Mon Sep 6 03:06:14 2010

At 8 o'clock PM, Day of Deception, 30th of the Month of Winter
on the Theran calendar Nallos perished, never to return.

You were a good paladin, solid Squire was looking forward to scrapping with you on my side more. Come back soon?

After the whole shenanigans of the last character, I thought it was time I step out of my comfort and try a goodie....a paladin....and a fortress member. The irony to get empowered by the man who laid out the deny and who would guess I'd play this after an AP? Ya...I'm never going back Our interactions were fine (kinda short but I'm happy with that) but I don't think I'm making a paladin/fortress, let alone a goodie again.

The basic role idea was "good is dumb", sphere honesty - it probably rubbed people the wrong way and it got on my own nerves later on because it can be absolutely painful to watch people play goodies and keep a straight face. Getting chewed out by the "Elsyeium Marshal" for calling Nishka a fool wasn't exactly fun - if it was a serious conversation yes, but starting off with "I will be glad to relieve you of your duties"....really? I did get full empowerment and virtue after that though so half of me believes I should have told the Immortal to get bent but I caved to the threat.

Now onto the finer details....

Marshals are fun but are still incredibly broken.

-I cannot fathom how no one caught how broke "bat" was before I made this guy - I prayed twice and it's been on the bug board for probably 3 weeks now without even a peep. "Bat" uses your hand to hand damage and skill, not your weapon. So when you "retaliate" for a small injure it's kinda crap. I'm positive about this because it always did normal damage (instead of elemental types) and I perfected hand to hand spamming it. The whole idea is you get free hits and can spam the skill for more hits but when they do no damage it's kinda terrible. I'm not really sure if it stopped me being disarmed at all because I still got disarmed quite frequently by Hanord/Zubei/Vanquisher/etc. Please fix this.....

-Even at 100%, fend rarely retaliated back which was disappointing. If you're fighting more than one it would be lucky to hit back to one of them. It's a group feint, just like evasion.

-Manuever rarely worked for me and I think it has to do with strength of an elf being so low. I tried using it in pvp a few times and it never worked so I just kinda gave up using it.

-The actual skill marshal isn't bad. Rally is morale and a group haste for a set amount of rounds which was nice, phallanx is +defense for your groupmates and you can auto block for them, regroup is group retreat (really wish this had no lag), and forefront is group rescue. Forefront didn't seem to work to well, especially if you're not actually fighting (no auto-assist for example) - and I never saw redirect damage from it even though it should have more than once. Most skills only work if you are tanking so things like regroup can screw you if something happens wrong (since you only take the group with you if you're tanking everything, else you retreat yourself). All of it takes mana, all of it lasts a set amount of rounds (not hours). I wish it could be done outside of combat like a "stance" and wish it had some fixes but I generally liked it.

-Pugil boneshatter was like 10% chance as an elf so bleh, rather just wrath spam.

-No edges, no holy word (no open hand) or bless, no spiritual hammer (faith virtue), or a bunch of other perks....and I didn't think using demon-headed pendants was good for a paladin so you're basically screwed with a no-disarm staff. It really just needs to be finished first...which gets to my next point...

-Staff options for a non-hero goodie blow. Can't get justice, can't request dawn/light until hero, can't get eagle inscribed (or it's held by a mule tribunal), striking is halfway decent, walnut/yew are decent, and that's about it. Thornspiked isn't bad (but killing a druid as a paladin?) and oh there's one outside Yzekon I never got to go get but beyond that it's pretty rough. There's no awesome Bar'talon or Defiance option. Also people need to inform the hero paladins you can't request for other people - no matter how nice it is, it's in the helpfile for a reason

-In general being a non-hero goodie is rough for gear. Now I know why people rank so fast as goodies is because it's super easy (hello spiderhaunt/maus quests) and you can't request anything half-decent until you are a hero. Another point that sucks is that you can't kill for gear really, you have either people who don't deserve it (I lost count of the times I saw other fortress die with prayer beads/etc and I wanted to loot...) or they're held by other people like lowbie levelsitters. And ya, I call bs on Kemrin handing 95% of his set to a non-pledge storm giant warrior level 20-something before deleting. Just saying.

-Squire powers blow so now I can sympathize with the Fortress people who complain about this. Seriously the power can come from super cheap potions and the paladin can cast both of them. Having the faith virtue skill "fast" made me hate this a bit more because if my flight fell I couldn't quaff a potion for a full day. Which meant no more fighting Zubei/Hanord with auto-trip.

Anyways, it was rough. I leveled super quick, I had a virtue and empowerment (side note: silent prayer seems kinda pointless with Silent Tower gone...irony there I know)....but it just wasn't fun. I had like 4-5 mob deaths in the 40s, one at 23tnl which put me to 29.8k tnl and I really just lost interest. It felt more like a chore than anything and I couldn't swallow being on the goodie side...especially with a class made for groups. It was like herding cats. I know people are new, we were all there, but when the hero with double prayer bead, brilliance, thin silvers, etc asks me where yellow roots are from I wanted to cry inside. Oh well. Maybe I'm done with CF for now, we'll see.

