After I first deleted I had no intention of writing a goodbye note on the forums, I honestly didn't think there was a point. However, there has been enough speculation and conjecture on the forums, both Dio's and the official CF forums that I now feel it necessary to post my reasons for deleting Quezzumpliet.

Let me first state that this was not a rage deletion, rather it was the result of nearly fourteen months of circumstances both unpleasant and unfortunate that started the first day I immed. I am not going to give specific examples as that is unnecessary and inappropriate nor will I divulge any information about my time in Asgaard beyond what is in this post so please do not ask. What I am going to relate are the types of experiences that led to my frustration and ultimately to my decision to leave.

There is a rather strong clique that goes on behind the scenes and though I am not condemning this it is not positive in my opinion. A lot of it has to do with peoples' personalities and the bonds that develop, even over a telnet connection. There is a sense of camaraderie that I personally never felt apart of. I did try, but my efforts were ineffective and possibly even damaging to my goals. Not to say that I didn't like or have any amiable relationships as there were many of the younger immortals and some of the veterans who made some of my time as an Imm enjoyable.

Unfortunately the effects of this type of social stratification is that Asgaard is rife with favoritism and most of it is unchecked. If you are part of the clique then you are more likely to get what you need faster. Those who are not simply had to wait, as I did. Minor mistakes too often ended up with scathing reprimands and patronizing dialogs that made abundantly clear that I was not respected. This went as far as being told not once but twice by one particular imm that I was not welcome in Asgaard. It made me often wonder why I was immed in the first place.

By no means am I trying to paint a picture of the entire staff being some draconian entity that all should fear, it is quite the opposite. Nor should it be inferred that I was just a poor victim who never did anything wrong, I made plenty of stupid mistakes worthy of reprimand, everyone does. It is no secret that I was an ardent supporter of Nexus and when it was destroyed I felt a major purpose for my imming had been removed and I was not happy and more than vocal about it. Too vocal. I'm sure my lamentations chaffed more than one person. Be that as it may, the repercussions I felt were more an example of vindictiveness than anything else.

The staff works very hard for no pay to produce a great game that people can play for free. At the same time no one is getting paid and they shouldn't have to put up with anything they feel is offensive or abusive. I still feel that Carrion Fields is the best MUD out there and I do not regret becoming an Imm. It has been an enlightening experience and has given me a profound respect for the work that goes on behind the scenes to keep this game growing and changing all these years. However, the interpersonal conflicts that arise only diminish the accomplishments of a highly skilled and extremely dedicated staff. It doesn't matter how good a new feature is if people are treated poorly in the process. Despite this I still hope for the continued success of this game though I am uncertain if I will ever play again.

Ultimately I felt that the hard work I gave to the game over the last year was overshadowed by an incompatibility of personalities and a feeling that I simply didn't fit in and wasn't welcome, nor did I feel that any amount of accomplishment would change the views of those who disliked me. In many ways it felt not unlike a popularity contest in which I was destined to lose and despite my efforts to the contrary that is exactly what happened. I lost, and so I left.

To those who have considered Imming I do not want to dissuade you from trying. My experiences are my own and I think anyone who wants to try should. You won't know if it is for you unless you try.

To everyone both Imm and Mortal who was positive in their interactions with me and supported me in those efforts I thank you and your invaluable time.

--Quezz

..being an ass-licker again. But whatever others want to call me, I'm going to put in my fair share of view during my short-time as a Heroimm.

The motherhood statement from day-one for a Heroimm: Not everyone enjoys being an Imm or the work involved as an Imm.

Good CF player != Good Imm. Some Imms are suited for interaction, some enjoy background work/quest, some like to code. Some are better off as players. The IMPs try to find a fit for you, but all Heroimms go through the same path. Favouritism or not.

In spite of my different zone times with US, I still got a fair share of enjoyment with all the Imm staff. I've gotten slept, spelled up, whacked with canoes, what-have-yous. I've enjoyed each and every one! Basically, I try to contribute with roles or specific assignments given, most of which was to deal with newbies and the newbie channel. I do not know how well I have done as a Heroimm, but I have never felt left out, in spite of the time zone where I login only to find Valg, Kastellyn or mostly Grogim.

Even when I log in during peak hours, in no way did I feel awkward nor was there favouritism shown blatantly among the Heroimms. All were equal. I was treatly professionally like an adult in a high-paced workplace. I was pleasantly surprised at the high-level planning in what... a game? Do good, contribute, complete within schedule = promotion. Else, promotion pass you by for that period. It applys to real-life.

And yes, we are all but humans with feelings and preferences. So cliques are not avoidable. I roughly know who talks with whom and I have had my fairshare of rebuttals and encouragements.

