Sat Oct 3 14:36:50 2009

At 7 o'clock AM, Day of Freedom, 18th of the Month of the Battle
on the Theran calendar Artenno perished, never to return.

Artenno was an excellent character. However the time his lieutenants tickled me struck me as a bit of out of character for an evil priest.

(:

I was always trying to get them to do something out of character to show their mutiny tendencies. And yes, Artenno was not as evil as he should have been.

... as I said before, I followed a well established (since Nidblot at least, I did not play the game before Nidblot) precedent. There is obviously room to disagree here, it was a grey area flag. (I was requested an explanation and I provided it.) As to the suggestion that I acted inappropriately as a Tribunal, that's below the belt. I always put the Spire before a lot of things and wanted to make sure beyond that... that the game was fun for everyone. I'm quite confident I did not fail in that.

Like I mentioned before, if I ever play a Tribunal again, I will make sure I get some divine clarity on this issue. That said, I'll be staying away from Tribunal for some time. I find that it is generally a very disliked cabal and it's quite an uphill road even with a character built around charisma.

I've always enjoyed intellectual discussions about application of this law or that law to this or that situation, but some of the discussion on this thread is just a bit too personal (not directed at me... but that's the vibe among others).

Cheers!

This is your legacy!

At least you will be remembered as having an impact on some level.

Alta

xoxo

Long goodbyes appear out of style nowadays, but I had too much invested into this character not to post something long and salty!

The idea and inspiration for Artenno came some time during Vythigor’s later years. I really enjoyed playing a healer {healer – check} but wanted a bit more flexibility (more than a neutral healer allowed) to play something a bit more selfish. (Vythigor came under significant pressure by Arrna and Zaknifal for supporting evils, so I figured I would try something evil {evil – check}!) I had a few interactions with Neltouda’s followers as Vythigor and really enjoyed them all, so following Neltouda became very appealing. (Not to take anything away from the Salty Captain, but in many ways it is the followers that make up the religion, and, Neltouda, you had some great followers during Vythigor years {Neltouda – check}.) Then came a role of greedy corsair who needed the cities to store his treasure. The idea was to play a seductive suave evil, unrestricted by morality, but at the same time not an evil torturing bastard {role – check}. I also wanted to play in Tribunal under Adeglicfh whom I really enjoyed as Vythigor, so I thought I’d give Tribunal another shot {Tribunal – check}. (Artenno applied to Tribunal right after Vythigor age-died, thus avoiding any leader/applicant conflict of interest.) Then came the difficult decision of race choice. I really enjoyed half-drow on Vythigor (great stats, 5 pracs/level) so I thought I’d give half-elf a shot this time around {race-check}. (Dark-elf was a close second, but I thought that I would have to be a lot more evil as a drow than I wanted to be.) The character idea was complete!

EVIL HEALERS: 1-50: I found myself tanking most of the time, thus I did not find healing for 2/3rd power on others a big limitation. I also made wide use of dark pact and, though I initially thought people would complain about the side effects, it turned out to be a lot nicer than anticipated. Also, being able to dark pact the outer guardian and the inner guardian made things quite easy in raiding situations. (I can only imagine how much better imperial healers are with black channel and black sanctuary.) 51: The biggest drawback to playing an evil healer was lack of allies to go explore. Most evils are PK-oriented characters, so Artenno got a fair share of PKing and, relatively speaking, a lot less explore/hang out opportunities than Vythigor. Those were missed. (One aside, I am a sucker for other players who play orcs. Orcs are just such underdogs that I find myself helping them as much as I can. If I have one self-criticism of Artenno (and I have more than one!) it was his affinity for orcs even though they were unlawful bastards. That said, and all that aside, I do think evil healers need a slight offensive boost. Maybe a malediction of some sort, maybe a demonfire-esque supplication, something. But then, I’m biased and implementors see a much bigger picture than I do.