Peace

I really am, it's great that you were willing to try something entirely different as Isildur suggested. I'm sorry you didn't like the experience though.

I think goodie is actually pretty fun. The fact that all your goals are set in stone - kill all red aura, protect all gold aura, ignore neutrals unless they are doing evil, help them do good, etc. Plus there's more fluffy RP going around, people are nice and friendly and you know who you can always trust. But the problem comes when you have those (rather irresponsible) suicidal people who insist on pulling people down with them.

I think IMMs should not punish goodies who abandon incompetent allies after making at least a token effort to help.

I like how you just spout stuff out that you have no clue about. When I was deleting there were 2 pledges on and no cabalmembers, I got them both to come to Galadon and divied out my gear between them. An elf showed up so he got my mana stuff. I really really like seeing lowbies with awesome gear because it makes people like you bitch very loudly and its always really funny. I was going to go on and induct both of them but neither had evil kills yet.

"-In general being a non-hero goodie is rough for gear. Now I know why people rank so fast as goodies is because it's super easy (hello spiderhaunt/maus quests) and you can't request anything half-decent until you are a hero. Another point that sucks is that you can't kill for gear really.."

lolwut? You realize 85% of the gear Kemrin had that you loved bitching about I pk'd for right(I did trade 2 ermine stoles for 2 prayer beads after the guy had been wearing them for forever, and Bal'Talon was given by a Herald)? You realize I was so tired of people bitching about my gear I purposefully died to a group of three Imperials and lost it, then had a better set soon after from all the people that weren't afraid to try and kill me again? I really think thats just you and your inability to get decent gear without using your 'AIM request' skill.

I usually try to lone wolf it with Fort until hero, stay off the radar until you get Maran'd just getting evil kills, talk to people as they talk to you and be helpful. Then when you hit hero don't critisize but actually let people know what they're doing wrong after a fight. Pretty much if you do play again don't go in with the expectation that your cabalmates will be as coordinated as your permas. Go into every situation as if you're alone and have to keep everyone alive. Then when people actually do contribute and don't mess up you're more impressed and less pissed off.

You died on purpose to lose your gear, lol really expect us to believe that? As for giving your gear away I can see some fustration, I remember with one of my goodies it was annoying that your Paladin basically made claim to the strange bracers so that whenever you lost them it was, come on everyone let's go get "MY" bracers back. That meant my warrior never had a chance at getting them which sucked.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

Yes I charged into a group of three that I knew I couldn't kill with the expectation of dying and getting full looted, then asked one of them to post the log for the world to see so I could get some people to fight me again. And it worked really good.

Now knowing your past paladins you seem way too gear obsessed to throw it away, and even the imperials who killed you are claiming you cried about it. With Nhiv you basically claimed all the best pieces of gear as "Yours" no matter how many times you lost them, which granted wasn't often but was frustrating as hell for the rest of us who would have liked a shot at them. As someone on here likes to say shoot first and call whatever you hit the target?

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

I went for a span of 2 weeks where I'd log in, and every evil on in my range would either log out or avoid me like the plague. I really wanted to rack up kills, and being avoided wasn't a part of the plan. If I died with Niheriva and it was within my ability to go get the gear back, then yeah I'd go get it back. I gave away strange bracers pretty quickly after getting them with him, so I'm calling BS.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=4&topic_id=66478&mesg_id=66524&page=

We laugh about it every time you bring it up. He would be 'felar assassin', the guy that looted what you didn't get from your corpse. Nine posts down from your original rant, which apparently you're still ignoring.

Still <3 you. =)

"I was so tired of people bitching about my gear I purposefully died to a group of three Imperials..."

I guess that is why did you whine that mcuh... yes, it was not frustration, but RP. Sorry, I didn't understood that was RP. Certainly.


Lol. Lol lol lol lol!

...having a paladin saying "I'm gonna strip you for this" and other rage comments just makes me smile

I'm not part of the douchey 'I'ma full loot you even though I can't actually kill you' crowd.

Is your imaginary child going to grow up to be a compulsive liar too?

They say the kids are 3 times worse, you should encourage him to run for office.

"I'm not part of the douchey "I'ma full loot you even though I can't actually kill you' crowd."

I am pretty sure Iltch was exactally apart of this crowd. So by you, you MUST mean Kemrin, and now the person playing kemrin, who IS apart of said crowd.

you're grounded young man.
now go eat a moon pie.

Kemrin did, yeah. Cersa twice, then returned the gear.

I'm not a big fan of moonpies, now lets not abuse that anonymous business, you're not my mother.

