I decided to leave CF so deletion was the right thing to do. I hate hoarders myself so I didn't want to be one myself. This character was interesting at times. Scion healers are good for solo play since they got something other healers don't - nightwalker. It does quite good damage to killing mobs solo. It can even help in pk though dying to a healer is quite hard to do.

I've had quite a lot of trips to hell with this character. Competent healer is required for them and I hope I was a competent one. Hell was perhaps what let this character live this long and after the last trip I got the impression that Scarabaeus wants everyone to keep out of it changing it all the times. Hell is a place where skill can get you out of a hard situation (like in the last trip when after reboot all devils were tracking us and I almost gave up trying to survive, but we lived and lost only our warrior), other exploration areas either don't worth it or places where skill isn't involved like silent tower. Death trap is a death trap. So I never felt like exploring silent tower.

I met interesting people, mostly in scions. Tikar, Hejduk, Lokilith, Daemelin, Venorsh, Malfius, Szdrak, Bynote, Illijin, Ralemos, Astirath, Sylus, Kanar, Vaustrien, Gaenlin, Khaelben and uhh... a lot others, it was interesting to travel together. We killed a lot together, mobs and playes

Turgesn - Do you remember I wrote that I made a new character after Veshlexiz and that I am out there near you? Heh. I heroed by 90 hours in a week after I deleted my necro.

Sorn - strange character. You whined too much.

Zulghinlour - I figured that coming to your shrine can eventually end up with my unempowerment so I decided not to do it in a while. Didn't feel like talking with you after the last time.

Valguarneara - I played Veshlexiz and Zelthinas in scions and I still honestly don't know what "eternal night is". The whole scion stuff needs clearing up. And don't disappear like that. I thought of asking you for a chancellor position despite my being a healer (since I don't see why exactly a chancellor has to be a mage in the first place - masters are gone, scions aren't all about magic) but that would require adding to the role and thinking it over... ahh lazy me, I never did it.

Jacynth - I never understood what you do in scions.

Out of my enemies I can remember only few who worth mentioning at all.

Intronan - perhaps the only rager who has brains.

Bladjix - I enjoyed your brave svirf with a big polearm. Though sometimes I wondered how you nexites aren't humilitated when first we go raid and smite you and next day you offer me help.

Xillinas and Caelph - Two other brave nexites I liked to see around. When balance was on our side you weren't a big threat anyway

Can't name any outstanding sylvans, warlocks, marans or dawnies.

--
Never argue with an idiot. He will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.

I sort of understand your feeling on Scions. They are hard to figure out. Once you got decked, you were just nasty to fight. Hell, even with earthen and a frying pan I'm sure you were good. Nice job with him.

I was very impressed with you as well. A competent healer makes all the difference, and you proved that easily. I fought you twice (I think). Two healers fighting has to be one of the funniest things to watch.
I felt terrible when two of us took you down while you were link dead. I didn't realize it at the time, and I should have. I left just about everything in your corpse.
You paid me back for the death some time later. Nicely done.

> Valguarneara - I played Veshlexiz and Zelthinas in scions and I still honestly don't know what "eternal night is". The whole scion stuff needs clearing up. And don't disappear like that. I thought of asking you for a chancellor position despite my being a healer (since I don't see why exactly a chancellor has to be a mage in the first place - masters are gone, scions aren't all about magic) but that would require adding to the role and thinking it over... ahh lazy me, I never did it.

I know the feeling, I've played 3 scions and After the first one I thought I new exactly what the eternal night was, and using this information for my other characters interviews proved I had no clue. Someone definetly needs to start educating us.

>Hell was perhaps what let this character live this long
>and after the last trip I got the impression that
>Scarabaeus wants everyone to keep out of it changing it
>all the times.

Changes are never going to change.

Unfortunately that's kind of the nature of the beast. Although
I liked writing the Inferno areas, they seem perpetually
antiquated to me which means I'm always heading in and fixing
things up or updating the areas with more current mud code.
Given the massive size of the areas, the only way to keep
updating them is to do it piecemeal. There's MUD functionality
that we have now that we didn't have 6 years ago when those areas
were written that really allow the area writer to do cool things
that I wish I could have done way back when.

So, if you notice things change in Hell, just keep in mind that
it's something of an organic project. The thinking player should
be fine, though; you'll never see too much change at once simply
because I don't have the time to make changes on a broad scale.

