Thu Aug 18 22:56:44 2005

At 12 o'clock AM, Day of the Moon, 7th of the Month of the Ancient Darkness
on the Theran calendar Kyn perished, never to return.

I loved your character even your speech. I tried copying it, but it doesnt work. Love to chat with you. Hopefully, I see you again. Have fun with school. See You in the fields.


Send me an email smusabkhalil@gmail.com.

I tried to make him sound something like a Pikey from the movie Snatch. I don't know why, but I thought that would make him fun to be around.

I justified it with the fact that he was from an isolated tribe.

I liked hearing you speak to, and got a kick out of what others would think if they saw us together.

I hope you're still around, I felt bad about powering away from you, but you seemed very solid and I think you'll do fine of you stick with it.

I will have to say, Kyn, that our first chats were so long because I had to slowly deconstruct your speech. But, sooner or later I figured you out. Your first few interviews were much better, in line of what I was expecting than later on, though that being said, I've seen worse.

In terms of tribunal, you had done mostly well, minus that one little mistake. You were on a path for promotion and greater things, but thats the way it goes, likely justicair or provost at some point.

Anyway, I hope you feel it was time well spent, regardless of the conjurer or anything else. Being one of the first followers of a new religion has to be tough, but hopefully fun--carving out new terrain.

Good luck with school and wherever you go, in terms of carrionfields, from here.

I’m not sure which one you are, but I’m sure I’ve never been empowered or had any lengthy conversations with you. You’ve got the whole ‘Immortal presence’ thing down pat. A different flavor than any I’ve ever had.

But could you have at least thrown me a bone? I was embarrassed every time I talked to you because I felt like you had to be giving me the CF equivalent of Pity Sex. I never had a clear understanding of what I was supposed to do, so I kept plugging along, hoping not to get underpowered and wondering if I even deserved to be! =)

I was also lost during your questioning. I felt that you had a specific answer you wanted me to give, but you weren’t giving me a clear place to start. It doesn’t have to be a leg bone, but maybe a finger bone or something. =)

I think you’ll be a good thing for the Spire, you’re not as Heavy handed as some in the past and you did provide good guidance, for me at least, in that aspect.

Hope this isn’t another Throw away incarnation, because I sense there’s ‘Goodt’ things, CF-wise, that will come from this religion.

Was a lot of fun running around with you, you will be sorely missed by Mylinos. You where a good friend and companion. I always like the speech even when I didn't understand it but that was half the fun of interacting with you. Hope to see you around again.

But it didn't take apparently.

Yeah wee worked pretty well together. You had a knack for timing your heals on me with your Strikes of Faith.

It's never a bad day to have two Storms, one of each dedication. I can only think of one bad time, when I made a Drow aveteran in the Drow City. I'm not even possitive that was you who was with me.

I enjoyed having you around. Keep up the good work!

Where do I begin? Well let’s start with the Immortal that Empowered me.

I had no idea what you were saying or eluding to mot of the time, and by most I mean ALL of the time. I ill-suited for your religion. The day I created, I’d seen you a couple of days prior and read your help files, and thought I could pull something off. I was wrong, and lost all the way through it. I tried eluding to that with the Ship and rudder thing, but I was tired and got all twisted up in it and left feeling like I’d just pissed you off. After that, I couldn’t get anything across with out over doing it and ruining everything I was trying to say.

As it was, In the end, after helping Zimel kill off Pruciable (SP?) And Lisl, I got this echo in Red….
(You feel your soul wither with your assoication with evil.) Complete with misspelling, so I thought I was supposed to report to “The Man.” Whoops!

In the end, I felt like I was wasting your time so with school coming up and a frustrating second mob death I decided to end it.

I started Kyn out with extremely mangled speech, but incrementally softened it up, both for my sake and the sake of those around me. I figured that was acceptable enough given that he had lived among the “Human Lands for upwards of 80 years.”

I tried to play him as a Politic Paladin more than a blood-thirsty one, and I was very pleased to receive Essence of fortitude. It’s a good virtue for a Tribunal Paladin, heck, it should be standard issue.

I hadn’t played for a few month or so, and I came back and jumped on in. I was killed in my Late teens and all my gear was sacrificed but a conjurer. He’s done the same to a friend of mine as well and I had characters tell me of it later on. I was so infuriated at the time, I broke character and complained to the Imms. I almost pulled the plug on CF again and went back to Mechwarrior, but a friendly chat later, I decided to stick it out with this character.

