 17380tnl 5 AM> tie emo
You grab Emonnev's paws and begin to nimbly wrap rope around his wrists.

<515hp 484m 434mv 17380tnl 5 AM> steal sabre
You continue to methodically tie up Emonnev's paws.

<515hp 484m 434mv 17380tnl 5 AM> emo

You cinch the bindings and pull the knot tightly.
Oops.
Emonnev yells 'Keep your hands out of there, Someone!'

<515hp 484m 434mv 17380tnl 6 AM> !
truss emYou steal an eog sabre with a jagged edge from Emonnev.

<515hp 484m 434mv 17380tnl 6 AM> o
wear You grab Emonnev's paws and begin to nimbly wrap rope around his wrists.

<515hp 489m 470mv 17380tnl 6 AM> sabre

You continue to methodically truss up Emonnev's paws.

<515hp 489m 470mv 17380tnl 6 AM>
You cinch the bindings and pull the knot tightly.
You stop using a small bloody mace.
You wield an eog sabre with a jagged edge.
An eog sabre with a jagged edge feels like a part of you!

***Trussed. No more casting.***

<515hp 489m 470mv 17380tnl 6 AM> eq
You are using:
(Glowing) a silvery ring
a pale white skull ring
a sandy-brown desert cloak
a fine-linked chainmail vest
some leggings from the snow worm
a pair of iron taloned boots
a badge of blood-red feathers
the girdle of endless space
a charred leather bracer
an eog sabre with a jagged edge
a blackjack

<515hp 489m 470mv 17380tnl 6 AM> wear razor
You stop using a blackjack.
You dual wield a straight razor.
A straight razor feels like a part of you!

<515hp 489m 470mv 17380tnl 6 AM> l emo
Unlike most felar, this felar is barren of any hair whatsoever. All of
has been either shaved off or has fallen off. Replacing it are long,
strings of ancient runes both magical and devilish in nature. They curl
around his whole body like wisps of arcane mist, imprinted with dark
magicks. Although most are unrecognizeble, some you notice are marks for
binding, containment, and banishment. No part of his body is left unmarred
by these strange markings. The stark pink color of the inside of his perked
ears gives contrast to the rest of the body. On the marred, light grey skin
the ashen and black runes are stark contrast to his smoldering, olive eyes.
Flashes of ivory teeth, stained with crimson, can be seen when this felar
turns toward you. The lower fangs so long, they jet out from underneath
obsidian black lips. It is like this felar is a walking pentagram of both
summoning and banishment, protection and denial, conjuration and dismissal.
Emonnev, a male felar, is in perfect health.
Emonnev is blindfolded.

Emonnev is using:
a wooden ring with a black stone
a wooden ring with a black stone
the amulet of Moudrilar
the amulet of Moudrilar
a blood-stained tunic
a barbed tail ring
(Glowing) a black mitre
a mask fashioned from jade
midnight dragon leggings
rear-claw extensions
a pair of spiked gauntlets
midnight dragon armguards
(Glowing) the Cloak of the Deep
the girdle of endless space
a malachite bracelet
an adamantite bracer
a gem-tipped spear

You peek at the inventory:
SHIELD
( 2) a green potion
a small golden pill
(Glowing) a feather of levitation
a practice shield
a metal canteen insulated in a wolf's pelt
(Humming) a blue-tinted crystal
( 2) a bandit's robe
a barbed whip flecked with crimson

<515hp 489m 470mv 17380tnl 6 AM> steal
You hear the faint dripping of water somewhere in the distance.

<515hp 489m 470mv 17380tnl 6 AM> pill emo
Oops.
Emonnev yells 'Someone couldn't rob his way out of a paper bag!'

<515hp 489m 470mv 17380tnl 6 AM> !
You steal a small golden pill from Emonnev.
You learn from your mistakes, and your steal ability improves.

<515hp 489m 470mv 17370tnl 6 AM> drop pill
sa
You feel something in the sewage brush past your ankle.

<515hp 489m 470mv 17370tnl 6 AM> c 1You drop a small golden pill.

<515hp 489m 470mv 17370tnl 6 AM> .
The gods give you 0 copper coins for your sacrifice of a small golden pill.

<515hp 489m 470mv 17370tnl 6 AM> steal green emo
You steal a green potion from Emonnev.

<515hp 489m 470mv 17370tnl 7 AM> !
You steal a green potion from Emonnev.

<515hp 489m 470mv 17370tnl 7 AM> steal rod e
Emonnev wakes and stands up.

<515hp l emo
Emonnev sits down and rests.

<515hp 489m 506mv 17370tnl 7 AM>
Unlike most felar, this felar is barren of any hair whatsoever. All of
has been either shaved off or has fallen off. Replacing it are long,
strings of ancient runes both magical and devilish in nature. They curl
around his whole body like wisps of arcane mist, imprinted with dark
magicks. Although most are unrecognizeble, some you notice are marks for
binding, containment, and banishment. No part of his body is left unmarred
by these strange markings. The stark pink color of the inside of his perked
ears gives contrast to the rest of the body. On the marred, light grey skin
the ashen and black runes are stark contrast to his smoldering, olive eyes.
Flashes of ivory teeth, stained with crimson, can be seen when this felar
turns toward you. The lower fangs so long, they jet out from underneath
obsidian black lips. It is like this felar is a walking pentagram of both
summoning and banishment, protection and denial, conjuration and dismissal.
Emonnev, a male felar, is in perfect health.
Emonnev is blindfolded.

Emonnev is using:
a wooden ring with a black stone
a wooden ring with a black stone
the amulet of Moudrilar
the amulet of Moudrilar
a blood-stained tunic
a barbed tail ring
(Glowing) a black mitre
a mask fashioned from jade
midnight dragon leggings
rear-claw extensions
a pair of spiked gauntlets
midnight dragon armguards
(Glowing) the Cloak of the Deep
the girdle of endless space
a malachite bracelet
an adamantite bracer
a gem-tipped spear

You peek at the inventory:
SHIELD
(Glowing) a feather of levitation
a practice shield
a metal canteen insulated in a wolf's pelt
(Humming) a blue-tinted crystal
( 2) a bandit's robe
a barbed whip flecked with crimson

<515hp 489m 506mv 17370tnl 7 AM> steal rod emo
Oops.
Emonnev yells 'Keep your hands out of there, someone!'

<515hp 489m 506mv 17370tnl 7 AM> !

You feel something in the sewage brush past your ankle.

<515hp 489m 506mv 17370tnl 7 AM> Oops.
Emonnev yells 'Someone couldn't rob his way out of a paper bag!'

<515hp 489m 506mv 17370tnl 7 AM> !

Kothak has arrived.

<515hp 489m 506mv 17370tnl 7 AM> whoi koOops.
Emonnev yells 'Someone couldn't rob his way out of a paper bag!'

<515hp 489m 506mv 17370tnl 7 AM>
<25 Min War> Kothak the Tactician

<515hp 489m 506mv 17370tnl 8 AM> steal SHIELD emo
You steal SHIELD from Emonnev.

<515hp 489m 542mv 17370tnl 8
Kothak looks at you.