LOOTING: I definitely got a fair share of full loots as Artenno (10-15 items of value taken). Most of the painful PK deaths were to groups of 3-4. The days of Loz et al were tough. That said I don’t blame others for bringing many people to take out a healer. One on one, most folks cannot take down a healer. That said, getting lagged from 1000hp to 0 was quite frustrating. And it happened a lot (in many cases with sanc/prot, fly, protective shield up). Grrr… cranial. On the flip side of this, Artenno was also more aggressive about looting and if certain items were needed, he took them without remorse. The two times I took more than five items from a character’s corpse (Lilorni and Zephloyd) were the result of those characters full looting me before. I was only taking back what once belonged to me.

TRIBUNAL: Tribunal has been an underdog cabal for quite some time now. I do hope that some of the more experienced players will roll some Tribunal and start kicking butt. I can see how playing a Tribunal can get boring, but I refuse to buy the argument that you run out of enemies as a Tribunal. Marcatis is a great silent force in Tribunal that often guides its members in subtle ways, so I know it’s getting appropriate immortal attention. (Perhaps some more public guidance would appeal to the playerbase? Executioner interactions, etc.? I don’t know, it’s hard to tell why people are not flocking to Tribunal as much as they should.) I do think it takes too long to make Vindicator/Justiciar. If a character is doing well, I would consider speed-tracking the Vindicator path. Perhaps Justiciar is different. I think Vindicator should be treated as Maran. If a character is deserving, give it to that character!

IMMORTALS:

Neltouda: Thank you so much for the wonderful interactions. You pour heart and soul into RP and CF and I was incredibly grateful for that. Thank you for “vessas arc”. Thank you for the tattoo. But most importantly, thank you for all the fun times. You made me think, strive to RP better and challenged me in many ways. I hope I made it fun for you as well. I will be back as a follower one day.

Mergulla: *shiver* Amazing interactions. When you bit off my leg (by the way, people, never ever ever ever take that flaw – gimpy), I was very discouraged, but then I embraced it and ran with it and you were great. Your shrine is very well designed and I can only imagine how difficult it is to RP Mergulla. You do it very well!

Marcatis: You know how much respect I have for you, silent vigilant elflord! Thank you for the opportunity to lead once again. I hope I did not let you down.

TRIBUNAL (again):

Adeglicfh: Our interactions were certainly different than Vythigor-Adeg interactions but they were fun nonetheless. I hope to see you more as the Cheater of Death in the Spire, watching over everyone!

Oethipius: It was an honor serving under you as a Provost. You should have stuck it out longer. I was really looking forward to the good-evil tension.

Valkyneth: Good work bringing quality into Tribunal. Keep on trucking.

Solidor: Quality character. Be more ambitious!

Mizze: Another great character! Sorry I never got to promote you to Provincial, hopefully it happens soon. You are certainly deserving of it.

Other Tribs: Thank you all for the interactions, I enjoyed working with you as a Magistrate, Provincial and the Provost.

OUTLANDERS:

Quird: A complete powerhouse. I loved and hated you at the same time. You wiped the floor with Tribunal. Great work, keep on trucking. I took the shieldspinner edge specifically to be more effective against you.

Sulye: Very sly character. Very effective. Great fights.

Tangni: Saw less of you than Quird and Sulye, but liked what I saw.

Duarte: I cannot believe you autoed, very classy and well played character.

Hakdu: Another powerhouse. Thanks for being classy.

Loz: I took three edges specifically so I can be more effective against you.

Other Outlanders: I liked MOST of you. Ah, what the heck, I did like all of you!

FORTRESS:

Arrna: I liked seducing/taunting/teasing you. Well RP’ed, great leader. Thanks for everything.

EMPIRE:

Tarleton: Your offer of the position of the High Priest was very tempting and it would have been very interesting had I taken it. You are a great Emperor, keep on trucking.

Ahtieli: I admired you as Vythigor. I admired you as Artenno. Great work.

Warmasters/Blades: Thanks for running around and exploring with me.

