Tue Dec 18 01:14:21 2007

At 4 o'clock PM, Day of Deception, 30th of the Month of the Battle
on the Theran calendar Xhenod perished, never to return.

Well, I'll try to keep this brief - once again I really didn't think this character out before I started him. Just wanted your basic evil healer to explore and with the kind of lacking "evil" options, I picked Zulghinlour....with a non-Imperial non-chaotic evil healer with one of the busiest and supposedly hardest Immortals to get empowerment from (from what people tell me). Not a bright move - I thought I had a pretty cool role idea (read HELP MINDFLAYER), but it just never really panned out. After 127 hours of not having full empowerment, a trail of bad communication with Zulghinlour of either silence or "don't like you"...just kind of lost heart near the end.

Healers in general are pretty lame when it comes to actual healing, especially non-Imperial evil healers without dark pact, but even in comparison to bards it's pretty bad. I had 1800 mana, +40% mana regeneration in items and permanent slow with maxed trance/meditation and I didn't come anywhere *close* to the healing of Lauriel or other bards....especially in just pure lasting ability. I'd run out a LOT faster, which is pretty sad. Not sure if evil bards are affected by the evil-heal-nerf either. They are useful for the cures and obviously sanctuary, but even if I had mass heal I wouldn't get anywhere near their ability to just heal damage (maybe directed heals with rejuv/dark-pact but I'd run out a lot faster still and most explore places need mass heals). Not to mention bards are not completely boring/useless alone and have a lot of nice buffs. Healer edges are kind of boring as well, looking over the list in general I could only see two-three total really worth it for exploring - there's not even an edge on rejuvenate/sanctuary. Not really trying to bash the class, but I wouldn't recommend it - especially with empowerment involved. It'd be really nice if healers could remove fear as well, considering the only things against it are one rare race, a few very rare items, and a shaman power (and it's all over Hell).

The Hell trips were fun, got to learn a lot I've never done before - I tried to make it so every trip just wasn't a race and I'd "stop to smell the roses" - also took a few non-optimal groups, but still had fun and hopefully I made a positive impact on others. Killed two archdevils, fought two more (and learned what to bring against them) and got to learn quite a bit......all with sanctuary and 30hp heals, which is a short miracle in itself (although anything of worth required a bard). Hope all those that attended enjoyed them...btw, sorry Maxwell about the last one.

So I learned my lessons around empowerment, needing to think characters out, what I'm capable of, etc. I learned not to send heroes to get gear for you at young levels (hence my post in the Ask an Imm forums) for stuff you clearly don't know, learned that empowerment patience probably isn't for me (least with how busy/hard Zulg is and my badly thought out idea), and that I truly hate people like Llorenz Lowest of lows, man....

Cheers,
Torak

Since hell is more or less a nono, and in any mass exploring they are sort of a nono for neutrals too, effectively all hell groups have suffered a 33% reduction in healing. But I think you got one thing wrong, and that's saying bards are straight up better than healers. Apples and oranges, healers get sanc and cures, and healing sleep. Bard might be better in terms of long lasting straight up healing conditionally, due to resting while singing, low mana cost and group heals. On the other hand, healers are better at giving quick bursts of healing for a single person. Remember, since you didn't have dark pact/rejuvenate like you said, it's impossible to really compare. I think the bottom line is, you need both a bard, and a healer for a serious hell trip. A bard can keep up with steady healing, while the healer bursts out rejuvenates when someone suddenly gets hurt.

Yeah but with shields, sanctuary, and anthem - "burst" is a bit rare and even if there is a burst (lose of one or something that cuts through it), usually it's rare enough that the endless singing will make up for it.

As I said they probably have better directed healing but I still don't think it'd help that much in general - most fights in the places where you need those big groups, the fights are long enough that longevity is usually a lot better. Not to mention that bards can heal mana - get 2 bards and they can heal indefinitely and keep invokers/shifters/etc in the fight. Healers can just keep the tank up in emergencies.

Still wish healers had a way to deal with fear.

It was fun. Thanks for the trip to Octagonal, I haven't been there in a long time.

Evil Healers are a bit better if you have dark pact/rejuvinate by the way.