Area-coding took a lot of my time, and at that time I was heavily involved with a couple of real-life projects. I felt I could not contribute as a Heroimm and after a couple of months, I decided to quit on my own. The Imms were patient with me and my incessantly pranks and corny jokes. Remember 'Take chair'?

All in all, I've enjoyed so much and the interactions were fabulous. It was a different kind of play in CF. Will I join the Imm staff again? You bet! Definitely, if my character is worthy of recognition. If not I'll be trying over and over again.

To those who want to Heroimm:
1. Be prepared mentally. The playing fields have changed from a character player to a newbie again.
2. Contribute as much as you can. My life, my heart, my soul for, er, CF?
3. Be humble. Always.

Some things are to be expected and for every person who imms, there is a level of comfort of how you are treated. What is important to remember is that each of us who becomes an immortal have one thing in common. We are human. Being human means that we are going to respond in different ways to how we are treated.

While the player base sees this as a game, the immortal staff has to look at this from a business perspective. The player base, or at least a vast majority of the player base, states they see how much work the staff puts into the game to ensure a superior product. But, let's look at the business side of work. You show up, put in your hours, do a good job and get a promotion. This is how companies who have a superior product work. If you don't add to the solution of providing a superior product, have you earned a promotion? Not to be cold or harsh, but if an employee can't produce, I fire them. They don't do that here. They give you every opportunity to show up, put in your hours, do a good job and get a promotion. If one or more of those things aren't happening, they shouldn't get a promotion or special consideration. If you were at work putting in your 40 hours a week, and someone who called in sick often got promoted or treated special how would that make you feel? Being treated special when you are the new employee who hasn't proven yourself is a slap in the face to those who have done the work.

I do sympathize with Quezz for what he did have to go through in the past year. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I wish you nothing but the best, Quezz.

Every immortal who has made themselves known to me who has been around longer then me has reprimanded me for something. Each time deservedly so. After I earned my religion, I noticed a distinct change in attitude towards me. I think every immortal who has a religion can tell you a similar story. Before the religion, you are the new employee trying to earn a spot. Nothing more, nothing less.

.

I think the The general feel of carrion field immortals from the playerbase is that in terms of gameplay, operations, rp, area descriptions, the actual code and substance of an internet text game, in these terms, cf immortals are professional and do a good job.

I think it would be fair to say that the playerbase would generally agree that in terms of attitude, treatment of players in game on in forums, has improved over the years, and tends to be high-handed. Unpleasant titles, people caught "cheating" having simultaneous sarcastic (but I admit, funny) death emotes, realm of the dead chats, generally tend to be condescending and patronising if not high handed. There are some nice imms, but these don't tend to be the ones who pull the strings, or at least that's the impression I get from dioxide and here.

This stems from the prevailing argument that the imms are not paid, hold no tangible legal responsibility in money or obligations to the playerbase, and this is "their" mud, and they will run it "their" way. They will listen to feedback and adjust as they see fit, but it's not a democracy. I remember Valguarnera saying that players are seen as "guests" in the mud. Fine, I accept that. But I think there have been occasions where imms did not behave like "kind hosts." It's a perfectly viable argument for people who want control and want a mud to be run the way they like.

This is also linked very closely to the "enforced roleplay" element that makes up the significant thing about CF. Gameplay, tactics aside (which are good), my enjoyment has always been derived from the fact that I don't hear things like "You were tooled!" and "I'm 1337" and "got 2 go bathroom b rgt b3k". Enforced RP is a good thing.

The high-handed, patronising tone is something that will hinder CF from becoming truly great and become a large, wider player base mud. This is probably a thing done on purpose. Clearly Asgaard does not want to have more people, if it means changing this possession of central authority. Coming from an everquest and dark age of camelot background, rule enforcement was firm, but you would never call it high-handed, patronising or condescending. This is because the people who enforce it do so from paid jobs, and know that the customer is king, and that it's a commercial business, and that customer support is taking #### from people and still being nice.

Hence, the very reason why immortals can continue to be high handed, have favouritism, is because of a lack of accountability to anyone except themselves and the politics of management. They take #### only if they want to. Players can't do anything, if they argue, they are guests and told to leave, if they post messages that are critical of immortals, these are deleted.

>I do sympathize with Quezz for what he did have to go through
>in the past year. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I wish you
>nothing but the best, Quezz.

I wanted to clarify that quote and hopefully Lyristeon can confirm this.

I do not believe it is in reference to my time as an imm but rather to a personal matter the severity of which would warrant what he stated. I don't want people reading it to get the idea that my time as an imm was so terrible, it wasn't.

Thank you for the kind regards, it is appreciated.

--Quezz

It most certainly was just directed to you on a personal level. Nothing regarding your time or actions as an imm.