Talund: Was fun comparing notes with you.

Obsoab: Heard good things of you, never got a chance to hang out with you.

SCIONS:

Lornis: Enjoyed when we were friends. Feared you when we were enemies.

Bambizlo/Zatale/Drakon: Your characters are powerhouses. You need to make a long-lasting character. Three months at least!

Frismund: Didn’t get to do much with you, but our chats were nice.

Dristrui: Fun to see growth. It seems you learned a ton as this character. Keep on trucking.

Llezzig: Was looking forward to another evil healer being always present, too bad the orc horde dwindled.

NEXUNS:

Biklaha: Great character. You make a big difference in cabal wars, I hope you recognize that and get enough credit for it.

Cabnil: Liked you!

Other Nexuns: I generally dislike Nexus. Not sure why. I am going to play a Nexun one of these days to understand you better.

VILLAGERS:

Didn’t see many of you. The few that I saw over level 40 were great. The few that I saw in their 30s, were not so great, but then I only saw a small side of your RP. Jip, I’m sorry about your things. I tried to protect them from looters by having my guard loot them, but then my guard got turned by an outlander and your things got destroyed. I hope you found the few items I got for you satisfactory to get you going again.

OTHERS:

Victacar: I wish I could make it happen, bud. I really do!

Belzur: Really could have used an active powerhouse shift in the Spire!

Rochefort: Liked your character and I also liked that you had a strong niche. Side-switching rubbed me a bit of a wrong way, but a neutral is a neutral!

Faeghn: Hoped to interact with you more.

Edika: Thanks for all the gifts, I wish we got a chance to do more.

Durble: Hoped to interact with you more. I thought you played a very successful thief.

Orcs: I am a sucker for you all. I wish I could help you more than I did. I was excited about Llezzig but he did not last long.

THERE ARE A MILLION PEOPLE I AM FORGETTING. Please respond and I will certainly write back.


Artenno was my second hero, I learned a ton. The reason for deleting really was that I feel like Artenno was getting a bit stale and I simply could not commit to the time required to be a leader. (Never be a dormant leader is a very important rule to make this a fun experience for everyone.) I experienced a lot more with Artenno than I did with Vythigor – ranging from PKing and RP to both sides of looting! I think if I make a healer again, it will not be an evil. Probably another neutral, but I’ll take a break from healers for a bit. I hope you enjoyed interacting with me and I hope my rule of “never be a douche” rubbed off on others. There were a few times I was thinking “man, I am going to get that guy back” but then I remembered a saying – “Why do we fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves back up!” Most people never took advantage of “I can spit into this guy’s face and he will continue smiling” attitude. Cheers! See you in the fields!

My interview was awesome. Thank you so much. I was trying to get in at rank 11, didn't happen. I was close, wasn't I?

I think it's easier to get to a leadership position in Tribunals than any other cabal. Not only are there more spaces, what you only need to do is make sure you aren't a bitchy character, RP a bit, and don't **** up by breaking trib law.

Just sit in the cities a bit, do your work, and you'll get up there. This said, I don't see as much immteraction compared to other cabals, but in Marcatis' defense, I think there isn't a lot a visible imm could do to add to the RP atmosphere anyways.

Liked you alot, though you never seem evil to me. Though that can be said about most of my evils as well I think. Other than that was pleasure having you at my side when balance was tipping other side. GLWYN

I must admit I wasn't expecting you to really remember some guy that randomly made a statue for you of your lady, but I'll tell you the behind the scene's of that situation. The tribunals had just defended against outlanders and I was currently grouped with Yanusyia, who fell to you all and you ended up with the elf's staff of wonders. I knew you had it and bartered it away from you with that nifty little statue I whipped up and then traded it to Yanusyia for Spirit breaker for myself. Also that trade was the scale tipper in that rematch with tribunal and outlander letting them to end up falling you shortly after I traded it back to Yanusyia. All in all, I really wish I hadn't lost interest in the char because of instances like that, because on the surface no one ever knew what kind of trades and bartering I was doing, and playing every cabal against one another. Still I liked you a lot from what I had seen you do from a long time ago when I was holding a hut and you demoted some annoying tribunal I had tricked into flyto/murder me in town when I was brawling like 3 or 4 people south of Galadon... or at least I think it was you. If it wasn't Still... keep up the quality chars because people like you help make cf a more enjoyable experience.

