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Pmenoa (Guest)Mon 04-Jul-05 05:47 PM

  
#39403, "School is calling."


          

Ugg. Just looked at my class outline and figure time to focus on school above all else. Thanks for the fun all. I think I am too focused on RP above PK for CF. Gfelzni(Minotaur gone Good?), Yyuffi(Storm, Elf, Dwarf elitist), Ionna, Haelstrom(hoping for a non complacent honour driven character)

To those people who thought Pmenoa had no Imm imposed detriments:

Pmenoa the Blasphemous Jackass, Exile of Fortress
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level : 51 Sex : male Race : elf
Ethos : Chaotic Align : Good Class : warrior
Practices: 0 Trains : 0 Hometown : Darsylon
Exp : 586900 To Level : 27100 Sphere : Deception
Age : mature, 360 years old (138 hours)
Hit Point: 265 /830 Mana : 443 /635 Move : 789 /789
Str : 18(18) Int : 15(15) Wis : 15(15)
Dex : 23(23) Con : 12(12) Chr : 15(15)
Carry # : 0/35 Weight : 0 lb 0 oz (Max 327 lbs)
Gold : 0 Silver : 0 Copper : 0
Wimpy : 0 hp Morale : Moderate Position : Sleeping
Hitroll : 2 Damroll : 3
AC pierce: 100 Defenseless AC bash : 100 Defenseless
*notice max Int and Wis? Hmm Saqzawaz?*snort*
**first issue I had with this was the fact that there was NO signal of onset and it occured not the same day as the Exile. It happened the next day while I was alone, fighting Dark-Elves in the Underdark. No room emote, personal emote, d'nada.
***second issue was just how badly it screwed this character, I was trying to get skills better and WHAM suddenly everything was hitting me consistently and twice as hard it seemed. Most likely not twice as hard just way more often.
****no rhyme nor reason to the restoration of 5 points of Int. None. Talk about sad info for role development, this was it, in spades!
*****worst of all, in my opinion was a lack of in game signification of what had happened. I had to alter my desc and then no one would believe that it had happened, eh Saqzawaz?

My experiences, as a roleplaying type person, ranged across the spectrum. Some allies were stellar, some sucked and were obviously playing CF the text version of Mortal Combat. Enemies seemed to almost all be uniformly well played. Yyuffi had Rastorenn as a foil, Haelstrom had some nasty bugger too. Pmenoa had the Imms.

What I did hate was people attacking on sight, repeatedly, a character just because they figured it was the thing to do. When someone tries a dialogue, listen a little bit, and maybe you will find a different way to interact with a character? The first attack makes absolute sense to me, you figure this is your foe as hopefully layed out in your role, but then go further than just assault, you may just be amazed!

I think my favourite two characters were Haelstrom and Yyuffi. I really did like having Rastorenn as an enemy, and was willing to put Yyuffi in a position of jeapordy with him. Haelstrom was a mess, but was a thrill. How to make a mistake a second!? Haelstrom allowed that.

I know I preach about roles, description and the like, here are a few:

Character: Pmenoa.
Subject: Darsylon is Boring.
Added Tue Jun 14 19:42:53 2005 at level 13:
____Having left Darsylon on a whim I found myself wandering without any
direction what-so-ever. Nothing but my frustration at seeing all the other
races flow through Darsylon getting rich while my family preached about
living harmoniously with nature. All I want, really want is to be relatively
comfortable, wealthy, and powerful. Just enough of each so I can take care of
number one, me!

____Sadly now I feel that tug of servitude my family spoke of, having been
asked to aid my people against a marauding Dark Elf by captain Regalar was
thought invoking. The pride and honour I felt by being able to do his
bidding filled me with something I have not felt, self worth. Now I want
that as well as the rest! I want to be proud, I want to be respected, I want
to be honoured!
***Imm done little quest to smack a female Dark Elf assassin character. Fun to do! Thanks!

____I found a place where I just may be able to find all that, the Fortress
of the Light. After speaking with Jemr I know I could fit in and find myself
respected just not sure which aspect of the Fortress I should put my foot in.
While I am bold against those of similar rank, I find myself more than a
little apprehensive against those who outrank me. But again there is more
power to be had as a Maran than Acolyte. I will have to journey some more
and find a few allies I can use to help me get stronger then I can more
easily make my mind up.


Character: Pmenoa
Subject: Two steps forward, Three steps backward.
Added Sat Jun 18 16:43:14 2005 at level 32:
____Well I am a coward when it comes to facing multiple foes. Also I do not
know my craft well enough to feel any sort of confidence when facing Fire
Giants either. Damn it all, I hate the fact that they have all seemed to
have chosen to study swords. I have no edge, I have no insight on how to
fight them, and so far the best advice I have gotten was that I will need
frost blades to win against the Fire Giants. Not the biggest confidence
builder there. And to make matters worse I have no idea where to get the
potions, pills, and other things to make me more versatile and resilient in
battle.

___Ah, the Fortress of Light, a place where one day I could fit in but as
what? A Maran would be suitable to my more pro-active inclinations yet I
still want to work with others to ensure them that are worthy and will be
protected. This of course is so far away at this point I really can not see
if I even will be brave enough to apply, the way things currently are going.
I guess time will tell if I can find peace and renown.

____Damn it all! I have items, I have friends, I have wealth, and yet I am
still unfulfilled! This is so frustrating that I can not even put it into
words. I have items beyond my imagination, I have friends who support and
respect me, but I can not find any peace within me. I think Sessha summed it
up the best I have so many issues, with so little direction. I have
forgotten my parents, entirely, they move from the Vale near Darsylon and
never told me to where. I have forgotten my initial reason for leaving
Darsylon. I have not found answers but more and more questions.

I will post a couple replies with other characters.
Oh and to that player who started singing "My Pmenoa" way to make me shoot HOT tea out my nose! You rotter.