Iltch vs. Ravon rivalry.

Specifically logs of you full saccing

I guess you've knocked yourself up a peg. Bravo

I never got a chance to full sac Ravon, but some payback in that regard would have been nice. I'd love to see a link if you're accusing me of full saccing anyone. And again, you're not my mother, I don't think anon posters are allowed to claim to be people they're not, its against the rules.

I was there when Zubei killed you and we had some interraction. Not terrible bad, but you should do better imo.

Keep it up and you'll be banned as well as outed, Gaspar.

I think you could have gotten your message across to Mishka in a way that might have resulted in your being congratulated by the imm instead of corrected.

I think with Team Good, while the conscending elf role is supposed to be valid, it's really not. Imms don't want vets beating up on the noobs who tend to gravitate towards team Good even though half the time they deserve it, they want the Fuzziness Cudliness roles for goods. I agree with the powers thing too, for anyone with a clue the non-maran powers are easily duplicated with preps, so you basically put them at a disadvantage which is why most vets don't play them. I don't understand why they don't throw them a bone, unless secretly they like watching the goodies get slaughtered, Muhahahaha.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

I played mostly good until about 1-2 years ago. Evil is much, much easier and goodies really do get slaughtered. I'd roll a goodie after my current just to even things up, but I'm not relishing the prospect of gear-hungry, PK-incompetent Fortress members whose lives I have to save, whose bodies I have to gear, whose skills I have to teach

But it's really not so bad when said newbies have a the right mindset for learning.

I think what newbies really need to learn is to stop gathering equipment from Dragon Lair X or Shiny Tower Y. PK is all about practice, not about gear. A good PKer will always have good gear, because he'll kill lots and won't die much. And good PK takes about... 400 hours or so to learn, over the course of a few characters. Until a newbie has learned to PK, he should not bother spending too much time getting gear. Plus, being gear-hungry is such bad RP for a Maran.

>relishing the prospect of gear-hungry, PK-incompetent Fortress
>members whose lives I have to save, whose bodies I have to
>gear, whose skills I have to teach

I think you could do a Fortress character and pretty much punt each of the above tasks.

>I think what newbies really need to learn is to stop gathering
>equipment from Dragon Lair X or Shiny Tower Y. PK is all about
>practice, not about gear.

I think its both. And when you lack skill, making up for it in gear, preps and skill percentages isn't a bad way to go.

I don't consider myself all that "good" when it comes to PK, but I manage to make a living on a fast link and fairly broad gear/area/prep knowledge. Personally, I find it hard to kill people when I have crap gear, crap skills, no preps and no gold. If I can't perform in those conditions, I question the wisdom of advising players even less skilled than me to put themselves in that position on purpose.

I believe he means to say that with crap gear, yes, you are going to die more. But, you will also get 'some' kills. And if you can do with it with crap gear, you're definitely going to be able to do it with good gear.

I'm going to agree with him that you're probably going to learn a whole lot by con-dieing a few 100-200 hour chars, before tackling more long-lived pk projects.

Also, regearing isn't nearly as much of a pain with crap gear. And full loots are even less likely ...

Maybe I have a skewed view of things, but I am very confident that if you gave me Humbert and geared me with x2 opal rings, x2 brass collars, shirt of shining silver chain, x2 charred bracers, dual lightforged swords etc I'd still get kills easily.

That's a highly gear-dependent character, since it is a warrior. If you are, say, a wrath-spamming paladin or an angel-toting conjurer, your chances of performing well with crap gear are even better!

Maybe with bad gear you have to 'scrape the bottom of the PK barrel' a little to gear up. Avoid the Emperor, Chancellor, etc, but kill the small fish until you gear up. Quite surprisingly lots of newbies have rather nice gear, and I am always really boggled when I see obvious newbies with sweet gear. Sometimes they are so inexperienced that I just leave them the gear if I can't use it and only a cabalmate can.

Anyway I don't mean to say that newbies don't have any right to good gear. I'm saying that exploring and gear-whoring to the extent of neglecting cabal defence/raid is not only bad RP, it also doesn't work out if you are a newbie. Unless you are tongni or elhe, the conservative elite pker sort, the marginal gain versus the marginal cost of gathering a shinier piece of gear is not worthwhile.

>I am very confident
>that if you gave me Humbert and geared me with x2 opal rings,
>x2 brass collars, shirt of shining silver chain, x2 charred
>bracers, dual lightforged swords etc I'd still get kills
>easily.

Humbert was a decent character for that, given the build. Especially since with white weapons you can pick on duergar/orcs, or with silver ones you have teo weapons with a decent prog. Catch someone who needs to enter commands to be effective in combat, bash bash bash flurry. It's not like that for all builds. You also know how to prep.

>If you are, say, a wrath-spamming paladin...

