Mon Mar 15 01:32:07 2010

At 4 o'clock AM, Day of Deception, 23rd of the Month of the Spring
on the Theran calendar Sothis perished, never to return.

I felt poorly for you. You had to face the horrid numbers we all did with a disgustingly poor class/race combo. You'd have to be a Mek, daurwyn, or better still a Daevryn (can you try dark-elf necro Nep? =D) to pull that one off properly. To be honest my char liked your degree of knowledge of secrets, but didn't like how you were ineffectual in PK and (later on) started complaining about the odds. I wouldn't blame Ageryn for jumping you either, just as I wouldn't blame him from keeping as far from me as possible. It's all about matchups.

You're not going to get into Scion if you can't pull your weight in there. I'm sure leaders might feel nice and induct an odd Mizheng (dark-elf ranger, eww) here and there, but that's not likely to happen. So you play a power combo with decent skills (human conjie, human/halfie invoker/necro etc) and make sure you can fight groups of 3 alone AND kill one or more, and send the rest running, before you worry about getting into Scion... Not to say you must do that, but doing that is a safe bet because even if you don't get in, you can still continue murdering everything in your path (which is a very good reason to convince Scion leaders to let you in). Alternatively you can know a lot of secret game knowledge. That helps a lot too.

The powers are insane, but you need to be able to pull off Scion-like feats of badassery before you -get- those powers.

Oh and be very, very patient. My char didn't get in for about a month? I just went on a PK spree while waiting. Always have something else to do if Plan A doesn't work out =)

I think support chars have a much easier time getting in too, considering the nature of the cabal. It doesn't exactly overflow with healer types (transmuters don't count).

I both agree and disagree with you on this one.

Your position on what it takes to get into Scion is definitely accurate. Being a bad-ass certainly makes it easier, as does being able to regurgitate prep/quest info (any cabal leader who makes quest/prep info questions a major part of their is a douche bag, btw).

That said, my last Scion was inducted after simply being a decent pledge for a little while and going through a relatively painless interview.

It all depends on who is the leader at the time. Often times though, I think the easiest way to get into Scion is simply to A) do your job as a pledge correctly, and B) don't make yourself seem like your character should automatically be inducted just because it's played by a player who has or had the chops to play Scion. Unlike real-life, past jobs have nothing to do with your (IC) qualifications for getting in a cabal, and it seems to irk plenty of leaders who someone comes to them as basically says, "Yo, Scion is how I roll. Let me in, dawg."

That's my humble two cents on the matter.

PS: Again, PK chops and all the requite skills and knowledge to have said PK chops are definitely necessary to play a Scion out, and most likely just to get in too.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to how frail and difficult it is to rank up a dark-elf necromancer. I would never try one, that's for sure.

The work you put into a weaker character shows that you have potential to take a stronger build and run faster, further, and harder with it. Do it. Come back with a nasty scion, be it a human necro, shifter, invoker, or even a bard.

I think you'll like the results.

Best two learning classes, IMHO

A Human Bard
A Human Assassin

Try one of them and you will get the hang of things quick.

Especially the way the new sleek system is set up now, you shouldn't play something right off the bat that relies heavily on those protections.

Would have been awesome if it was.

My take on a dark-elf necromancer was also one of my most challenging. However, I poured a lot more hours into it. You didn't even break 100. You hadn't hit any kind of stride. Anyway, most people wouldn't make it to 44 playing that combo, so good job on that I suppose.

Making it to 44 wasn't bad.

The irony is, there are scions who are close to, if not already in, his "group" range, which could have meant an easy breeze to spectre within a week or two at most, I'd guess.

I would look for you first in the Copeham Inn.

Galadon Cemetery, two steps in at the greeting prog mob. You usually didn't bother to go past that.

I'd follow you out the west gate, and then I would usually look for you in the vicinity of Hamsah. My assumption was that you took the route through Chessmasters, but I didn't bother to track you through there.

From there, wait two minutes and head to Arkham & then Barovia.

I watched you do this several times, but after I successfully assassinated you once I never bothered again because it seemed you were just learning the game.