Very well written. Granted, none of us way down here can really know what goes on in Asgaard without some speculation, but from my conversations with Immortals past and present, I think that you have shed some light on a few sour notes.

It's depressing to think that "unchecked favoritism" is a part of the Immortal hierarchy. Definitely believable though, considering many corporeal companies are run that way as well. The old "It's not what you know" adage. Of course it cannot be proven and anything short of vehement denial would be unexpected.

Damned if my strong disapproval of favoritism allows me to be quiet, though. When you have a level 51 rank up to level 54 in less than 26 weeks while others wait in the wings for 18 months or more, something smells fishy. Maybe they deserved it, but I smell the inside track. Still, it's a private company who can and does make their own written and unwritten rules. They promote who they want, when they want.

I have few complaints about their product and no doubt will continue to enjoy it for a long time to come. I think I will play it safe though, and enjoy CF while paying as little attention as possible to "the man behind the curtain."

Again, sorry it worked out the way it did. I enjoyed your character as a mortal, for what it's worth. Hope you come back with another strong mortal, but I completely understand if you don't.

Nivek.

Damned if my strong disapproval of favoritism allows me to be quiet, though. When you have a level 51 rank up to level 54 in less than 26 weeks while others wait in the wings for 18 months or more, something smells fishy. Maybe they deserved it, but I smell the inside track. Still, it's a private company who can and does make their own written and unwritten rules. They promote who they want, when they want.

First, the appropriate variable in promotions isn't time since joining. It's a combination of hours invested (different people keep different schedules), ideas contributed, responsibility with authority already granted, and projects completed. Counting calendar days is worse than pointless, because it's not a position with regular hours. Rubber-stamping people to the next level just because they've been around a while isn't a solution either.

If a new staff member wants to see their first promotion quickly, they can write a good area in a timely fashion. Writing a poorly-designed or mistake-laden area means the review process is going to take longer and involve more extensive revisions. Area writing isn't a 4th grade play. We're not out there to give everyone who participates a certificate and a pat on the head. If it's not good, it's Team Area's job to say "This is not good. Here's (pages of) why. Fix that up, throw in the next draft, and we'll look again."

Further promotions have less to do with specific milestones (write an area), and more to do with the overall perspective I talked about in the first paragraph. While I don't make those decisions (only Implementors can promote any staff member), I'm involved in the discussions, and I think we're very consistent as a whole. List the projects, cover the highlights and lowlights of the day-to-day work, and make the call.

At the end of the day...
I have few complaints about their product and no doubt will continue to enjoy it for a long time to come.

That's probably the best testament that we're putting the right people at the right levels of authority.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

It might also be worth mentioning that in my view both as a HeroImm here, and on other MUDs in the past, that your level as an Immortal isn't specifically associated with your position among the Immortals, but rather the level of responsibility you've been entrusted with.

As examples, I believe Shokai has been Immortal longer than much of the staff, but he's not an Implementor. Is this because he's not deserving of the position? Not that I've ever seen, but more the fact that he doesn't *NEED* to be Implementor. Conversely, Zulghinlour is an Implementor. Now, I'm not, nor have ever been involved with CF's administrator, but I expect that's because first, he's put the time in, and quality workmanship to hold that esteem among the Immortals, and as important, being the amount of coding and other more security-intensive work, he *needs* the power to do what he does.

Overall, it seems that you progress from areas, to broader roleplay abilities...while somewhere in there rule duty comes along, and then the highest levels are more technical-oriented. Hence why coders often progress up the ranks quickly, because they have to have the access to the code to do what they do.


Disclaimer: I am in no way officially involved with the Immortal Staff, these are merely my observations from my work elsewhere, and experience as a Heroimm here.

Coding is one area where you can make an impact, but there are many. We've had Implementors that never touched code, and people writing code who were demoted or asked to leave. It's apples and oranges with respect to promotions- if you don't code, there are other places to pitch in and carve out your niche.

To give a counterexample to your theory, Arvam and I have been on staff for roughly the same amount of time, and we've been on similar promotion time tables- there's been times when one or the other of us has been one level different from the other, but that's about it.

I work with Arv a fair bit, but we have somewhat different "footprints"- Arvam does a lot more interaction/questy stuff than I do, but has never touched code to my knowledge. (We also both work on areas, helpfiles, designing stuff, etc.) But if an IMP asked "How does Arvam contribute?", they could list a whole bunch of stuff. They wouldn't say "He doesn't code. Off to the salt mines!" or anything.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

When you say it is team area's job to say "This is not good..."

Now, this is going to sound hypocritical given the post I just made to Velandir, but, if you want feedback to be well received, it is usually better to put a positive spin on it. Just telling people what they did wrong and why it is wrong only works at its best (imho) if people already know they have your respect/appreciation and that you are not oblivious to their good points, and they probably won't know that if you've not given positive feedback as well as negative.

