Sat Jul 4 19:22:18 2009

At 12 o'clock AM, Day of Freedom, 4th of the Month of the Long Shadows
on the Theran calendar Tameron perished, never to return.

asf

I hope you're okay and didn't actually have some RL bad stuff happen.

If you were playing an alternate though...man, that's ####ty.

As far as I can tell, he wasn't. That'd be a big sign to nuke earlier than letting him auto.

I liked Tameron a lot. I think I said it best in my deletion when I said Tameron was the only one Dierj could have stomached as a leader. Anyway, I hope nothing bad happened and that life just got too busy for this play stuff. If you moved on and didn't bother to delete then ah...I wouldn't post anything as you will just get smacked.

Explain to me how people like you get leader all the damn time and then you #### up the cabal by never playing! Just ####in sad if you ask me. And Imms next time you give leader to someone and they stop showing just ####in boots their ass. I understand that sometimes real life things happen and stuff but come on man.

Answer: Auto'ing.

That's just sad.

~

Given he hasn't even touched his own battlefield thread, you think maybe, just maybe, there are some RL issues going on? Cut the guy some slack. For all we know he's in rehab or jail.

Smashtro said 'That's so sad'

I cosigned.


What rope have I tightened that requires slackening?

-----Abernyte

I took "that's so sad" to imply that you think the player is "at fault" here. "Sad" as in "lame" or "pathetic", not "sad" as "lamentable".

Is that it takes what, 3 weeks to auto delete or longer? Why didn't any of the Immortals see that the character wasn't logging in and remove them? My mind is telling me it could be one of a few reasons: Immortals didn't care, didn't have time, too lazy or didn't want to jump the gun.

I don't have anything invested in Scion, nor this character. But people create characters with a cabal in mind. And when you can't/don't get in, it's perplexing to the point of becoming unfun.

I think it's mostly no one else looked like they should be leader, at which point the imms are doing inductions on their own.

There was only what, like 7 people total in the cabal while Tameron was leader, leaving only 6 other possible candidates? If there were a more active leader, there'd be more cabal members and more active cabal members. Is that a catch-22?

Not to ding any of the apps. But there were 7 or so of us at the time for a reason. And it wasn't just because Tameron was a elusive leader.

~

One had plenty of recommendations in the cabal. He saw Khratetch twice in his life, from what I recall. Once when he was under level 15, and Khratetch told him he needed to be level 15, and once over a month later, when Khratetch promised to speak to him before logging off, then logged off, never to be seen again (by me).

Pre-vanishing point anyway. After that yah obviously no one got inducted.

We run into that sort of thing semi-often, and it becomes a question of whether to grant someone who probably shouldn't be leader, or do inductions ourselves. And then it's like "Ok I just inducted 3 guys, do I grant one of them a week later?"

What is the harm in giving someone that "isn't up to snuff" in leader material a shot at it if they seem to be interested?

I know there is an enourmous gap in what some players can be in the spot and the common players that made great leaders, but it also seems backwards thinking to leave a spot open waiting for one of those leader players to roll someone up to go and take the spot. Hell, for the sake of the game as a whole maybe look at it as a leadership training excercise to put someone in before they are ready and give them the chance to sink or swim....it can't hurt the cabal anymore than having a new leader auto-del could it? And that person that wasn't ready this time might be more ready next time, or they might even excel at it and be a pleasant surprise.

Ok, I'll grant you that there have been plenty of times that I've taken just such a chance on a person and been pleasantly surprised.

On the other hand what if the person isn't a great leader? Let's say they don't really like to RP or want to do induction interviews. Then they either duck apps or induct with zero RP, which people will bitch about both ways. Let's say maybe they don't show up for raids. People will bitch. Maybe the leader sucks at PK and gets their cabalmates killed. People will bitch about that too. Maybe the leader is kind of douchebaggy and just inducts all their OOC friends and they run around ganging on everyone like a pack of rabid russians. People REALLY bitch about that. (Just kidding, Ruskes, I love you guys!)

Yes, you can boot that bad leader. Often times damage is already done and it actually turns out to be more babysitting/headache/clean up than you had before if you'd just done imm inductions. The only downside is that a surprising # of players seem afraid to approach an imm for an induction. At least, this is a problem I run into in Fort when I decide to leave it leaderless for a little while.

AT the end of the day, you can't really win here. Maybe I'm a little jaded against all the bitching right now (surprise surprise) but there really is a lot more to it than "Just give anyone a chance."

I see where you are coming from, and agree that is is definately a lose-lose, but I see where the losing side of leaving it leaderless could be a more ideal route for imms since it can be less of a "cleanup on isle fortress" later.

I am probably one of those folks that are hesitant to approach imms, which may be why I think of it as more an issue with not having the mortal leader. I've always had cool experiences with imms, and enjoyed them, but in the case of fort am always hesistant since I want to give a good first impression to get maran'd later, so I don't want to come into that first intereaction looking like some dumbass.

And I know this is derailing Tameron's deletion thread unforgivably but Maran is like 80% PK and 20% not being a toolbox. Acolyte, on the other hand, is different. The only thing I really look for before I do an imm induction in Fortress is a few recs and at least one evil pk. If you come to me with zero pks I do give you a harder time. Otherwise I think I'm pretty easy.