>Hell is a place where skill can get you out of a
>hard situation (like in the last trip when after reboot
>all devils were tracking us and I almost gave up
>trying to survive, but we lived and lost only our
>warrior)...

I was able to peek in on you a couple times while in Hell
and you seemed to be doing fine. If you think any of the changes
broke something (I can't tell if you're implying that change
is bad or what), please let me know via email and I'll take
a look.

either don't worth it or places where skill isn't involved like silent tower. Death trap is a death trap. So I never felt like exploring silent tower.

No skill involved?

Maybe you mean to say that you don't have the kind of skill required?

It's just a game. Taking some risks and blowing a little con won't kill you. God forbid you encounter something that your group leader hasn't seen 20 times before and have to think on your feet for once.

Valguarneara... And don't disappear like that.

I do not recall ever hearing a pray from you, though I can check the logs later. I'm on a ton, though only visible perhaps 20% of the time for various reasons. Most of our other conversations were of the form "So, why could you not get back to defend against this raid?" For a character with Gate and a very strong ability to get back to full strength quickly, you certainly did not hurry to defend the cabal item, even against feasible odds.

I thought of asking you for a chancellor position despite my being a healer

Your name was on The Yellow Post-It Pad, which means you were much closer to an uninduction than a promotion. I watched you several times, and I whole-heartedly agree with Nepenthe's sentiment that I never once saw you do anything that could be construed as a risk. This stood in stark contrast to your role, in my opinion.

...but that would require adding to the role and thinking it over... ahh lazy me, I never did it.

This may be more of the reason why we never spoke. For a character whose role dictated leadership and bold thought, you seemed very content to be quietly on the sidelines, generic enough to let you do whatever you want, playing it safe. While this is a valid character philosophy, I never felt it fit the mold for leadership, quests, or the like.

From the pen of:
valguarnera@carrionfields.com">Valguarnera Trisseptia

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Maybe you should spend a little more time on creating a real cabal rather than putting the names of confused players who have fallen into apathy on a post-it by your computer. The piecemeal quests/interaction really don't seem to be working out. In fact, i'd be willing to say that this evil imm thing just isn't working out. This isn't meant as an insult, but I see your brand of imm leadership panning out a whole lot better as a fortress or sylvan imm. I know quite a few hardened and not so hardened cf vets who have had their fair share of leadership and questing within the past two evil cabals... and they're getting rather fed up. I honestly believe that you would be 100 times more appreciated in the fortress where the cabals are more fleshed out and the players would be a lot happier with the brand of roleplay and interaction doled out by you and Jacynth. Just an opinion, though.

My email feedback from past Chancellors/questees has been largely positive, so either we're hearing different stories, or talking to different people. Feel free to email with specifics or generalities if you think differently.

From the pen of:
valguarnera@carrionfields.com">Valguarnera Trisseptia

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I agree fully with Post-It Man, your style is great and all... but it doesn't fit an evil cabal - not that it seems you or Jacynth want Scion to be evil at all.

This is Salviar saying... Life was better before sliced bread, and when Empire existed instead of Scion (with it's current (everpresent) troubles).

As a longtime player, many times Empire, I would have to say that the current immortal leadership is WAY better than what Turenthean & Agathocles ever did.

That said, I'm not sure I appreciate the added stress of being in the middle of defending against 3-1 odds and then having a voice start questioning my tactics. Try to save the pillow talk for when the fighting stops.

For the record Warlock is basicly also an entirely "The only purpose of the cabal is to do mini-quests for the imm's" direction and it pretty much fails in my opinion also. (Sorry to kick the twins when they're on vacation, but it came up.)

Essentially, if you don't have the same playing time as the twins (what 1-3 hours a night in the wee hours of the morning my local time) you get ZERO immteraction, ZERO quests, ZERO purpose, and ZERO direction. No matter how much you try to be a good Warlock (by your own definition, since no one else will give you one), you still get diddly just because the Imm's aren't watching you (Hey at least Scion has 3 Imm's to interact with who I see on a LOT, we got 1 for all intensive purposes). My lower level Scions feel much the same, either shine real, real bright or might as well go be a thug on Eastern road. (For the record, I'm trying to shine, but it's still early.) Valg even said it himself in response to Waigerits "Average people who don't take risks don't get quests." Doesn't that describe the majority of the people on the mud? If the only way to get direction in Scion or Warlock is direct from the Imm's, are the rest of us just there as fodder?