<515hp 489m 542mv 17370tnl 8 AM> l
Entrance to the Sewers
You find yourself standing in a spacious quadruple sewer junction beneath
the city of Galadon. Gray stones have been fitted together with a coarse
mortar to create large conduits of water and refuse that extend in the four
cardinal directions. The walls are coated with a slick layer of filth and
muck, and a disgusting soup of raw sewage spreads ankle-deep on the floor.
On one of the walls, some crude graffiti has been scratched into the stone.
Emerging from the refuse is a rusty, dilapidated iron ladder that extends
up to broad sewer access point above. The bustle and light of the city can
be heard and seen through the opening, but in all other directions lie a
thick, enveloping darkness.


A dilapidated iron ladder is here, its bent rungs wrapped in filthy leather.

Kothak is here.
(Bound) (Trussed) (Invis) Emonnev is resting here.

<515hp 489m 542mv 17370tnl 8 AM> s
A Large Sewer Junction


(Glowing) A large brown feather of some great bird floats through the air.
A large, earthenware jug is here, the bottom half covered with woven mesh.
A makeshift shield from the hide of a white worm rests here.
( 5) Some seaweed floats around following the oceans currents.
A blue-tinted leaf lies here forgotten.
( 2) A metal canteen lies here on the ground.

<515hp 489m 541mv 17370tnl 8 AM> pp
You stop using a straight razor.
You dual wield a blackjack.
You feel quite confident with a blackjack.

<515hp 489m 541mv 17370tnl 8 AM> sn
hideYou attempt to move silently.

<515hp 489m 541mv 17370tnl 8 AM>
nYou attempt to hide.

<515hp 489m 541mv 17370tnl 8 AM>
Entrance to the Sewers


A dilapidated iron ladder is here, its bent rungs wrapped in filthy leather.

Kothak is here.
(Bound) (Trussed) (Invis) Emonnev is resting here.

<515hp 489m 540mv 17370tnl 8 AM> sn
You attempt to move silently.

<515hp 489m 540mv 17370tnl 8 AM> hide
You attempt to hide.

<515hp 489m 540mv 17370tnl 8 AM> l emo
Unlike most felar, this felar is barren of any hair whatsoever. All of
has been either shaved off or has fallen off. Replacing it are long,
strings of ancient runes both magical and devilish in nature. They curl
around his whole body like wisps of arcane mist, imprinted with dark
magicks. Although most are unrecognizeble, some you notice are marks for
binding, containment, and banishment. No part of his body is left unmarred
by these strange markings. The stark pink color of the inside of his perked
ears gives contrast to the rest of the body. On the marred, light grey skin
the ashen and black runes are stark contrast to his smoldering, olive eyes.
Flashes of ivory teeth, stained with crimson, can be seen when this felar
turns toward you. The lower fangs so long, they jet out from underneath
obsidian black lips. It is like this felar is a walking pentagram of both
summoning and banishment, protection and denial, conjuration and dismissal.
Emonnev, a male felar, is in perfect health.
Emonnev is blindfolded.

Emonnev is using:
a wooden ring with a black stone
a wooden ring with a black stone
the amulet of Moudrilar
the amulet of Moudrilar
a blood-stained tunic
a barbed tail ring
(Glowing) a black mitre
a mask fashioned from jade
midnight dragon leggings
rear-claw extensions
a pair of spiked gauntlets
midnight dragon armguards
(Glowing) the Cloak of the Deep
the girdle of endless space
a malachite bracelet
an adamantite bracer
a gem-tipped spear

You peek at the inventory:
(Glowing) a feather of levitation
a practice shield
a metal canteen insulated in a wolf's pelt
(Humming) a blue-tinted crystal
( 2) a bandit's robe
a barbed whip flecked with crimson

<515hp 489m 540mv 17370tnl 8 AM> aa
He is already dazed from a blow to the skull.

<515hp 489m 540mv 17370tnl 8 AM> whe
People near you:
Kothak Entrance to the Sewers
(PK) Emonnev Entrance to the Sewers
(PK) Lesuoto Entrance to the Sewers

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 9 AM> l
Entrance to the Sewers
You find yourself standing in a spacious quadruple sewer junction beneath
the city of Galadon. Gray stones have been fitted together with a coarse
mortar to create large conduits of water and refuse that extend in the four
cardinal directions. The walls are coated with a slick layer of filth and
muck, and a disgusting soup of raw sewage spreads ankle-deep on the floor.
On one of the walls, some crude graffiti has been scratched into the stone.
Emerging from the refuse is a rusty, dilapidated iron ladder that extends
up to broad sewer access point above. The bustle and light of the city can
be heard and seen through the opening, but in all other directions lie a
thick, enveloping darkness.


A dilapidated iron ladder is here, its bent rungs wrapped in filthy leather.

Kothak is here.
(Bound) (Trussed) (Invis) Emonnev is resting here.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 9 AM> aa
He is already dazed from a blow to the skull.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 9 AM>

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 9 AM> tap
You tap your foot impatiently.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 9 AM> l
Entrance to the Sewers
You find yourself standing in a spacious quadruple sewer junction beneath
the city of Galadon. Gray stones have been fitted together with a coarse
mortar to create large conduits of water and refuse that extend in the four
cardinal directions. The walls are coated with a slick layer of filth and
muck, and a disgusting soup of raw sewage spreads ankle-deep on the floor.
On one of the walls, some crude graffiti has been scratched into the stone.
Emerging from the refuse is a rusty, dilapidated iron ladder that extends
up to broad sewer access point above. The bustle and light of the city can
be heard and seen through the opening, but in all other directions lie a
thick, enveloping darkness.


A dilapidated iron ladder is here, its bent rungs wrapped in filthy leather.

Kothak is here.
(Bound) (Trussed) (Invis) Emonnev is resting here.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 9 AM> aa
He is already dazed from a blow to the skull.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 9 AM> l emo
Unlike most felar, this felar is barren of any hair whatsoever. All of
has been either shaved off or has fallen off. Replacing it are long,
strings of ancient runes both magical and devilish in nature. They curl
around his whole body like wisps of arcane mist, imprinted with dark
magicks. Although most are unrecognizeble, some you notice are marks for
binding, containment, and banishment. No part of his body is left unmarred
by these strange markings. The stark pink color of the inside of his perked
ears gives contrast to the rest of the body. On the marred, light grey skin
the ashen and black runes are stark contrast to his smoldering, olive eyes.
Flashes of ivory teeth, stained with crimson, can be seen when this felar
turns toward you. The lower fangs so long, they jet out from underneath
obsidian black lips. It is like this felar is a walking pentagram of both
summoning and banishment, protection and denial, conjuration and dismissal.
Emonnev, a male felar, is in perfect health.
Emonnev is blindfolded.

Emonnev is using:
a wooden ring with a black stone
a wooden ring with a black stone
the amulet of Moudrilar
the amulet of Moudrilar
a blood-stained tunic
a barbed tail ring
(Glowing) a black mitre
a mask fashioned from jade
midnight dragon leggings
rear-claw extensions
a pair of spiked gauntlets
midnight dragon armguards
(Glowing) the Cloak of the Deep
the girdle of endless space
a malachite bracelet
an adamantite bracer
a gem-tipped spear

You peek at the inventory:
(Glowing) a feather of levitation
a practice shield
a metal canteen insulated in a wolf's pelt
(Humming) a blue-tinted crystal
( 2) a bandit's robe
a barbed whip flecked with crimson

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 9 AM>
l

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 9 AM> Entrance to the Sewers
You find yourself standing in a spacious quadruple sewer junction beneath
the city of Galadon. Gray stones have been fitted together with a coarse
mortar to create large conduits of water and refuse that extend in the four
cardinal directions. The walls are coated with a slick layer of filth and
muck, and a disgusting soup of raw sewage spreads ankle-deep on the floor.
On one of the walls, some crude graffiti has been scratched into the stone.
Emerging from the refuse is a rusty, dilapidated iron ladder that extends
up to broad sewer access point above. The bustle and light of the city can
be heard and seen through the opening, but in all other directions lie a
thick, enveloping darkness.


