Mon Feb 7 23:20:33 2005

At 12 o'clock PM, Day of the Great Gods, 26th of the Month of the Dragon
on the Theran calendar Varkathos perished, never to return.

A month without playing goes by fast. After getting myself kicked out of Tribunal and Phaelim not being around there didn't seem like much point. Might as well have my few goodbyes and rant.

This was my first Tribunal, but not my first law cabal character by a long shot. I have to agree with a sentiment expressed by Jaylaan elsewhere, the attitude currently in this cabal isn't for me. Dozens of times I'd spot a wanted character or an Outlander who had just been fighting some Tribunals nearly dead just outside Galadon and announce it on the CB, and no one cared, not one time. You can't come running every time that's true, but I just don't know how someone could have so little pride that they wouldn't try even once.

I got inducted into Tribunal by Marmaanth after a short interview and it seemed like a good start. Onirakoth got inducted maybe an hour later. I got promoted once early on, got past the weak levels for an invoker, and was running a flawless PK record with some solo criminal kills out of town. Honorable mention in the last role contest. I figured I was well on track to make Vindicator soon if I wanted it.

Then Onirakoth got made leader and things went downhill very fast. No offense, Oni. I liked your character a lot but I knew the second you made leader it was going to end up bad for me somehow. When you started giving me static about that interpretation of the laws I knew I was going to get myself thrown out but there wasn't anything I could do about it. Varkathos worshipped Phaelim under Reason and there just wasn't any way he could agree to what you were saying. I saw the tattoo came down there so maybe that's just me.

I knew what I was getting into by that point. Oh well. Maybe I'll post that log someday when everyone involved is dead. Onto specific goodbyes.

Melacarfina, you have a lot of heart. Keep on trucking. It's hard not to be won over by someone who tries that hard.

Evania, you were cool. Sorry you didn't know as all the vets know that the way the laws are written in that case isn't how they're enforced. I tried to argue the point because it made sense from the literal interpretation and my interview with Marmaanth. I knew what I was getting into digging in that argument, you probably didn't. What a way to kick an obvious newbie in the crotch. Better luck next time around.

Illurius, wish I'd gotten to run with you more. You're all right.

Ontudin, pretty solid. What happened to you?

Grurk, thanks for the contest.

Phaelim, thanks for our interactions. You were kind of a jackass to me but I guess that's your role.

Marmaanth, you seemed cool at first but that whole last experience just has me very soured on you. I may not always be the star or MVP but I'm a good player and I'm a little spoiled by that. I know I can play whatever I want and be treated well. I don't routinely get kicked out of cabals. It's your show and you can run it however you want, but know that I didn't like the way I was treated by you and I won't be back to Tribunal with you running it.

I'm sorry the whole situation left a sour taste in your mouth. I liked you as a character and really hoped you would have stuck it out. Just to clear the air, it was me that uninducted you and Evania. I totally understand you interpreting the laws like you did, the problem was with how you handled it. Without getting into too much, the problem was with how you were speaking to Marmaanth. Onirakoth basically took the stance "hey, look how this guy is basically telling one of the Immortals of the cabal to suck it, I bet the moment I turn my back, he'll do the same." There was no way I was going to stand by and let you go off on someone he respects in such a way. That is like you being a private in the army and going up to the company commander and slapping him in the face and not expecting your first sergeant to break his foot off in your rear.

Well, like I said, I liked the character and thought you had a lot of promise. Your interpretation of the law was not "wrong" and I have seen it roleplayed successfully before, but you just went about it all wrong. I would have really liked to see what you did with it if you carried it out in a better way.

-O-

>Well, like I said, I liked the character and thought you had a
>lot of promise. Your interpretation of the law was not
>"wrong" and I have seen it roleplayed successfully before, but
>you just went about it all wrong. I would have really liked
>to see what you did with it if you carried it out in a better
>way.

I should just dig up that log and post it. Maybe with a month's time you'll see my point.

Anyway, good luck with leading that cabal. I don't envy you that job and hopefully you're doing well with it. Like I said, right up until that incident I liked your character. Jackass of a character, but I liked him.

[TRIBUNAL] Onirakoth: Whom wanted Kansun?

[TRIBUNAL] Evania: I did

[TRIBUNAL] Onirakoth: For?