  

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Reply Ugh, ugh and oh yeah, ugh., Lyristeon, 04-Jul-05 05:56 PM, #23
Reply Thread locked., Valguarnera, 04-Jul-05 05:48 PM, #22
Reply Well I tried at least., Dorn (Guest), 04-Jul-05 10:59 AM, #16
Reply I have been waiting to post this for ages, Gnome Boy (Guest), 04-Jul-05 10:53 AM, #15
Reply RE: School is calling., ORB, 04-Jul-05 09:43 AM, #10
Reply Orbie!, Pmenoa. (Guest), 04-Jul-05 09:52 AM, #13
Reply RE: School is calling., nepenthe, 04-Jul-05 08:17 AM, #6
Reply Seconded., Wilhath, 04-Jul-05 08:32 AM, #7
     Reply #### walks. Money talks. Ed, Pmenoa (Guest), 04-Jul-05 09:07 AM, #8
          Reply Wow. Ok I see it's a player problem., Wilhath, 04-Jul-05 09:29 AM, #9
          Reply Re: Player problem, nepenthe, 04-Jul-05 09:43 AM, #11
          Reply Ok I see it's a player problem., Pmenoa (Guest), 04-Jul-05 09:50 AM, #12
          Reply Difference between "Offensive and Abrasive" and "Unique..., WhiteRaven, 04-Jul-05 09:58 AM, #14
          Reply Slow down and read what I'm writing, Wilhath, 04-Jul-05 11:08 AM, #17
               Reply I was not roleplaying myself, I have before.., Pmenoa (Guest), 04-Jul-05 04:32 PM, #20
                    Reply Here is an unbiased and unrelated retort since I have b..., Rogue, 04-Jul-05 04:54 PM, #21
          Reply RE: Wow. Ok I see it's a player problem., Eshval, 04-Jul-05 11:30 AM, #19
          Reply RE: #### walks. Money talks. Ed, Valguarnera, 04-Jul-05 11:26 AM, #18
Reply RE: School is calling., Ishranaye (Guest), 04-Jul-05 06:57 AM, #5
Reply More stuff., Pmenoa (Guest), 04-Jul-05 06:50 AM, #4
Reply Yyuffi, Pnemoa (Guest), 04-Jul-05 06:37 AM, #3
Reply More Pmenoa, Pmenoa (Guest), 04-Jul-05 06:29 AM, #1
     Reply Haelstrom stuff:, Pmenoa (Guest), 04-Jul-05 06:33 AM, #2

LyristeonMon 04-Jul-05 05:56 PM
Member since 02nd Jan 2004
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#39438, "Ugh, ugh and oh yeah, ugh."
In response to Reply #0


          

I spend a lot of time interacting with players in one way or another. If I happen to see a player who is having a rough time, I try to give them a different outlook so that they have a purpose. Some kind of goal to strive for. It's no secret that I am an active rp imm. I tried to give you a way to become something with your character even after hearing what nearly every player was saying about you. You would say in one moment how you hated everything evil, then you would pray about how you hate everything good. It finally got to the point that you had to be ignored so not to bring anyone else down with you. I had to step in at the end there to protect a newer player from your idiocy. The veterans knew what you were about and kept their distance from you. Lots of characters are hated. A few players are hated. Rarely do I see the two meet like they did with yours. The good news is that if you learn from your mistakes, you know what not to do from now on. Take this next line as truth because I really do mean it. Good luck with your next.

  

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ValguarneraMon 04-Jul-05 05:48 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#39437, "Thread locked."
In response to Reply #0


          

The back-and-forth isn't going anywhere.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

  

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Dorn (Guest)Mon 04-Jul-05 10:59 AM

  
#39422, "Well I tried at least."
In response to Reply #0


          

I didn't know what happened to Pmenoa so I thought the easiest way was to just go up to him and ask. I never did see Amaylee again, so I couldn't do what you asked. Now here's what I gathered from your character, post-exile.

Your character was VERY bitter, and that's cool, but it was to the point of hatred. This is just my opinion please realize, but when you actually get to the point of hatred, it's getting close to no longer being a goody thing. Also, you were acting like you wanted help, as long as you didn't have to change. Here's my last piece of advice. You apparently smart mouthed a dwarven god, stupid in itself, but you are also an elf. So you got smacked down by the god of FURY, heh. I think it's too his credit, that nastier things didn't happen. Anyway if you take nothing else from this, NEVER smart mouth a god, no matter who/what they are or what their align is. It's just begging for bad things to happen to you.

  

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Gnome Boy (Guest)Mon 04-Jul-05 10:53 AM

  
#39420, "I have been waiting to post this for ages"
In response to Reply #0


          

You tell Yyuffi 'Always need to outnumber your foes eh? Not that I'm a foe anyway but whatever..'

Yyuffi tells you 'Three on one in Darsylon, you are one to speak, gnome... *snort*'

You tell Yyuffi 'Whenever did I attack you three on one?'

Yyuffi tells you 'You attacked my guild with me in it.. go figure.. you foolish little brat..and I DID attack you one on one, you fleeing dog.'

You tell Yyuffi 'Actually WE were learning there before YOU got there. What did you expect?'

You tell Yyuffi 'And WE were never going to attack you.'

Yyuffi tells you 'Then why did you attack MY guild, for fun?'

Yyuffi tells you 'Shut your lying hole, cur!'

You tell Yyuffi 'I am just doing what I can to learn.'

She is not receiving tells.

** about 10 minutes later **

You tell Yyuffi 'You really should not resort to using foul language. That is what children do.'

She is not receiving tells.

** about 10 minutes later **

You tell Yyuffi 'As for closing your ears... that was even more childish! You need to mature young lady.'

Yyuffi tells you 'Did you sit there spamming messages? How mature.'

She is not receiving tells.

  

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ORBMon 04-Jul-05 09:43 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#39413, "RE: School is calling."
In response to Reply #0


          

Summer School?

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

  

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Pmenoa. (Guest)Mon 04-Jul-05 09:52 AM

  
#39416, "Orbie!"
In response to Reply #10


          

Summer Session. Need electives, hate electives.

  

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nepentheMon 04-Jul-05 08:17 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#39409, "RE: School is calling."
In response to Reply #0


          


>**first issue I had with this was the fact that there was NO
>signal of onset and it occured not the same day as the Exile.

No, it definitely happened right when you were spouting dumb #### at Aarn and generally acting way too stupid to be an elf.

Calling Aarn and Shokai stupid to Aarn's face is not a good idea, and that really was just the start of a long tirade that I couldn't see making sense to anyone rational.

With that cleared up, I am going to offer you some constructive advice that you probably won't see that way. Fortunately, I love pissing into the wind.

Simply, you will enjoy this game more and go farther, especially starting out, if you make characters that everyone, including most of their allies, don't despise.