>Yes, you can boot that bad leader. Often times damage is
>already done and it actually turns out to be more
>babysitting/headache/clean up than you had before if you'd
>just done imm inductions. The only downside is that a
>surprising # of players seem afraid to approach an imm for an
>induction. At least, this is a problem I run into in Fort
>when I decide to leave it leaderless for a little while.
>
>AT the end of the day, you can't really win here. Maybe I'm a
>little jaded against all the bitching right now (surprise
>surprise) but there really is a lot more to it than "Just give
>anyone a chance."

Hint-hint Baer:

If you assign a leader and then boot him for being sub-par later, this doesn't cause more bitching and headaches than just not assigning him. Instead it makes you look like you're on the ball.

It's not like you Anathema'd his ass, he's still in the cabal he's just not leader anymore.

And you can still do that 'You are my new sergeant until you die or someone better comes along.' Make them know you think they're a piece of #### and are getting the position out of just circumstance and they'll step it up.




Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

Isn't that like taking candy away from children?? I tried to do that once when I was younger and ended up with seven stitches in my head in return...I learned my lesson. Don't offer the candy in the first place!!

You're going to have to learn that you can do things as an evil IMM that you wouldn't as a goodie IMM. This happens to be one of them, if Baer would feel like a jackass doing this to a Marshall, Mergulla shouldn't care.

Besides, remember you're warning them 'If you suck like I think you will, I'm putting someone better in your place.'

I promise you they will do everything they think you want them to do, up to and including taking more risks and either be more and/or less discerning about inductions.

Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

I don't agree that you can do it particularly easily as an evil imm, because ultimately it impacts on someone's ooc game experience.

If, however, you are straight with them, say that you don't see them as leader material at this point, but that they are better than the others (all of which could be communicated ic), you can then ask them to take it on until you pick a leader.

If they turn out to be good, you can leave them in. If not, well, they knew it wasn't forever.

In a cabal like scion, it's worth making sure they don't induct too many people though, given the strength of scion powers.

Also, if you do give leader to someone that you suspect might not be up-to-snuff, and they turn out to actually not be up-to-snuff... then you as an imm have a ####ty decision: Leave crappy leader in place, or smack them down. And often ####ty leaders don't do a single big bad thing that makes them worthy of the boot, so you can't just bring down the wrath on them at an opportune moment. Rather they just consistently do little amounts of steady suck, and you have to pull them aside and essentially fire them, like the Bobs did in Office Space. Then you feel bad. And then people ask the player why they got smacked down, and they're like "Well, I'm not really sure, the Imm didn't say", and then other players are mad at you for how you handled it too. After that, smacking ensues on Dios that you can't respond to. Then you really feel bad. Then you eat a pint of ice cream by yourself at 10:30am on a Tuesday, and feel even worse. Next thing you know, we're talking sedatives and three-times-a-week court-mandated therapy appointments, all because you appointed some sub-par dude to leader.

And no one wants that.

Aarn

There will be no white flag above my door. - Dido

Well Mergulla is an evil goddess, and honestly I think one sentence can sum it up. 'Hey why did you remove me from leader' Because you are my bitch and you do as I say, you pathetically failed me so serve me and redeem yourself or wither away and die. At least that's what I think. But I guess with Her roleplay She doesn't hafta really do anything because she is the god of utter laziness and sloth. But if she is actually wishing to make it stronger risk will need to be taken and if they don't good nor bad can come from them.

IC you can justify that no problem.

OOC, a lot of players would hold a grudge about that forEVER.

(Which wouldn't stop me in that position, but some of the staff are less cavalier about pissing people off than I am.)

I just hate the fact of wanting to become a scion and I hafta say My rp isn't as leet as most but I'm still getting the whole rp thing down. Then there is the fact that baer said about being intemidated to approach an imm thats me. Especially when I tried to speak with one of my past chars and kinda got rejected. There are to many factors into talking with an Imm. Is the imm in a pissy mood today, are they going to be more willing to talk to me if I have only one or two roles, are they going to actually spend time talking to me and so forth. This is why I have yet to make an empowerment class cause there is a standard and if the standard isn't met you get shut down or so it's happened to me. And since there are different people behind the different imms and the imms have their own roles to fulfill it makes it even harder to know what they really and truely wanna see in a char.

Much like most companies do. Whether you explain it to them verbally upon appointment, or do it via interview pre-appointment, or make a posting on officials etc... This way when management is slacking, upper management can just point to the job description and the leader can't really argue or bitch. Just an idea.

I DO think that alot of players should be given opportunities to play a leader. I think in the long run it will make newer and/or less skilled players into better players with better RP. It will most likely improve their enjoyment of the game because they are playing a leader. I know I screwed up my first leader character. One of the imms (who is a great imm) was trying to push me in a certain direction for a quest and I didn't exactly follow. I got upset by it and deleted. Yeah, I was a little bitter about it at first. But, like I said, it was more my problem than anyone elses. Plus, I didn't have to delete. I could have worked to fix the problem I created. It did make me a better RPer in the long run and the next crack I got at a leader I felt like I did much better.