Thank you for the kind words. Yes, I did demote that guy back in the day. Of course I remember Thaltran, that statue was wonderful and though I knew the value of the staff of wonders, I thought it was worth it to trade it away. I would be hording a piece of gear and that was not my style. When I shortly fell to Yanusyia's cranial and Quird's clawing 1000hp to 0hp perma-leg shortly after, I kinda deserved it, so it was all good. Our interaction was quite fun with the statue, thank you very much for taking time to do it.

Forgot about me

I will say that the whole world grew a lot more dangerous when you were there to support them raiding, etc., and that I was usually pretty certain that if you were awake we'd be fighting for the fetish.

I'm still wondering what it was that you were saying you were going to give me at the end there, and thanks for the kind words too

Troll amulet

Loved to interact with you as Dargin and my current char and thanks for the gifts you gave me before deleting, hah

Really hope you return with something else, dont leave us!

I liked your RP. I am going to take a break from Tribunal for some time.

I really enjoyed watching Artenno grow. Real early I didn't like you much, and neither did Arrna. But you grew on me and in the end, I really enjoyed talking with you! Arrna of course, still disliked you. heh

Kickass char! Hope you come back with something awesome again when you have time.

I hope you did not find my offers of dark pact too obnoxious. I did like playing with the Fortress and seducing them.

From zatale to bambizlo I loved you, great job. We had a lot of fun together and I learned a lot, hope you did too. Good luck with your next hope to see you soon bro.

Bambizlo was such a powerhouse, you really should have stuck it out. We were certainly allies with Zatale and Drakon, we were NOT allies with Bambizlo, but I don't blame you! I think the Scion/Orc alliance is pretty awesome and scary! Great work on all your chars!

I could never figure that out.

Salty good job!

As a serial Tribunal player, I would have uninducted or busted you down for that. Provost or not.

Just curious as to the Justification. Not saying you were corrupt, but that was a Bad flag.

The origin of your flag goes back to the days of Nidblot. As you know, it is not against the law to retrieve and thus attack Magistrates at the Captain and obviously attack the Captain itself. In some cases, however, and Artenno came across quite a few of those, there were applicants and other cabal members who struck the Captain in assistance of Outlanders. This was clearly against the fourth law. In the past, and this was established by Nidblot, if no one has seen an attacker before or if no one knew the affiliation of attacker, a Magistrate was under a duty to ask the attacker to identify him/herself. Upon reasonable time and failure of identification, such attacker was marked for "assaulting the Spire not in retrieval".

No one on the cabal channel knew you. No one identified you as outlander. When I asked who you were, your response was "go fark yarself, lawman". When I asked other outlanders whether you were their cub, they did not say. I marked you. At no point did I feel that such flag was unjustified and in fact I had a discussion on cabal chat about similar situations and giving instructions as to what to do - i.e. mark upon failure to identify. To avoid this flag, you had to identify yourself as a treeman. From RP perspective if you refused, that's fine, but then an outlander should not be concerned over a flag.

Sorry if you felt that this was unfair, the above was my justification. I never got a chance to discuss this with Marcatis, perhaps one day I will and get a salty divine opinion on matter like this.

You misflagged a person.

Nepenthe Pointed out that Tribunals don't have to conduct investigations or gather witnesses in order to flag. But they needed to be right when they did.

As far back as I can remember, the center piece of Tribunal Law is that it's better to let a criminal go free rather than flag an innocent man.