>So I learned my lessons around empowerment, needing to think
>characters out, what I'm capable of, etc. I learned not to
>send heroes to get gear for you at young levels (hence my post
>in the Ask an Imm forums) for stuff you clearly don't know,
>learned that empowerment patience probably isn't for me (least
>with how busy/hard Zulg is and my badly thought out idea), and
>that I truly hate people like Llorenz Lowest of lows,
>man....


It wasn't so much sending heroes to get gear for you. Heck, you are an evil healer and I think the whole 'help me get clothes and get me to hero so I can take care of you' angle is perfectly valid. Giving the heroes a step by step walkthrough is not. But, that wasn't the only thing. At low level you openly advertised the fact that you know your way through hell. It's one thing to have ooc knowledge, it's another thing to openly advertise it in a way that can't be ic. I think that, more than anything, is why you didn't get the Zulg love for the character.

How would it be known if I was lying IC versus if I actually knew it? No one, and I mean *no one*, follows someone into Hell that doesn't know it back and forwards. I had countless conversations where I got quizzed from very prominent people to make sure I knew what I was doing. Even if I didn't know it, I would have said I did. A lot of parts I didn't know, and I also lied quite a bit to heroes on what I actually knew...good example was I knew nothing about Mephistopheles, but hey let's fight him! Some things were truth I told, some were not.....but then that can't gauge if I'm lying or not. I'll also admit that I did give some things away in exchange for gear which I shouldn't have in retrospect especially at a young level, which I won't do again.

If someone asked me about ST, which I know very little about, I would have lied through my teeth if I wanted to lead someone there.

At hero, sure. At level 36, umm...no. Nobody is saying that hell trips performed by hero range players isn't going to have knowledge on it from previous characters, but, when this comes out at level 36...You tell Ravon 'So I hear.....my knowledge of the Inferno is matched by none.' Well, that's blatantly ooc.

~

Your role started out really good. It became a little hard to follow, but, I have to believe that had more to do with the actions and not so much the role. I know you have it in you to do some good stuff.

Really, nice to hear that every once in awhile Never heard anything in a role contest about it so was wondering....but my current character is going a lot better than any previous ones, maybe it's a sign to come heh.

I've taken someone to hell and I don't know it.

We got... well, let's just say we didn't get far. But we tried. Ended up leaving as a result of making no progress in getting deeper.

...that I take people who don't know it and told some people some things I knew is so that more people get into it. I personally find it the most fun thing in CF, even though it's the most ruthless place

Well, maybe ST is more ruthless nowadays....

Ah it happens man, i was close to a title i've been trying to get for over a week, then i was like a kid stuck outside an arcade with no quarters...I COULD HEAR THE FUN! But unlike alot of people you gave me a chance to join in, and i appreciated that, hindsights 20/20 good luck on your next life, see you in the muck man!

Toodles.

Loved it too bad there's not much underwater to do for exploring.

Re: Your mindflayer role

Wasn't a fan. There is a reason I always called you human. Personally I don't like people who want to be <insert cool race here>, but it's not a race I can pick, so I'll just whip it into my role. I typically treat those folks as delusional. You can think you're an illithid all you want, but you're still just a human to me.

Re: You're interpretation of my religion

I struggled to see you having any real grasp of my religion, which is why I only empowered you to 30. I asked who you would lead, and basically got "everyone". I asked what your goals were and basically got "to do things nobody has done". That screams generic BS to me, so I waited to see what you had in mind. I snooped you a ton while I was doing code and would go back and read some conversations, and it was amusing how many people you talked to said the exact same thing. Sedos said it best "I am still not clear on what you say you will do."

Re: Hell trips

In the end, this was obviously a character you wanted to explore Hell with, and take whoever you could get to go. It was also fairly obvious, they weren't going to Hell because of you. I saw very little leadership from you in the trips, no matter how much you tried to get them to write notes to me, to all about your wonderful leadership.

Re: Impatience

You mention stopping to smell the roses on your Hell trips. I think that is the ONLY place you did that. I empowered you to 30 (when you were at level 18) and the next day you were level 35 and bitching about not being able to find me. The way I see it, you wrote a role for a hero healer, and that's it, and everything else was just "in the way". I wanted to see more from you, and I kept telling you as much.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>Re: Your mindflayer role
>
>Wasn't a fan. There is a reason I always called you human.
>Personally I don't like people who want to be <insert cool
>race here>, but it's not a race I can pick, so I'll just whip
>it into my role. I typically treat those folks as delusional.
> You can think you're an illithid all you want, but you're
>still just a human to me.