As a recent player of both Warlocks and Scion I see a lot of similiarities in how they're run. Very little overall direction but a lot of direction to those who interact with the Imm's a lot. That's a small few versus the cabal in general. You cannot run a cabal just by immteraction. It's a great sounding idea, I'm sure it's swell for the handful of mortals on top, I feel it's horrible for the rest of us and morale of the cabal in general.

Say what you want about Nexus, and I have, but at least they have a concrete, measurable, goal that just about any joe shmoe Nexite can work towards accomplishing and very possibly make progress on. I really, really envy that.

2 quick suggestions that came to me when I thought of the Nexus parallel.

1) Warlocks should start losing powers the more necromancers and anti-paladins there are in Thera at the time. (Give them a message "The great taint on magic at present interferes with your powers") Even if they have the grimmoire. Perhaps if there are zero necromancers and Ap's, then give the Warlocks an extra, really nice power (like up ward of deflection by x4 or something) that they'd really miss if a necromancer logged in suddenly. Then you'd see some evil mages being hunted alright. (Instead of number of necromancers and ap's increase the taint by the levels of necromancers and ap's, so that a single level 2 necromancer isn't messing up a dozen hero warlocks.)

2) Scion should similarly lose powers the more paladins, good aligned shamans and healers that exist in Thera. Tie their powers to their actions, and give every Scion a chance to make a difference to the whole cabal. Let every Scion meassurably "extinguish the light and bring darkness" and perhaps that would help out in the general direction bit.

Maybe it's low-brow and hampers rp in some ways, but it's a game, and this game is all about numbers in just about every detail except for cabal interactions. Throwing in some numbers can't hurt all that much.

>This is Salviar saying... Life was
>better before sliced bread, and
>when Empire existed instead of
>Scion (with it's current (everpresent)
>troubles).

While I don't exactly agree with the specific ideas you
mentioned, I do think those suggestions are in the direction of
what the CF cabals really need. However...

The first thing I want to do is point out some key issues of
bullsh-t, this goes for Waigerits, other consistent evil players
like myself, or any person who has complained about the Scion
cabal compared to Empire. The general CF player gives a damn
about RP-ing. The ones that do like it become isolated players
in other cabals such as Sylvans, Warlock, or the Herald. Most
players however want a to have their character get a certain
feeling via the powers they have. Players, like myself, like
tangible effects which reinforces their persona. Empire had
Centurions. I liked Centurions. I felt like an Imperial setting
roadblocks. They were neat, they were different, they actually
felt like something lawful and evil. Same goes for old master
brew and tesseract. Both were useful. Shadow's shadowgate made
my old char feel like a shadow. Hell, speaking of powers, the
tattoo power I got from Vilhazarog when I played Ktavialt was
very RP-correct and useful in its own way, and the way I had
to constantly acquire that power was cool in and of itself. That
hooked me in real good, even made my char more cocky and
arrogant, sort of evil quality. Judging by the way Dariana
described her power from Uller, though I do not know what it
is still, I'm sure that enhanced her belief in the RP quality of
Uller's religion more than most immteraction ever would. And
in contrast, especially for warriors, Scion powers aren't really
extravagent and thats what the players are really complaining
about, despite their claim that its an RP deal.

Though I know nobody will listen to me, knowing that I'd hate
to be told what to do as an IMM or Player, I'm still gonna
give my feedback just to amuse myself.

Players: Don't ##### yourself and say you want better RP. I
know I could miniquest and miniquest my heart out and still be
bored. It just so happened I had never had an assassin and
assassinate is neato, plus having a PK range thats 95% against
you makes it a neat challenge so I stayed.

Immortals: Players are gonna bitch and bitch and bitch about the
RP quality of Scion until you give them neat, different powers
that go with the RP of the cabal. Maran and Warlocks are aimless
as well, its just that they have neat powers (for all classes
that join them, I mean). On the other hand, most of you would do
the same if you were mortals on it too. I know its not your way
to respond to these 'put this power in' posts but we're all
annoying whiny brats when we dont get what we want so you might
wanna do it just to make us shut up.