I think what you did and the policy you describe are completly against what the Blood Tribunal stands for.

The Answer is to investigate. If you can't prove it, they go free. Absence of proof doesn't mean proof of absence

Thumbs down on that philosophy but otherwise you were fun to be around.

As a former Trib heroimm, and someone that's played several Trib leader characters, I think that if things went down like Artenno described it, he did just fine.

There's room to roleplay your opinion on the matter in the cabal as well, but I don't think the way he handled it makes him any worse of a Tribunal.

People get tossed for that.

It's just that black and white.

This is how I see it. I realize opinions may vary.

Is that you didn't say that you were, and decided to badmouth Artenno. Now, from an OOC wise stance, it was your stupidity for not saying that you were, and it is perfectly fine for him to warrant you because you aren't giving him a straightforward answer.

Let's say, though, that you said what you said because of an RP reason, as I would suppose. But if you really do "hate" the Spire and don't care for the laws, you shouldn't be getting pissed off because you are warranted. I see SO many outlanders get mad at being warranted for gray area things, and I don't see why they do when they shouldn't care.

That said, I probably would have told you I would warrant you if you didnt' give a straight answer, or I would have waited if the Captain was very weak till it fell and then warranted based on whether or not you were.

Either way, Artenno did everything right. If you forgot your house key and the door was locked so you were trying to get into your house through the front window and a policeman sees you and asks if it's your house, and you answer with "**** off, lawdog" do you think the policeman should give you the benefit of the doubt and leave?

Habada dee dum boo-bum dee be-bum dee bo
Ta hee skeet skat skoo skat ski dum dee-boo
Skiddley do dee do-bum dee bebeng dee bob
Skiddley di doo dum dee-be bum dee bum
Hrrop dewist dee be bom dee bo
Skeet an skat an skiddley di-do doo dum
Skiddly buddee dee didi dow

IC, Kaskin shouldn't care if he gets wanted. He shouldn't want to help the Tribunals with their investigation, even if it means he won't get wanted. IC, he did exactly what he should do.

OOC, Kaskin's player can be pissed that the Magistrate ####ed up. He can bring it up on the OOC death thread to discuss it. That's perfectly fine, and has nothing to do with his play of an Outlander.


Now, if Kaskin went on a rant about this IC that's another story. But just reading this thread, it sounds like people are pissed that Kaskin is upset about it here, not that he's upseta bout it in-game.


BTW, In the situation you gave, do you think you ultimately would be convicted of breaking and entering? You would be arrested I am sure, but would probably not ever do time. Because real life police have to investigate stuff too. They can't just follow hunches, and carry out executions based on it.
But then, real life examples are completely irrelevant anyways.

skit skat boo dop
bo dop bing do

You're right, it's black and white. Except it's black and white the other way. You're very wrong.

You are putting the cart before the horse, meaning, you are forgetting that the basic premise is it is illegal to attack the captain. Anyone who attacks the captain is breaking the law. So, the default is, if you attack the captain, you get flagged.

The powers that be have decided there is a very narrow exception, under very narrow circumstances, namely, IF you are an outlander, AND IF the tribunals have the fetish, then and only then, will they withhold flagging you (because you're breaking the law by attacking the captain) and let you do so without becoming a criminal.

Everyone is presumed to know the laws. Everyone knows the law is that if you attack the spire guard, you are breaking the law, and to do so will earn you a flag. You may elect to take advantage of the exception if all the requirements are met, but the obligation to inform the tribunals that you are doing so is yours. They already know all they need to know because the attack was made on the captain, and thus the law was broken. It's your job to inform them why they should withhold a properly placed flag, because you are claiming exception status. If you choose not to for whatever reason, that's up to you. But you've broken the law. You get a flag unless you identify yourself as eligible for the exception.

However narrow the exception is, it doesn't matter.

The dude did not break the law. Period. That's the fact that we're working with here. The dude was NOT a criminal.