I really wanted to play him as a teacher and councilor to some of the other Tribunals and I was going to help all applicants that didn’t meet my standards to gain a better understanding of the Law and hopefully some geography. Ultimately I would liked to have a Leadership position or a Justiciar posting, where I might be able to have some greater influence. The end goal was to stop inducting evils and let the current batch Grandfather out.

I start school next week and I’m not sure I could make that work anyway. I may make another character sooner than latter, but I’ll stick with the more war-like gods I think.

I had many good experiences and only one bad experience but with this character, (With that conjurer) and I am curious what people thought of this character, if you take the time to write what you thought about him, I’ll take the time to respond.

Before I sign off, I do want to say thank you to Dalteric for the Empowerment, even though I wasn’t getting it right, I was having a good time and I appreciate the time you spent with me, I tried to incorporate your style with Seiichi, and screwed that all up (Soorae Seeichi)

Faer waell,

Just Kyn

The time in the Prosimy, I wasn't going to attack you, I was going to talk to you, but oh well. I could tell you were new, but I am very glad you stuck with it, its not easy to empowerment characters early on, because mine only ever made it to lv 20 or so before I gave up. Good luck with your next character, and don't worry about the bad people in the mud, for every bad person there is a good person to even it out. Some people are just bastards I suppose. You have the ****s in real life, and you get them every now and then in game too. Just ignore them, and keep on with the RP and plugging away. Well done again, and I hope you come back. I also found, when I had my first successful empowerment character, to pick a religion/role that I found that suited my real life self, that way I just had a easier to time Rp'ing, and getting into the character and the religion, and well, it helped me slowly develop my RP. Well just my 2 cents, I hope to see you in the fields in another reincarnation, and good luck with school.

I don't recall that event in Prosimny.

We had the scales, you were in Prosimy(sp?) the conjurer had fought the Huntress a little, and I came in and you attacked, and then I ended up killing you. Well anyway, here's the log.

<36mYou yell 'Help! I am being attacked by Kyn!'[br/>Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn is in perfect health.

474/594h 399/399m 585/609v 3 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl> Huh?
You fade into existence.
Your charge <31mdecimates Kyn![br/>Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn smashes the edge of a razor-edged shield into your chest, sending you sprawling.
Kyn's shield jab <31mdevastates you![br/>Kyn has a few scratches.

442/594h 399/399m 585/609v 3 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Msaylu looks at Kyn.
Kyn has a few scratches.

442/594h 399/399m 585/609v 3 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Kyn tries to disarm you, but fails.
Kyn deflects your charge with his shield.
Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn has a few scratches.

442/594h 399/399m 585/609v 3 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl> They aren't here.
Kyn has a few scratches.

442/594h 399/399m 585/609v 3 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl> imp
You impale Kyn on a lion's mark steel spetum!
Your impalement <31mdevastates Kyn![br/>Kyn has some small but disgusting cuts.

442/594h 399/399m 585/609v 3 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
You feel ready to harvest the bounty of Nature once more.
Kyn continues to bleed from his wounds.
Kyn's bleeding <31mhits him.[br/>Kyn has some small but disgusting cuts.

455/594h 399/399m 609/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Kyn deflects your charge with his shield.
Your charge <31mmauls Kyn.[br/>Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn smashes the edge of a razor-edged shield into your chest.
Kyn's shield jab <31mmauls you.[br/>Kyn's small crystal pendant flashes brightly as the light hits it before striking you in the eyes!
You shield your eyes as Kyn's crystal reflects sunlight at you!
Kyn has some small but disgusting cuts.

432/594h 399/399m 609/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Msaylu looks at Kyn.
Kyn has some small but disgusting cuts.

432/594h 399/399m 609/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl> trip Kyn

Kyn deflects your charge with his shield.
You swing your spear in wide arcs, forcing Kyn's wrath back.
Kyn has some small but disgusting cuts.

432/594h 399/399m 609/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Kyn tries to disarm you, but fails.
Kyn has some small but disgusting cuts.

432/594h 399/399m 609/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl> You trip Kyn and he goes down!
Your trip <31mscratches Kyn.[br/>Kyn has some small but disgusting cuts.

432/594h 399/399m 609/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Your charge <31mdevastates Kyn![br/>Your charge <31minjures Kyn.[br/>Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn smashes the edge of a razor-edged shield into your chest.
Kyn's shield jab <31mwounds you.[br/>Kyn is covered with bleeding wounds.

414/594h 399/399m 609/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Kyn parries your charge.
Kyn's wrath <31mdecimates you![br/>Kyn is covered with bleeding wounds.