A dilapidated iron ladder is here, its bent rungs wrapped in filthy leather.

Kothak is here.
(Bound) (Trussed) (Invis) Emonnev is resting here.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 9 AM> aa
He is already dazed from a blow to the skull.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 9 AM> steal feather emo
You steal a feather of levitation from Emonnev.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 9 AM> drop feather
sac
You feel something in the sewage brush past your ankle.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 9 AM> 1.
h
You step out of the shadows.
You drop a feather of levitation.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM> The gods give you 0 copper coins for your sacrifice of a feather of levitation.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM> You attempt to hide.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM> h
You attempt to hide.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM> whe
snPeople near you:
Kothak Entrance to the Sewers
(PK) Emonnev Entrance to the Sewers
(PK) Lesuoto Entrance to the Sewers

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM>
hiYou attempt to move silently.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM> de
1You attempt to hide.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM>
#Ok. $target is now set to {emon}.

A distant squeak echos throughout the sewers.
Emonnev's thirst hits him.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM> aa
You hit Emonnev in the back of the head with a blackjack.
You step out of the shadows.
You trample around loudly again.
Your blackjack wounds Emonnev.
Emonnev yells 'Help! I've been blackjacked by someone!'
You parry Emonnev's pierce.
You dodge Emonnev's claw.
Your slash EVISCERATES Emonnev!
Emonnev parries your crush.
Emonnev parries your slash.
Emonnev has some small but disgusting cuts.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM> wear razor

You parry Emonnev's pierce.
Emonnev parries your slash.
Emonnev parries your crush.
Emonnev parries your crush.
Emonnev has some small but disgusting cuts.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM>
Emonnev's pierce MASSACRES you!
Emonnev's claw MASSACRES you!
Emonnev's pierce MASSACRES you!
You dodge Emonnev's claw.
Emonnev parries your slash.
Emonnev parries your crush.
Emonnev parries your slash.
Emonnev has some small but disgusting cuts.

***Ouch!***

<295hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM> You stop using a blackjack.
You dual wield a straight razor.
A straight razor feels like a part of you!
Emonnev has some small but disgusting cuts.

<295hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM> dis
You fail to disarm Emonnev.
Emonnev has some small but disgusting cuts.

<295hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM>
Kothak looks at you.
Emonnev has some small but disgusting cuts.

<295hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM>
You dodge Emonnev's pierce.
You dodge Emonnev's claw.
Emonnev's pierce MASSACRES you!
Emonnev's pierce DISMEMBERS you!
Emonnev parries your slash.
Your slash DISMEMBERS Emonnev!
Emonnev has some small but disgusting cuts.

<169hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM> fle

You dodge Emonnev's pierce.
You dodge Emonnev's claw.
Emonnev's pierce misses you.
The fighting knocks the blindfold from Emonnev's eyes.
Your slash DISMEMBERS Emonnev!
Your slash EVISCERATES Emonnev!
Emonnev is covered with bleeding wounds.

<169hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 10 AM> Large Intersection


You flee from combat!
You fled up.

<169hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 10 AM> h
You attempt to hide.

<169hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 10 AM> sn
You attempt to move silently.

<169hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 10 AM> hide
You attempt to hide.

<169hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 10 AM> i
You are carrying:
SHIELD
( 2) a green potion
a metal canteen insulated in a wolf's pelt
(Glowing) (Humming) a mace of annihilation
a small bloody mace
SHIELD
a blackjack

<169hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 10 AM> e
River Road



<169hp 489m 547mv 17370tnl 10 AM> n
Temple Square


A fountain is here, gushing blood.
A cityguard is strolling through here, keeping the peace.

<169hp 489m 545mv 17370tnl 10 AM> e
The Dark Temple


A man sits here begging for any change you might have.

<169hp 489m 544mv 17370tnl 10 AM> n
By the Temple Altar


A pit for sacrifices is in front of the altar.
(White Aura) The healer is here, administering healing as well as death.

<169hp 489m 543mv 17370tnl 10 AM> heal critical
You pay the healer 882 copper coins.
The healer closes his eyes for a moment and nods at you.
You feel better!

<244hp 489m 543mv 17370tnl 10 AM> !
You pay the healer 882 copper coins.
The healer closes his eyes for a moment and nods at you.
You feel better!

<311hp 489m 543mv 17370tnl 11 AM> !
You pay the healer 882 copper coins.
The healer closes his eyes for a moment and nods at you.
You feel better!

<387hp 489m 543mv 17370tnl 11 AM> !
You pay the healer 882 copper coins.
The healer closes his eyes for a moment and nods at you.
You feel better!

<469hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 11 AM> whe
sn
hide
People near you:
(PK) Lesuoto By the Temple Altar

<469hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 11 AM> You attempt to move silently.

<469hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 11 AM> You attempt to hide.

<469hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 11 AM> pp
h
You step out of the shadows.
You stop using a straight razor.
You dual wield a blackjack.
You feel quite confident with a blackjack.

<469hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 11 AM> sYou attempt to hide.

<469hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 11 AM>
The Dark Temple


A man sits here begging for any change you might have.

<469hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 11 AM> w
Temple Square


A fountain is here, gushing blood.

<469hp 489m 548mv 17370tnl 11 AM> sn
You attempt to move silently.

<469hp 489m 548mv 17370tnl 11 AM> hide
sYou attempt to hide.

<469hp 489m 548mv 17370tnl 11 AM>
River Road


A cityguard is strolling through here, keeping the peace.

<469hp 489m 546mv 17370tnl 11 AM> w
Large Intersection



<469hp 489m 544mv 17370tnl 11 AM> sn
You attempt to move silently.

<469hp 489m 544mv 17370tnl 11 AM> hide
dYou attempt to hide.

<469hp 489m 544mv 17370tnl 11 AM>
Entrance to the Sewers


A dilapidated iron ladder is here, its bent rungs wrapped in filthy leather.

Kothak is here.
(Trussed) (Invis) Emonnev is here.

***Thanks, Nepenthe, for helping out us solo folks.***

<469hp 489m 543mv 17370tnl 11 AM> l emo
Unlike most felar, this felar is barren of any hair whatsoever. All of
has been either shaved off or has fallen off. Replacing it are long,
strings of ancient runes both magical and devilish in nature. They curl
around his whole body like wisps of arcane mist, imprinted with dark
magicks. Although most are unrecognizeble, some you notice are marks for
binding, containment, and banishment. No part of his body is left unmarred
by these strange markings. The stark pink color of the inside of his perked
ears gives contrast to the rest of the body. On the marred, light grey skin
the ashen and black runes are stark contrast to his smoldering, olive eyes.
Flashes of ivory teeth, stained with crimson, can be seen when this felar
turns toward you. The lower fangs so long, they jet out from underneath
obsidian black lips. It is like this felar is a walking pentagram of both
summoning and banishment, protection and denial, conjuration and dismissal.
Emonnev, a male felar, is covered with bleeding wounds.