There is no reason that dude should prove his own innocence, just the same as if he was (wrongly) accused of attacking someone in town. It isn't the suspects job to prove anything. It's the Magistrates.

Ultimately, it's the job of the Magistrate to flag people who are criminals, and NOT flag people who are not. And the Magistrate failed ath is job. He flagged someone who was NOT breaking the law.

Yes, he did break the law.

Show me in the laws where it says attacking the spire guardian is not a violation of the law?

It doesn't.

That's an internal tribunal rule, which says that while they are in fact breaking the law, they have a policy not to flag for it. It's up to the outlander to take advantage of that or not. It's like justifiable homicide. You killed someone and broke the law, but if you justify it with one of the legally accepted reasons, we (society) won't convict you. But if you go kill someone and don't say anything about why, they aren't going to assume it was self-defense. Fact #1 is that you killed someone, just like here you attacked the spire. Broke the law.

Per Help 26

4. Participating in an assault upon the Spire itself is considered a
criminal act. Specifically, this means striking at the Tribunal guardians or aiding others to do so is illegal, as is passing beyond the Tribunal outer guardians and into the Spire itself at any time. If you are standing at the entrance to the Spire without attempting to go beyond the guardian or harm members of the Spire, you may be warned to leave by a Magistrate, then you will be flagged if you remain beyond a reasonable time required to obey. The only time it is legal to assault Magistrates inside the Spire, or the outer guardian of the Blood Tribunal, is if the Tribunal holds your cabal's item of power.

How's that Last sentence strike ya Graatch?

That was totally unresponsive to his argument.

Gratch asked this: "Show me in the laws where it says attacking the spire guardian is not a violation of the law?"

And he responded with a copy/paste of the laws where it specifically states that attacking the spire guardian when they have your item is LEGAL.

Well, there you have it. I remembered it not saying that in the laws themselves. You're right. I stand corrected.

Like I said, Artenno was a great character and a possitive influence for the game. and the player's a good player and I'm glad we have him.

But because of the wording of the law I thought it important to ask this after he and I were both gone.

It's all good. Thanks for your input Graatch.

If I kill someone that broke into my house and tried to kill me first, I did NOT break the law. Nothing I did was at all illegal.

Aren't you a lawyer? It isn't a matter of breaking the law, but getting a pass. It's a matter of NOT breaking the law at all.

But real life law is irrelevent anyways. The laws in the game specifically state that it is LEGAL to attack the Spire guardian when they have your item. Not that you "get a pass" for it, but that it is entirely LEGAL to do so.

The guy that was flagged was doing something 100% legal. That's essentially no different than flagging him for buying pies from the baker.

And again, the burden of proof is not on the accused. In real life, or in Thera.

Marcatis has stated that he has no problem with it. Therefore, it's alright. The end. Your dumb analogies really serve no purpose, because this isn't the real world, this is a fantasy game. Here's one. How can battleragers use seaweed? It's magic! I mean, in real life, you couldn't breathe water just by eating some seaweed. But wait, you idiot! It's a physical affect, that's different! Well, why can't battleragers use armor of thorns preps then? It's a physical effect too!

BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE BATTLE IMM SAID, THAT'S WHY.

Do you think that Marcatis would have let all this misflagging go on for so long if it wasn't acceptable and valid Tribunal procedure? Either you think Marcatis is inattentive or a moron (which, if you have played a Tribunal, you would know is definitely not the case) or you are just arguing for the sake of argument. Surprisingly enough, CF doesn't always work the way YOU want it to, or think it should.

And considering it's not widely(Or wasn't widely known) to the player base I can see how it could go on undetected for some time.

You used some comparissions that aren analogous to Java's points.

Java doesn't really fit into the Moron category.

Right he fits into the ####ing moron category.

I didn't bring up real life. Graatch did.

I even specifically said that real life law was irrelevent. Please try to read the post, before you flame them.

I don't really know what Marcatis's opinion is. All I'm doing is reading the Laws as per the helpfile and applying them verbatim to the situation.