Try to learn from each character you play, and then every character can be viewed as successful.

I hope you won't take this as me ragging on you (I'm the person you talked to about graveyards, for what it's worth) but I think this was just too difficult of a character for you to play at this stage of your CF career.

Necromancer is hard (generally poor defense, lots of built in enemies, relatively low value to most groups), dark-elf is harder (high XP penalty, lower HP, common vuln in exchange for some advantages you probably weren't prepared to get the mileage out of), and adding Scion app to the list is harder still (reduces your list of potential allies further, makes the list of your built-in enemies longer, and typically is one of the hardest cabals to get into especially if you're weak in PK).

I think if you gave the same thing another run in about another year of playing you'd do a lot better with it but I almost can't pick a more difficult character to play without intentionally trying to cripple yourself.

I did not post earlier as problem and I did not say I got ganked nonstop but thanks Valgrurnera for checking. The point is for 100 hours I had maybe five allies and nonstop enemies in who pk. Ageryn basically slaughtered me every time in 2 rounds. To get ganked by him when he has seven levels and another hero is fighting me is ridiculous to me. Every logon was 1hour at least to get zombies and dodging a list full of enemies to get ganked by more then one of them is just too much so you can have this place all to your ganging selves.


Ps 6 members of scion? Rofl. Good admin job there hard to figure why peole perma.

Are you really going to level a ganging charge at me for rescuing a fellow cabal member whom you were seconds away from killing? If you were playing a good-aligned fort guy, would you sit there and let Rorgoth die?

As for your deaths, at least one of them was semi-unavoidable since I caught you when you were already wounded. That's just bad luck; nothing you could do about it.

One piece of advice: you tended to be a little too consistent in where you spent your time. When you logged on, I could usually expect you to show up in Barovia before very long. I didn't camp there, but if I happened to be near Arkham and you were online then I'd usually go ahead and check.

Also, early on, one of the reasons I was gunning for you is the way our very first interaction went. You left Galadon heading west and I caught up to you near the entrance to the Ashes. I stabbed, and you did the right thing and immediately fled and teleported. Then you sent me a tell that went something like, "That was poorly executed."

That irritated me enough that I prioritized you over other people I might have spent time looking for.

if I saw you I USually survived but I can't keep flight up 24/7 and. You were always on in range with a 5+ level advantage and I bet you got half my deaths. I went to barovia because there are only so mny graveyards you can summon a storm giant too but that's a gameplay issue. Its ok enjoy your leet pk ratio you earned it with those epic kills on me. Final note you ganked me with two heroes caballed and I was an uncaballed rank 44. Quite the fun time? So yeah enjoy I won't post or play anymore there are other muds with way less ganging and or timesink.

>I can't keep flight up 24/7

Which is probably a good thing, since otherwise I'd have zero chance of killing you outside of a gang or a knife when you're convulsing.

>enjoy your leet pk ratio you earned it with those epic kills on me.

Nah. I die too often to have a "leet pk ratio".

>Final note you ganked me with two heroes caballed and I was an uncaballed rank 44.

If you're talking about that last fight, I think you died before the third guy got there.

You tell me: what would you consider the correct response to be in that situation? Let Rorgoth die?

You picked a 500 penalty character. If you're only fighting from 5 levels down you should pretty much consider yourself lucky and the fight fair.

Also, I thought we already established that you didn't get ganged a whole lot.

You picked a very difficult character to play, one that your skill level wasn't equal to. That's rough, but it's no reason to make wildly exaggerated statements.

What wildly exaggerated statmemt did I make? You are defending ageryn since you know the player and its obvious but whatever I'm done nothing to see here.

>What wildly exaggerated statmemt did I make?

Oh, I meant the one where you were complaining about all the ganging. People should be so lucky as to get ganged as little as you did by as small of gangs as you did.

Your 1.15 ganked-o-meter wasn't your problem; playing a difficult character and not being very good was your problem.

As long as you can't accept that a lot of the time you lose because of mistakes and choices you yourself made, you won't become very good at this or any other game.

>You are
>defending ageryn since you know the player and its obvious but
>whatever I'm done nothing to see here.