It still gets the point across, but it doesn't make them feel worthless or unappreciated. Just my 5 cents, which may be off base here, but then again, may not.

Have you ever read one of my area reviews?

(I hope the answer is "no", since I've never addressed one to you.)

If you haven't, how do you know how I handle that feedback?

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

There is rampant favoritism in Asgaard. Higher level imms clearly favor those who contribute in some way to the game. But that's really about as deep as it runs. For the most part, everyone gets along. That's not a clique, that's just a good working atmosphere. And everyone, whether they get along well or not, respects each other. I wouldn't say Quezz is shedding some light on hidden sour notes. He's explaining what his own sour notes are. We've lost countless heroimms and higher level imms over the years. And there's almost no bitterness from them. Is everything perfect? No. But it's about as close to it in a working-type atmosphere that I've ever seen. And I've been out of college and in the working world for well over a decade.

Quezz's statements are well written, and well thought out. But he's speaking from his experiences, and how he interpreted them. Reading any more into it isn't worthwhile. Just take it for what it is.

Perspective is what it's all about and from my POV while I was in Asgaard, the CF immstaff is a very well-oiled machine. It's been said a hundred times that being an immortal is a part-time job (without the money) and that's exactly how it is. I don't think anybody should read any conspiracy theories into Quezz's post, as I'm sure that's not what he intends.
And just remember, kids...
Wootie!

I don't really care one way or another about imm conspiracies, since I don't plan on immorting again and don't really believe that imm-morts are any more of a threat to me than any other competant pk'er.

While I was a heroimm, I personally did not observe any favoritism; it was more like a frat initiation--all heroimms were pretty much treated poorly by certain high ranking imms (other high ranking imms, who are no longer with Carrion Fields, were helpful and insightful). Those who were willing to put up with the crap eventually were 'initiated;' those that weren't (read: me) parted ways with immortaldom. Note, this was a long time ago, and Asgaard seems to be a much more sanitized environment than it was back then.

However, Quezz is by no means the first immortal to step down and complain of favoritism and/or 'imm cheating.' Cyradia's diatribe is probably the most famous, but there have been several other complaints from ex-immstaff of favoritism and/or cheating. I never hear about how these things are addressed. Much like the Bush administration, the playerbase is just told 'these things don't really happen' until it's proven they do happen, and then the issues are summarily ignored.

So my question is, do you as an imm really believe that this is all in the mind of Quezzumpliet. That he was, in fact, an underachiever and was treated as such, and was not held back in any way by preference given to another candidate who was part of the 'clique'?

Cyradia's diatribe is probably the most famous, but there have been several other complaints from ex-immstaff of favoritism and/or cheating. I never hear about how these things are addressed. Much like the Bush administration, the playerbase is just told 'these things don't really happen' until it's proven they do happen, and then the issues are summarily ignored.

Except that we have removed people from the staff and demoted people for breaking our internal rules. (Both more recently than Cyradia's departure.) We've also had at least one situation in recent memory where someone's behavior was being investigated (without their knowledge, AFAIK), but decided to leave on their own before a conclusive decision was reached one way or the other.

None of the instances were spectacular, gigantic offenses. No one was using their powers to create super-mortals, putting "loopholes" into code or areas that they could exploit, inducting their other characters into cabals or leadership positions, etc. I think some players would be surprised at how clearly the lines are drawn. Our policy is to take care of those things sooner rather than waiting for them to blossom into something ugly down the road. We're short on friendly warnings.

Saying we "ignore" these issues is utterly unfounded.

That he was, in fact, an underachiever and was treated as such, and was not held back in any way by preference given to another candidate who was part of the 'clique'?

I'll just say that I think the current system works pretty well, and that the people getting the promotions are earning them. It's very easy for me to look at any of the newer immortal midbies and say "Oh. That person was responsible for A, B, C, and D. That person has made a few mistakes along the way, like everyone does, but they learned from those and I'm comfortable with them currently making the decisions appropriate to their rank." Some of these contributions are very visible to the playerbase (History-forum-mania, the Cafepress store, the explore-area Yzekon, all the midbies spearheading cabal interaction, etc.), but there's a laundry list of other projects that are by their nature invisible or anonymous to most players.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

This post was informative, and Shokai's post below I thought was especially well thought out and explained. I think mindset does play a large role in the clique vs workgroup formation.

>Saying we "ignore" these issues is utterly unfounded.