[TRIBUNAL] Evania: Stealing in Ruined City.

[TRIBUNAL] Onirakoth: From?

[TRIBUNAL] Evania: A wounded man.

LAWS LAW PROTECTOR
The laws of the land that shall be enforced by the Blood
Tribunal are
as follows: 

*** The areas that are defined as protected by the
jurisdiction of the Law
are the entirety of Galadon, Hamsah Mu'tazz, the Ruined City
of Tar Valon,
and Seantryn Modan. 

1. Murder, Theft and Looting in a protected city are against
the law. This
includes looting the pit of equipment that is not your own.
You will be held
responsible for your groupmate's actions. 

2. No offensive area spells or harmful powers will be used in
any protected
area. This includes area spells from charmed, summoned or
attacked 
creatures. 

3. Aiding known criminals in any way by directly giving them
equipment,
helping them to elude punishment, killing tribunal guards,
etc. will result
in a WANTED flag. 

4. Participating in an assault upon the Spire itself is
considered a
criminal act. Specifically, this means striking at the
Tribunal guardians
or aiding others to do so is illegal, as is passing beyond the
Tribunal 
outer guardians and into the Spire itself at any time. If you
are
standing at the entrance to the Spire without attempting to go
beyond the
guardian or harm members of the Spire, you may be warned to
leave by a
Magistrate, then you will be flagged if you remain beyond a
resonable time
required to obey.  The only time it is legal to assault
Magistrates inside the 
Spire, or the outer guardian of the Blood Tribunal, is if the
Tribunal holds 
your cabals item of power.

5. It is illegal to attack guildguards within a protected
area. 

Members of the Blood Tribunal will carry out enforcement of
these laws. 
Being that the punishment of a criminal is the supreme lawful
act, 
Tribunal members may set aside any of the above laws during
the course 
Galadon, Hamsah Mu'tazz, the Ruined City of Tar Valon, and
Seantryn Modan 
are defined by the 'where protector' command.

[TRIBUNAL] Onirakoth: A wounded man is protected by the law?

[TRIBUNAL] Lora: That seem difficult.

[TRIBUNAL] Evania: He is a citizen, he lives in Ruined
City....why wouldn't he be protected by the law?

[TRIBUNAL] Onirakoth: Perhaps you need to read the laws
better.

[TRIBUNAL] Varkathos: Which part of the laws would make that
more clear?

[TRIBUNAL] Evania: I am confused, the law states,
"Murder, Theft and Lotting in a protected city are
against the law."

[TRIBUNAL] Evania: Can you please explain what I am missing?

[TRIBUNAL] Evania: Did you remove my flag?  Please, Provost, I
ask that you discuss this with me.

[TRIBUNAL] Lora: Magistrate Evania.

[TRIBUNAL] Lora: Report to Tribunal Altar in Tar Valon.

[TRIBUNAL] Varkathos: I'd like to hear the explanation as
well.

The Blood Tribunal Altar 
  This simple room is triangular in shape, rising to an arch
far above you.
It is made entirely from solid gray stone, with no sign of
seams or joints.
On the floor in the center of the room is a silver disk
forming the emblem
of the Blood Tribunal - a scale balancing a sword on one side
and a book on
the other.  Against the far wall stands a simple pedestal made
of the same
gray stone, engraved with the laws of Thera.
 
[Exits: south]
     (Magical) (Glowing) A triangular metal pillar is here in
the middle of the room.
(White Aura) Evania the storm giant is here.
Lora the cloud giant is here.
A ship's captain is running through here.

Evania says 'Mobs don't generally care much about laws?'

Evania says 'I do not understand.'

Varkathos coughs.

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'It is a simple matter
really.'

Evania shakes her head in disbelief.

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'They do not care for
Law.'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'The Law does not
protect them.'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Further explaination.'

You say 'The Outlanders do not care for Law, but the Law
protects them.'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'A moment Magistrate
Varkathos'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Lora watch Outlander
claim to be attack in Galadon when not criminal by
Magistrates'

[TRIBUNAL] Lora: Because they do not care for Law does not
mean they wont use it

Lora growls.

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Because they do not
care for Law does not mean they wont use it'

[TRIBUNAL] the Blood Tribunal executioner: The Blood Tribunals
vigilance grows stronger as Baboroa joins the watch.