Emonnev is using:
a wooden ring with a black stone
a wooden ring with a black stone
the amulet of Moudrilar
the amulet of Moudrilar
a blood-stained tunic
a barbed tail ring
(Glowing) a black mitre
a mask fashioned from jade
midnight dragon leggings
rear-claw extensions
a pair of spiked gauntlets
midnight dragon armguards
(Glowing) the Cloak of the Deep
the girdle of endless space
a malachite bracelet
an adamantite bracer
a gem-tipped spear

You peek at the inventory:
a practice shield
a metal canteen insulated in a wolf's pelt
(Humming) a blue-tinted crystal
( 2) a bandit's robe
a barbed whip flecked with crimson
You feel something in the sewage brush past your ankle.

<469hp 489m 543mv 17370tnl 11 AM> sn
You attempt to move silently.

<469hp 489m 543mv 17370tnl 11 AM> hide
You attempt to hide.

<469hp 489m 543mv 17370tnl 11 AM>
You hear the faint dripping of water somewhere in the distance.

<469hp 489m 543mv 17370tnl 11 AM>
Emonnev's thirst hits him.

<485hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 12 PM>
You feel something in the sewage brush past your ankle.

<485hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 12 PM> aa
He is already dazed from a blow to the skull.

<485hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 12 PM> sn
You attempt to move silently.

<485hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 12 PM> hide
You attempt to hide.

<485hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 12 PM>
You hear the faint dripping of water somewhere in the distance.

<485hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 12 PM> u
Large Intersection



<485hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 12 PM> whe
People near you:
(PK) Lesuoto Large Intersection

<485hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 12 PM> sn
You attempt to move silently.

<485hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 12 PM> hide
af
You attempt to hide.

<485hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 12 PM> You are affected by:
Skill: 'sneak' for 36 hours.
Skill: 'detect hidden' for 29 hours.
Spell: 'detect invis' for 16 hours.
Physical effect: 'flight' for -1 hours.

<485hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 12 PM> d
Entrance to the Sewers


A dilapidated iron ladder is here, its bent rungs wrapped in filthy leather.

Kothak is here.
(Trussed) (Invis) Emonnev is here.

<485hp 489m 548mv 17370tnl 12 PM> whe
People near you:
Kothak Entrance to the Sewers
(PK) Emonnev Entrance to the Sewers
(PK) Lesuoto Entrance to the Sewers

<485hp 489m 548mv 17370tnl 12 PM>
Emonnev gets an opal wand from the girdle of endless space.

<485hp 489m 548mv 17370tnl 12 PM> l emo
Unlike most felar, this felar is barren of any hair whatsoever. All of
has been either shaved off or has fallen off. Replacing it are long,
strings of ancient runes both magical and devilish in nature. They curl
around his whole body like wisps of arcane mist, imprinted with dark
magicks. Although most are unrecognizeble, some you notice are marks for
binding, containment, and banishment. No part of his body is left unmarred
by these strange markings. The stark pink color of the inside of his perked
ears gives contrast to the rest of the body. On the marred, light grey skin
the ashen and black runes are stark contrast to his smoldering, olive eyes.
Flashes of ivory teeth, stained with crimson, can be seen when this felar
turns toward you. The lower fangs so long, they jet out from underneath
obsidian black lips. It is like this felar is a walking pentagram of both
summoning and banishment, protection and denial, conjuration and dismissal.
Emonnev, a male felar, is covered with bleeding wounds.

Emonnev is using:
a wooden ring with a black stone
a wooden ring with a black stone
the amulet of Moudrilar
the amulet of Moudrilar
a blood-stained tunic
a barbed tail ring
(Glowing) a black mitre
a mask fashioned from jade
midnight dragon leggings
rear-claw extensions
a pair of spiked gauntlets
midnight dragon armguards
(Glowing) the Cloak of the Deep
the girdle of endless space
a malachite bracelet
an adamantite bracer
a gem-tipped spear

You peek at the inventory:
an opal wand
a practice shield
a metal canteen insulated in a wolf's pelt
(Humming) a blue-tinted crystal
( 2) a bandit's robe
a barbed whip flecked with crimson

<485hp 489m 548mv 17370tnl 12 PM> l
Entrance to the Sewers
You find yourself standing in a spacious quadruple sewer junction beneath
the city of Galadon. Gray stones have been fitted together with a coarse
mortar to create large conduits of water and refuse that extend in the four
cardinal directions. The walls are coated with a slick layer of filth and
muck, and a disgusting soup of raw sewage spreads ankle-deep on the floor.
On one of the walls, some crude graffiti has been scratched into the stone.
Emerging from the refuse is a rusty, dilapidated iron ladder that extends
up to broad sewer access point above. The bustle and light of the city can
be heard and seen through the opening, but in all other directions lie a
thick, enveloping darkness.


A dilapidated iron ladder is here, its bent rungs wrapped in filthy leather.

Kothak is here.
(Trussed) (Invis) Emonnev is here.

<485hp 489m 548mv 17370tnl 12 PM> u
A distant squeak echos throughout the sewers.

<485hp 489m 548mv 17370tnl 12 Paf
You are affected by:
Skill: 'sneak' for 36 hours.
Skill: 'detect hidden' for 29 hours.
Spell: 'detect invis' for 16 hours.
Physical effect: 'flight' for -1 hours.

<485hp 489m 548mv 17370tnl 12 PM> l emo
Unlike most felar, this felar is barren of any hair whatsoever. All of
has been either shaved off or has fallen off. Replacing it are long,
strings of ancient runes both magical and devilish in nature. They curl
around his whole body like wisps of arcane mist, imprinted with dark
magicks. Although most are unrecognizeble, some you notice are marks for
binding, containment, and banishment. No part of his body is left unmarred
by these strange markings. The stark pink color of the inside of his perked
ears gives contrast to the rest of the body. On the marred, light grey skin
the ashen and black runes are stark contrast to his smoldering, olive eyes.
Flashes of ivory teeth, stained with crimson, can be seen when this felar
turns toward you. The lower fangs so long, they jet out from underneath
obsidian black lips. It is like this felar is a walking pentagram of both
summoning and banishment, protection and denial, conjuration and dismissal.
Emonnev, a male felar, is covered with bleeding wounds.

Emonnev is using:
a wooden ring with a black stone
a wooden ring with a black stone
the amulet of Moudrilar
the amulet of Moudrilar
a blood-stained tunic
a barbed tail ring
(Glowing) a black mitre
a mask fashioned from jade
midnight dragon leggings
rear-claw extensions
a pair of spiked gauntlets
midnight dragon armguards
(Glowing) the Cloak of the Deep
the girdle of endless space
a malachite bracelet
an adamantite bracer
a gem-tipped spear

You peek at the inventory:
an opal wand
a practice shield
a metal canteen insulated in a wolf's pelt
(Humming) a blue-tinted crystal
( 2) a bandit's robe
a barbed whip flecked with crimson

<485hp 489m 548mv 17370tnl 12 PM> i
Kothak leaves up.