387/594h 399/399m 609/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl> trip Kyn

Msaylu looks at Kyn.
Kyn is covered with bleeding wounds.

387/594h 399/399m 609/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
You fail to get in one more shot as Kyn flees.
Kyn leaves east.
Kyn has fled!
They aren't here.

387/594h 399/399m 609/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl> e
On the Prosimian Road
The wide road of packed earth here traverses the open land of rolling hills
and the tall grass which extends toward the horizon. Not far to the north
is a tree-line of tall, stoic evergreens, harshly outlined by the not so
distant sky. The packed-down road bears the scars of old wagon wheels,
indicating that large loads have been transported over through here. The
tall grass lining the road blows to and fro with the slightest breeze, the
wind whistling gently as it passes through. Large flocks of dark-colored birds
can be seen passing overhead, and there are other indications of various
wildlife upon the plains. The Prosimian Road continues to the east and to
the west.


(White Aura) Kyn the storm giant is here.

387/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl> trip Kyn
His feet aren't on the ground.

387/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
<36mYou yell 'Help! I am being attacked by Kyn!'[br/>Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn parries your charge.
Kyn parries your charge.
Kyn deflects your charge with his shield.
Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn smashes the edge of a razor-edged shield into your chest.
Kyn's shield jab <31mmauls you.[br/>Kyn is covered with bleeding wounds.

366/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl> misd

Msaylu looks at you.
Kyn is covered with bleeding wounds.

366/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl> You push Kyn back into an awkward position.
Your misdirection <31mdecimates Kyn![br/>Kyn is covered with bleeding wounds.

366/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Your charge <31mmauls Kyn.[br/>You parry Kyn's wrath.
Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn is covered with bleeding wounds.

366/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Msaylu looks at Kyn.
Kyn is covered with bleeding wounds.

366/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Your charge <31mdecimates Kyn![br/>Kyn deflects your charge with his shield.
Kyn parries your charge.
Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
You dodge Kyn's wrath.
Kyn smashes the edge of a razor-edged shield into your chest.
Kyn's shield jab <31mdecimates you![br/>Kyn is covered with bleeding wounds.

341/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Kyn tries to disarm you, but fails.
Kyn is covered with bleeding wounds.

341/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Kyn deflects your charge with his shield.
Kyn parries your charge.
Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn is covered with bleeding wounds.

341/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl> misd
You push Kyn back into an awkward position.
Your misdirection <31mdevastates Kyn![br/>Kyn is gushing blood.

341/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Your charge <31mdecimates Kyn![br/>Kyn deflects your charge with his shield.
You parry Kyn's wrath.
Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn is gushing blood.

341/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Msaylu looks at Kyn.
Kyn is gushing blood.

341/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Kyn deflects your charge with his shield.
Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn is gushing blood.

341/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Kyn narrows his eyes and glares in your direction.
A tower of searing flames erupts forth from Kyn's hands, engulfing you with swirling tongues of fire.
Kyn's flamestrike is powerless against you.
Kyn is gushing blood.

341/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Your charge <31mmauls Kyn.[br/>Kyn deflects your charge with his shield.
Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn smashes the edge of a razor-edged shield into your chest.
Kyn's shield jab <31mwounds you.[br/>Kyn is gushing blood.

322/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl> misd
You push Kyn back into an awkward position.
Your misdirection <31mwounds Kyn.[br/>Kyn is gushing blood.

322/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Kyn parries your charge.
Kyn's wrath <31mdecimates you![br/>Kyn is gushing blood.

295/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Msaylu looks at Kyn.
Your charge <31mdecimates Kyn![br/>Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn is writhing in agony.

295/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Msaylu looks at you.
Kyn is writhing in agony.

295/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Kyn narrows his eyes and glares in your direction.
A tower of searing flames erupts forth from Kyn's hands, engulfing you with swirling tongues of fire.
Kyn's flamestrike is powerless against you.
Kyn is writhing in agony.

295/594h 399/399m 608/609v 4 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Your charge <31mdecimates Kyn![br/>Kyn parries your charge.
Kyn deflects your charge with his shield.
You dodge Kyn's wrath.
Kyn continues to bleed from his wounds.
Kyn's bleeding <31mhits him.[br/>Kyn is writhing in agony.

308/594h 399/399m 609/609v 5 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl> misd
You push Kyn back into an awkward position.
Your misdirection <31mdecimates Kyn![br/>Kyn is convulsing on the ground.