Well I thought it was unique and not something totally out there - I could easily see the illithid wanting to infiltrate human society. I never ate food (always sate/quench) and ate every brain I could. I figured you didn't like it though so I just let it go after awhile. So much for trying something different.

>Re: You're interpretation of my religion
>
>I struggled to see you having any real grasp of my religion,
>which is why I only empowered you to 30. I asked who you
>would lead, and basically got "everyone". I asked what your
>goals were and basically got "to do things nobody has done".
>That screams generic BS to me, so I waited to see what you had
>in mind. I snooped you a ton while I was doing code and would
>go back and read some conversations, and it was amusing how
>many people you talked to said the exact same thing. Sedos
>said it best "I am still not clear on what you say you will
>do."

Don't know what's so hard to understand about doing stuff that no one has done before, so they can be remembered. Ninety percent of the people I've met in the last six months I won't remember them three weeks after they delete - but the people who killed each Archdevil and made it to Satan are immortalized in CF history. I was trying to do something memorable and give people a memorable experience in CF....but I guess people are content to "in cabal, most kill/defend/raid". If you can't be a Cabdru, you have to explore...so maybe someday you can be a Cabdru

>Re: Hell trips
>
>In the end, this was obviously a character you wanted to
>explore Hell with, and take whoever you could get to go. It
>was also fairly obvious, they weren't going to Hell because of
>you. I saw very little leadership from you in the trips, no
>matter how much you tried to get them to write notes to me, to
>all about your wonderful leadership.

I'm curious what you would consider "good Hell leadership" then. I can't do much about like the thing with Llorenz (especially since I didn't even see it) or Ravon, but beyond that I think I did a great job of taking non-experts to Hell and accomplishing stuff each time I went.....not to mention trying to accomplish stuff in the hardest area of the game with 30hp heals. It's pretty hard to bring "proof" beyond 2 dead archdevils, 2 fought archdevils, and 6 explored circles of Hell when you have the abilities of a level 30 uncaballed character whose leading the top players of the time around....and from what I saw the only one coordinating that type of stuff (dealing with 2 sets of empire and scion groups). Half the people I took didn't even know the lore or what was going on, but I took them anyways.

>Re: Impatience
>
>You mention stopping to smell the roses on your Hell trips. I
>think that is the ONLY place you did that. I empowered you to
>30 (when you were at level 18) and the next day you were level
>35 and bitching about not being able to find me. The way I
>see it, you wrote a role for a hero healer, and that's it, and
>everything else was just "in the way". I wanted to see more
>from you, and I kept telling you as much.

I guess this is definitely where we differ from me being able to play when I have way too much time on my hands and having to wait to get skills that long (that arguably aren't much better than bards, especially in the solo department). I was empowered at level 18 on Nov 24th and in the next 100 hours and 20 days I saw you three times, pretty much involving "you suck, no go" each time. I should have just taken the hint earlier on I guess - not everyone plays as much as I and a few others do, but I should have taken that into consideration when picking a goal & Imm (Marcatis, why can't you have an evil religion ). You can blame the super fast leveling on a water shifter named Tiryl...without empowerment waiting at all it would have been a lot faster. When you're non-caballed in the thirties with your Immortal not around and you can't pk, it gets boring real fast.

I had my fun though and hoped I gave other people something to remember - I know I wasn't perfect on the religion but I was hoping I had enough to get at least full empowerment...guess not. If I did it again, I could probably get full empowerment as a cookie cutter to a religion - not sure I'd do it again though. I'd definitely have to play two characters at once so I don't get so impatient. Empowerment just doesn't seem worth it unless you get lucky with times/ideas. I can understand named priests and tattoes being rough, but empowerment I don't think should be so hard....

I feel, reading this, like you somehow feel like there's a problem with empowerment because you couldn't find your Imm. The problem in this case was that you could find your Imm, they just weren't impressed.

>I feel, reading this, like you somehow feel like there's a
>problem with empowerment because you couldn't find your Imm.
>The problem in this case was that you could find your
>Imm, they just weren't impressed.