<485hp 489m 548mv 17370tnl 1 PM>
You are carrying:
SHIELD
( 2) a green potion
a metal canteen insulated in a wolf's pelt
(Glowing) (Humming) a mace of annihilation
a small bloody mace
SHIELD
a straight razor

<485hp 489m 548mv 17370tnl 1 PM>
Emonnev's thirst hits him.

<494hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 1 PM>
Kothak has arrived.
You hear the faint dripping of water somewhere in the distance.

<494hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 1 PM> aa
He is already dazed from a blow to the skull.

<494hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 1 PM> u
Large Intersection



<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> tell koth I would not untie him
h
You step out of the shadows.
You tell Kothak 'I would not untie him'

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> wYou attempt to hide.

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> he
sPeople near you:
(PK) Lesuoto Large Intersection

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> n
You attempt to move silently.

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> hide
af
r
You attempt to hide.

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> You are affected by:
Skill: 'sneak' for 36 hours.
Skill: 'detect hidden' for 28 hours.
Spell: 'detect invis' for 15 hours.
Physical effect: 'flight' for -1 hours.

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> You rest.

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> sn
Better stand up first.

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> hide
wheYou attempt to hide.

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM>
People near you:
(PK) Lesuoto Large Intersection

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> sl
You go to sleep.

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM>

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM>

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM>

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> af
You are affected by:
Skill: 'sneak' for 36 hours.
Skill: 'detect hidden' for 28 hours.
Spell: 'detect invis' for 15 hours.
Physical effect: 'flight' for -1 hours.

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> sca d
In your dreams, or what?

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> wa
sca You wake and stand up.

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> d
You scan down.
***** Range 1 *****
Kothak is here.
(Trussed) (Invis) Emonnev is resting here.


<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM> sl
You go to sleep.

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM>

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM>

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM>

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM>


<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM>
<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM>

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM>

<494hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 1 PM>

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 2 PM>
wa
d
<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 2 PM>
You wake and stand up.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 2 PM> Entrance to the Sewers


A dilapidated iron ladder is here, its bent rungs wrapped in filthy leather.

Kothak is here.
(Trussed) (Invis) Emonnev is resting here.

<515hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 2 PM> 1
#Ok. $target is now set to {emon}.
aa
He is already dazed from a blow to the skull.

<515hp 489m 549mv 17370tnl 2 PM>
Emonnev's thirst hits him.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 2 PM> aa

Emonnev stands up.
You hit Emonnev in the back of the head with a blackjack.

***Heh heh heh***

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 2 PM> l emo
gag emo
Unlike most felar, this felar is barren of any hair whatsoever. All of
has been either shaved off or has fallen off. Replacing it are long,
strings of ancient runes both magical and devilish in nature. They curl
around his whole body like wisps of arcane mist, imprinted with dark
magicks. Although most are unrecognizeble, some you notice are marks for
binding, containment, and banishment. No part of his body is left unmarred
by these strange markings. The stark pink color of the inside of his perked
ears gives contrast to the rest of the body. On the marred, light grey skin
the ashen and black runes are stark contrast to his smoldering, olive eyes.
Flashes of ivory teeth, stained with crimson, can be seen when this felar
turns toward you. The lower fangs so long, they jet out from underneath
obsidian black lips. It is like this felar is a walking pentagram of both
summoning and banishment, protection and denial, conjuration and dismissal.
Emonnev, a male felar, has a few scratches.

Emonnev is using:
a wooden ring with a black stone
a wooden ring with a black stone
the amulet of Moudrilar
the amulet of Moudrilar
a blood-stained tunic
a barbed tail ring
(Glowing) a black mitre
a mask fashioned from jade
midnight dragon leggings
rear-claw extensions
a pair of spiked gauntlets
midnight dragon armguards
(Glowing) the Cloak of the Deep
the girdle of endless space
a malachite bracelet
an adamantite bracer
a gem-tipped spear

You peek at the inventory:
an opal wand
a practice shield
a metal canteen insulated in a wolf's pelt
(Humming) a blue-tinted crystal
( 2) a bandit's robe
a barbed whip flecked with crimson

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 2 PM> You step out of the shadows.
You stuff a gag in Emonnev's mouth.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 2 PM> steal wand emo
put wand charmsOops.

***Yeah, no more charms. Damnit.***

<515hp 489!
You steal an opal wand from Emonnev.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 2 PM> l
bf emoEntrance to the Sewers
You find yourself standing in a spacious quadruple sewer junction beneath
the city of Galadon. Gray stones have been fitted together with a coarse
mortar to create large conduits of water and refuse that extend in the four
cardinal directions. The walls are coated with a slick layer of filth and
muck, and a disgusting soup of raw sewage spreads ankle-deep on the floor.
On one of the walls, some crude graffiti has been scratched into the stone.
Emerging from the refuse is a rusty, dilapidated iron ladder that extends
up to broad sewer access point above. The bustle and light of the city can
be heard and seen through the opening, but in all other directions lie a
thick, enveloping darkness.


A dilapidated iron ladder is here, its bent rungs wrapped in filthy leather.

Kothak is here.
(Bound) (Trussed) (Invis) Emonnev is sleeping here.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 2 PM>
You wrap a blindfold around Emonnev's eyes.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 2 PM> get SLOW
You get a SLOW.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 3 PM>
Kothak gets a wild look in his eyes.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 3 PM>
You SLOW Emonnev.
Emonnev is moving more slowly.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 3 PM> SHIELD
wear razYou SHIELD
You are surrounded by a force shield.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 3 PM> or
sn
hide
sld emoYou stop using a blackjack.
You dual wield a straight razor.
A straight razor feels like a part of you!

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 3 PM> You attempt to move silently.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 3 PM> You attempt to hide.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 3 PM>
You step out of the shadows.
You manage to disarm a gem-tipped spear from Emonnev, but he awakens!

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 3 PM> drop spear
sac 1.
You drop a gem-tipped spear.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 3 PM> The gods give you 13 copper coins for your sacrifice of a gem-tipped spear.
Emonnev's loss of power *** DEVASTATES *** him!

***Eat your hearts out, APs***

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 3 PM> 1
#Ok. $target is now set to {emon}.
l em
Unlike most felar, this felar is barren of any hair whatsoever. All of
has been either shaved off or has fallen off. Replacing it are long,
strings of ancient runes both magical and devilish in nature. They curl
around his whole body like wisps of arcane mist, imprinted with dark
magicks. Although most are unrecognizeble, some you notice are marks for
binding, containment, and banishment. No part of his body is left unmarred
by these strange markings. The stark pink color of the inside of his perked
ears gives contrast to the rest of the body. On the marred, light grey skin
the ashen and black runes are stark contrast to his smoldering, olive eyes.
Flashes of ivory teeth, stained with crimson, can be seen when this felar
turns toward you. The lower fangs so long, they jet out from underneath
obsidian black lips. It is like this felar is a walking pentagram of both
summoning and banishment, protection and denial, conjuration and dismissal.
Emonnev, a male felar, has some small but disgusting cuts.
Emonnev is gagged.
Emonnev is blindfolded.