Yes, wrath spamming shield paladin can still (potentially) get kills with crap gear if someone is dumb enough to just stand there while he spams wrath on them. Or dumb enough to let themselves get summoned into a locked room and attacked.

>I'm saying that exploring and gear-whoring to
>the extent of neglecting cabal defence/raid is not only bad RP

Agreed here. Newbie or not, good gear or not, you need to own up to your cabal duties or get kicked out of the cabal.

>marginal gain versus the marginal cost of gathering a shinier
>piece of gear is not worthwhile.

Eh. For goodies, at least, some rare gear is relatively easy to gather. Request FTW.

>I am very confident
>that if you gave me Humbert and geared me with x2 opal rings,
>x2 brass collars, shirt of shining silver chain, x2 charred
>bracers, dual lightforged swords etc I'd still get kills
>easily.

>Humbert was a decent character for that, given the build. Especially >since with white weapons you can pick on duergar/orcs, or with >silver ones you have teo weapons with a decent prog. Catch someone >who needs to enter commands to be effective in combat, bash bash >bash flurry. It's not like that for all builds. You also know how to >prep.

I think you are only half getting the point. Being good at PK means knowing how to find success in a narrower margin. I am pretty sure if you gave tiger woods a twisted piece of scrap metal he would still be a better golfer then me using a set of the best clubs ever made. It is knowing how to use your tools to achieve success.

There are situations where a completly unprepped hero warrior with only the staff skill, no legacies, no gear except for a practice staff, etc can win or still contribute to a victory. You may have to wait to find an enemy who is so wounded they are only at 15 hp when you attack but that is what seperates a good player from a really good player. Finding those situations where you can win with the tools you have. The great player is someone who not only finds these situations but can engineer them.

Sure. Any character can kill a guy sitting around damned with 1hp and no movement. That's somewhat irrelevant to his overall point, which is that newbies shouldn't try to get good gear.

In your golf example, if I'm a newbie golfer who happens to work a day job and has ample funds, and my goal is to be as competitive in golf as I can, why wouldn't I research what the "best" set of clubs are, then go out and buy them? It won't magically make me a great golfer, but it might give me a slight advantage. If there's an advantage to be had, why not take it?

If you want to be good at golf you would get a higher return on investment from learning to be a good golfer then learning what the best equipment is. Instead of spending 2,000 on the greatest driver maybe buy a lesson in how to strike the ball and where to strategically try to drop your ball to set up the next shot.

To move my 1HP analogy to the golf course sure anyone can put from half an inch away but a good golfer will find themselves closer to the hole more often then a poor one.

I mean a great golfer will get more milage out of having great equipment then a poor golfer will get out of great equipment just like in CF. We have a tendency as a playerbase to look at how top end players use top end gear to do crazy things without realizing that a newer player with that same gear is just not going to be as nasty with it, even the fully automated stuff.

Because, 2 brass collars and some opals on a Storm giant = All misses and base HP.

You wouldn't even be able to hit opponents more than 5 in 20 or so on average.

How would you overcome that?

it is based off of the old d&d THAC0 system in which your level plays a big role. I mean it makes a difference in armor deflection but even at the highest end of armor deflection... its just not much.

I killed grurk as a mortal using opal rings charred bracers and orcish swords as a svirf at 51 while he was a hero. It is totally doable to kill people with a level 15 dam gear suit as a warrior at hero (you won't be a scary bane to your whole range but weapon average plays a huge role in damage output and the average of lightforge weapons doesn't change based on your gear.)

But Humbert was a decked character at low levels.

The equipment he's talking about would not win him any fights at low levels because THAC0 still matters.

Zeal: +2 str 2 con 9 dam 4 hit.
Berserk: +5 hit 10 dam
Warcry: +7 hit -13 svsp
Dual lightforged: +5 hit 5 dam

All that's really needed is bash bash bash on a weak but geared target. PK in CF is not a cage match, it's not about how much 'skill' you have at taking on big groups. A lot of it is dirty, opportunistic, cheap. And the people who are best at jumping on weak, fat gear-cows benefit from it. To be a master of CF PK, be good at locating enemies, fleeing, chasing. I mean, you need a lot more toe-to-toe skill in WoW arena combat, for one. And many other games.

The moment I have basic gear I can begin PKing, even at hero ranks. At low ranks it would work as well - 15 hitroll is enough to kill with.

Anyway, how did you think I got the sweet gear? Pretty much 1 or 2 pieces at a time, 1 kill after another. I didn't get charity (until Hiajist, but by then I had acquired that lowbie griefer reputation), nor did I loot any corpse I didn't make. PK is just hard work and determination, after you get the basics down. Anyone can do it. I'm not that good at CF myself.