I don't believe I said you ignored the issue of imm cheating. What I said was that in the past you have ignored playerbase issues with imm cheating after it was proven that, yes, it did in fact happen. The discovery that an Imm did in fact have a grudge against Graatch and was using his IP against him, the Eriwal wolverine form custom made by another imm for his friend, a recent emperor being an imm-mort who had direct control over potential class 'abuses' that were only changed after he deleted, those of the immstaff Cyradia was convinced were acting in less-than-scrupulous ways, etc. Ignored may be strong...let's settle for, 'refuse to elaborate on.'

However, I tend to be perhaps overly critical of your posts, Valguarnera. Your above post is actually quiet germane and helpful. Thank you.

In general, if a problem pops up, we don't elaborate on it publically. You might see one fewer Immortal on staff, or back when our levels were visible you might notice someone slipped one, but we don't hang our laundry out there. I'm happy to discuss aspects of the staff situation in general terms, but I don't feel any need to lay out all the specifics.

Of course, when a player cheats, we don't elaborate on it publically either, the exception being if they come here and publically decry the mistreatment that has been visited upon them for "no reason". 90% of rules issues are handled in a completely invisible way. More egregious issues involving the involuntary deletion of a character may be accompanied by global echoes explaining (*) that character's sudden disappearance from the world, but we don't take it further and hash out all the details in public (**).

Trust me when I say you'd have a different appreciation for my opinion of certain players if we did. However, I don't feel any responsibility to do this- it makes it harder for a player to "live down" an incident if the whole world knows about it, and we're interested in seeing people take advantage of second (and third, and...) chances. Busting people down publically tends to close that door.

- Valg

(*): Usually in a ignominious fashion. Given the amount of damage the offending character generally has to do (bad experiences for other players, wasted time of staff members, etc.) to earn that fate, I don't feel bad for them having to "endure" a 2-line posthumous jab. Also, these sorts of incidents do remind the playerbase once in a while that we do pay very close attention to making sure the rules are followed and the game is fair, without spamming them every time someone gets the CF equivalent of a parking ticket.

(**): Note the last word. I am very interested in making sure the people involved in enforcing the rules hear all the details. We're not suckers, and we want to make sure a sixth-time offender isn't given the same leniency a first-time offender would be.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

My post referred to immortal cheaters, not mortal cheaters. I feel a 'special' fate should be awarded to immortals convicted of cheating.

The problem is there is information transparency in the way denied b-field priviledges and public echoes when a mort cheats. When it becomes public knowledge an immortal did something unscrupulous, we never hear about the consequences and more than often the imm in question remains on staff for an extended period of time.

You don't need to respond to this as I think neither you nor any other immortal would ever be willing to make this less opaque. Your other posts remain informative.

When it becomes public knowledge an immortal did something unscrupulous

I'll conclude by saying that CF "public knowledge" is often laughably inaccurate, and based on twelfth-hand rumor.

Tweaking the X-files slogan, "They want to believe."

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

You guys never give us anything official, other than silence. So people fill in the informational void with their speculations and rumors they heard from "someone who knows the imm who got booted" etc etc.

The point is, if you just came out and at least gave us the readers digest version of what went down, none of that would be able to happen.

As already stated:

Trust me when I say you'd have a different appreciation for my opinion of certain players if we did. However, I don't feel any responsibility to do this- it makes it harder for a player to "live down" an incident if the whole world knows about it, and we're interested in seeing people take advantage of second (and third, and...) chances. Busting people down publically tends to close that door.

I'm not sure what line of work you're in, but I've never worked at a place that publically disclosed all the details every time they demoted or fired anyone.

This is especially true when certain players can't let anything go, ever, and complain endlessly about any half-truth they thought was true 10 years ago.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I understand your stance on not making everything public. However, if you're not going to even admit anything happened and just stonewall people, you have to expect people to fill in the gaps for themselves. You disparage the OOC speculations, but seem to forget that without some official statement of fact other than "Nothing happened. Everything is normal.", speculation is all people have.

I'm sure some happy middle ground could be found.

Dude, just chill and quit arguing on people's deletion threads. Valg obviously doesn't think a "middle ground" is required, or even a good thing. Let it go.

The biggest problem with stating specific reasons for specific actions is that it won't matter. Some people are going to believe whatever they want to believe regardless of how wrong it is. Why add to a fire by trying to put one out in someone else's mind?

If you want an example, put an atheist and believer in one room and let them talk religion. No matter what one of them states, the other won't believe it.

Religion and truth aren't even close. The truth can be a known thing, whereas religion is a matter of opinion.

If the imms gave us SOME knowledge of events, we wouldn't HAVE to rely on the "I heard this"ers of the CF community. Sure there would still be some extra speculation, but it would be informed speculation. Sure some people will disbelieve what they are told, but it's better than the absolute surity that we have now that we're being kept in the dark.