>The first thing I want to
>do is point out some
>key issues of
>bullsh-t, this goes for Waigerits, other
>consistent evil players
>like myself, or any person who
>has complained about the Scion
>
>cabal compared to Empire. The general
>CF player gives a damn
>about RP-ing. The ones that do
>like it become isolated players

That's an odd statement. I might say otherwise. In a time when people are hoping for quest skills, empowerment, liching, tattooes, I'd say there are some people who give a damn. I'm wondering though if you're looking to make a distinction between those people who roleplay for the pure sake of it versus those players who roleplay to get what they want. In either case, I could make the argument there are plenty of players who give a damn.

>in other cabals such as Sylvans,
>Warlock, or the Herald. Most
>
>players however want a to have
>their character get a certain
>
>feeling via the powers they have.
>Players, like myself, like
>tangible effects which reinforces their persona.
>Empire had
>Centurions. I liked Centurions. I felt
>like an Imperial setting
>roadblocks. They were neat, they were
>different, they actually
>felt like something lawful and evil.

I loved the Empire concept, but the player base really had a hard time pulling it off with any consistency. Was the Empire supposed to be hand holding evils like the Genofen reign? Or was it supposed to be backstabbing, put your own goals ahead of the Empire persona. It was difficult to establish in which direction the Empire was supposed to go.

But I agree with your assertion.. going for specific powers can really enhance the experience.


>Same goes for old master
>
>brew and tesseract. Both were useful.
>Shadow's shadowgate made
>my old char feel like a
>shadow. Hell, speaking of powers,
>the
>tattoo power I got from Vilhazarog
>when I played Ktavialt was
>
>very RP-correct and useful in its
>own way, and the way
>I had
>to constantly acquire that power was
>cool in and of itself.
>That
>hooked me in real good, even
>made my char more cocky
>and
>arrogant, sort of evil quality. Judging
>by the way Dariana
>described her power from Uller, though
>I do not know what
>it
>is still, I'm sure that enhanced
>her belief in the RP
>quality of
>Uller's religion more than most immteraction
>ever would. And
>in contrast, especially for warriors, Scion
>powers aren't really
>extravagent and thats what the players
>are really complaining
>about, despite their claim that its
>an RP deal.

How would you change it? In a cabal where the warriors are looked upon as a second class, what would you do differently. IMHO, you'd have to change the complexion of the Scion cabal if you're looking to give warriors some enhanced ability. To be honest, I'm not even sure what powers they get anymore.

>Though I know nobody will listen
>to me, knowing that I'd
>hate
>to be told what to do
>as an IMM or Player,
>I'm still gonna
>give my feedback just to amuse
>myself.
>
>Players: Don't ##### yourself and say
>you want better RP. I
>
>know I could miniquest and miniquest
>my heart out and still
>be
>bored. It just so happened I
>had never had an assassin
>and
>assassinate is neato, plus having a
>PK range thats 95% against
>
>you makes it a neat challenge
>so I stayed.
>
>Immortals: Players are gonna bitch and
>bitch and bitch about the
>
>RP quality of Scion until you
>give them neat, different powers
>
>that go with the RP of
>the cabal. Maran and Warlocks
>are aimless
>as well,

How is the Brigade aimless?

>its just that they
>have neat powers (for all
>classes
>that join them, I mean). On
>the other hand, most of
>you would do
>the same if you were mortals
>on it too. I know
>its not your way
>to respond to these 'put this
>power in' posts but we're
>all
>annoying whiny brats when we dont
>get what we want so
>you might
>wanna do it just to make
>us shut up.

I guess you're trying to say the level of rp goes up when there are things the player base can get out of it. It's like roleplaying enough to get into the Maran cabal so you can have all sorts of fun powers. It's roleplaying enough to get that tattoo with the really cool powers associated with it. Is this pretty close?

Okay I didn't relate my point very well in my last post, so let
me try again.

The main thing Waigerits said was that he didn't understand what
the "Eternal Night" is about. I seemed to think that it was very,
very easy to figure out. The Eternal Night is about bringing
darkness/evil to this world, primarily through its dark sorcerors
and cohorts, and bringing new dark magics. The assault of Udgaard
on Ofcol was one thing that was supposed to be related to the
Eternal Night's workings. Very simple. Please tell me if you
disagree. People complain about the general cookie cutter evil
Scion that they do not wanna play by being Scion, but think about
the Maran's role. Kill evil. Dawn's.. save people. Battle's...
kill mages. That's very general and cookie cutter to me, much
more so in comparison to Scion. So why aren't people bitching
about Dawn, Maran, Battle, Sylvan, as much as Scion? I am
certain it revolves a lot about the type of roles to play and
the skills that back it up.