My issue with empowerment is really just the requirement - I could understand the necessity if the classes were generally more powerful (example of limited minotaurs or sanctuary pre-ABS or pre-evil healing nerf) or if there was something warranting the need (like tattoes, special powers based on the Immortal, etc).....but a basic requirement to get any skills/spells above 10 levels just isn't my idea of a good fit. Lichdom is something I consider requiring immortal involvement - not getting level 11 abilities. I've been watching a lowbie duergar shaman on everyday whose probably still waiting on empowerment and I just feel bad for the guy.

I don't think it's coincidence that out of 16 classes, all empowerment classes are in the bottom six - and I think necromancers/orcs are only down there because most don't make the graveyard (using http://cf.mudbytes.net/).

Maybe just the reverse - let people get their skills/supps automatically but any Immortal, especially of their sphere, has the ability to strip them if they're doing something unfitting for their role/class/etc. It'd make the classes a whole lot more excessible and definitely a bit more newbie friendly (try explaining to someone new why a healer is too hard for new people)...and the game would be a lot more fun with more healers around.

But usually this argument of changing empowerment is lost, so doubt it'll change.

Without trying to bash on you any more, I'd say that if the empowerment system failed at all here, it's that Xhenod was empowered at all. The fact that a character with half-assed RP who didn't have half the understanding of his religion he could get from reading the helpfile couldn't run around with full empowerment is the system doing exactly what it's meant to.

I find, incidentally, that newbies with previous RP exposure have an easy time with empowerment. People who just want to power to hero and raid hell for phat lootz don't, and that's okay.

>I find, incidentally, that newbies with previous RP exposure have an easy time with empowerment. People who just want to power to hero and raid hell for phat lootz don't, and that's okay.

You should add "who are able to get in contact with their Imm". That's the caveat that has always nailed me. Not that I couldn't figure out religions or roleplay them well enough but that a lot of Imms I just can't seem to get a hold of.

I don't think it's coincidence that out of 16 classes, all empowerment classes are in the bottom six - and I think necromancers/orcs are only down there because most don't make the graveyard (using http://cf.mudbytes.net/).

Of course it's not coincidence. The system is designed to make sure that only the better roleplayers have an easy time getting to the higher ranks. We explicitly warn inexperienced roleplayers away from the classes. Etc.

You didn't have a problem finding Zulgh. Zulgh knew exactly who you were, and detailed it in your PBF. He just thought you weren't a good priest, which is exactly what the empowerment process is supposed to weed out.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>>Re: Your mindflayer role
>>
>>Wasn't a fan. There is a reason I always called you human.
>>Personally I don't like people who want to be <insert cool
>>race here>, but it's not a race I can pick, so I'll just
>whip
>>it into my role. I typically treat those folks as
>delusional.
>> You can think you're an illithid all you want, but you're
>>still just a human to me.
>
>Well I thought it was unique and not something totally out
>there - I could easily see the illithid wanting to infiltrate
>human society. I never ate food (always sate/quench) and ate
>every brain I could. I figured you didn't like it though so I
>just let it go after awhile. So much for trying something
>different.

And to be honest, I didn't hold that against you at all. I just refused to call you an illithid, or deal with that part of your role.



>>Re: You're interpretation of my religion
>>
>>I struggled to see you having any real grasp of my religion,
>>which is why I only empowered you to 30. I asked who you
>>would lead, and basically got "everyone". I asked what your
>>goals were and basically got "to do things nobody has done".
>
>>That screams generic BS to me, so I waited to see what you
>had
>>in mind. I snooped you a ton while I was doing code and
>would
>>go back and read some conversations, and it was amusing how
>>many people you talked to said the exact same thing. Sedos
>>said it best "I am still not clear on what you say you will
>>do."
>
>Don't know what's so hard to understand about doing stuff that
>no one has done before, so they can be remembered. Ninety
>percent of the people I've met in the last six months I won't
>remember them three weeks after they delete - but the people
>who killed each Archdevil and made it to Satan are
>immortalized in CF history. I was trying to do something
>memorable and give people a memorable experience in CF....but
>I guess people are content to "in cabal, most
>kill/defend/raid". If you can't be a Cabdru, you have to
>explore...so maybe someday you can be a Cabdru

As I said before. It screams generic BS to me. I've had enough people come through my empowerment doors to know when someone gets it. You basically told me, I'm going to do stuff, now empower me! Give me specifics, make a bold statement, something...anything. Once again Sedos said it best "I am still not clear on what you say you will do." I'm not the only one who wasn't getting it.