308/594h 399/399m 609/609v 5 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Msaylu looks at Kyn.
Your charge <31mmauls Kyn.[br/>Your charge <31mmauls Kyn.[br/>Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Your defensive spin deflects Kyn's wrath.
Kyn is convulsing on the ground.

308/594h 399/399m 609/609v 5 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Kyn deflects your charge with his shield.
Your charge <31mdecimates Kyn![br/>Kyn is DEAD!!
Kyn's heart is torn from his chest.

308/594h 399/399m 609/609v 5 PM civilized waxing 8566tnl>
Msaylu says 'Yes!'

Honestly, you were doing very little damage to me so I decided to bank on you lagging yourself out, thus allowing me to scoop your weapon. I had plenty of time to give the rng a chance to pay off, but it didn't.

I never caught onto the fact that Msalu (SP?) was there and that she had shielded you until my first Flamstrike.

I ment to toss a heal or mend in but I double tapped the function key that I used for Flame strikes.

I was angry that I lost that fight though. I had plenty of mana to wear you down with, and a stupid mistake (In a series of many to follow) killed me.

You fought your end right, I screwed up. That was because I'm not used to Paladins not because I'm a newbie.

When I met Kyn, we did not start off too well, which was alright. I don't think everyone has to get along, even if they are both good aligned. We saw things differently from the start, which was sort of interesting to say the least. But we pressed on with the interview as intended, and things turned out alright. You seemed to have a decent amount of respect from other players, in and out of Tribunal (to include Dalteric as well). You knew a decent amount about the cabal, which is always important, so no gripes there.

The only thing I never really understood is that when I did interact with you is, I felt like I was dealing with an overbearing Sergeant of the Marine Corps (or in CF terms, some veteran war hero from the village). You seemed very demanding, especially during raids and combat. I do however feel that paladins should be leaders of the battlefield. And I think Dalteric's religion could fit well into this.

All-in-all though, you did well. And what's most important is to have fun, which it sounds like you did. Good luck with your next incarnation.

P.S. What was with the speech? Did you derive it from some language or was it just something made up?

I'll take care of your PBF.
That is if you want it. Just let me know.

Man did we get off to a bad start. I was trying to question you along the lines that Dalteric questioned me. I botched it and so I was glad we could steer back on course. Then your insubordination, that did bother me for two reasons. One; I just feel that you have to have an established chain of command, and that during a counter-raid, top-dog makes the calls, whether you are on or off duty. Two: I felt like you were a loner, simply because it didn’t seem to me like you were trying to ‘conform’, which is, to me, a good trait for a Tribunal to have in part. You seemed pretty mature about how you handled everything though, and I never had a bad taste in my mouth over anything.

That being said, I think you are a stand out. I did my duty penned a letter to Dalteric for guidance and put it behind us when I was corrected. The spire needs a good healer and that’s you. I was only able to hold off Gerylanst and Lisl because, in large measure, you. As soon as you left, they handed it to me.

I had hoped to have a sit down with you, because I was Lost in the religion and hoped you might be able to help me out. Ah well, good luck!

I’d like it very much if you could get my PBF. I haven’t figured that thing out and probably never will.

Thanks again,
Just Kyn

P.S. I’m the Battalion Training NCO in my unit.
I've been in the military longer than some players here have been alive.

Seems we have some other things aside from CF in common. What branch?

I'll be sure to get that PBF for you.

Appreciate the feedback too.

From what I saw of you, terrible roleplay. Sorry but that one incident was really just unforgiveable for a paladin. I can't agree with a tribunal paladin at all. Especially not with the current crop of tribunals.

That one incident you refer to must be the healing. It was all part of the character.

Personally, I think the spire should be run by Paladins, but that's me. It's my opinion that Maran Paladins are te ones who break the code.

If I was to base y entire of a Character off of one incident, all my characters would be as shallow as You('res).

But very little about my character apart from the RP I tried to induce with you. However if you want to be like that, yes, healing an anti-paladin is what I'm talking about. It's the most blatant breaking of the code I've seen. Think about what you did, read the code and read the paladin and anti-paladin class descriptions. It's not just a clever name.

Ever stop to think that that might have been a bit of RP betwee me an Zimel?

Or the RP of a character whose code demands one thing, while his oath he swore (On his code)required him to protect the spire?

Zimel and I had it out after words, and I allowed you the opprtunity to RP with me when I sent back to you. 'Perhaps that's why things are as they are.'