Make an actual character that isn't bound to fail. This seems more like you wanted to be able to play a character that could within the structure of roleplay be an asshole to your allies. Which really is fine, but if think about it, if people are going to put up with someone who is an asshole they had better bring something to the table to make up for the attitude. You #### on their morale and what did you give in return or do to try and build them back up as better soldiers?

Play a low profile goodie who actually teaches without being an asshole. Balrahd has done it with several characters and been successful (I feel like I am proof of this and I have seen him manage well with others). That would impress me anyway. Not this a character that, in your own words, was based around "good is dumb". Build on the potential you see.

You played one character, not even to hero, and deleted the first time you got butthurt over being criticized (If you are going to dish it out, be able to take it). You know there are people in the fort who suck at pk and from what you have shown us you didn't try to help make it better you just belittled people when they made mistakes. How does that help anyone?

Definitely arrogant/condescending good is a valid role, but you don't get the normal experience of playing good while playing a character like that.

Kind of like playing a Battle berserker who secretly loves magic and ganging.

You have to color within the lines a little bit first to get a better handle on how you can riff on the standards while making a character that's still fun.

>Make an actual character that isn't bound to fail. This
>seems more like you wanted to be able to play a character that
>could within the structure of roleplay be an asshole to your
>allies. Which really is fine, but if think about it, if
>people are going to put up with someone who is an asshole they
>had better bring something to the table to make up for the
>attitude. You #### on their morale and what did you give in
>return or do to try and build them back up as better
>soldiers?

Actually I wasn't that big of an asshole. If ya read the other logs, I basically called people out for horrible tactics and being all around stupid but I was never an asshole about it. It wasn't nice though.

>Play a low profile goodie who actually teaches without being
>an asshole. Balrahd has done it with several characters and
>been successful (I feel like I am proof of this and I have
>seen him manage well with others). That would impress me
>anyway. Not this a character that, in your own words, was
>based around "good is dumb". Build on the potential you see.

Trust me, I tried. I had a long conversation with Inaerian once about how not to spam "heal heal" in combat while getting bashed by an orc. I basically got the return of "you shouldn't talk that way to a hero of the guild", as if his 25 levels made him better. Some people just can't learn.

>You played one character, not even to hero, and deleted the
>first time you got butthurt over being criticized (If you are
>going to dish it out, be able to take it). You know there are
>people in the fort who suck at pk and from what you have shown
>us you didn't try to help make it better you just belittled
>people when they made mistakes. How does that help anyone?

Actually I deleted quite awhile after the "butthurt" session, and even got empowered fully and a virtue for it. What killed the experience was how the "goodie" side is plus the combination of the broken class and ability of it at hero. It's like killing with a defense/defense shifter, paladin marshals are about helping groups and not about being a solo badass. It wasn't fun.

Sorry, I saw your deletion and I saw the log you posted. And it seemed like a "See, I tried and it didn't work" post.

I still say you should give something else a try. You were basically playing a team golden aura with an attitude probably not far off from your evils. So you still haven't given it an honest try.

Try playing a humble, friendly, helpful (without the acid) goodie. I dare you.

...I'm playing something that can be a solo badass (not an uber-defensive group orientated paladin), I'll whore out in the midranks until I get the gear, and rush to hero so I can actually request stuff instead of get stuck in the low-mid 40s. And probably not a Fortress member so I can explore some Inferno since that's what I like doing.

Lately though I just haven't had the drive for any of it though. The low numbers has something to do with it but it's also just my desire - playing things that you normally don't find enjoyable is even harder than playing something you do know you like, like an evil char.

It's supposed to be a game, not always a learning experience We'll see.

I wouldn't disagree about the overall weaponry issue you highlight, but I do think a paladin is a better paladin in terms of rp when they aren't being tempted by the likes of Defiance.

Defiance is so intoxicating for most that it results in paladins who are willing to lead their groupmates to death repeatedly. I know I decided never to go for it again as Gerandiel after I got a groupmate killed on my first attempt to regain it.

Shield of light is similar in terms of what it can bring out of people, except that it is not risky to get if you know what you are doing so doesn't result in sacrificing groupmates for gear.

Just so it's clear, I'm very happy I was able to intervene at that moment when there's so many things you are doing that are against the paladin code and just the general spirit of being good. I watched you a little before and after that incident and didn't really see anything good or bad from you.

Moreover, the role you wrote even mentioned wondering whether your "arrogance was going too far/disruptive" (paraphrasing because I don't have it in front of me.) I took this to mean you were looking for some sort of spark for character development--which was half of the reason I was happy to be watching the incident to say something--but perhaps you just put that in your role to give you cover for being a ####.

As I wrote in your history, I think you played your role fine, but I don't think that's the sort of role that can make it in Fort for a long time without development.