Emonnev is using:
a wooden ring with a black stone
a wooden ring with a black stone
the amulet of Moudrilar
the amulet of Moudrilar
a blood-stained tunic
a barbed tail ring
(Glowing) a black mitre
a mask fashioned from jade
midnight dragon leggings
rear-claw extensions
a pair of spiked gauntlets
midnight dragon armguards
(Glowing) the Cloak of the Deep
the girdle of endless space
a malachite bracelet
an adamantite bracer

You peek at the inventory:
a practice shield
a metal canteen insulated in a wolf's pelt
(Humming) a blue-tinted crystal
( 2) a bandit's robe
a barbed whip flecked with crimson

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 3 PM> kt
You trample around loudly again.
Your slash *** DEMOLISHES *** Emonnev!
Emonnev is covered with bleeding wounds.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 4 PM>
You parry Emonnev's claw.
You parry Emonnev's claw.
You parry Emonnev's claw.
The fighting knocks the gag from Emonnev's mouth.
Your slash DISMEMBERS Emonnev!
Your slash EVISCERATES Emonnev!
Your slash DISMEMBERS Emonnev!
Emonnev is gushing blood.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 4 PM> tr
You trip Emonnev and he goes down!
Your trip scratches Emonnev.
You dodge Emonnev's claw.
The fighting loosens the bindings from Emonnev's body.
The fighting knocks the blindfold from Emonnev's eyes.
Your slash misses Emonnev.
Your slash DISMEMBERS Emonnev!
Your slash EVISCERATES Emonnev!
Emonnev fades into existence.
Emonnev's thirst hits him.

Autosaving.
Emonnev is writhing in agony.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 4 PM>
Kothak puts a feather of levitation in a large sack.
Emonnev is writhing in agony.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 4 PM>
You parry Emonnev's claw.
You dodge Emonnev's claw.
You dodge Emonnev's claw.
Your slash EVISCERATES Emonnev!
Your slash DISMEMBERS Emonnev!
Your slash DISMEMBERS Emonnev!
Emonnev is convulsing on the ground.

<515hp 489m 550mv 17370tnl 4 PM> tr

You parry Emonnev's claw.
You parry Emonnev's claw.
You parry Emonnev's claw.
Your slash EVISCERATES Emonnev!
Emonnev is DEAD!!
You hear Emonnev's death cry.

>>I can say something before I'm gagged. If I don't think
>I've
>>got someone in my group or cabal who has a chance to
>intervene
>>in time, I might just not let you fight me in that case, but
>>let's say I will.
>
>This is irritating, since any good player can fire off a
>reasonably descriptive CB communication about where they are
>before the lag from blackjack wears off and you can stuff in
>the gag. Moot point, since nothing I can really do about
>that.

I think this is really one of the big balancing factors to binders, as it is to sleep. If you could, say, blackjack and gag in one move I think they'd need to be a lot weaker across the board to be fair. My impression is that it's probably more fun as-is.

>Yes, there are always "helpers around," even for the most
>annoying/biggest badass/etc. characters out there. Even in
>evil vs. evil fights, I have goods waking up my victims
>constantly.

This will happen no matter who you're fighting, really. Everyone has enemies, and 90% of them don't pay attention to whether someone is sleeping, bound, etc. before they attack if they see them. This traditionally makes playing a caballed class with sleep, similar knockout skill, or snare frustrating for me -- my allies are often my worst enemies.

>As of mid-2004, you can get tie and cheapshot, but not truss.
>Qaledus mentioned that he and team-thief might be adjusting
>and *posting* the thief points table, which would be nice to
>see.

It's something we've talked about. I wasn't very involved in the last thief revamp and this time around I'd like to do a little more, but there are some other things I need to get off my plate first.


>Bindhands will drop your secondary wield, which helps.
>Thieves are also able to fumble, poison, weaken and plague.

And more. Scrolls go an awesome long way.

>>Truss can be pretty long, but it's not forever. It won't
>>always even be longer than iron-grip, and I do have some
>power
>>to shift these odds in my favor unless you have me by total
>>surprise.
>
>I don't know the duration on iron grip, but truss lasts for
>more than half a day.

Emphasis in the above passage is mine.

>Example:

Nice log. I'm curious to hear your (being Nivek's) opinions on it and how you think the balance of binder thief vs. anti-paladin are or should be.

>Nice log. I'm curious to hear your (being Nivek's) opinions
>on it and how you think the balance of binder thief vs.
>anti-paladin are or should be.

I think a binder thief's great incapacitating abilities are balanced well against their in-combat abilities. Assuming you land your binds, you won't even use dirt or disarm, leaving you with kick and trip. Circle, if you have a merc or charmie.

As an aside, I'm much more scared of warriors than APs, but here we go:

Against an AP, I prep my binders differently based on their race. An AP's first reaction to a missed blackjack is to bash. The smarter ones (and I'm really shooting myself in the foot here) flee/sleep.

If a fire giant, I go for the maximum protection available. You need to be enlarged to jack them and you still might miss, so you have to prep enough to survive until you get an opening to flee.

Against a human-sized, not so much protection, since their bashes aren't as effective. Duergar are, in my opinion, the easiest AP race to kill, since most of them think they can't be hurt by a thief they can see.

If anything, I think the balance is shifted more toward the AP side of the scale. Imagine two scenarios, one where the binder thief catches the AP unaware and one where the AP catches the binder thief unaware.

I think that a well-prepped binder can take down any race/class combination, but they are so dependent on one skill (blackjack) that it takes a lot of finesse. That's a lot to be asking against a class like an AP that has both a physical (bash, trip) and magical (summon, sleep) arsenal to use when _they_ catch someone unprepared.

The AP is going to win more of those fights than the binder because the binder is solely reliant on blackjack landing. Even then, it's not a sure thing since as you pointed out, the AP _might_ not drop their weapon. An AP putting a thief to sleep? They'll get the kill a lot more often.

If I could change anything, it would be to give binders more options to initiate combat against classes like warriors and APs. On the other hand, I would not trade a reduction in the great incapacitating powers they get in return.

The match-up is good as-is.

AP succeeds 10 times more often at killing a binder thief than a binder thief succeeds in taking an AP's weapon..... Binder thief still comes out ahead since the one time they succeed, they destroy hours and hours of work and paranoia. The thief loses 1/3 con. Even ten times, they haven't lost as much time regearing as an AP with a large unholy would lose in the one success.

... that's more of a case of balancing _within_ the AP class. I was commenting on AP vs. binder thief. If, as we agree, the AP wins more often, then the matchup is skewed toward the AP.

and I think that's essentially my, and Dwuggard's, and the other person who agreed to disagree, but actually sort of agreed's point. I have not problem with losing to a binder thief as an AP persay, or with dying in general, but as an AP, losing even once is so devastating as to make the class unfun and essentially unplayable for me. Though I keep trying, so I guess that makes me a masochist.

but god knows I'm gonna give it anyway. This log is essentially the reason for my viewpoint on ap's, so it's only appropraite.

I consider playing an ap like telling a room full of kitten stranglers how much you truely truely love your new kitten and can't live without him. You're putting yourself through a lot of build up, with no reasonable chance of success. Your kitten is going to get strangled, and you're going to lose your unholy. Period. Why do you think they delete after losing a big unholy? It's just too devasting, and the reality that you 100% will lose it again hits home. Why bother with all the work? If I'm going to put in that kind of work/time (ala a lich, or 7 path voker) I for damn sure better get more than one death before all my work goes poof. Or in the specific case of binders... I don't even have to die, or even get a fight.