Because it's so much less likely that you're just wrong?

I never said I got ganked all the time I said that this particular gank made me not want to play. do you understand more now please just let it go we disagree ill play another mud bye.

And I highly doubt he knows who is playing Ageryn, because I think most people would give similar advice regardless of whether or not they knew Ageryn.

Essentially, just about every character has one or more Ageryns in their lifetime, in that they're dealing with a character who wants to kill their character, is a bad match-up for them, and is at least somewhat competent.

A lot of players people wouldn't even consider above average have been "that guy" to me at some point with some character.

Figuring out how to deal with that guy makes you a better player. Pitching a fit on the forums doesn't.

Edited to add: As usually seems to be the case, I've attempted to give someone I thought was all right some advice (in this case, "You picked a really hard character, pick something else and work up to that.") and ended up picking a fight. It's a damn good thing I'm not a teacher or an ambassador.

Probably make a good attorney though.

I don't think it was you. I didn't get that from what I read. The guy was already defensive and taking your constructive criticism as jabs.

Sothis, I would take a step back and try what he said. Throwing out wild accusations that he knows the character just makes you look like a jerk.

Come off the horse that you are on because its gonna bite you! Seriously...Daevryn isn't saying anything that isn't true. I know from personal experience that the times my character fought yours you were in agroups and I was alone. Daev is right in that you chose one of the absolute hardest class/race combos to play and you were also going for Scion. That is basically the tri-fecta of "kill me and do it often." Ageryn, wether you like him or not, is also playing a role and that is to hunt and destroy evil. He has talent...but you should have had ways t oget away. I think Daurwyn hit on something that you also should learn...be very cautious when playing a "weak character." As for graveyards and storm giants. Well...I think they made it simpler to get "storm giant" type zombies by putting the Loch in. There are multiple graveyards you can summon those to.

Last thing...if you want to leave and you think that is the best way...then go ahead, we won't stop you. If you want to get good at this game and whoop some butt, then try again but do something a bit simpler. I've tried other muds...and they suck compared to CF. Unless you like froofroo sitting around talking with no real risk. If that is your cup of tea, then I guess you shouldn't have come to CF, but CF is much better for risk/reward and accomplishment, IMO.

Seriously, it's more important not to be predictable than it is to get optimal zombies, because predictability will enable people to get the jump on you WAY more. Put it this way -- I don't think I ever summoned storm giants to Barovia if I thought someone might be able to surprise me there.

There are graveyards all over Thera, and at least 2 (possibly 4?) areas on that continent to which you can summon elite storms etc.

However, sometimes it is better to go for slightly weaker zombies you summon on the mainland such as war-weary storm giants (or make in Organia -- bearing in mind that people can often work out if you are in Organia and surprise you there). The mainland has some really obscure graveyards (often just a single room in an otherwise un-graveyard like region).

I suspect that since the Hardan Woods went in it may even be feasible to make reasonable zombies on the Seantryn continent.

Now I've talked about graveyards because I'm assuming you like to use wall of putrid flesh, gravewalker edge, or the damage/maladict spell that only works in graveyards. However, it is perfectly feasible to just get one or two moderate zombies from the mainland, and then use those to help you kill a storm giant away from a graveyard (e.g. the villages southeast of Arkham).

You'd enjoy it way more.

a) You are WAY better at surviving gangs (because you know a fair number of weapons and have good defenses, provided you gear to ensure that maladiction won't immediately affect you -- because you have str/dex in excess of your normal maximum to compensate)
b) You are WAY better at avoiding gangs -- assuming that you perfect hide and sneak and remember that thieves/duergar can see you in civilised terrain and certain wild terrains, and rangers can see you in almost all wild terrains.
c) You don't spend time summoning zombies (although you do spend time stalking and then having people just walk off or quit out).
d) You have a wider variety of pk options to choose from.
e) You pick your fights, so you are normally the guy surprising the enemy, and not the other way around
f) You can easily find groups since you tank well
g) You can still be decently effective even when regearing (bearing in mind you can make good use of the element of surprise).