I can't begin to tell you how many times I saw someone say something along the lines of "Well, I wanted to go to the Inn for a while and hang out, but Pmenoa is there, and I hate that guy." Even good/benevolent characters who should have been your allies frequently were repulsed and would rather do pretty much anything than interact with you on purpose. There are characters that I have never seen have a harsh word for anyone ever that clearly couldn't stand Pmenoa.

I mean, you have the choice to pick a character that overwhelmingly annoying and abrasive, but no #### plague seems bad when most of the characters that should be on your side would rather log off than spend the ten minutes interacting with you to cure your plague or show you where to get some money/cures for it quick. No #### evil seems tough when good's biggest advantage, helping each other and sticking together, is nullified by how much all the good players hate your guts.

In the ten years I have played this game I cannot easily recall a good character who inspired this level of revulsion from other goods. Some of the best vets could play a character that cut off from the help they should have and do well with it, but you're not ready for it. You can blame that on the game or its balance, but at the end of the day it was always your own obstinate choices that provided the rope and hung you.

I didn't watch Haelstrom that much, but he didn't seem anywhere near as bad / obnoxiously opinionated / abrasive. That character was a difficult choice and probably over your head a bit in a PK sense, but probably is also closer to something you can play and enjoy.

  

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WilhathMon 04-Jul-05 08:32 AM
Member since 19th May 2003
528 posts
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#39410, "Seconded."
In response to Reply #6


          

A lot of people hated Pmenoa. As a player I hated Pmenoa, but I helped him when I could. Then I found out about him taking it upon himself to attack the Huntress. That's like the A-number-1 no no as a Maran is to turn your focus from evil to provoke and attack non-evils. THEN he started spouting off about actually warring with Outlanders. Gumbldink had more reason than any other Fortressite probably to hate Outlanders, and he did, but he knew better than to start a war without the gods intervening first. He did, I think, spur on the fall of Baltherias into evil. At least it was announced to the Fort when it happened.

Honestly, Pmenoa. Maybe it was your way of RPing deception to get EVERYBODY to hate you almost instantly, but I doubt it. My biggest gripe with you is that you didn't play an elf and it's hard to say that you actually played a lightwalker. I had a lowbie recently ask you for REALLY SIMPLE aid and you gave "No." as a response. That's not being a goodie and it's certainly not being a Fortressite (even though this was after your exile).

  

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Pmenoa (Guest)Mon 04-Jul-05 09:07 AM

  
#39411, "#### walks. Money talks. Ed"
In response to Reply #7


          

I saw Fortress players going for shinies just as much as Crenton. Group derision and blatant finger pointing at him when they did the same with, albiet with a heck of a lot more polish... yeah.. that is so cool! Sophistry when dealing with Eshana, she was great to help, but then she was with Crenton so must be pathetic. Nice going there.

I saw Fortress RP going to hell in a handbasket and goodies putting serving themselves OVER serving the Light. Ooo.. that makes me interested in playing a Fortress role. Not.

Playing an Elf that falls into your little world of Elves blows. Not all Elves are going to be idiotic gushing nature lovers. Phaw. You want that go get a child's comic book. Even in the Lords of the Ring there are dour angry Elves. Selfish Elves in the Hobbit. Tons of intrigue.

Your whine about a Gnome follower of Chaos attacking everyone? Well duh!? An follower playing like a follower should! Do not bitch about your lack of ability for self determination then turn around and last out at another player trying that too.

Light people that prance and pony all the time are boring.

Elves that prance and pony are stupid, fluffy, unfulfiling, and a waste of a race with great potential. High Int, moderate Wis.. a character that is too smart for its own good, thinks too much, or basically tries too hard is definately an option.

To the pisser in the wind: you have a narrow minded self centered pedantic view when it comes to CF. Good for you! Hope it serves the game and its community!

Limiting my allies to those I could stomach was fine by me, if someone could not "stand" Pmenoa it meant they were the type to kill a Svirf three on one. And then log off when times got bad or worse run off and go item hunting.

Oldschool Maran hunted evil, at all costs, no matter how badly outnumbered and with NO apologies. Gods did my warrior in the Fortress ,during the time of the Warlocks being there died a lot, but I had fun! Roleplaying was amazing, and when there was Imm involvement it was sparce and yet poignant not something to see weekly hell daily.

If you were evil you had NO where to hide from them, you knew they were coming whether you were in your guild, your Cabal, or with a horde. This pansy assed weak approach is pathetic and really, REALLY disappointing.

To have an Acolyte pretty much REFUSE to accept the Scepter was pretty much IT for me wanting to play Pmenoa. A free way to protect innocent lives handed on a platter, and refused? And then watching the Fortress people seem to log on and off as a unit? Sheesh.

And finally watching players having to fit their round character into a square peg for Imms and other players happiness? That is #### Ed! Qing Long, rocks! Even though my character disliked him, I, as a player respect his balls and convictions! I respected Gumbldink, apparently more than I do his player.

Maybe if Imms did more story line stuff and more neat all level inclusive global events instead of pandering and attention getting it would be better no? Nah. I really really really sense a HUGE decline in viable enjoyable roleplay options as imposed by both the playerbase and the Imms. Roleplaying enforced? Maybe. Roleplaying enhanced? Nada.

So now my effort to piss into the wind has been done! And I am all ready for school . Time to go stand in line, for hours, to get texts.. boo... but probably more fun that trying to play something NOT coming from the "same old, same old" mold on CF.

I know I can roleplay, character develop, and have an all around great time in a game that rewards such. I know now that CF has a long long way to go get to something resembling that. Prove me wrong!

Make the game Whilath could have enjoyed hanging on with Gumbldink? Rastorenn's evil could have thrived, God damn that was a great character! And for the love of God let characters like Aurilinius thrive, dark evil, intelligent, brooding, and most importantly engaging. Chow!

  

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WilhathMon 04-Jul-05 09:29 AM
Member since 19th May 2003
528 posts
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#39412, "Wow. Ok I see it's a player problem."
In response to Reply #8


          

You assume I wanted you to prance about to be a real elf. That's not true. The helpfiles label them as highly intelligent and somewhat arrogant. I like elves like that. You were neither that kind of elf nor the nature-loving hippy elf. To me, you were a human in a funny pointy-eared suit.

The problem with blasting the cookie-cutter character of CF is that the cookie-cutter character is a character that has no identifiable likeness to its race.