If Marcatis thinks this is acceptable, fine. But I think he's wrong. Either way, he has not chimed in on this thread, so you telling me Marcatis thinks it's ok doesn't really make it so.

First, a self-defense claim is an affirmative defense. Meaning that the defendant asserts that defense in response to an allegation of criminal conduct on his part. So it is inaccurate to say you haven't committed any crime in your hypothetical, you would just have an affirmative defense that might excuse your actions.

Second, there are instances where self-defense wouldn't apply even if someone who broke into your house and tried to kill you. Some jurisdictions allow the use of deadly force (even in self-defense) in instances where you had no opportunity to escape or retreat. So if you could have simply fled out the back door, but instead shot the guy dead you could still be guilty of a crime. Similarly there would have had to actually be a viable threat to you (or possibly to family or home). So if the slightly retarded and mostly crippled fellow from down the street broke in and attempted to stab you with a crayon, you probably wouldn't be justified in beating him to death with a shovel.

Also, in nearly every single state if the police show up and find you standing over a dead guy in your living room, smoking gun in hand, and you refuse to say anything or tell them to go #### themselves you will certainly be arrested. If you continue to say nothing during your trial, you will almost certainly be convicted. The burden is on the prosecution to show you committed the crime, not to offer up explanations as to how you might not have committed the crime or how you might have acted legally. That's why the prosecution has a duty to hand over exculpatory evidence to the defense, but no obligation to present such evidence to the jury.

Just my opinion on the real life analogy. It always worries me when folks think a killing is always justified in some instance. The law is rarely black and white enough for something to always be the case. By that I mean that what you can be charged with and what defenses you have available will depend on the jurisdiction, relevant statutes, case law and the totality of the circumstances. Self-defense is genearlly available where one is threatened with violence and responds with an appropriate level of violence to alleviate that threat. Sometimes that will include the use of deadly force, but not always.

Waaaaaaah. I got a wanted flag.

That's some great outlander RP right there.

I wasn't bitching that I was flagged. I'm just pointing out that that's not a good policy to have.

"Thumbs down on that philosophy but otherwise you were fun to be around."

I hear you, man. I was continuing a precedent/tradition that was around for a while. If I ever make another Trib, I'll make sure to discuss this with Marcatis to get his views on this matter. I don't think I mis-flagged you, but there is obviously room for objective disagreement here. Cheers and I'm glad you had fun around Artenno!

And I wasn';t going to be an ass clown about you giving it to me. Though I was trying to make my point known as much as I could as an Outlander.

If Tribunal holds an item that is not their own, they shouldn't be able to flag unless it is blatantly obvious the attacker isn't of the item they are holding.

Remember, IC interaction requires Outlanders to be bitches towards Tribunal. But that doesn't mean they should get flagged for retrieving or assisting a retrieve in terms of applicant/or being in the cabal.

Noone should be forced to say he is Outlander so he isn't flagged. Which is kind of bleh b/c, to reiterate, the Outlander doesn't really care to talk to a Tribunal.

Now if the general consensus is anyone that strikes the outer if flagged, it's all good. Otherwise, Kaskin's right, Vythigor isn't retarded or he wouldn't be playing CF. But Vyth, you placed that flag knowing somebody is just trying to weaken the outer for someone to retrieve.

You're not wrong yet, but the IMM's need to set down a better overall Spire policy about it. Because remember, being WANTED, isn't just about not entering cities. The moment it just about cities, Spire can do whatever they want. Until then, it's ####.

It isn't up to a suspect to prove that they are NOT breaking the law. A suspect doesn't have to prove anything, ever. It falls on the Magistrate to prove whether they are a criminal. And if all you have is "He didn't specifically tell me he's innocent", then you don't have ####. Obviously an Outlander isn't going to help you do your job, whether or not it means they get away without a flag.