The problem with that is that some people will see their side of religion as a truth.

My point being that if said ex-imm states how he feels things went and an active immortal gives a different view, it doesn't matter what the truth is. It will be a matter of opinion just like you stated. People are going to believe what they want.

>The biggest problem with stating specific reasons for
>specific actions is that it won't matter. Some people are
>going to believe whatever they want to believe regardless of
>how wrong it is. Why add to a fire by trying to put one out
>in someone else's mind?
>
>If you want an example, put an atheist and believer in one
>room and let them talk religion. No matter what one of them
>states, the other won't believe it.

I take it you've just never worked in a place that fired anyone nor have you ever fired anyone yourself, because if you did and you still hold this viewpoint, i'm confused.

Do you believe it's right that when rumour has been flying around about professional misconduct and complaints have been made to senior management that it's good practice to turn up to work and find your colleague/manager missing and there is absolutely no explanation why

Do you believe it's right that when rumour has been flying around about professional misconduct and complaints have been made to senior management that it's good practice to turn up to work and find your colleague/manager missing and there is absolutely no explanation why

See, but you're not the CF equivalent of an employee. You're a customer. No business I'm aware of posts public explanations of the firing of employees. It's rude, and bad for staff morale. There might be a private explanation to a customer who was particularly wronged, but there isn't a sign on the door. If no customer was particularly wronged (employee quits to pursue another job, employee is fired for behind-the-scenes incompetence, etc.), then nothing is posted.

And once again, if you do post a public reason, the person will never live it down at your company. You're burning a bridge for no reason.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I think Quezz's said what he had to say and now everyone's just going back and forth and the post has veered way off topic. It's not really getting anywhere productive.

...and yes I said what I needed to in the first post and despite my wishes this thread had degenerated into a useless rehashing of the same old nonsense that we've seen for years. Enough already. If there is still a desire to dicuss these topics, start a new thread and leave the battlefield threads alone, that includes Players and Imms alike. If you have a comment related directly to my post or even *gasp* some well wishing, etc, then please feel free to post. Otherwise take it somewhere else.

--Quezz

>Do you believe it's right that when rumour has been flying
>around about professional misconduct and complaints have been
>made to senior management that it's good practice to turn up
>to work and find your colleague/manager missing and there is
>absolutely no explanation why

That's actually standard practice in a professional US company.

Followup includes either or both:
1) An updated staff roster
2) Memo that simply states they are no longer with us

In CF, we update the staff list and there's a Battlefield post.
Unlike the real world, the departing staff does get to make a
public statement if they choose. Departing staff often supply
their version of "why" within the constraints of their
obligation. If that doesn't appease the gossips, that's really
more an indictment of those people than our policy.

Your workplace experience may deviate from this consensus,
so you might not agree with the model, but that is the model
nonetheless.

I am quite well versed in business, but that is my personal life and something I won't go into directly. From your statement though, you are speaking as if you are upper management and need to be made aware of a business decision.

Our player base is our customer base. To put this into perspective, let's say that you have a pool where you live. You hire a pool service company to take care of your pool. At every service interval, a technician comes out to service your pool. The pool service company is large and has an assortment of technicians that do the servicing. One day, you get a letter from the company stating that a certain technician is no longer employed by the company.

Obviously, if the company was bad to begin with, you would have sought out another one to handle your pool. If you are still using the company, the work must meet your level of satisfaction. If they are meeting your level of satisfaction with keeping your pool in good working condition, you aren't going to give the matter much thought beyond that. (Unless he/she comes back to sabotage your pool.)

By far, and I would be willing to state with a good degree of certainty that the numbers are greater than 99%, that is where the situation ends.

Now, make your pool your character, the technician an immortal and the company the carrionfields staff.

>I'm not sure what line of work you're in, but I've never
>worked at a place that publically disclosed all the
details
>every time they demoted or fired anyone.
>
>[i]This is especially true when certain players can't let
>anything go, ever, and complain endlessly about any
half-truth
>they thought was true 10 years ago.[/i]

 That's an understandable pain in the ass, for you, sure. 
Problem is, if it was true then, it's still a truth, and the
only "doubt" cast on the validity of many claims
comes from the Immstaff side, as Vlad stated, effectively
saying "Look at the Monkey!  That doesn't happen here. 
LOOK AT THE MONKEY."

 CF, for all its wonderful traits, is not run like so much
like a business as a government agency with something to hide.
 Problems, and thusly 'problem people' disappear, aren't
spoken of, are publicly denied or downplayed, and have their
credibility challenged by the very people they may rally
against.

 Through some strange quirk, I have had past & present
contact with many on the CF immortal staff.  I have been
lauded for my good work, or a creative role, like many others
before and since.  I've also received the occasional
"Psst, you're messing up, don't to X like that."   I
have accepted both praise and reprimand as one should,
thankful to know someone's keeping an eye on me, it encourages
me to do better as well. 