Non-evils, in a sense, do not need skills as much as evils to
keep them from complaining. I remember on dio's log board that
somebody posted some weird, funny thing that happened in the Fortress about them acting goofy. It ended with the person who
posted it saying "Now I remember why I always play lightwalkers."
Neat. This is one of the things that non-evils subsist on, to
keep them from complaining (and deleting). There are exceptions,
but they subsist on other things.

The exceptions are the good aligns and other, most often neutral
characters (occasional evil Ehren or Scarab) that do have a
well-designed role which does not allow them to act like idiots
for their fun. Now I've never played a good aligned, or have
associated with these people in ways other than fighting them..
but.. Parcimius, Anterrabae, Leika, Armand, many Paladins, and
Sylvans of all classes, all very powerful race/class/cabal or religion combos that generally cannot be evil, all
tend to either A) Spend almost all their time exploring, or
B) Have an extremely powerful character who tears everybody to
shreds, or both. And.. ahem.. not to say any of these characters
were unskilled, in fact I think most of the above are pretty
decent, but it really doesn't take much skill with a character
like that to rip people to shreds. Can't do what you did as a
Scion Warrior, just can't. Sure you can be a mace spec and tear
some people down, but if any of the above strictly non-evil
combos come around your toast. A paladin who stays sanced and
can spam wrath has nothing to fear from an evil warrior, not to
say that any of the paladins aren't skilled, but that just makes
it even more impossible.

Now back to my actual point.. I strayed off a bit but I thought
it was needed. The whole idea is to fulfill some sort of role,
but skills need to be there to back them up when it comes to
evils. Evils need to be feared to complete their roles. How
can you dominate if you can't tear down the average Fortress-er?
The above-mentioned classes dominate the PK list for evils. Its
rough. Scion Warrior types are near useless for PK. Conjurers
with Archons are impossible to kill, Paladins are very powerful,
Shapeshifters were bulked up so they could beat Ragers so how the
hell is a Scion Warrior going to kill them? I mean #####, Scions,
and especially the warriors/priestly classes, need to get their
skills upped so they can be powerful. I dunno im tired writing
now.

I think your view is somewhat biased, and you'd benefit from playing a good aligned. This is off the original topic, but I have to disagree with most of what you said. For example:

>but
>think about
>the Maran's role. Kill evil.


I promise you, if you roll up a character with that as the extent of your role and motivations, you will never get inducted/empowered/tattoo'd by Shokai. The Carrion Fields Graveyard is filled with people who thought just like you and gave up trying after 70 hours or so of failing to get inducted.




>but.. Parcimius,

31% PK ratio - did do exploring, though.

> Anterrabae,

I think he was around 50% PK ratio. - but did do exploring.

>Leika,

Unknown, but has there been a Paladin nearly as successful?


>Armand,

66% PK ratio. Apparently people thought he was a good RPer, though. Doubt he did much exploring.

>many Paladins,


Falthule was the most dangerous recent one I can think of:

69% PK ratio. Best in your list, but he obviously had to suck up deaths for his role.

>tend to either A) Spend almost
>all their time exploring, or
>
>B) Have an extremely powerful character
>who tears everybody to
>shreds, or both. And.. ahem.. not
>to say any of these
>characters
>were unskilled, in fact I think
>most of the above are
>pretty
>decent, but it really doesn't take
>much skill with a character
>
>like that to rip people to
>shreds.


They didn't exactly "rip people to shreds." In general, the list of people you gave died almost as often as they killed - some of them probably brought about by having to make sacrafices for their role (something evil chars don't generally have to do). I think that good aligneds might be more difficult to play than you think. Would you like me to list a few ratios of evil characters to compare?


>Can't do what you did as a Scion Warrior, just can't.


Any non-rager warrior has it hard at Hero range. What non-rager, non-Scion warriors do you see tearing people a new one with these amazing cabal powers? (talking about at least 80% ratio w/over 100 kills).


