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Laearrist | Thu 22-Sep-05 12:58 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
289 posts
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#10360, "Your hardcore playerbase is erroding. Time for innovation."
Edited on Thu 22-Sep-05 01:03 PM
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This was a good read... but...,
SPN,
23-Sep-05 09:32 AM, #5
Nevermind, I see where you are going with this.,
SPN,
23-Sep-05 10:41 AM, #8
RE: Your hardcore playerbase is erroding. Time for inn...,
Evil Genius (Anonymous),
23-Sep-05 05:50 AM, #1
It's mostly about other game companies and genre's like...,
Theerkla,
23-Sep-05 06:25 AM, #2
A little latteral thinking is neccessary... I'll explai...,
Laearrist,
23-Sep-05 09:24 AM, #4
Good post (thank you) - some text,
Sebeok,
23-Sep-05 09:42 AM, #6
RE: A little latteral thinking is neccessary... I'll ex...,
Evil Genius (Anonymous),
23-Sep-05 10:27 AM, #7
Wasn't exactly, but your's is also a very valid point. ...,
Laearrist,
23-Sep-05 11:49 AM, #9
Very Interesting Read,
Kastellyn,
27-Sep-05 12:25 PM, #10
Resource question:,
TheDude,
27-Sep-05 01:01 PM, #11
RE: Resource question:,
Valguarnera,
27-Sep-05 01:52 PM, #12
The Other Way...,
Kastellyn,
27-Sep-05 04:47 PM, #13
I think I agreed with every single word in this post. ...,
Catastrophic,
27-Sep-05 05:57 PM, #14
You should've read the link,
Valkenar,
23-Sep-05 09:16 AM, #3
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SPN | Fri 23-Sep-05 09:27 AM |
Member since 24th Oct 2004
352 posts
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#10374, "This was a good read... but..."
In response to Reply #0
Edited on Fri 23-Sep-05 09:32 AM
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I have to ask how does this apply to CF, in terms of fixing the problem of waning playerbase.
This post does an excellent explanation on how CF and the MUD genre has gotten into the bind it is today, much like how other genres that have bit the dust, but once again it does nothing except say we need innovation to keep the MUD genre alive. And quite frankly to keep any thing in vogue, it needs constant innovation otherwise it fades to black.
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SPN | Fri 23-Sep-05 10:41 AM |
Member since 24th Oct 2004
352 posts
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#10377, "Nevermind, I see where you are going with this."
In response to Reply #5
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I see now that it does not matter the specifics of the innovation and change, just that there needs to be a stead, even if slow, rate of change, and big changes draw back the crowds.
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#10365, "RE: Your hardcore playerbase is erroding. Time for inn..."
In response to Reply #0
Edited on Fri 23-Sep-05 05:50 AM
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>http://lostgarden.com/2005/09/nintendos-genre-innovation-strategy.html > >Read it, it's very insightful and might just apply here. >Thanks to the people at Penny Arcade for the link. > >Laearrist > >p.s. I think the "Good-bye semi-hardcore" section VERY >specifically applies to CF in it's current mode.
Without reading the link, i'd suggest you think on the fact that Nintendo tends to innovate over a number of games. I've never seen nintendo revist the same game 100's of times and update it with innovation whilst still keeping it essentially the same.
Edit: What i'm trying to say is that i'd consider the article to be irrelevant. It's a totally different field.
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Theerkla | Fri 23-Sep-05 06:25 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
1055 posts
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#10366, "It's mostly about other game companies and genre's like..."
In response to Reply #1
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Laearrist | Fri 23-Sep-05 09:24 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
289 posts
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#10373, "A little latteral thinking is neccessary... I'll explai..."
In response to Reply #2
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CF is, and you can argue this if you want, but I'll point to the CF "clones" as evidence, a genre all to itself. CF got this way by being an innovator. Suplications for priests, the dynamic nature pk, customizable classes, are all some of the innovations that made CF both popular, and fun to play. These things have not gone away, but they haven't been built upon (as much) of late as they once were. Lately, the overall trend has been in refining game mechanics, adding depth, making the game more stable, and an explosion of content. However, in my opinion, this had made CF as a genre into a very mature genre. This isn't neccessarily a bad thing, as the article suggests, as it does satisfy the hard-core playerbase. However, this playerbase errodes naturally, not because you can only play so many FPS, but because you can only play so many hero's under the same overall system before the desire to play yet another one wanes. As the hard-core playerbase errodes, and the semi-hardcore find themselves being pushed out, the game loses players overall. No matter how newbie-friendly the game gets, there are less complex, easier to get into games that have essentially the same features out there. They won't have the depth, but then as a newbie, you generally can't see how to ever remember how to get around all of Midgaard.... depth isn't really a big attraction.
I mentioned (complained) in an earlier post about a lack of big changes of late. I'm trying to use this article to show that an innovation of the kind that made CF what is it today is just what CF needs to not only recapture the imagination of the retired hard-core, the discontented semi-hardcore, and hook the newbies might be just what the doctor ordered. A new class, a cabal shift, etc. How many of the retired elite would return to check out a new class, or fight a new cabal? I would say that these things have always sparked growth and reintrest in the CF community and I'd go so far as to say something alchemical that allowed some sort of trade profession thing would also attract a whole new type of audience who enjoys exactly this sort of thing.