>>>I can say something before I'm gagged. If I don't think
>>I've
>>>got someone in my group or cabal who has a chance to
>>intervene
>>>in time, I might just not let you fight me in that case,
>but
>>>let's say I will.
>>

I'm going to try not to be a ####, but this flabbergasts me. You're saying that you never get in fights you don't see coming? Sorry, but no. Also, this post will be heavy with sarcasm, try not to be offended.

>>This is irritating, since any good player can fire off a
>>reasonably descriptive CB communication about where they are
>>before the lag from blackjack wears off and you can stuff in
>>the gag. Moot point, since nothing I can really do about
>>that.

Any good player has to be in a cabal? Or you just have to be in a cabal to play an AP? Or barring previous, you need a perma group that's always there to wake you?

>I think this is really one of the big balancing factors to
>binders, as it is to sleep. If you could, say, blackjack and
>gag in one move I think they'd need to be a lot weaker across
>the board to be fair. My impression is that it's probably
>more fun as-is.

Yea, because no one has ever gotten as much time as they needed to spellup/bind someone after a successful sleep/blackjack.

>>Yes, there are always "helpers around," even for the most
>>annoying/biggest badass/etc. characters out there. Even in
>>evil vs. evil fights, I have goods waking up my victims
>>constantly.
>
>This will happen no matter who you're fighting, really.
>Everyone has enemies, and 90% of them don't pay attention to
>whether someone is sleeping, bound, etc. before they attack if
>they see them. This traditionally makes playing a caballed
>class with sleep, similar knockout skill, or snare frustrating
>for me -- my allies are often my worst enemies.

Against an AP, you only have to succeed once.

>>As of mid-2004, you can get tie and cheapshot, but not truss.
>
>>Qaledus mentioned that he and team-thief might be adjusting
>>and *posting* the thief points table, which would be nice to
>>see.
>
>It's something we've talked about. I wasn't very involved in
>the last thief revamp and this time around I'd like to do a
>little more, but there are some other things I need to get off
>my plate first.
>
>
>>Bindhands will drop your secondary wield, which helps.
>>Thieves are also able to fumble, poison, weaken and plague.
>
>And more. Scrolls go an awesome long way.
>
>>>Truss can be pretty long, but it's not forever. It
>won't
>>>always even be longer than iron-grip, and I do have some
>>power
>>>to shift these odds in my favor unless you have me by total
>>>surprise.

Don't play a non-duergar ap. Got it.

>Nice log. I'm curious to hear your (being Nivek's) opinions
>on it and how you think the balance of binder thief vs.
>anti-paladin are or should be.

I'm sure anyone can objectively look at this, see the part where fully bound the felar was whooping the #### out of the thief, and consider the fact that the thief *could* have (if not for a failed blackjack) disarmed and destroyed the ap's weapon without any fight whatsoever, and consider this a fair trade off.

Come on nepenthe, if all of the work you put into Istendil (and the potential for any sort of recovery, but that's a seperate issue) was destroyed and you didn't even get a fight, would you consider that fun?

There are other issues here, and I've glossed over some points to make main points stand out (for instance I'm ignoring assassinate) but the point is that something is seriously wrong with a class when 1? (astilamos) has age deathed and very few even con die in the entire history of the class. People just find them way to frustrating to play. It's like playing the lottery, only you actually have to work just to get the tickets. At the end of the day, the odds are astronomically stacked against you, and you're kitten is getting strangled. Why would anyone put forth effort when that is the end result 100% of the time.

>I'm going to try not to be a ####, but this flabbergasts me.
>You're saying that you never get in fights you don't see
>coming? Sorry, but no. Also, this post will be heavy with
>sarcasm, try not to be offended.

It happens, but it's very rare, on the order of 1-2 times for every 1000 hours of play. Even the time last year that I got assassinated I was talking to my group at the time about how I was pretty sure the attempt was coming -- I just thought the risk was worth it at the time.

That's not to say I don't get in a lot of fights where I think my position is a lot better than it actually is, to my fatal disappointment.

>Any good player has to be in a cabal? Or you just have to be
>in a cabal to play an AP? Or barring previous, you need a
>perma group that's always there to wake you?

In a cabal or grouped if you're going to go trucking up and down Eastern Road with a "blackjack me" sign around your neck, anyway.

>>>>Truss can be pretty long, but it's not forever. It
>>won't
>>>>always even be longer than iron-grip, and I do have some
>>>power
>>>>to shift these odds in my favor unless you have me by
>total
>>>>surprise.
>
>Don't play a non-duergar ap. Got it.

Actually, duergar wasn't even the race I was thinking of for a racial solution, though it'd obviously be handy.

>Come on nepenthe, if all of the work you put into Istendil
> and the potential for any sort of recovery, but that's a
>seperate issue) was destroyed and you didn't even get a fight,
>would you consider that fun?

He got killed in PK six or seven times, in at least one case losing over 300 phylacteries and a bunch of unique Hell equipment that, as far as I know, no one had before or since.

What stops you from starting again with a new weapon? You absolutely can recover.

I think an A-P without a super-weapon will still kill a lot more than they die if they're good. This gets more and more true as controls come out. If anything, this seems like an argument to me to cap unholy weapons at 20 charges or something.

>I think an A-P without a super-weapon will still kill a lot
>more than they die if they're good.

So can be said about many other classes.
Problem is not in their PK ratio, the main concern is that the death is very costly for them.
Even if you lose a full set of Hell gear you may hope to recover it in 100 hours. It is not so for a good unholy weapon.

>This gets more and more true as controls come out. If anything, this seems like an
>argument to me to cap unholy weapons at 20 charges or
>something.

Keep in mind that unholy below 10 charges usually is "worse" than other top weapons that usually have good bonuses. Though it becomes better when you gain controls.

It's considerably easier to recover as a lich, not only are you are both more deadly and harder to kill, but you don't have to get the final hit, or any hits on a kill to make a phylactery. All you have to do it locate the corpse before someone destroys it.

Compare that with having to rack up 40 or 50 straight pk wins (in which you get the final hit) and I don't think there is a case here for which is easier.

If it was so easy to just start a new weapon, I feel like people would, but for the most part, any AP with a good weapon has been a one and done AP. Your entire range (barring any cabal allies) will probably be looking to kill (gang) you down even after you've lost your good unholy. You can't just avoid them until you've got a good weapon again, as.... well... you have to kill them to recover. If you could leech from dead corpses, then sure, even without locate corpse, you could recover, but not when you have to locate the living and fighting and kill them before they can call for aid and then rinse repeat 50 times as a class that has all the survivability of a rager (<--exageration).

Finally.... I point to the utter lack of AP's who have built multiple large weapons (recently I know Zulg sorta did it) in statistical support of my claims.

Edit: I look forward to a Nepenthe AP that's in hero range when I'm playing something that wants to kill AP's. Pretty sure I'll make your life miserable and go ahead and win that matchup, even with all the skill and knowledge advantages you have over me.

>and I don't think there is a
>case here for which is easier.

Let me say there's a lot you don't know about liches and leave it at that.