>A paladin who stays sanced and can spam wrath has nothing to
>fear from an evil warrior, not to say that any of the paladins
>aren't skilled, but that just makes it even more impossible.
>

How much does a spectre with zombies have to fear from a Dawnie warrior - or a non-rager warrior in general?

How much does the average Anti Paladin have to fear from a Dawnie warrior?

There are exceptions (competence on the warrior's part), but then there are exceptions for who the Paladin should fear, as well. (the rule that anyone that thinks they have "nothing to fear" is going to die to a class that can lag). But still, in general, it's a warrior thing. That's part of the challenge in playing them.




>but skills need to be there
>to back them up when
>it comes to
>evils. Evils need to be feared
>to complete their roles. How
>
>can you dominate if you can't
>tear down the average Fortress-er?
>


So skills should make up for lack of competence? You'd trade Nightwalker/cabal-load of people aiming to PK for Golden Aura/cabal-load of people averting PKs? Scion Warriors aren't suffering compared to their good-aligned counterparts.

Those kind of roles aren't things that you should be able to assume - they are something you have to EARN through your competence and ability, not through getting enough extra powers until you can dominate. Fortress warrior-powers are not overpowered compared to Scion-warrior powers, especially if you consider the extra sacrafices that Fortress warriors have to make.


>Scion Warrior types are near
>useless for PK.


Same with non-Scion (non-rager, too) warriors.


>Conjurers
>with Archons are impossible to kill,


Same with non-Scion (non-rager, too) warriors.


>Paladins are very powerful,


Ok, that's not the same. But Anti-Paladins are very powerful. Liches and necromancers are very powerful. It's possible that it's been too long since you had to face a decent necromancer and you forgot how dangerous they are.


>Shapeshifters were bulked up so they
>could beat Ragers so how
>the
>hell is a Scion Warrior going
>to kill them?

How is a non-Scion (non-rager, too) warrior going to beat them?

Again, a warrior of any cabal, any alignment, except Rager, is going to face huge challenges at Hero range. It's not just a "Scion thing."

Seriously, if you think it is so easy, please, roll up a good align warrior (non-rager) with the "kill evil" roll and test your assumptions. You'll find yourself facing the same challenges as a Scion warrior - and perhaps other things you didn't even consider.

>>but
>>think about
>>the Maran's role. Kill evil.
>I promise you, if you roll up a character with that as the >extent of your role and motivations, you will never get >inducted/empowered/tattoo'd by Shokai. The Carrion Fields >Graveyard is filled with people who thought just like you and >gave up trying after 70 hours or so of failing to get inducted.

I didn't say that was the extent of the role. You can fancy up
your role, and probably have to in order to get in, but am I
wrong in saying that killing evil and not harming good in the
process of it are the only strict guidelines all Marans -must-
abide with? I didn't say that is all that you -should- have as
your role to get in, but that is all that you -must- have.

>>but.. Parcimius,
>31% PK ratio - did do exploring, though.
>> Anterrabae,
>I think he was around 50% PK ratio. - but did do exploring.
>>Leika,
>Unknown, but has there been a Paladin nearly as successful?
>>Armand,
>66% PK ratio. Apparently people thought he was a good
>RPer, .though. Doubt he did much exploring.
>>many Paladins,
>Falthule was the most dangerous recent one I can think of:
>69% PK ratio. Best in your list, but he obviously had to suck >up deaths for his role.

I have a real good idea as to how this is true. I believe a much
higher percentage of evils are more competent at the higher ranks
than their good counterparts for a number of reasons. Good aligns
tend to range all the way from super-powerful to very weak
potential unholy blessed weapon charges. Most evil's PK ratios
get much better because they tear the ##### outta these weak
good-aligns. Good aligned heroes, on the other hand, have to deal
with a PK range of evils who are generally very well skilled. I
had played a handful of good aligned chars long long ago, and
from what I remember leveling was a million times easier. Most
of the evil mobs are vulnerable to easy to come by wrathing
weapons, Paladins are generally numerous, and are great for
leveling with, and people -will- help you. Evils on the other
hand, especially classes like Necromancers, have a real real
hard time leveling, not to mention that if you aren't good, there
is a chance your group will kill you and bring on a new third.
Evil heroes generally don't help evil groups rank. It's hard to
gain levels unless you have friends, and, heh, even if you do,
they still ditch you. I've only done that once and that one
time I still got ditched because the class I was playing wasn't
as good in a group as the new third. That's also a good reason
why people complain about the 30-40's being evil dominated. I
bet it wouldn't be as bad if it was as easy for evils to rank
as goods.