There will still be the odd race/class combo that gives you trouble, but life will be a LOT more enjoyable for you than drow necro.

Worth mentioning that whilst drow assassin is viable, one of their limitations is their relatively low hp (although much better than drow necro). So being pincered by mithril axes will cause you serious damage. For that reason, I would success human, arial, or felar. Invokers will trouble the latter two, but as mentioned earlier, you can largely choose who you fight.

I recommend going human assassin for a number of factors. If yo ugo with a half breed you limit yourself to some really great gear. If you go felar you need to know where to get felar gear, but if you know that then these ca be very very good. (Lots of health and fast too.) Drow is rough and I don't recommend it unless you are very good with the class. Arial is great because of the tanking ability, but they are also fragile like the drow. The good thing about drow and arial is that you can use one practice per skill (arials should use two for assassinate) and save the rest to train hp.

I hope you start looking at these posts the way they are intended. people are trying to give you good advice to help you be a better player and you are making them into arguments. We aren't attacking you...we are trying to help. Daevryn is going to point out when you are being full of it though as well. If you think Ageryn is bad you should look at some logs and stuff about Ilitch. Ageryn doesn't full loot you after taking you down...such was not the case with some other thieves.

I went to barovia because there are only so mny graveyards you can summon a storm giant too but that's a gameplay issue.

If your enemies keep mauling you because you're sitting in Barovia spending a huge amount of time trying to make zombies out of elite storm giants... do something else, kill something else, go somewhere else. Explore new areas for yourself. Don't assume that storm giants are an optimal choice for zombies and nothing else will work.

Blaming the other guy for finding you because you were being incredibly predictable is missing the point.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I had a dark elf necromancer in Scion back in the day (didn't know any barrier locations I could get myself) and I can attest that it is a very hard class/race to play. I actually rolled up a thief with gag after playing it, so I could hopefully keep people from calling in help after I got them sleeping. That wasn't the easiest to play either.

I think you'll get more enjoyment from an assassin or ranger where you can pick your fights better, are less squishy, and have some options for killing people more directly.

As for the ganking, it helps to think of the conflicts in the game as a war and not a sport. Sure, some players like to be good sports but that's a pleasant exception to the expected norm.

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

having played 2 dark-elf necros to spectre (Paramox and Zakatholef), they can hold their own, but they definitely play differently to a human necro, in terms of you need to be WAY more alert to your enemies before you engage them. e.g. What are their specs, do they wield mithril, do they always use the same tactics (and can you do anything to mitigate them).

I hope you don't find this patronising, but here goes...

Personally I found drow necro could indeed mix it (carefully) with the heroes when in the mid/low 40s, but you need to be extremely paranoid. ALWAYS assume there's a thief around if you are walking around within or between cities. Don't go and rank in an area where you could be thief-ambushed if there's a thief/assassin around, or ranger ambushed if there's a ranger around. NEVER walk out of your guild without flying (because if you get tripped on leaving, fleeing will be hard, and word of recall may not be reliable), plus there's a fair chance you've spammed a direction a little. And always consider that if you get someone slept, the cavalry are almost certainly on their way. There's a good chance they'd have set off as soon as you were spotted by your intended victim. That means you don't always slap on all the spells you have before attacking. Sometimes you go with fewer spells for a less certain but quicker kill (to avoid being interrupted). Bear in mind that help may be from out of pk, so you might want to slap on curse as a priority in order to avoid the out of pk person wording the victim. Sometimes you can use summon to prevent the help reaching your victim. Sometimes not. Generally it means you need to keep aware of who is logged on.

Regarding the odds you face... seriously, you shouldn't apply for scion if you don't like 2 v 1, because in scion, you get uber-nice powers but you'll often face bigger gangs, of tougher foes (because if you never defend, you'll be booted). Tougher foes because in normal pk you could avoid them, whereas when they are raiding, it's harder to justify (which is not to say it can never be justified). Those extra powers will help a lot in general pk, but you'll probably die much more to "unfair" odds. (This is true of cabals in general, but probably moreso for scion than any other cabal.)