Evania says 'And the wounded man in the City yelled that the
thief was stealing from him'

Evania says 'He cared!'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Do the guards of the
city help him?'

Lora peers intently at Evania.

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Exluding you.'

You say 'Would they help US without being asked?  NO.'

Lora peers at you intently.

Evania says 'It makes no difference, I would have to instruct
them to attack regardless'

Onirakoth has arrived.

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Magistrate Evania'

Evania says 'It makes no senes!'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'You need more time to
learn it?'

Evania says 'No.'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'It is how Tribunal Law
works'

Evania says 'What you are saying makes zero sense.'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'If you do not like it'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Then leave.'

You say 'but that's not what is written in the Law.'

You say 'It's just not.'

Evania says 'Lord Alarian questioned me when I asked if I
could join'

Evania says 'He said, what would I do about thieves in my
protected City?'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'The Law is written for
those who accept Tribunal assistance.'

You say 'The Law doesn't SAY that.'

Evania says to Onirakoth 'What...?'

Onirakoth says to Evania 'Has this been explained to you?'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'People like this
Captain here'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Do not accept it.'

Lora peers at you intently.

Evania says 'No, none of this has been explained to me'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'That why Lora explain
it'
Evania says 'NONE of it.'

Lora snorts derisively at Evania.

Onirakoth smirks.

You pray to the heavens for help!

Evania says 'Why did you reassign me?'

Onirakoth says to Lora 'And your opinion?'

Onirakoth says to Evania 'For being foolish.'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Opinion on what
Provost?'

Onirakoth says to Lora 'Evania.'

Evania looks shocked.

Onirakoth glances at Evania.

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Evania just being
thick headed.'

Onirakoth says to Lora 'She is capable of continuing to
serve?'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Like Lora use to be.'

You say 'There's nothing written in the Law that supports what
you are saying, Lora.'

Onirakoth smirks at Lora's saying.

You say 'Not anything.'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'If Evania can accept
what Lora has explain.'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Varkathos'

Evania says to Onirakoth 'She asked why the guards in the city
do not assist the man that was stolen from'

Evania says to Onirakoth 'The guards in the city would not
assist me if I were stolen from either'

Evania says to Onirakoth 'Or her, or you, unless I told them
to'

You raise your eyebrow at Lora.

Evania says to Onirakoth 'The laws do not say that only
adventurers who have made a name for themselves are protected'

Onirakoth says to Evania 'Those protected by the law are three
groups.  This you should be aware of.'

Evania says to Onirakoth 'I was not.'

Onirakoth says to Evania 'These are mortals, guildguardians,
and pets of those that stand with their master.'

Evania says 'Why do the laws not state this?'
                                   
Evania says 'Why are the other citizens of these cities
overlooked?'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'It be implied.'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'That why.'

Onirakoth says to Evania 'This is something that all of the
Tribunal should know.'
 
Evania says 'It is NOT implied.'

Lora growls angrily at Evania, the low roar rumbling with
anger.

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Watch yourself!'

Onirakoth says to Evania 'Watch your tone towards my
Provincial Magistrate.'

Onirakoth says to you 'You are clear on this as well?'

You say to Onirakoth 'What I am clear on is that the Law does
not say what you are saying.  Perhaps it should, but it does
not.'

Onirakoth has assigned you to Seantryn Modan.

You say 'The Dark Voice of Law charged me to protect ALL in
the protected cities.'

Evania nods.

You say 'Light, Dark, any, all.'
Onirakoth smirks.

Evania says 'Lord Alarian charged me the same, regardless of
creed'

You say 'And I see the little power you have been given has
gone to your head already.'

Dark Voice of Law says 'What transpires here?'

The Blood Tribunal Altar 
  This simple room is triangular in shape, rising to an arch
far above you.
It is made entirely from solid gray stone, with no sign of
seams or joints.
On the floor in the center of the room is a silver disk
forming the emblem
of the Blood Tribunal - a scale balancing a sword on one side
and a book on
the other.  Against the far wall stands a simple pedestal made
of the same
gray stone, engraved with the laws of Thera.
 