 None of that changes facts, however. It's not just players
who wont let go of half-truths.  Some people, even today, are
still shunned for events of many years before, no matter what
changes may have occured.  I know the fate of one of my own
characters was influenced by that, and again as a result of
serious favoritism by another immortal (who may or may not be
fully gone now, I only know that the specific incarnation is
dead) to a negative result.

  These things do happen, and they will likely continue to
happen.  It is something that after many years simply became
evident fact.  I dont have to stick my hand in a fire 12 times
to realize "hmm, this stuff might always be hot".  I
could write off my own personal incidents as "well, bad
stuff happens sometimes", and leave it at that.. if I
hadn't collected the immortal acquaintances that I have over
the years.

  I do not wish to suggest some of you aren't legitimately
beneficial, in some manners.  You are.  You try to hold it
together.. but you're also encouraging and sticking to the
party line, and none of you appears to have the willingness to
discuss the pink elephant in your living room.

 Granted, you're not a government, so you don't exactly have
to answer to the constituents.  Fine.  You're really not a
business either, though, because you don't seem to care about
your customers.  Well, maybe you're MCI Long Distance, but I
doubt it.  If there was nothing to tell people, that'd be one
thing, but there's clearly a lot going on, some of which might
(if it was acknowledged) put some people at peace, to know
that Things Are Happening, and Something Is Being Done About
It.

 People do not keep things hidden if they have nothing to
hide.  Using a real-life comparison- how many years has it
been, and there's still mystery where the JFK incident is
concerned?  It doesn't matter *which* side of the arguments
you support, things were clearly handled in a suspect manner,
and you see the results.

- People do not keep things hidden if they have nothing to
hide.

That's absolutely incorrect.  Sometimes people keep things
hidden because while there's nothing seriously wrong, there's
nothing to gain from revealing them publicly.

- Using a real-life comparison- how many years has it
been, and there's still mystery where the JFK incident is
concerned? 

True.  Forty two years later, we'll likely still be
contributing to this thread.

-It doesn't matter *which* side of the arguments
you support, things were clearly handled in a suspect manner,
and you see the results.

Where do you get that things were handled in a suspect manner?
 How is that in any way clear to anyone?

Anyway.  I hate keeping this thread going.  I don't want to
persuade you, or anyone of anything.  But if you 'clearly'
think things were handled in a suspect manner based on the
'evidence' above, you've clearly bought into imm conspiracy
thinking.  I don't know how that thinking starts, but it's
just wierd to me.  We're good people.  We care about our
players, we care about our game.  We make it better for us,
and we make it better for you.  How we do it really shouldn't
be that important.  But we're a cool, nice bunch of people
(sure, kinda of geeky in a certain way, but who here isn't?),
and we don't screw folks over.  It's just not in our natures. 
And bottom line, it's not good business either.

Khas

In companies, actually, they would rather people know what happened than have wild rumors going around saying the management is a piece of ####. In my own company i would rather tell the truth or a partial version of it, rather than let everyone speculate and splatter whoever with crap, and then have those rumors spread like wild fire.

Players dont let go of anything when they suspect that imms get away with things that players never will. Im not pointing a finger but thats the truth here. Vlad said you never give anything but silence. Thats true. If this tends to be your official answer all the time, then expect people to believe what they want. Live with it.

Nobody ever asked for details about whatever. A general statement made with regard to whoever or whatever, would suffice. No need for trashing, bashing, etc. Dont forget that CF is a rather small community. Word gets around no matter how hard you try to prevent it. Many players would rather hear something from the imms than through the grapevine.

Thats my opinion anyway.

Ha, OK I'll buy your slogan. To tell the truth, I've only heard these things second or third hand from someone who knows someone who is a conspiracy theorist. Fair enough.

>a recent emperor being an imm-mort who had direct control over
>potential class 'abuses' that were only changed after he deleted,

1) I didn't play the character
2) I did make the changes
3) The changes really had little to do with the character so much
as thinking through the pros and cons of solving the 'abuses'
in different ways.
4) I'm getting faster at 3

I'm sorry if that was actually a big source of worry for anyone.
When the changes were made I was actually pretty pleased with
myself, but it looks like I took so long I can't even claim better
late than never.

>Saying we "ignore" these issues is utterly unfounded.

I don't think he meant nothing is done. I think he meant there is still an Official Attitude of "These things do not happen. Look at the monkey. Everything here is fine. Look at the monkey. These things have never happened. LOOK AT THE GODDAMNED MONKEY!". Nothing public is ever said, and denials are still rampant. I can think of a LOT of times people have posted about something, there was an immstaff denial, then events turned out when brought to light to be very much counter to the "Official position". After this is rboguht to light nothing is ever said about it by an immortal, and any mention of said event is quickly removed or discouraged.