See my aforementioned hatred of gnome air/offense shifters. Yes, maybe a gnome/offense shifter in Outlander is going to attack dwarves, but is an uncaballed air/offense gnome going to attack anything that moves? There is no WISDOM in these characters, there is simply powergaming.

To conclude, study hard.

  

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nepentheMon 04-Jul-05 09:43 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
3430 posts
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#39414, "Re: Player problem"
In response to Reply #9


          

####ing seconded. I thought maybe the character was intentionally retarded and couldn't see all the things that were wrong with his viewpoint, but I guess this isn't roleplaying.

  

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Pmenoa (Guest)Mon 04-Jul-05 09:50 AM

  
#39415, " Ok I see it's a player problem."
In response to Reply #9


          

Thanks for the study hard.

But you are arguing against someone else's role to vindicate your own?
Does the Gnome in question have a role? If he or she does? Are you privy to it? Your are painting everyone with the same brush the Fortress players painted Crenton and certain other Storm giants with.

Does that make you feel right? Or even good? Who knows what players ccan evovle into, if given half a chance and some encouragement. Eshana's player is a prime example I feel. She has quickly adapted to roleplaying, AND she is willing to try emotes and esays. Really cool and rewarding to see that!

When your roleplay effects others, that is rewarding, Gumbldinks effected mine, a loner Elf looking for a new family, and something rewarding. Too bad he deceived himself into thinking he could find it at the Fortress? Think street punk from a good family, who resents what his family was, and really wants some future? In the end he became more standoffish, more arrogant, and filled with despair at what he saw the Fortress and especially the Fortress Elves become.

I roleplayed the intellect drop as best I could, it really made the character useless in combat and took away a lot of fun. Then again, Aarn implied I was anyway, so I guess it was in role? I got better at PK, I got better at working with others, just not anyone of the Fortress.

My Elves act arrogant at times, and reclusive at others. Sounds Elvish to me. But most importantly they have motivations, backgrounds, and reasons for acting like they do. I even went so far as to TRY to go beyond the sad limitation for potential Elf development with Yyuffi, referencing another fictional land mass entirely.

Someone posted a reply to your goodbye post saything they did not like the character. My first, knee jerk, reaction was to post 'What the hell do you know?' in other words Gumbldink is your character, your ideals for him, and the like.

You tried to break the mold for a Dwarf, but to me you seemed extemely Dwarvish, now wait is that NOT the determination for cookie cutter? I loved Gumbldink FOR his Dwarfishness and to hell with cookie cutter. Please do not presume you know a character, it's motivations and the like. Just messes things up, much like the person who posted that they did not like Gumbldink.

My issue with CF is that there is a trend to try to FORCE cookie cutterness on players. Not rewarding at all.

So again, thanks for the smack upside the head for studying, have texts, will travel! Ugg... my back.. Arrg.. my pocketbook.. could they make these things any more expensive?!?

From one grump to a player of a grump. Good luck with your school and stuff too.

  

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WhiteRavenMon 04-Jul-05 09:58 AM
Member since 03rd Jan 2005
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#39417, "Difference between "Offensive and Abrasive" and "Unique..."
In response to Reply #12


          

You say you want to not be cookie cutter and not let this mud force it's ideals on you - but I don't think you're unique so much as abrasive.

I'm genuinely curious why you consistently make abrasive characters? It seems like your version of "Non cookie cutter" is cookie-cuttered into being rude. I got that when I rp'd with Yuffi and Pmenoa. It seems like you get upset when people dislike your character, but stop for a second and ask yourself if you'd want some random character you've never met before who's supposedly on yourside coming up to and saying the things you say? I bet the answer is no.

Either way, I'm genuinely curious what motivates your abrasive RP.

  

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WilhathMon 04-Jul-05 11:08 AM
Member since 19th May 2003
528 posts
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#39423, "Slow down and read what I'm writing"
In response to Reply #12


          

I WANTED Gumbldink to the be the most dwarfiest of dwarves in the land. That was my intent from the start. I don't see how you can read what I've written thus far and take anything else from it than that it was my intent to impress upon those around me that I was 150% dwarf. I want people to roll up dwarfy dwarves, elfy elves, stormy storms, etc. because all too often people are just roleplaying themselves as elf, themselves as storm, etc.

That's why these air/offense gnomes get on my nerves. Somebody took what is probably the best race for a shifter and just decided to Quake it out.

In any event, I'm through with it. Like Nepenthe said, you weren't roleplaying you were being yourself and that's sad.

  

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Pmenoa (Guest)Mon 04-Jul-05 04:32 PM

  
#39434, "I was not roleplaying myself, I have before.."
In response to Reply #17


          

but neutral pacifists are boring and unplayable on CF.

And let me quote from the help files to all those who wonder why I had so much trouble being a Maran Squire in the current incarnation of Fortress politicking:

"Spearheaded by the followers of Shokai, who seek the total eradication of all evil, the Holy Brigade is comprised of those Lightwalkers who are willing to embrace the crusade which the Maran have undertaken. The Holy Brigade has joined in vow to never rest and never falter while evil walks the land."

http://www.carrionfields.org/display.html?hid=916&osea=HOLY

Oldschool style there. Now wait, you have leaders of the Cabal saying to leave off and not prosecute growing groups of evils within other cabals? Huh?

"Never rest, never falter..."

Total eradication of all evil.. hey let us go get new items and rank because we have a treaty with cabals evils are in?

"NEVER FALTER" hmmm... so just because there are a horde of evils within the Village and we have a treaty with them, let us play passivity to the hilt!

The crap I saw, as a player, with respect to this Creed, and the twisting of the Creed within the Fortress was sickening.

Oh and it DOES say evil, a Svirf, working for evil at any given time, is truly evil? Hmm.. not according to the help files so then why smack her?

"Due to their singular dedication to the earth, svirfnebli must remain neutral. Those who stray from the path of balance often suffer dire spiritual consequences."

From my perspective the Fortress was acting like a complacent toady to nithlings working at avoiding combat and ignoring the above Creed.

I will admit my characters show my frustration at what was obviously a bunch of ill thought out actions and politicking going on in game. To make matters worse you get people like "gnome player" who post one side of the issue and totally ignore their own actions when wondering why another player gets absolutely fed up trying to deal with them IC.