This is already long winded, but I hope with what I've explained (or tried to) that you can read the article in the context of CF and see that it does make some applicable points. Nintendo can't innovate within the same game because their games aren't dynamic. CF is. It's a strength, but if it isn't used, then the game becomes more and more stale until only the super-hardcore elite remain.
Laearrist
None of this is meant to be sky is falling ####, but rather to offer a helpful incite into where CF is, and where it needs to go to become even more successful.
Also, it wasn't really meant for players, as we can't change the game. The imms who have read and understood and put aside any personnal bias will *hopefully* be sparked by it's insights to push those big projects despite us discontent assholes who suck the enjoyment from their jobs. Of course, for me personnally, if I didn't care, I wouldn't complain, but that's always hard to see when someone is ####ting upon your hard work. <-- That's something like an apology... take it... it's all you're getting
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#10376, "RE: A little latteral thinking is neccessary... I'll ex..."
In response to Reply #4
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Ok, i apologise. I've since read the link and agree with what you're saying (either that I have a completely differing understanding but whatever, it's good). My concern was that CF is one game with one codebase. It's rather hard to create "innovation" for CF as opposed to just variations on the theme.
Reading through the link and thinking of various concerns/threads/arguments that have raged on various forums it's actually obvious that there are many games within the beast that is CF.
Pk'ing, RP, Exploration, Quests, etc.
Innovation/development within these key areas develops overall appeal of the game and appeal to players who seek different things other than the extremely mature CF.
That kind of what you're thinking?
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Laearrist | Fri 23-Sep-05 11:03 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
289 posts
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#10378, "Wasn't exactly, but your's is also a very valid point. ..."
In response to Reply #7
Edited on Fri 23-Sep-05 11:49 AM
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TheDude | Tue 27-Sep-05 01:01 PM |
Member since 20th Sep 2005
285 posts
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#10426, "Resource question:"
In response to Reply #10
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I keep on hearing (reading) that there are no shortages of ideas that you folks have, and always have in the works, but that you lack resources for much of the heavy duty coding that these ideas require. And I tend to believe you as we all have things in our lives, hobbies, and at work that are on the proverbial plate but we just can't get to as soon as we would like.
Now I understand this completely, as I develop software, and it always seems that people think the stuff happens "automagically". Even to the point where customers sometimes seem like little kids who want their latest toy three days ago, without having any notion of what kind of strain developing that toy is going to put on the ~limited~ resources working on the project.
Anyways, I had a point somewhere here... I am curious to know - what is the process for bringing up new coders...or is there even a process? It would seem that you should have absolutely no problem getting help in this area - even free help - considering the types of people that play MUDs, and CF in particular. I mean, I would consider donating some time and energy in helping out, but don't think I have the ~MUDDING~ ability for what I am guessing it takes to get there ... (become an IMM, put in your time there, and who knows what else..?).
The major problem I see would be the trust issue. You can't just let anyone in. Also knowing where the game is headed in the eyes and minds of the Implementors has got to be key.
Well, okay, I done said enough, just was a bit curious on how, or even if, new coders are brought into the tightly-knit and highly guarded world CF has becomeover the years.
(And props to you all for the good work, by the way!!).
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Valguarnera | Tue 27-Sep-05 01:52 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
6904 posts
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#10427, "RE: Resource question:"
In response to Reply #11
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1) You're correct that ideas outpace the ability to implement them, even after cutting them down to only the ideas which gain consensus. This has been true for as long as I've been on the staff, and going back through our records it looks to have always been true.
2) The limiting factors on coding resources are, IMHO:
- Trust. This is the dominant limiting factor, but a malicious coder would be a disaster. Access is tightly limited to a few people, with a few more submitting code by email for implementation by someone else. - Technical Competence. A sloppy coder will cause a high rate of crashes, possibly including extended downtimes. The damage from this would outweigh the positive impact of many projects. Everyone makes mistakes, but it takes a lot of training and a good "safety net" to make sure mistakes are caught, repaired, and prevented. - MUD Competence. It's rare that a coder is handed specifications so exact that they don't have to fill in any blanks. You need people who can guesstimate those details with some degree of accuracy. This takes knowing the game's present state, as well as where it is heading. - Real Life. The types of people most likely to satisfy the trust and reliability conditions mentioned have been with us a while, and are likely to be older people who hold full-time jobs, have relationship or family commitments, and the like. - Burnout. It's hard work, and a lot of it is thankless. A common example is that repairing something that periodically crashes us is usually only noticed when it's not being done. Also, the bulk of people (everyone but me, now?) who code for us are programmers at their day jobs, and it's easy for CF coding to feel like overtime. Finally, suffice to say that a (vocal) minority of the playerbase is something that has caused all of our coders to take time off from time to time.
valguarnera@carrionfields.com
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Valkenar | Fri 23-Sep-05 09:16 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
1203 posts
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#10372, "You should've read the link"
In response to Reply #1
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>Without reading the link, i'd suggest you think on the fact that Nintendo tends to innovate over a number of games.
If you'd read the link, then you would've seen that it said exactly that. It also discusses dynamics that are relevant to refinement strategies, and what happens when a genre matures and what it means to people whose strategy is not genre-switching. What did you even base your opinion on? The fact that the word nintendo is in the url?
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