>>Re: Hell trips
>>
>>In the end, this was obviously a character you wanted to
>>explore Hell with, and take whoever you could get to go. It
>>was also fairly obvious, they weren't going to Hell because
>of
>>you. I saw very little leadership from you in the trips, no
>>matter how much you tried to get them to write notes to me,
>to
>>all about your wonderful leadership.
>
>I'm curious what you would consider "good Hell leadership"
>then. I can't do much about like the thing with Llorenz
> especially since I didn't even see it) or Ravon, but beyond
>that I think I did a great job of taking non-experts to Hell
>and accomplishing stuff each time I went.....not to mention
>trying to accomplish stuff in the hardest area of the game
>with 30hp heals. It's pretty hard to bring "proof" beyond 2
>dead archdevils, 2 fought archdevils, and 6 explored circles
>of Hell when you have the abilities of a level 30 uncaballed
>character whose leading the top players of the time
>around....and from what I saw the only one coordinating that
>type of stuff (dealing with 2 sets of empire and scion
>groups). Half the people I took didn't even know the lore or
>what was going on, but I took them anyways.

Typing "group" and seeing your name at the top isn't leading, and it really felt like that's what you thought much of the time. Watching you travel with the Scions, you were a means to their end, nothing more. They weren't listening to you, they were listening to Ravon (and not even all of them were doing that). The best I saw of you was leading the non-caballed/Herald group and making it somewhere, and yet...your groupmates still talked behind your back and via prays that you were not a leader. I really wanted to see what happened with the Imperial vs. Scion groups you kept trying to get together and lead. It was not going to end well for you.



>>Re: Impatience
>>
>>You mention stopping to smell the roses on your Hell trips.
>I
>>think that is the ONLY place you did that. I empowered you
>to
>>30 (when you were at level 18) and the next day you were
>level
>>35 and bitching about not being able to find me. The way I
>>see it, you wrote a role for a hero healer, and that's it,
>and
>>everything else was just "in the way". I wanted to see more
>>from you, and I kept telling you as much.
>
>I guess this is definitely where we differ from me being able
>to play when I have way too much time on my hands and having
>to wait to get skills that long (that arguably aren't much
>better than bards, especially in the solo department). I was
>empowered at level 18 on Nov 24th and in the next 100 hours
>and 20 days I saw you three times, pretty much involving "you
>suck, no go" each time. I should have just taken the hint
>earlier on I guess - not everyone plays as much as I and a few
>others do, but I should have taken that into consideration
>when picking a goal & Imm (Marcatis, why can't you have an
>evil religion ). You can blame the super fast leveling on a
>water shifter named Tiryl...without empowerment waiting at all
>it would have been a lot faster. When you're non-caballed in
>the thirties with your Immortal not around and you can't pk,
>it gets boring real fast.

You saw me 3 times in 20 days, but I saw you much more and you still had done nothing to impress me. People have said it, I'm very difficult at empowerment and not a lot of folks try me or my religion, and I'm fine with that. It gets even more boring when your role is based on accomplishing something as a hero level character and nothing else.

>I had my fun though and hoped I gave other people something to
>remember - I know I wasn't perfect on the religion but I was
>hoping I had enough to get at least full empowerment...guess
>not. If I did it again, I could probably get full empowerment
>as a cookie cutter to a religion - not sure I'd do it again
>though. I'd definitely have to play two characters at once so
>I don't get so impatient. Empowerment just doesn't seem worth
>it unless you get lucky with times/ideas. I can understand
>named priests and tattoes being rough, but empowerment I don't
>think should be so hard....

The fact you got empowered at all is testament to it not being hard. I sure as hell am not going to fully empower anyone who can't even provide a basic understanding of the religion they're after (or the sphere they are focused on) and you did neither.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>>>Re: Hell trips
>Typing "group" and seeing your name at the top isn't leading,
>and it really felt like that's what you thought much of the
>time. Watching you travel with the Scions, you were a means
>to their end, nothing more. They weren't listening to you,
>they were listening to Ravon (and not even all of them were
>doing that). The best I saw of you was leading the
>non-caballed/Herald group and making it somewhere, and
>yet...your groupmates still talked behind your back and via
>prays that you were not a leader. I really wanted to see what
>happened with the Imperial vs. Scion groups you kept trying to
>get together and lead. It was not going to end well for you.