I will honestly say that I had more respect for my enemies of my characters with respect to putting out some serious RP. Oh and here you go, from the Elf helpfile:

"While they likewise hidebound and prejudiced in a paternalistic way, and even though they are kind-hearted and seek to aid and protect others of non-elven races, it is often done so with a feeling of obligation to help those lesser than one's own self."

http://www.carrionfields.org/Help/Races/Elf.html

Hmm.. seems my arrogance was right up the alley of the Elf, no? *snort* And ask those who took the time to truly express their characters to mine, and not some frivolous based crap. And guess what, they actually enjoyed the roleplaying they get in return.

Pmenoa did the absolute WORSE thing at the end of his life, forsook the Gods of Light, but why? Because in all appearances they had either gone mad, gone to the dark side, or did not give a flying fig in a rolling donut! Even after I had long passed getting any enjoyment out of playing Pmenoa, I still tried to make sure all actions where justified. Even loving Eshana was a way for him to get back at the sycophant Elves of the Fortress by throwing their mutual heritage back at them.

Aarn's RP with respect to Fortress issues was bunk in my opinion. If someone has logs of my communications with him, I never ONCE said anything about the Skyborn because as a player I remember interacting with him long time ago and in game Pmenoa figured the Skyborn was nearly gone with respect to influence and direction of the Fortress. And he was right when you look at the direction it has taken as of late.

Pmenoa was supposed to be an enlightened warrior, not a bladesinger, a Cavalier from oldschool D&D. A poet, a warrior, teacher and a scholar all rolled into one. Hard to do that when you are ill equipped to deal with the rather bizarre RP that just keeps on going on in CF.

CF can be cool. Really cool. Really intense. And when you get that infrequent glimpse of the Divine that gives credence to all the IC work you have done. Currently it is a game of one up manship IC and OOC. Yuck.

  

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RogueMon 04-Jul-05 05:47 PM
Member since 24th Sep 2003
718 posts
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#39435, "Here is an unbiased and unrelated retort since I have b..."
In response to Reply #20


  

          

I consider myself an unbiased factor here, given I don't/won't
play maran or good aligned characters. Because with "my" enjoyment
of roleplay, and personal style, I wouldn't last long without
an align change, which I think... Every goodie of mine got that I ever tried.


So..


You are saying that the current Maran aren't living up to standards, rather get shinies then hunt evil?

How many evils did you hunt then, while they were out getting shinies?

How many times did "you" raid evil cabals?

How many times did "you" go out of your way to help
someone else in the spirit of spreading good will?

Have you as an elf, ever given a younger elf or same-align
the armor-weapons off of your back to help them?


Seriously man, before you #### your pants worrying what the other guy is doing, you should really sit back, take in the wisdom
being given to you, and interpret and utilize from that.

It's one thing to discuss disagreement, and I also don't think the
immortal staff is always right.. But generally they aren't wrong.

I would be interested in seeing your PBF, and the Imm comments on how you exemplified the Maran life, it's Immortals, and spread the golden cloak of good-align throughout Thera, and your pk stats for all those evils that you never gave the hunt up for.


Or.. You could compare what everyone else is doing, and why your character was a failure because of someone else, and I use the word 'failure' because obviously you aren't very happy with him, and it's only in your own enjoyment will you ever begin to find success.

So sit back, observe the mirror, and heed the wisdom.

If it doesn't sit right with you, try another cabal, try another guild... if you still can't get to terms...

Find another Mud.

  

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EshvalMon 04-Jul-05 11:30 AM
Member since 22nd Aug 2004
519 posts
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#39428, "RE: Wow. Ok I see it's a player problem."
In response to Reply #9


  

          

On the mark.

You know, I attempted to interact with Pmenoa on several fronts, whether through Eshval, a mob or echoes. After several frustrating attempts of interaction , including the last where Pmenoa was rabid behind the Inn, I had to wash my hands of you. I have a theory your rp needs some polishing. You are very lucky, after attacking Lyristeon and then calling me a few choice names, Eshval the evil goddess didn't end you right there. You were so out of character most of the time and ranting, I was considering permanent insanity had taken hold, though mostly I thought your rp was approxitmating a petulant child.

Try and hear what folks say on this forum, they offer some nice advice. You received tons of immortal interactions, and you pissed it away...other players would have run with this ball.

Good luck in school.


Eshval's email
BlackMarquessa@gmail.com

Eshval's slightly off-center (unofficial) blog.
http://blackmarquessa.blogspot.com/
Carnivàle
http://cirquecarnivale.wordpress.com/

  

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ValguarneraMon 04-Jul-05 11:26 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
6904 posts
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#39427, "RE: #### walks. Money talks. Ed"
In response to Reply #8


          

I know I can roleplay, character develop, and have an all around great time in a game that rewards such.

I mean this in the most constructive way possible: Your consistent self-overestimation is your biggest obstacle to fulfilling that sentence.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

  

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Ishranaye (Guest)Mon 04-Jul-05 06:57 AM

  
#39408, "RE: School is calling."
In response to Reply #0


          

This is a shame. I had/have no idea what happened exactly at the Fortress other than what I could piece together, but I thought you were dealing with it very well. I was expecting you to get better and approach the Fortress again. Sure, you'd have to go through hell to get in again (including from me), but I expected you to try and likely succeed.

Much luck with school, RL and whatever's next on CF

Ish

  

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Pmenoa (Guest)Mon 04-Jul-05 06:50 AM

  
#39407, "More stuff."
In response to Reply #0


          

Her characteristics, while definitely feminine, are all imbued with feline aspects. Her soft appearance is augmented by a golden hue from her lustrous lush well kept fur. Surrounding her face is a corona of pitch black fine fur framing her delicate facial features. Fine golden fur with reddish highlights covering her face offsets her thick dark eyelashes and eyebrows that surround titled almond shaped bright yellow catseyes. Her narrow muzzle barely extends from her face and ends in beestung pale red lips and a petite dark black nose. Two tufts of reddish-gold hair arise from the top of her head covering and protecting her tiny upright ears. An elegant long neck leads down into narrow shoulders which gently slope downwards into a small well formed bosom. Her thin waist is usually accented by a belt or sash to enhance her femininity. Long well shaped thighs flow effortlessly into reversed knees seated above well turned calves. Her dainty hindpaws and forepaws are all well groomed and manicured to ensure swiftness in all actions.