[Exits: south]
     (Magical) (Glowing) A triangular metal pillar is here in
the middle of the room.
Onirakoth the half-drow is here.
Evania the storm giant is here.
Lora the cloud giant is here.
A ship's captain is running through here.

Onirakoth says 'The two of these "Magistrates" are
unclear of the laws.'
                                    
Evania says 'I am being punished for protecting the citizens
in my assigned area.'

Evania says 'The Law states that theft is illegal.'

You say 'And I'm being punished for arguing the Law as
written.'

Dark Voice of Law says 'Citizens are not protected, only
adventurers are.'

Onirakoth nods slightly.

You say 'Then the Law should say that.'

Evania says 'It does not state that theft against adventurers
is illegal.'

Dark Voice of Law says 'I just did.'
Onirakoth smirks.

Dark Voice of Law says 'I am the Law.'

Lora nods slowly.

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'This problem..'

Lora peers intently at Evania.

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Will be taken care of
for future.'

You say 'For the sake of all the Gods.  The WRITTEN Law should
say that.  Else we are no better than the savages.'

You have been inducted into None.

Onirakoth says to you 'I'll not sit here and listen to you
speak of the Law like this.'

Onirakoth says 'Marmaanth has spoken.'

Lora nods slowly.
Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Provost.'

Evania says 'How is one to have known then?'

Lora says in a dark, resounding timbre 'Lora be dismissed?'

Onirakoth says to Evania 'Now, are you clear?'

Onirakoth nods at Lora.

The Tribunal Spire glows momentarily, and Lora vanishes!

You say 'For ####'s sake.  You're welcome to your version of
the law then.'

Onirakoth smirks.

Dark Voice of Law says 'Answer for me this:'

You flare your wings out suddenly, quite angry.

Dark Voice of Law says 'Why have a special clause for
Guildguards?'

Onirakoth says to Evania 'You have any further questions,
Magistrate?'

Dark Voice of Law says 'If all are supposedly covered by the
law anyways?'

Evania says 'I have never heard of this clause until now.'

Onirakoth smirks at Evania's saying.

You say 'The Law can certainly be written as you say, but it
is not.'
Evania shrugs in response to Onirakoth's question.

Dark Voice of Law says 'Then I wonder how you even got hired.'

Evania says 'Smirk all you want'

Evania says 'I was asked by the Lord Alarian to hail the
Coming Order to the Ruined City, and to protect all of her
citizens.'

Dark Voice of Law says 'What is law 5?'
                   
Dark Voice of Law says 'Repeat it for me.'

Evania says 'It is illegal to attack guildguards within a
protected area.'

Evania says 'All right.'

Dark Voice of Law says 'Why mention it, if all 'citizens' are
protected anyways.'
    
Dark Voice of Law says 'Because, all citizens are not
protected...'

Onirakoth nods slightly.
    
Evania says 'But why?'

Dark Voice of Law says 'Just adventurers and guildguards.'
Evania says 'Why are their lives not important?'

You say 'Why would the Law be not more clear about this?'

Evania says 'Why can we not protect and guarentee their
safety?'

Dark Voice of Law says 'Why does the sun rise?'

Onirakoth smirks.

You say 'That doesn't make any sense.'

Dark Voice of Law says 'Why does the water flow down hill?'

Dark Voice of Law says 'It just is.'

Evania says 'Because the world gravitates around it?'

Evania says 'Because gravity pulls it?'

You say 'Lord Phaelim surely rolls over in his grave, and I'm
certain he's not yet dead.'
Evania says 'There is a reason.'

Onirakoth says to Evania 'And the reason is because the task
of keeping just the mortals of Thera safe is hard enough for
us.  Have you not seen this on your short time of duty?'

Evania says 'No.'

Dark Voice of Law says 'If you wish to 'protect' every thing
that walks in Ruined City, it sounds like the Spire is not the
life for you, Evania.'

Evania says 'I have not thought it too difficult.'

Evania says 'You are right.'

You grizzle your teeth and look mean.

Onirakoth stands up.

Baboroa has arrived.

Evania says 'Please remove me.'

Evania has been inducted into None.

Baboroa comes to attention, stares in front of himself, and
salutes.

You say 'Then why in the name of all the Gods does the LAW NOT
SAY THAT?'

Evania says 'I will not serve a law that knows nothing by
chaos.'