...ya I was likely going to get removed or given the reigns to whip those newbies into shape, even Twist and I talked about it. Not sure where you think I broke the paladin code - the only thing maybe over the line was saying "fool" and not someone being foolish. If I went softer or harder over time would have to come from interaction like that but starting with "I'll uninduct you right now" doesn't really make me want to try honestly. If you had been harsh, I can handle that. Taunting me to get uninducted with the first comment....doesn't really bring out the "goodie" mentality you're asking for.

I'm not really sure who you are as an Immortal, but more and more I see you complaining about characters on their PBF and about players here also. You did it to Mekantos my buddy for one newbie channel ordeal and almost every PBF I've seen lately has some negative comment from you.

Not saying it's always wrong or warranted, you just seem to have that reputation of jumping in and slamming someone. Did ya see my conversations with Inaerian prior to this, or Nishka after this about the situation, or the rest of them?

Though I will say at least I didn't instantly recognize you the moment I interacted with you. In hindsight, I'm not surprised, however.

Just as an FYI...I've played a CHAMPION (not Marshal, btw), longer than (I believe) anyone. Yes, they have faults, but it would do your case a whole hell of a lot more good if you wouldn't go on to bitch about things that are wrong as often as you have things right.

There are thing I agree with, yes, but overall...it doesn't really help to comment on a class you haven't played through all the levels, and didn't even play for *50* hours.

>There are thing I agree with, yes, but overall...it doesn't
>really help to comment on a class you haven't played through
>all the levels, and didn't even play for *50* hours.

And I'm wrong where exactly? I played until high 40s so unless something magical happens at 51, I'm not seeing it (also had marshal high 90s). And the fact you didn't catch how broke "bat" was doesn't really speak well for you

If it matters, I used staffs almost all of the time.

But lots is wrong.

Your comment about bat is wrong, because it does involve hand to hand but also your weapon skill.

Fend does more than group evade with a chance to hit. Also there are factors that determine whether you land a hit.

Maneuver is reliable except in situations where it isn't. That is to say, not against people who have a legacy that makes them hard to move from the spot, like Zubei.

I agree that:
- there is a disparity between the available weapons. A lack of availability of no remove weaponry is the biggest disparity, since as you point out, most such weapons are not attainable except in extremely rare circumstances. You'd have to break the paladin code to get them the rest of the time.
- there is a lack of champion (and monk) edges
- champions are the weakest paladins in terms of power, but they can also land kills that no other paladin can, against the nastiest people. They are arguably the best paladins for exploration. They can also be good against groups in certain situations. However, their weak power probably creates an increasing differential between them and other paladins as other paladins will tend to get more reward for pk success because they have more pk success.

Some champion abilities scale with level. That means that they are less (but still) able to loiter at level 30ish where paladins are strong and rack up kills that way.

>But lots is wrong.
>
>Your comment about bat is wrong, because it does involve hand
>to hand but also your weapon skill.

When I'm hitting for MANGLES with a searing light staff on skeletons and I retaliate for an injure, ya, it's hand to hand.

>Fend does more than group evade with a chance to hit. Also
>there are factors that determine whether you land a hit.

Yeah it makes you more defensive, but I would think at 100% and level 47ish it should hit back *more* if you are fighting more than one person. One person? No real need. The whole concept is that you shine under distress, and I think it should account for that.

>Maneuver is reliable except in situations where it isn't.
>That is to say, not against people who have a legacy that
>makes them hard to move from the spot, like Zubei.

Yaa.....I'm not gonna agree here. I used it ranking quite a lot to try and push around dark arials, sword spiders, jujus and more and it hardly ever worked. Not my cup of tea (never used it on Zubei). It seemed to work quite a lot less also when with other people compared to being solo.

>I agree that:
>- there is a disparity between the available weapons. A lack
>of availability of no remove weaponry is the biggest
>disparity, since as you point out, most such weapons are not
>attainable except in extremely rare circumstances. You'd have
>to break the paladin code to get them the rest of the time.
>- there is a lack of champion (and monk) edges
>- champions are the weakest paladins in terms of power, but
>they can also land kills that no other paladin can, against
>the nastiest people. They are arguably the best paladins
>for exploration. They can also be good against groups in
>certain situations. However, their weak power probably
>creates an increasing differential between them and other
>paladins as other paladins will tend to get more reward for pk
>success because they have more pk success.

I'd say for exploring a shield paladin would be better, considering the weapon/shield options (plane of electrified space!) and it just seemed to tank better unless I'm spamming feint, which means I'm not healing when a shield dedicated can. I also have beef with the comment about "killing the nastiest people" - unless you mean ganking someone with people and using marshal rally, I'm not seeing it. If they had cutoff, maybe but I'd take a sword spec for templar defense (especially the blind) and the super strike damage over a marshal for killing people anyday - hard or not.

>Some champion abilities scale with level. That means that
>they are less (but still) able to loiter at level 30ish where
>paladins are strong and rack up kills that way.