Well it's nice to see when you're betrayed by people you take along on something they could never do on their own. I guess Llorenz' last action is testament to that, and a big part of why I deleted. Sorry, but I have no care for people who purposely pray and talk behind your back to make you look bad to your empowering Immortal, when I was trying to do something fun for other people. That's just simply ####ed up.

>The fact you got empowered at all is testament to it not being
>hard. I sure as hell am not going to fully empower anyone who
>can't even provide a basic understanding of the religion
>they're after (or the sphere they are focused on) and you did
>neither.

Yeah, I played a chaotic leader...which didn't really match the religion that well. I probably should have gone Kastellyn with the whole "accomplish something memorable at hero only".

As I said, I've learned from the experience that it just follows being a little more cookie-cutter/straight-arrow towards a religion to get empowered....and seeking empowerment with a twist on a religion (chaotic leader for example) isn't well perceived.

>As I said, I've learned from the experience that it just
>follows being a little more cookie-cutter/straight-arrow
>towards a religion to get empowered....and seeking empowerment
>with a twist on a religion (chaotic leader for example) isn't
>well perceived.

For a first try, yeah...I'd say go cookie-cutter. Just like the first warrior you try, or first invoker, or first anything. Just trying to get an understanding of the process, your skills, and how everything works is enough to work through.

As for twist on my religion...it's hinted at in the helpfile that I don't take chaotics: Adhering strictly to method and discipline,
success is theirs to control.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Ok,

A few things I want to say about the character.

1) Personally, the Illithid role angle seemed kinda bleh to me, but I rolled with it in our talks. I certainly wouldn't hold against ya, and we all come up with ideas we think are great but the world just shakes its head.

2) Heroimms and you! First, Heroimms don't exist for you to roleplay with. We are in character at all times, yes. That does not mean we are online to be your method of interaction. We aren't even full Imms. We cannot empower, we cannot make history notes, we cannot do lots of things.

Our time online is spent writing our areas, doing description room duty, answering newbie channel, and interacting with our cabal to an extent. We also take direct tells on how to's and bug type issues.

Now this does not mean that we don't roleplay with others, however we should not be the main source of your roleplay interactions. If you are looking for immeraction, heroimms are not the ones for that.

You seemed to spend a lot of your time trying to talk to Heroimms until I basically gave you a speech on not to do that. Our first talk wasn't too bad. I rolled with you a bit and interacted, but after hearing from some of the other heroimms, I basically got the feeling you just wanted to interact with Imms and since Heroimms are visable you tried that route.

Just keep a mind that in the future, we aren't there to revolve around your character(s). Interact with mortals. Make friends, allies, enemies, and have fun. If you are in a cabal with a Heroimm, and you have questions, most Heroimms (myself for sure) will gladly talk with you. After all, we try to oversee our cabals to an extent.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I felt this needed to be said, and hopefully others will understand this too. Again, I'm not trying to shy you away from ever sending a tell to a Heroimm, but keep in mind, we are doing stuff, and we don't revolve around anyone's character.

Braemir

Honestly, I only talked with very few people....very well known people (Empress, Chancellor, etc), people I needed for things (trips/ranking/gear), and hero imms because the character saw no point in dealing with the "masses" - he was very much against the idea of even mingling if it didn't serve a purpose. I just tried to spark conversation because I really had nothing to do - I couldn't do anything alone, I had no cabal, and didn't pk. So yeah, I tried to make it interesting staying online instead of just spamming aegis because it'd be nice to get 4%. Hands down the most boring character I've made to date....my advice, if you play a healer, go pking or at least be in a cabal.

As I said IC, I apologize if I harassed too much.

For not taking vanguards desires edge.(gularys)
And rolling up a necro(ruvah), knowing someone like you would be willing to dish out some info for a price. Then reaching ran 47 and having you log in and telling me right away "Sorry, I cannot help you" and being really hush hush.