You more or less 'Huh'ed' and walked away. I forgot about you after that, because I figured you were one of a handfull who went out of there way to tell me I was a Coward, or that I should be ashamed. Aspects of the latter I was more than cognisant of, and played it accourdingly.

You never made any attempt at RP with this character that I could see, except for calling me names twice and having no follow up to any of my replies.

And I do know you, almost certainly by your tone, I don't know your name, or your characters, but I've run into this same incarnation, in the fields, and here time and again.

Still thank you for the input, I asked for it, and I expected some negative feed back, just nothing this low browed and ill informed.

First of all, your first priority is the code. Think of the paladin guild as a cabal itself with rules. And you broke them. Regardless of your roleplay with Zimel.

Second of all, what happed directly afterwards was you attacked the village. The day after was when I spoke to you about it. And you said that's why things are as they are. I didn't "huh". I asked you what you meant. If you want to dispute that, I log everything so whatever.

I didn't "call you names". I told you you associated with evil. You can't dispute that either. You don't know me or any of my characters. I haven't played in a while.

I roleplayed with you both times I encountered you. Just because I was angry doesn't mean it wasn't roleplay. Dahoro is angry. This isn't ill-informed. I don't need any more information than you healed an anti-paladin. What else do I need to know?

And I may agree with you.

This was Kyn.

Full stop.

My whole point is that if you do have this interpretation, you shouldn't be a paladin. I think (I don't know) that if your empowering immortal had seen that, there would've been repurcusions. If you want to play a character like Kyn, go ahead. Play a healer or a warrior or something. A paladin is a unique class in that it's the only one with built in rules. It annoyed me to see you ignoring the code.

Dahoro,
Play your own characters first most. You made your point, although not as direct as it could have been, that were YOU to play a paladin you would follow the code. If another person BESIDES you wants to play a paladin and define a set of codes, they have every right to do so. If this definement takes them out of the Paladin class, then the immortals will do there job.

My final thought. If people were to stop griping about other people's characters and how THEY should play their character, and instead just play their own character the game could be funner.

EXB

ps. If Dahoro had a problem with this, kudos for the RP.. but would he care about law or the paladin's code? This seems more the pang of the player behind Dahoro.

Dahoro's problem was with Kyn getting in the way of battle and IC, it was never more than that. And I am playing my own character. That doesn't mean I'm not going to be critical of others. This isn't an interpretation thing. It's not a grey area.

I was part of the group that wrote the paladin code and I don't have a problem with what I saw Kyn do in this incident, given the nature of his religion and the demands of his roleplay.

I'm not a Tribunal imm, and I'm not his empowering immortal. That's just me.

Ok. Maybe I'm not getting something. You don't have a problem with a Paladin healing an anti-paladin? I mean, I understand that he'd cooperate with him because of his tribunal role. But using his supps to keep him alive? That doesn't sit right with me regardless of your role.

I was defending the spire, not Zimel.

Even still, I only gave him that one Heal, then swore never too again. Zimel chewed me out about it. I was in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. After that I decided it best if I helped Tribunals out like Zimel with my body, and not Dalteric's supplications.

Part of my role, in fact my entire role, was to accept that I could only truely be a witness to my own events, and had to accept that there would allways be ore than meets the eye.

I understand that but the whole Paladin healing an anti-Paladin thing was just wrong. To give an example tt reminded me of Anakin cutting off Mace Windu's hand in episode III. The road to hell is paved with the best intentions.

Anyway, you needn't be so defensive. I just didn't have a good impression of your character.

That' the part that's bothersome. You've no perspective yet you pass judgment.

The best part is, I know exactly what you are saying, and I've told you that it was my intention all along for this characte. Still you're stuck on the same tack.

What the hell more do we have to say to you? You are the one who just doesn't get it.

I do get. You're saying it's part of your role. Your character had no problem with it. What I'm saying is a paladin SHOULD have a problem with it.

In the general case, I have a problem with it.

In the very specific case that I witnessed, I don't.

Him healing me sat right with his role. He was a paladin that was twisted to evil.

Yeah but Kyn wasn't. I don't know Lochzan but he probably had some sort of consequence for that.

What's your beef?

If I had known you'd taken your wrap on the knuckles, I'd have no problem. I still don't see what you're getting so defensive about if you're admitting that this is not a paladinly thing to do. Note I'm not saying your character can't do it.

But before that he was just a paladin that didn't mind sancing a necro.

Ultimately he ended up being evil, with no supps but three virtues if I recall.

Then YOU need to drop it. You've confussed yourself with your character. Read what you wrote.

I'm done on this sub thread.