"We've also had at least one situation in recent memory where someone's behavior was being investigated (without their knowledge, AFAIK), but decided to leave on their own before a conclusive decision was reached one way or the other."

As far as this goes, I remember even being approached about something going on with some people that played from where I lived. I might even be the guy you are talking about but I can at least verify the fact that the uppers make sure everyone is behaving.

I've got years of observation to back me up here, so I feel pretty confident tossing my opinion out here. Is it *all* in Quezz's mind? No. There are certainly groups of immortals who work together more than others, there are certainly groups of imms who are more social with each other than they are with other imms. However, this is not the formation of a clique. But Shokai! That's the very definition of a clique! Here's the thing, when you view CF (both mortalwise and immortalwise) how you feel about the game colors greatly what you're seeing. In the mortal realms a pk gone wrong if you're in a good place just looks like part of the game and you shrug and get back in it, if you're not in an overly good place that pk could very well lead to rage deletion. There is a similiar vein with immortal land. When things are going well you look around at these 'cliques' and see them as work groups and people who have more in common with each other than they do with you. You see them as not being anti-social, but rather (like any work place) like-minded people chatting over the water cooler. When things aren't going well (and I speak from personal experience here) everything takes a darker turn. If you've got any sort of martyrdom within you, suddenly you see groups forming up all around that exclude you, people getting favortism and thier stuff pushed through before you, and other people climbing the 'corperate' ladder while you sit and go nowhere. So which of the two views is true? That's were perception comes into play. There are times when the bitch of perception is that you don't get to see all the pieces in the puzzle, and when you look at the pieces you've assembled things look far bleaker (or better) than they really are....CF, like any hierarchy is that way. The further up the ladder you are, the more pieces you see, the bigger the picture gets and the more it makes sense. The lower you are, the less you have to look at.

Quezz, I'm sorry to see you go man. You had some rough waters up there, and I remember talking to you right before we nuked Nexus. That probably took the wind out of your sails quicker than anything I've ever seen. I was glad to see you come back and make a stab at it. Sorry it didn't stick for you.

A note for future heroimms, that you can learn from Quezz's experience. 1) Things change slowly behind the scenes. Sure as a mortal something goes *POOF* and a new thing is in place, but behind the scenes that thing could've been in play for months or years. Be wary what plans you have when you immort, and don't hook all your dreams to one idea. 2) You don't get to see the full puzzle when you're a 'wee imm', to quote the Smiths "You just haven't earned it yet, baby", eventually if you stick with it, through the highs and lows...you get to see the bigger picture, and everything starts to make sense.

> Quezz, I'm sorry to see you go man. You had some rough waters
>up there, and I remember talking to you right before we nuked
>Nexus. That probably took the wind out of your sails quicker
>than anything I've ever seen. I was glad to see you come back
>and make a stab at it. Sorry it didn't stick for you.

I'm sorry too. I would still like to be an Imm but I just can't while the circumstances that forced me to leave continue.

I have to say that you are one of the best imms up there and you were certainly one of the reasons I had some positive experiences in my time as an Imm. Thanks.

--Quezz

> For the most part, everyone gets along. That's not a clique,
>that's just a good working atmosphere. And everyone, whether they
>get along well or not, respects each other.

If it were a good working atmosphere myself and others wouldn't have felt the need to quit. A good working atmosphere is all inclusive not selectively inclusive as things are now. As for respect or lack thereof I have already addressed this in my first post.

>I wouldn't say Quezz is shedding some light on hidden sour notes.
>He's explaining what his own sour notes are. We've lost countless
>heroimms and higher level imms over the years. And there's almost
>no bitterness from them. Is everything perfect? No. But it's
>about as close to it in a working-type atmosphere that I've
>ever seen. And I've been out of college and in the working
>world for well over a decade.

As for sour notes I would have to agree, ive not shed any light upon anything new, only expressed what happened to me. If that somehow coincides with or is similiar to what others have felt/expressed then perhaps there is more going on than simple misinterpretations. I myself am not so much bitter as very disappointed that such practicies as I have described continue. However I never intended this to be an ImmBashing post as I have respect for all the imms on some level for what they give to the game. If there is any bitterness it is that that respect was not reciprocated.

>Quezz's statements are well written, and well thought out.
>But he's speaking from his experiences, and how he interpreted
>them. Reading any more into it isn't worthwhile. Just take
>it for what it is.

This is true, it is my interpretation of these experiences, one that happens to have been echoed many times by others.

--Quezz

nt

nt