I'm having a difficult time figuring out from your posts below whether you were or were not actually an outlander at the time of the incident. Were you? Were you an applicant? Or just random ranger?

Enough that I had defended against Tribunals.

Art's litmus test was, "Are you an Outlander?"

If I said Yes, I wouldn't have been flagged. As an Outlander I flipped him the verbal Bird.

The problem with his logic is, if I HADN'T been an Outlander I ould have said yes and NOT been flagged when I was in violation.

But I was an Outlander retrieving.

As a player of several provosts now, I have to say I'd have
marked you and flipped you the bird straight back, except it
wouldn't have been verbal. Some things require a certain
amount of co-operation, even if it is semi ooc. You had a chance
and decided to ignore it. So be it. Off with their heads.

Ducktrainer.

What you describe isn't logical.

Should a magistrate getting vague reports of a crime in a city flag the only guy he sees walking through town because that person doesn't talk to him?

What if Kaskin HAD been an applicant and said he was a full blown Outlander? By Art's own words he would have let him go. Or, better yet, what if I was just some schmoe who decided to jump in on a retrieval and said I was an Outlander?

Another thing to consider, Outlanders typically avoid tking to Tribs. So their silence would seem to me to lean toward a "Yes" rather than a "No" simply because most guilds "Out" people who pose as one of their members. Even this isn't proof, just a bit of critical thought to add to the process.

This alone shows the policy to be unacceptablt fallable.

I liked Art having played with and against him but this flag was placed on an character who was acting lawfully.

Again, it's not a serious matter in an RL sense but it's one in the IC traditions and machinations.

>You misflagged a person.
>
>Nepenthe Pointed out that Tribunals don't have to conduct
>investigations or gather witnesses in order to flag. But they
>needed to be right when they did.

That's a little bit out of context, and it's not like a I'm a Tribunal imm, anyway.

But that being said? I totally support Artenno flagging Kaskin in this case and I don't consider it to be a genuine misflag.

Or write it down somewhere that Magistrates can make mistakes if they mean well.

You could just get over it. This is a game and people make mistakes. No one will even remember the character in a year. Much less one incident over the length of a character. Move on already.

You could read the argument and see that this has nothing really to do with Artenno but rather a policy that seems to contradict the written Law.

I wasn't talking about him.

If it's got nothing to do with Artenno at this point, quick hijacking the ####ing thread.

That is all.

Oh, and Artenno, I liked you. From both mort and imm perspective, great character.

G.

The reason the flag isn't that big of a deal is because the only person that was harmed by the flag was you, and you chose not to prevent yourself from being flagged when you didn't have to be.

There's no way to re-write the laws to account for all of the drama queens out there.

The law and tribunal procedures are written to contend with drama queens.

You would still find a way to cry and whine.

This means if he is an outlander and you marked him you would have given a false flag. To my understanding, tribunals avoid this like the plague. Having played multiple tribunals, I wouldn't mark anyone unless I was sure. This is a situation where you would need to be sure. Usually people dont strike the Spire without reason. Breaking your own laws is the worst thing you can do as a tribunal. It gets you kicked from the Cabal if it continues. Furthermore, you are forcing someone to explain themselves to you. Some such as an outlander dont give a #### enough about you to explain a word. And while you may know about this "unwritten law of false flagging" other players might not. This is where you would have to explain to them.

In short, you false flagged someone without explaining this policy to them (or atleast this is what I've gathered). I'm not convinced that it would be much better if you had explained it to him. But atleast it would have been acting more like a tribunal.

when an outlander complains about an unjust flag, they should get an exp loss.

Ysaolerye gave my villager who rped a lot, the mino, an xp loss, for returning gear I grapped to an enemy of the village because I was not following the laws/rules of battle. Wear foes amor, demoralize or something to the effect.

Point is, don't concern yourself over it. He only deserved a warning, if you complainged ingame you deserve some xp loss. Bitching is a worse offense than returning an overly looted person his gear.

Consideer youself lucky pal