*** desc for aFelar for the Empire.. till the Empire started rebounding seriously.

Jaemesun will not build a legacy via blood and iron but with gold and ideals. He sees the world in need of both the boundless drive of those of a selfish bent and the tender nurturing of those of a more generous nature. Forging a union of talents from both spheres he plans on creating a edifice that will withstand the deprivations of the envious and the withering of the greatest enemy to all ideals, time. It is through this unsatiable drive for a legacy worthy of a creating a name for himself that forces him to explore the lands to learn of the underbelly of what truly drives the endless battles between the various factions.

No interest in battling directly Jaemesun plans lie on building a power base solely derived from wealth in its myriad of forms. Then using it to build a better order in Thera as he envisions.

A narrow face with a bold bone structure along with his bald nearly pointed head gives him a aquiline appearance. His narrow pointed nose, that almost seems to twitch with anticipation, along with tilted sharp almond shaped eyes and a thin wisp of a mouth with dark red lips strengthens the overall avian appearance of this human male. His litheness is not restricted to his face his body is very lean and almost emaciated. He constantly chews on a pen and when not chewing on it he tucks it behind an ear.

I humbly offer greetings my Lord,

___
___ I have spent some days scouring through texts and parchments trying to get a complete picture of why the Orders that be have risen into existence. I have noted that they all form around a single underlying force: battling those who think differently than they do. Surely some mask this in flowery prose and shining attire but they are no different than those whose carnal nature is more readily apparent.

___To truly create something worthy of being called an Order and to forge it to be resistant to the deprivations of self acclaimed fools and the weathering of time one must Balance the opposing forces and integrate them. Many would view me as weak due to my profession but is not my profession that grants me my insight but my shrewd intellect. For too long have people relied on the blunt and rather ignorant form of persuasion: physical force. I will enlighten them with new forces of commerce, and reputation. I will indoctrinate them into a new Order where brains and not brute force hold sway.

___My Lord Khasotholas it with Your blessing for my work I hope for because having Your Will behind me will bring others to me and allow me to found the alliances necessary to my achieving my Order.

Your humble Servant,

Jaemesun Jjaonah.

***Spiderman stuff, just for fun, nephews corrupted me. I was going to try to find Mary Jane... Neutral Human healer. I got empowered. Not sure I like the system of empowerment but I guess it gives the Imms some enjoyment too.

I just posted this so that people would get better idea of where I have been coming from in all my posts. CF functions exceedingly well as a PK mud but is not very rewarding for a roleplayer, in fact it is more frustrating than fun at times. Also if someone finds some stuff they can use to build characters with, that is cool too!

Have a great summer, and Eshana, no deleting. You have got a great start with that character and you learn CF stuff at a heck of a rate. Strange to say but that class seems pretty damn good to start with giving all the neat things you can do, too bad you immediately get dragged into PK wars with the Village.

Oh and Eshana your emoting has developed enormously! I really appreciated all those emotes of gently brushing my hair back and other cool stuff you did! You caught on to emoting in a hurry once we started! I hate it when people run off when you are trying to emote with them, and do not get me started on esay problems.



  

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Pnemoa (Guest)Mon 04-Jul-05 06:37 AM

  
#39406, "Yyuffi"
In response to Reply #0


          

desc +
desc + This Elven maiden has the darkest smooth unblemished mocha skin of any of her
desc + race and long glossy lush blue black hair that is held tightly by a serious
desc + of beaten copper clasps starting from a well manicured topknot at the back of
desc + her skull. Tall thin forward curving pointed ears compliment gleaming azure
desc + blue eyes, surrounded by thick curly lashes, are set in slightly tilted
desc + sockets, beneath thin sculpted arching eyebrows, giving her an exotic
desc + appearance. Standing nearly seven feet tall she is lithe yet not scrawny her
desc + arms and legs are covered with the long hard muscle of a person of action.
desc + Delicated hands, with long elegant fingers, are manicured as are her thin
desc + narrow toes on her feet. Her gear is has a strange bluish glint or sheen to
desc + it as if she has covered it with some sort of oil.
desc +

Coming from the distant desert lands far to the east and south of Arkham, Yyuffi is the daughter of Azzalaer Dae Saemsai, merchant of Taar Daan. Cast out by her great paternal grandfather for her martial inclinations she has ventured far to the distant West to seek her fortune and return home as a merchant and warrior princess. Her endless thirst for education and perfection in all things she does drives her to be the best at whatever she attempts.

She has a strong affinity for exotic goods and just as strong desire for delving the mysteries of exotic weapons. Personal honour, courage, pride in one's self, and a keen insight into the workings of Fate along with attention to demands of her religion are core to what makes up her heart and soul. Worshipping the White Lion is central to her people and Guerric demands that they never lose perspective on what is truly important.

Cabal of Mercantilism

Item: The Platinum Ledgers

Powers:

1) Activate Gate: a merchant of the Mercantilism Cabal can pay a fee to the gatekeepers in the major settlements to have a single person gated to another city with the gate.
-only major settlements may have a gate, and a gate can be shut down if not up kept.
-cost of the gate is based on how many adventures(players) call the settlement their hometown.
-setting up a gate has a cost and there is a yearly cost of upkeep based on the amount of use the gate sees.
-settlements are payed their upkeep based on amount starting with the largest sum owed to the smallest and any unpaid costs sees the gate taken down.
-local populations have free access to the gate but those of the cabal must pay a fee to send someone through equivalent to the person’s level times a hundred copper.

2) Enhanced Haggle: better at bartering, trading, buying and selling. Dependant on both inspect goods and haggle current ability.


3) Alarm Cry: settlement guards realize the value of a skilled merchant and will run protect such a valuable commodity when they are in the settlement. Merchant is required to pay for the cost of their protection.
-only functions in settlements that have a gate.
-there is an immediate cost which the merchant must be able to pay from ready funds otherwise no guards will show up.
-any guards that die in the defence of the merchant adds to the upkeep fee at the end of the year the Cabal must pay.

4) Commodity Specialization: a member of the Mercantile Cabal can pick a specific type of commodity that he will be able to have enhanced by the artisans of the Caravan Stop. Only very specific types can be specialized in: pills, potions, herbs, food, wands, torso armour(around body, waist, on body), jewelry(rings, neckware), legs( boots, leggings), head gear(face and head), specialized gear(race specific armour),exotic weapons, staves and spears, whips and flails, polearms, axes, blades(daggers and swords), maces. Etc.
-not ALWAYS successful in improving items, can even end up destroying them, depends on Cabal members skill in this and how much he has in his Cabal bank account.
-the member’s cabal account will be drained accordingly for the results of the alteration.