Onirakoth nods at Baboroa.

Baboroa boggles at the concept.

Evania reaches up, wiping a tear off her cheek.

Onirakoth says to Baboroa 'Foolishness.  No need concerning
yourself with it.'

Evania says 'Aye, foolishness.'

The Tribunal Spire glows momentarily, and Baboroa vanishes!

The Tribunal Spire glows momentarily, and Onirakoth vanishes!

Dark Voice of Law says 'I have some other matters to attend
to.  Did I answer your two's questions to your satisfaction?'

You shake your head.
Evania says 'No.'

Evania says 'But it does not matter, I know.'

You say 'I don't understand why the Law shouldn't say what it
apparently means to everyone who doesn't read it literally.'

You say 'To say one thing and mean another, is not the essence
of Order.  It is a fool's errand.'

Evania nods.

Evania says 'The law is supposed to be absolute, there should
be no room for question, or guessing or assumptions'

Evania says 'If I am to read Rule 5 to the word then,
adventurers should not be protected'

You say 'It troubles me that Onirakoth is unable to stomach an
argument based in the Law.  I have done nothing more or less
than argue the letter of the Law.'

Evania says 'Only guild guards and the spire'

Evania says 'It is fine if that is what you intend for the law
to be, but it should say that clearly.'

You say 'If that is the extent of his judgement, then the
half-drow is unfit to shine the Captain's shoes.'

Dark Voice of Law says 'We've covered this.'

Evania says 'No, we haven't.'

Dark Voice of Law says 'It is how it is.'

Dark Voice of Law says 'It will not change.'

You say 'Why not change the Law to make that clear?'

You say 'Instead of leaving it misleading and chaotic?'

You say 'I'm not arguing for the protection or non-protection
of anyone.  I'm arguing for the supremacy of the rule of law.'

Dark Voice of Law says 'Because it has been this way for
thousands of years.  You two are the rare exception of people
not bright enough to figure it out.'

Evania says 'I can't even imagine why you're insulting my
intelligence over this.'

You say 'How is reading something as it is written less
intelligent than reading something and creating some arbitrary
rule from it?'

You say 'That doesn't make any sense.'

You say 'It's illogic and madness.'

Dark Voice of Law says 'We are done here.'

The laws do not state that mobs are not covered, and it is
clear from Evania's answers that she genuinely did not know. 
That puts the fault with other tribunals, for not ensuring she
knew this.  She shouldn't, imho, have been demoted, nor
treated like that, and you are quite correct that the laws
don't say it.

In fact, tribunals have argued over that point before, and
people have made that mistake before.

There's plenty not written down, but it is the responsibility
of the cabal leadership to make sure that everyone in the
cabal is aware of it.  If an employee of mine screws up but
with the best of intentions because I didn't tell them
something they needed to know when I hired them, that's my
fault, not theirs.  To punish them is uncalled for.

Onirakoth says to Evania 'Those protected by the law are
three groups. This you should be aware of.'

Evania says to Onirakoth 'I was not.'

Onirakoth says to Evania 'These are mortals, guildguardians,
and pets of those that stand with their master.'

I haven't read anything stating that this is so. Guildguards are obviously protected, as law #5 is specifically written for them. However, I figured that mobs aren't protected and as Agantas, I told many conjurers that complained about their familiar being attacked that the law does not protect familiars and servitors, so pets being extended to the protection of law is a new thing to me. I failed to find anything that says which groups are protected by laws # 1, 2 and 3 (as 4 is spire protection and 5 is guildguards), and that these groups are PC's and pets.

Could someone quote me the part where it is written in the magistrate instructions to whom the laws are to be applied (as it is clearly not written in the law). I could't find this, or failed to see it when I played Agantas. If the Immortals of Spire have a problem with magistrates figuring it out themselves (using these conclusions in their warrants afterwards, whatever the conclusions are) and think that there is only one right way to do it, I suggest putting it to the magistrate instructions, unless it is already there, in which case I wish for that quote, as I am not currently playing Tribunal.

This also applies to the judging of corpse looting issue. If there isn't a written policy in magistrate instructions explaining what is looting, then magistrates have freedom of using their own judgement defining this, not do it one way just because Destripador said his way to read the law is right.