Unless you're talking about using pugil, they don't get anything really until 36 I think it is (which is marshal). 95% of the time it's wrath spam anyways, moreso for a very defensive paladin variant.

I don't have time to get in more depth at the moment, but I'm pretty sure you're making assumptions about each of those skills that isn't true (or misunderstanding what it's for, as appropriate).

-I cannot fathom how no one caught how broke "bat" was before I made this guy - I prayed twice and it's been on the bug board for probably 3 weeks now without even a peep. "Bat" uses your hand to hand damage and skill, not your weapon. So when you "retaliate" for a small injure it's kinda crap. I'm positive about this because it always did normal damage (instead of elemental types) and I perfected hand to hand spamming it. The whole idea is you get free hits and can spam the skill for more hits but when they do no damage it's kinda terrible. I'm not really sure if it stopped me being disarmed at all because I still got disarmed quite frequently by Hanord/Zubei/Vanquisher/etc. Please fix this.....

Personally, bat is a bit of an odd one sofar. As far as damage, I'm assuming that's exactly where they want it to be. I see it much more useful for the automatic part, than the usable part. In that, I'm moderately saddened that I haven't found much use for actively using it. However, the automatic part is amazingly helpful. Keep in mind, Hanord & Zubei have skills that let them disarm ridiculously often. Other than tactics, it's pretty handy.

-Even at 100%, fend rarely retaliated back which was disappointing. If you're fighting more than one it would be lucky to hit back to one of them. It's a group feint, just like evasion.

Fend's retaliation is based on skill AND level. It also impacts your defensive ability for multiple rounds after that. Consider that warriors get one-person feint, or H2H get group feint...are you going to grumble about a skill that can group feint, gives you a shot at damage, AND gives you improved defense otherwise?

-Manuever rarely worked for me and I think it has to do with strength of an elf being so low. I tried using it in pvp a few times and it never worked so I just kinda gave up using it.

Manuever's weird. I just plain couldn't get it to work at all until I got to the 90s-ish range. It wouldn't surprise me if it's size/str based as well. Once you get it rolling, it's relatively effective at doing what it's supposed to do. Unfortunately, I wouldn't mind if it did a LITTLE more. Everytime I ever used it, I'm lagged 2 rounds, and they just walk back and start an attack again.

-The actual skill marshal isn't bad. Rally is morale and a group haste for a set amount of rounds which was nice, phallanx is +defense for your groupmates and you can auto block for them, regroup is group retreat (really wish this had no lag), and forefront is group rescue. Forefront didn't seem to work to well, especially if you're not actually fighting (no auto-assist for example) - and I never saw redirect damage from it even though it should have more than once. Most skills only work if you are tanking so things like regroup can screw you if something happens wrong (since you only take the group with you if you're tanking everything, else you retreat yourself). All of it takes mana, all of it lasts a set amount of rounds (not hours). I wish it could be done outside of combat like a "stance" and wish it had some fixes but I generally liked it.

Marshal...I'm ready to stab people about. Phalanx is great, rally is a ridiculous amount of mana for something that doesn't want to work half the time, and when it does...gives you about 3-6 rnds. When they do work for you, it's amazing. Forefront I still liked as a beefed up rescue (no mana for this, remember), and regroup is a beefed up group retreat. I *HAVE* figured out where the flaw in regroup's logic is, so I know when I can and can't use it...but it would be nice if they get it fixed (I think I have it bug boarded...if not, I can post it yet if someone mentions it).

-Pugil boneshatter was like 10% chance as an elf so bleh, rather just wrath spam.

Oddly enough, you'd think elf=staff and storm=polearm, and I think that works great for both on defense. Offensively, I've almost found they do better with the other weapons. Crushing pugil fun w/ big str giants, and elves seem to like the reliability of slicing.

-No edges, no holy word (no open hand) or bless, no spiritual hammer (faith virtue), or a bunch of other perks....and I didn't think using demon-headed pendants was good for a paladin so you're basically screwed with a no-disarm staff. It really just needs to be finished first...which gets to my next point...

You complain about lack of edges and holy word...yet that's exactly a situation where edges (Sacred Word) would really be handy. You're wanting your cake and eating it too, there.

-Staff options for a non-hero goodie blow. Can't get justice, can't request dawn/light until hero, can't get eagle inscribed (or it's held by a mule tribunal), striking is halfway decent, walnut/yew are decent, and that's about it. Thornspiked isn't bad (but killing a druid as a paladin?) and oh there's one outside Yzekon I never got to go get but beyond that it's pretty rough. There's no awesome Bar'talon or Defiance option. Also people need to inform the hero paladins you can't request for other people - no matter how nice it is, it's in the helpfile for a reason.