5) Bank Of Mercantilism:
-private accounts earn interest but must pay a percentage into the larger cabal account.
-cabal account drained yearly for maintenance of gates and willingness of settlements to allow their guards to serve.
-commodity alteration dependant on current account standing(more money in account the more the Artisans feel driven to help improve an item)

Taan Daar: the land of Golden Desert

Orcs: known as Orcahi tribal and fierce respected warriors(not berserkers) and traders as well as excellent artisans. Sometimes known as the Whips or Children of Guerric.

Dwarves: taller and absolutely bald steeped in the religion of Guerric and focussed on service to Him for life.

Felars: lithe and quite the warriors, stronger than their cousins but not nearly as robust. Honour based societies that revere their Elders and worship Guerric.

Drow: the despoilers of the Golden Desert have many secret entrances hidden within the rolling dunes to assault honest merchants and gather slaves. Hated the most by the Orcs whom they seem to prey on the most

Humans: rarest of all the races present and are the lesser of the worshippers of Guerric. Often thought to be in collusion with the Drow they are not trusted and never given any positions of authority or prestige.


Scroll to Guerric
Scroll subject To Embrace Fate

note + I have come to these distant lands of the Far West to prove myself and show
note + my family that I too embrace the destiny that Fate will deem me to have.
note + Though the reasons behind the need for my travel are somewhat spurious I do
note + know that You have a plan for me Great Lord and I will not flag or idle in my
note + goals.
note +
note + I have accomplished much in the little time I have been in these strange
note + lands and now I feel that it is time to seek Your blessing. The peoples of
note + this land groan under the weight of obligation and need leaving things to be
note + as they think Fate has deemed them. They are lazy and foolish thinking that
note + Fate grants the uninspired and unmotivated prosperity in Life.
note +
note + My people are taught from birth to take pride in who they are, not to mistake
note + arrogance for pride, and to courageously move forward in one's life to strife
note + to take advantage of the opportunities Fate provides. Those with no pride or
note + courage fall quickly and silently there Fate unmet and unknown to the
note + harshness of the Desert of Taar Daan.
note +
note + I humbly ask for an audience Great Lord so that I may be tested for
note + worthiness to be brought into the fold.
note +
note + Supplicant,
note +
note + Yyuffi

I decided upon Darsylon as my new home and spent many a day travelling throughout these new lands of the Far West. By the time I had my fifth guild advancement I had well over forty gold collected and I worked on securing a few items all the while watching the trends in both mercantilism and engagement. And in both I have advanced beyond my wildest dreams, I have learned the first secret of mercantilism to “inspect” the goods and in terms of my prowess I have found the marvels of exotic weapons and delved deeply in the mysteries of whips and flails.

I learned quickly that the Orcahi, called Orcs here, are not the proud fierce warriors and shrewd traders they are in Taar Daan but selfish savages with no more brains than a snake. Also here the Dwarves are hairy beyond words and there is a darker strain known as Duergar who are as unsavoury as you can get. Giants , oh by Guerric’s great white beard, they abound here and even more unsettling is that there is a race of evil giants who are absolutely vile. Elves in this distant land are more fair of skin and arrogant of disposition, they present themselves beyond any form of honour or pride in self as the penultimate beings. Humans are a surprise here, they seem to be able to move beyond their waspish nature I am used to. The Fela also are an enigma and seem to cover a broad range of inclinations and dispositions.

***As you can see I spend way too much time on character development for CF. If I spent more time whoring up skills, and nagging others to find shinies for me I would have been much more successful in PK situations, living or maybe even winning!
****Having been a victim of the economy in the past, I tried to fix that with her. Failed.

  

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Pmenoa (Guest)Mon 04-Jul-05 06:29 AM

  
#39404, "More Pmenoa"
In response to Reply #0


          

Final role entry.

***Penning starts as just before he gets accepted into the Fortress.

____My time spent serving with and from within the Fortress has been trying and rewarding. They will not let me take point in battle, I am slowly seeing the erosion of my ability to defeat foes of similar guild rank. Thankfully with Leeyantra or Eshana helping I am more than a match for many foes. The Fortress is rewarding, I feel like I accomplish something each time I start a new adventure even if it is simply learning more of Thera. I realize my sheltered life in Darsylon left me very vulnerable to losing my gear. Thankfully with such wonderful companions I am able to see where this goes.

____Well I am frustated, the Fortress people are more and more lazy and withdrawn. They either run off for shinies, much like one they all seemed to despise: Crenton, or they spend time working on their guild ranks. They refuse to do simple things like aiding the innocent or thwarting those who would see the innocent harmed or worse slain. Outlanders are a guild of selfish beings who want to reset Thera in hopes of in rebirth they become the true power. They do more harm with their fires and actions than both of the dark souled filled orders could ever hope to do.

____Rage at my fellow Fortress brothers and sisters. They are lost to their own selfish need to serve blindly. Cytherea is not a worthy Avatar, she is a drunk and way too lost in her fumes to remember simple things. I fought the fires of Darsylon alone, I beseeched Cytherea to aid me, I spoke with my fellow Fortress family but they ignored me. They passed through the fires of Darsylon to the undead of the mountains of the north. And of course the worst of them is Xaerin, flaming arrogant arse with no right to be thus.

____Well my rage has been well founded. When they finally decide to save Darsylon, after weeks of burning, when Gumbldink tells them too. Flamin’ hell why the feck should they have to be TOLD too do good? Worst of all I am burned beyond belief from my previous fire fighting yet Cytherea, the drunken fool, yells at me for tell the truth? I am too burned to fight the fires. The dumb wench forgot that not only did I seek her aid against the fires I BESEECHED her to heal my burns several times! Fools of the Fortress have now done deeds beyond words. Xaerin and his wife, Ishranaye are out hunting shinies while dark souls wander about. Xaerin is despicable and a self centered idiot, he mocks me of my lack of prowess yet I have not seen him once go and actually put true effort into hunting evil. Worst of all, to me, is that Leeyantra, the one I nearly fell in love with first, suffers enormously from the greed that permeates the Fortress.