As far as 6 scions go, scion is meant to be a small cabal, for those who like playing the outnumbered guy. If you don't like that, don't apply for scion. As far as 6 allies goes, that's probably more than any of the existing scions have (except maybe their healer).

Everything about your first post said, to me, that you wanted scion powers but had -no- understanding of what you'd be up against if you got them.

Bearing in mind the small nature of the cabal, now bear in mind that you are probably looking at 16 applicants for 1 or 2 places. Those applicants will be trying to persuade the powers that be that they are more worthy than the others. Can you think of what you did to achieve this? Do you genuinely believe it probably came close to what others did?

I'm not talking raw pk success here (although some pk ability counts given the cabal has low membership and therefore pays a high price in overall ability to fight their enemies if they induct someone weak in pk). I'm talking:
- did you write to the cabal about yourself
- did you pledge
- did you turn up to help when the cabal was being raided
- did you contact scions to see if they wanted help retrieving
- was your rp consistent with what scions are about? There's a great deal of flexibility, but equally there is something that binds scions together (besides the prophesy).

On the other hand, did you ever do anything that would reflect badly on you (from a scion's point of view), if you were caught? If you did, there's a significant chance that scions would have found out about it. You wouldn't necessarily be told about it. In which case, you go right down the list and have to work even harder. Pre-purge, I know certain people were trying to get into the cabal where it was already decided they would not (e.g. because they were anathema'd imperials just looking for a new home), but the cabal was sworn to secrecy so that we could manipulate them as a tool.

Also remember you are complaining about being a 500 exp character dealing with pairs of enemies from 7 levels down. Pretty much any anti-paladin has a bigger exp penalty than that, coupled with (usually) more difficulty getting wands and gear from mobs (since zombies are great for that). Admittedly ap's have more alternatives to sleep than necros (which is not to say that necros don't have alternatives such as wither + zombie army, timed well), and can hit everyone in a group at once (without a wand or staff), but the fact is, they will be facing just as nasty odds as you.

Reality is, half of getting yourself into scion when the cabal has to be selective (i.e. almost all the time) is outlasting guys who delete because life is too tough.

He did pledge and spoke with some Scions. Those Scions thought he was a bit silly and incompetent but had a lot of "heart" and encouraged me to induct him as the team mascot.

I know that I inducted a couple of newbies as Victoria. But conversely, if what he described himself facing caused him to lose heart, what he'd face as a scion could (not guaranteed, but not unlikely) cause him to lose it even faster. Certainly one thing I kept in mind when playing drow necros is "It can only get easier as I rank" -- smaller number of people in pk, and less of a level difference. Sure, you may get ripped up whilst ranking, but every rank you manage makes a difference.

A level 44 drow necro that can pick his fights (in theory), is going to die a lot less than one who can be attracted to the cabal by a raid, then dispelled by a mage and tripped by warriors/thieves (or some similarly nasty fate). The latter isn't going to be saved by 300 extra hp and a nightwalker.

One major point is that gangs are generally, by definition, walking around together. That means that they are not too hard for a d-n to avoid whilst looking for solitary prey. Unfortunately, when you participate in raids you come up against the gangs all the time.

mascot lol aren't you cute with the backhanded insult. sorry not biting enjoy your game stop insulting me?

I wish I had a copy of that recommendation note handy, but I believe the word mascot was actually used.

Not necessarily an insult to be called a mascot. My scion bard sort of was for a while just cause I played her a lot and so was usually around to help other scions. Didn't mean I could pk for crap and almost nobody was scared of her when they were alone against her. But she her job making the other scions tougher for the countless enemies they have. Team spirit goes a long way.

My suggestion would be to try a neutral human bard. You'll get lots of group offers so ranking will be easy, no real foes on basis of race/class so until you pledge you're pretty free, a moderate but not high xp penalty, and a chance to really learn the basics. And then you can fiend everyone at 45 and listen to them tell you how overpowered it is.

Don't let a tough go of it with a difficult character design stop you from having fun if you enjoy mudding now and again. The fields does have a lot to offer when you take it as the game it is, and most people here are genuinely trying to help you out with suggestions.

Heh.

What can you do.