Eh, there is such a huge gap between about 48-50, and all that great stuff you can get ONLY at hero. Otherwise, on the way up, it wasn't so bad. However, on the flip side, no-one USES staff/polearm. A unique avg 31 polearm's always in, I've rolled w/ avg 28 polearms since about lvl 40, and I've NEVER not had multiple avg 28 staffs w/ different damage types on hand after taking the effort.

-Squire powers blow so now I can sympathize with the Fortress people who complain about this. Seriously the power can come from super cheap potions and the paladin can cast both of them. Having the faith virtue skill "fast" made me hate this a bit more because if my flight fell I couldn't quaff a potion for a full day. Which meant no more fighting Zubei/Hanord with auto-trip.

Heh. I tend to agree. Though on the flipside...induction into Fortress can be almost ridiculously easy if you catch the leaders. Rather than assuming induction should get you the nice stuff, you almost have to walk into Fortress as if induction is your pledge, and 1-200 hours is the actual "Hey, I got inducted and powers". At least Squires have some cool powers to look forward to. Poor Scribes get the all-powerful...uh...succor & altruism. Hell, I'd be tempted to bribe Zulg to code something to keep track of how many Acolytes die BECAUSE of those two powers. Might even beat out various characters

- Anyways, it was rough. I leveled super quick, I had a virtue and empowerment (side note: silent prayer seems kinda pointless with Silent Tower gone...irony there I know)....but it just wasn't fun. I had like 4-5 mob deaths in the 40s, one at 23tnl which put me to 29.8k tnl and I really just lost interest. It felt more like a chore than anything and I couldn't swallow being on the goodie side...especially with a class made for groups. It was like herding cats. I know people are new, we were all there, but when the hero with double prayer bead, brilliance, thin silvers, etc asks me where yellow roots are from I wanted to cry inside. Oh well. Maybe I'm done with CF for now, we'll see.

As always...I really do have to express frustration about the fact that you're complaining about extra powers you get. Don't like not being able to quaff flight potions? Don't use fast in that situation. It's a choice, just like transmuters choose whether to use calcify or flight. Or invokers and shielding vs. barrier, etc. I do have to laugh about the simple problem of Champions though. A good-only, group-leader class. Great in theory, bad when trying to lead cats.

Bat has other effects. There's one that gives you an extra attack in the next round. There are others.

I just proved I am an idiot 5 minutes ago though so you might want to ignore me.

...the point is the damage though. It says "you swing with your staff" and you hit with your hands.

Bit like serpent strike then, would you say? But serpent strike is still using the weapon skill, even though it does not exploit a vulnerability.

Did you answer the wrong question?

He's saying bat sucks and that it checks hand to hand, not the weapon.

Fortress isn't rediculously easy to get into unless you know someone OOC. Everybody knows that.

You have to put up with interview ofter mind numbing interview with mind numbingly morally bankrupt or ambiguous people who ask the stupidest questions, and attack any answer you give.

Without a doubt, the two cabals with the toughest entry processes are Fortress and Scion. I'd say in that order because more people try for Fort than scion.

gr

...and still do, on occasion. That being giving up on something before it's truly had a chance.

Dupmasione, for instance, at 50 hours, was in worse shape than Nallos:

1. 0 pkwins
2. I can't remember if I was a hero yet, but I don't think so. If so, hadn't been for very long.
3. Cabal Imm who really didn't like me (for RP reasons - sphere Purity Baerinika isn't going to like dirty-minded paladin).
4. HUGELY undefeatable opponents (Ahtieli and Gzurweeg).

Yet I stuck it out and ended up doing well with the character.

That's not to say Nallos would've turned out well. I've done the same as you several times. Yalthulic, my last Fortress char, was maybe 75-100 hours (not sure) but I certainly didn't play him long enough to get a feel for him. And we're talking giant sword-spec here....you'd think I wouldn't NEED time to get a feel. But I sure did.

I can't blame you for deleting though - if it isn't fun, it isn't fun, and that's that.

As for the char itself, our interactions were pretty good. I'm a pretty easy mark for empowerment and first virtue (ask Erothaylius). Second virtue would've been tougher - you'd probably have had to start fitting in with Fortress and leading by example and all that - but for full empowerment and first virt I didn't require a whole lot.

As for our talks, remember that in the first one I told you that going Fortress and being sphere Honesty may lead to a conflict - on one hand I knew you were going to be (essentially) an abrasive ass, but Twist doesn't care about that, so long as you're Honest and killin' them deceivers.

But as I put it to you, I (and sphere Honesty) was merely a conduit to the powers of Goodness for you. So if the Gods who oversaw that "pool of power" decided they didn't like how you were behaving, they could've depowered you.

In our second talk I tried to make it clear that what you went through was a result of the path of Honesty and of Goodness not necessarily being parallel.

In the end, I think it's very possible to do Honesty Paladin and not come across like a jerk. That wasn't the role you wanted to do, and that's cool, but I do think it's possible.

Good luck with the next.