____Stricken by the foolish stunty god Aarn. The idiot lets the servants, volunteers, and other tradespeople that voluntarily serve the Fortress perish at the hands of the Outlanders. Thick briars tear the flesh right down to the bone, dead falls and other foul things are constantly place on the well trod path to the Fortress. But no, we stay our hands, we sit foolishly while the innocent perish. And worse, we let walk unhindered a foul servant of Eshval, Baltherias. Why? Why? Because we do not want war. War? We are supposed to war with those who harm innocents but Aarn is more rock than wise God. I know now why Mortorn fell. He lets those who do harm run and hide in their little sanctuaries that He has given them.

____Stripped of the Fortress rank of Squire, cast out, cast aside, and worse slain by a Dwarven God of the Light for the pleasure of Eshval. Who does Aarn serve, Shokai or Eshval? He is a fool, fool in words, fool in deeds, fool in inaction. Ack! Now I have been stricken by the Gods for speaking the truth, I can sense my mortal form but not inhabit it. I watch in anger and frustration at it near mindlessly goes through actions. It fights fires, something strong of my fear and loathing of seeing fires run wild must remain. The Deities of the Light are meddling in mortal affairs of the Light rather than directing them to stop dark transgressions.

____I may be lost here, in my soul, but my soul know the truth of matters, the spite, the childishness of the servants of the Light. I am lost to Thera but I am not lost in my soul. But I must take care, I am so angry, so angry at all this foolishness, I can not succumb to it. I must not rage mindlessly, like Aarn, I must seek my body, seek my mortal form and let Thera know time has come to pass for those truly seeking to serve the Light to strike out against the Darkness and those who do dark deeds.

Oooo.. was I a bit bitter? Hell yeah! But this character was SUPPOSED to be very pro-active against evil. *snort* No luck making that happen.

About fires, Pmenoa fought fires to the point of near death several times. Fires are annoying but a useful character rp tool!

Two poems by Pnemoa the general pop did not see:

And She did Sway

Happily she walked in,
And she did sway.

Smile brightening the day,
And she did sway.

Eyes twinkling so merrily,
And she did sway.

Knowing what to say,
And she did sway.

Handsome man did come,
And she did sway.

His smile was broad,
And she did sway.

His voice was honey,
And she did sway.

She gushed, she beamed,
And she did sway.

And this time did,
from an extra sway,
her pants went away!

*written after seeing a pair of pants at the gambler of the Inn of the Eternal Star and Pnemoa's best friend walking in. Guess who it is about?

__The Dirge of a Maran__

Blades are bright and soul fired by the Light,
Here he stands facing the darkest of the Night.

The endless battle begins his blades start to sing,
Eyes afire with holy zeal his mantle glowing.

Strike and parry, thrust and hew, blows fly,
Endless days of warring passing so quickly by.

Not for accolades, honour, or battle lust,
The Maran knows this battle because he must.

The blood of his heart now does flow,
This day, this last battle, will he know.

Into the arms of his beloved his form,
Resting his last, her eyes tears do storm.

Missing her endlessly his heart and soul,
One day, one night, the two again whole.

***second poem was written for Eshana. Well played character and finally a player who can be involved in a love relationship without taking it to a tacky level. Very fun character, I kept wanting to offer to write a character description for her though. A tad spartan Esh! I KNOW you can do better! Luv ya! Keep going Esh! And do NOT let anyone else dictate to you your role, Esh is YOUR character do as you feel she would. Stupid pigeonholing of characters irks me. Hence my reply to Gumbldink's deletion.

  

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Pmenoa (Guest)Mon 04-Jul-05 06:33 AM

  
#39405, "Haelstrom stuff:"
In response to Reply #1


          

__Haelstrom, born Svaen Longoar, earned his name from the barbaric tribe he was born into by completing his trial of worthiness. He fought with the worst enemy he could, a magic wielding demon from the Abyss, an ephemeral servant of Abuyal, Demon of the Dreamworld. Haelstrom called down righteous fury upon himself, nearly killing himself in the process but marking him as a true warrior of the tribe. The fury manifested itself as the worst storm ever seen by his people and Haelstrom was marked as the Bringer of the Hell Storm.

___Growing up in the frigid waters of the far north Haelstrom learned perseverance, warring, and most importantly courage. He faced not only the enemies of his people, the weather, and his own mortality without fear but also had to learn to steel himself against the demons that haunt his family line.

___An Oracle of his people foretold his future, and Haelstrom was sent far south to find the God of his people, Ordasen, and seek his future within the people of Ordasen, within the Village of those who Battle the unleashing of magic. Tasked with this Haelstrom strode out to the docks of his village and boarded a Longboat to head southwards. One day he hopes to return to his people, a proud warrior prove in faith and fire, and end the curse of Abuyal his family brought down upon his people.

____Haelstrom’s first months in the distant southlands were a hilarious string of follies that made him feel lesser than the beings he was now among. Terms like savage wild man and barbarian seemed to fit causing Haelstrom no end of discomfort. Finding the wrong shrine to pray at and then finding yet another wrong shrine nearly made Haelstrom give up his quest feeling so out of place. Finally he managed to turn the tide of errors and in his determination to prove himself worthy, even though he can not navigate these new lands as well as a child, by battling both magi and dark magic wielding paladins. Felling one of the twisted paladins he felt the blessing of the Great Bear swell within him.

____The absolute lack of honour, truthfulness, and understanding of the foulness that is Magic has driven Haelstrom to distraction. Being told he was going to have his own personal flame reserved for him in Hell by a good soul only fueled his resolve and proved to him that the corruption of a being by the seductive dark force of Magic was enormous in this new land. Curses and traps were laid out for him by those so called beings of the Light making Haelstrom more determined to free the mortals tricked into Magic’s insinuation into the mortal realm.

____Hoping to show the corruption of the seductive offering of power Magic whispers to the unsuspecting Haelstrom feels that freeing a being from their mortal form will let them look back upon their twisted form and see their error. This is the hope also for those of the Darker mindset and Haelstrom listens to all trying to redirect their foul energies. Maybe seeing that either seductive Path only lessens them and takes away their sentience and self reliance.

***Based this character, loosely, on a Norse myth about a young man who had to fight his allies and like minded friends in order to bring them to see the danger of the other realm(magic in this case). Then he finds out he is not even human but a Half-Elf.. or Ljosalfar. Was going to try to take Haelstrom's evolution along those lines. Born of magic or something like that Just to drive myself nuts.

***Oh and formating your role like I did really helps you access it quickly if you need a hint of what you said. Whitespace and indentation is a great thing!

  

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