>Edit: I look forward to a Nepenthe AP that's in hero range
>when I'm playing something that wants to kill AP's. Pretty
>sure I'll make your life miserable and go ahead and win that
>matchup, even with all the skill and knowledge advantages you
>have over me.

I'll get around to it one of these days.

Were you around for Nabburak? (not me) He lost a couple pretty good weapons on his way to the top and bounced back. Ultimately he was beaten by politics and deleted and never really was knocked off the top of the heap in PK.

You'll see why.

>>and I don't think there is a
>>case here for which is easier.
>
>Let me say there's a lot you don't know about liches and leave
>it at that.

Let my say there's a lot you don't know about anti-paladins and leave it at that.

>>Edit: I look forward to a Nepenthe AP that's in hero range
>>when I'm playing something that wants to kill AP's. Pretty
>>sure I'll make your life miserable and go ahead and win that
>>matchup, even with all the skill and knowledge advantages
>you
>>have over me.
>
>I'll get around to it one of these days.

I'll be the one whooping your ass when you do.

>Were you around for Nabburak? (not me) He lost a couple
>pretty good weapons on his way to the top and bounced back.
>Ultimately he was beaten by politics and deleted and never
>really was knocked off the top of the heap in PK.

Nabburak's player is a close to a present day elite as there is (IMHO), and I'd love to hear their comments. He may not have been knocked off of the top of the pk-heap, but he didn't really play Nabb after losing his empire allies (this is NOT meant to be a slight to his player). He just didn't continue playing after leaving the empire. Istendil did and was successful. Zorszaul did (after Entropy) and was successful. Valguerna did (after destroy Masters) and was successfulish (we all know how bad Valg sucks at pk... apparently). Mekantos's recent lich spent most of his lichdom as an anathema, and built up a pretty buff lich.

I want to see a Nepenthe ap put your money where your mouth is, because basically, I'm not buying it. I'm not nearly as good as Nabburak's player, but I'm reasonably certain I can whipe the floor with any AP. Period.

>>>and I don't think there is a
>>>case here for which is easier.
>>
>>Let me say there's a lot you don't know about liches and
>leave
>>it at that.

Let my say there's a lot you don't know about anti-paladins
and leave it at that.

Unless of course, you are implying that your status as an immortal gives you the gameplay edge in knowing how to better fight as an AP, than I, who have played probably hundreds of AP's, and certainly more, more recently than you. But we wouldn't be saying anything like that, would we?

This is a cheap shot, delete it if you like, but I didn't play the ignorance card, and when it comes to AP's, and fighting I'm not ignorant.

I doubt there is much about the mechanics of cf that nepentha doesn't know better then any of the non-immortal playerbase.

because you have played a class a lot doesn not mean your good at it, I have seen players play warriors 40 times a row and suck every time and then other players use the exact same combo's to achieve greatness so keep that in mind.

a-p's are very tough in theory if you look at their skill set but in order to fully utilize it you have to be one paranoid calculating SOB and most people just don't have it in them to play that way.

I played an A-P during let's say the last year that I let go of (pre-hero) for unrelated reasons. I lost a few ~10-20 charge weapons and kept going. Mostly, these were because I decided to take risks that were not especially wise. (e.g. "I'm sure this group of Battle won't gang on me -- I've fought them each individually before and not taken more than a piece or two of their gear when they killed me! ####, I'm dead and naked.")

I certainly never felt overmatched by any single opponent. If I was trying to play an uber weapon guy I'm sure I'd be more conservative, but it goes both ways -- playing that character, I averaged far above 1 charge per kill. I'm sure a lot of the more conservative A-Ps don't.

I'll never tell you it's easy to keep a single weapon, but I think that A-P stacks up fairly well against almost anything in the game. I think they could possibly use a few more small things near hero (such as the Bloodlust change we put in last year), but they're not a weak class. Beyond that, I've lost track of the point I was trying to make.

>Were you around for Nabburak? (not me) He lost a couple
>pretty good weapons on his way to the top and bounced back.
>Ultimately he was beaten by politics and deleted and never
>really was knocked off the top of the heap in PK.

Actually, I lost only one good weapon ( 24 charges ) and a few weak weapons ( I think 6, 3 and 1 charges ).

My next and final weapon was about 100 charges but, in fact, I was very lucky to keep it for so long.
I had several chances to lose it but I didn't.
I got disarmed twice at the enemy's inners with defenders there, both times my allies managed to pick it first. ( I couldn't do that personally )
When I died to four forties near Hamsah I lost everything but the axe, some random lowbie AP looted it and returned it back to me. ( to my surprise... as he wasn't even a bloodoath. The axe has about 50 charges that time )
Also I had several fights where I was very close to death.

After all, you may just lose your axe to link loss ( happened to me twice ) when you are simply unable to executed all the prepared axe-saving-tricks.

I had only 100+ pks when I deleted, so I don't think I was going to build another 100 charges axe again should I lose my axe.

What would you say to making iron grip a togglable spell that slowly drains an a-p's mana after a certain point? Should help out an A-P against your binder thieves and sleep/fumble-monkeys, yet not to the point that his weapon is unattainable.

-E.

Invokers' strength isn't based on how long their PK streak without dying has gone.

Likewise, "out the gate", I'd rather have a 4 path invoker powerwise as a support char in a group dealing damage than a chargeless, wandless AP, because I guarantee you I'd survive longer as the invoker.

Just my 2 cents, I find APs to be a frustrating class in general. Not that they can't kill, I'm not that good (definately wasn't then) and I did Ok with a human one (not great, but, I had some kills), but I find them very challenging to play well compared to say....warrior. Hell, even compared to a necro.

Spamming spells is far from hard, hell you can be semi alseep at the computer and spam.

Because my purpose playing CF is only to have fun. To me its a whole lot more fun trying to build (or even just not to lose) an axe than it is to mindlessly spam.

I think you are all putting too much value on the axe. I declare that any character who has dual wield, third attack, ABS, haste (bloodlust)and spiderhands (iron grip) along with bash is going to be able to take on 1/2 of hero range (especially the PK challenged fortressites.) For the next 40% a decent suit of armor and dirt;disarm or energy drain will do the trick, and for the last 10% maybe a big axe would seal the deal.

I dunno, I guess maybe I was just lucky with my APs, and not so lucky with my invokers but... whatever.

Because I can list on one hand the number of good AP's over the last say.... 4 years, but just naming scion arial invokers who wooped ass over the last 2 years would be considerably more difficult (read impossible) to count on one hand.

heh.

spamming's not hard, it just takes a long time.

I tend to mostly play warriors. I've played plenty of warrior sword specs and killed some of the top aps that were around those times. I've never had an easy go at killing invokers. So, from the perspective of what do I find easy to kill, APs probably come near the top of the list.

My record for invoker was all spells (seven paths) at ~120 hours. Now while invokers are fairly easy to kill pre-shields, the biggest difficulty really is spending time spamming. APs on the other hand have a huge target on their forehead from day one that just gets bigger as they rank. For me, I'd say either is as easy for me to kill until about 40, then the AP is easier. Personally I don't find either particularlly difficult to play though, just stay with.

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

An invoker there's a draw to not delete, since you burned tons of time in making the char powerful. With an AP though, once you lose the axe its like *&**!@!!!$!#@!#@ delete;delete; Heh.