Destripador basically said to Agantas that his way to read was better than Agantas's and Agantas silently regarded him in the fashion: "What does that prick know about the law?", as he regarded Destripador as incompetent little man whom he regarded as someone who would rather protect his own ass in tough situations than warrant someone and didn't really trust his judgement (sorry Destripador, but Agantas felt that way, nothing personal OOC).

I will do it my way (though I haven't made exact line to draw in this issue, I rather treat it on case to case basis) in the future as well, unless there will be written instructions in the Spire to say what exactly is looting, taking all scenarios to account, as I see that the Immortals of Spire approve of my way, unless there will be instructions in the Spire how it is done, in which case I will do it that way.

If it isn't supposed to be done that way, write it in the instructions. Tribunal is supposed to be an order cabal where things are done by the book. If it isn't in the book, everyone will just meddle in their own way.

I'm sorry, I've been making a real effort to get along better
with the immstaff, but that whole log just stank of classic
Astein. "it's this way because I say so. I can't really
justify it, but question me and you'll be punished". That
kind of nonsense is bad for a cabal, because it makes players
just not want to join so they don't have to deal with you. You
don't come off as "cool immteraction guy" just as
"That abusive jerkoff". I know now any plans I make
in the future to play a Tribunal character I will have to take
this into consideration. 

You look at really great imms, Shokai, Valg, Eshval,
Lyristeon... These names inspire people to WANT to interact
with them. People read logs of the things these immortals do
and say, and even if the interaction goes "badly"
for them the general consensus is "Wow, these immortals
are fun to interact with". After reading this, all I was
left thinking was "Wow, I really hope I never have to
interact with that jerk". 

Onirakoth came off as just as big a jackass, who egged on the
situation and helped it become a lot worse than it had to be.
You don't in this log look like an evil bastard so much as an
abusive asshole, getting off on ruining someone elses good
time. Allowing Lora to stand there like some third rate yes
man was just lamer than hell, especially considering her
actions while in the cabal. (Her perma e-say being the least
of her annoying qualities) Standing there smirking at someones
lack of knowledge, when it was YOUR FAULT they didn't know
shows what a loser you are. You fail to explain things
properly, and then think it's somehow funny that people make
mistakes like this. 

I frankly don't see anything in any of this that would make me
want to interact with either of you, except maybe to PK the
hell out of Onirakoth. Nothing in any of this says to me
"This cabal is about order" or even "this cabal
is about protecting the laws and the cities" All this log
says to me is "This cabal is about knuckling under to a
couple of evil egocentric asses, and if you don't then you
aren't fit to join". 

I'll keep this brief and simple.

You had promise, and yes you were in line for Vindicator track.

I didn't uninduct you.

I personally wouldn't have, and the situation could have
been handled better by myself. I was torn between showing
some mercy, or backing my newly promoted Provost. How would
it look to him if I overturned his call? That being said,
I feel bad for how it turned out. I learned from it, and
hopefully will react better to similar situations in the future.
I'm sorry you've resolved to not return to the Spire. A player
of your roleplay/pk caliber will be missed there.

Look for some revisions to help 26 (the laws) so this matter
is made a little more clear for our players who don't have
10 years of Law/Arbiter/Tribunal case history to draw on, like
we vets do. (FYI for everyone reading this who wasn't there:
we are talking about law covering MOBS, such as shoppies,
in cities)


Marmaanth

>I didn't uninduct you.

Who pulled the trigger was never the point. I knew if I held my ground someone was going to throw me out about 5-10 minutes before it happened.

>Look for some revisions to help 26 (the laws) so this matter
>is made a little more clear for our players who don't have
>10 years of Law/Arbiter/Tribunal case history to draw on,
>like
>we vets do. (FYI for everyone reading this who wasn't there:
>we are talking about law covering MOBS, such as shoppies,
>in cities)

That was all my point or my involvement in the argument ever was.

I kept saying over and over again, "I agree, the law should say what you're saying. It actually doesn't. We should change that, because we're Tribunal and all about Order, and we can't be doing one thing and having our rules saying another." All I got for being right in that case was talked down to like I was an idiot.

Would you want to play in a cabal where you were treated that way by a combined effort of mortal and immortal leadership? I don't. I might take that in an evil cabal like Scion or Empire if it fitted my role.