Anyways, went off on a tangent there, the whole point of that was
explaining why the PK ratios aren't as great. Evils get a lot of
easy kills by less than skilled goods that were carried through
the ranks.

>Seriously, if you think it is so easy, please, roll up a good >align warrior (non-rager) with the "kill evil" roll and test >your assumptions. You'll find yourself facing the same >challenges as a Scion warrior - and perhaps other things you >didn't even consider.

Okay, maybe it seemed like I meant it, but I didn't say it wasn't
hard to be good aligned. The main point is that, playing evils,
you -have- to be fairly good to even survive. Evils tend to be
more PK oriented. We face enemies with generally much greater
powers that are more suitable for PKing than Scions. Fortress
had Sylvan allies that would always sit outside when I still
had both Kravidian and Vaustrien, and if you were snared, unless
they screwed up horribly, you were dead. Its just real real easy
to die as an evil so in essence im saying we have to try %150
harder to get the same as most goods have to, and in a lot of
cases, it's damn near impossible to survive. I'm sure its tough
to be that good-aligned non-rager warrior but as I was saying
in an earlier post PK-ing is almost all evil's got to keep them
entertained so they need to be good at it, not to mention if
they get waxed so much they lose a lot more clout than goods.
anyways I had more to say but im tired of writing again.

You brought up good points but I still think I'm right.

Evils tend
>to be
>more PK oriented. We face enemies
>with generally much greater
>powers that are more suitable for
>PKing than Scions.

THis hasn't always been the case, and to be honest I don't have a whole lot of sympathy. The good aligned characters really went through something similar to this during the time that spaned the collapse of the Knight cabal through the creation of Dawn. Only when a few players decided to really push the Maran religion, and the creation of the fortress did things really start to shift.

Bringing us to the present, there is alot to be said about the fact that current Scions are deleting at a rather quick rate. You can't deny the fact that there have been a couple of points when the Scion cabal was truly dominant. They'd gain some momentum, and then through a large number of deletes be back where they started. Is this because there really isn't a lot for evils to do, or are the people who decide to play these evil characters don't have the patience for it. A group of good aligned characters got together (outside of IRC mind you), and really managed to make a push for the creation of a Maran cabal. Do the people who play evil characters want the Scion role handed to them on a silver platter or do they want to help shape it.

Heh, I don't know if i responded to anything.. just wanted to get this off my chest.

Toodles.

You can't
>deny the fact that there
>have been a couple of
>points when the Scion cabal
>was truly dominant. They'd gain
>some momentum, and then through
>a large number of deletes
>be back where they started.

Scion has only ever been dominant through characters played by three or four 'cheating fucks' (myself included).

>Is this because there really
>isn't a lot for evils
>to do, or are the
>people who decide to play
>these evil characters don't have
>the patience for it. A
>group of good aligned characters
>got together (outside of IRC
>mind you), and really managed
>to make a push for
>the creation of a Maran
>cabal. Do the people who
>play evil characters want the
>Scion role handed to them
>on a silver platter or
>do they want to help
>shape it.

Honestly, I don't play to take part in a creative writing competition. Hand me a role and I'll play it while I slaughter mindlessly. Ask me to think up some original crap but tell me what I come up with is worthless because it doesn't involve enough tea time and I'll get irritated.

Your right, the Knight times were definitely very, very
bad for good-aligns. The major group that fought evils
(predominantly Shadow/Master were the evil cabals), were the
Ragers. I really had sympathy back then for all the good-aligns
that used to get reamed, pre-Empire/Sylvan, however, it was
incredibly frustrating as an Imperial during about the last
2/3rds of its existence.
1) You had a shitload of Ragers during that time, who all were
'berserkers' by default.
2) 3/4ths of your own cabal were almost not permitted to assist
you.
3) The powers weren't comparable to any other cabal's (except
Dawn).
4) You had a nearly unbeatable enemy, Sylvans, with obscene
advantages with their Shamans who consistently hid out in Balator
unseen with groups and summoned you if you tried to travel
to/from the Citadel/Palace, not even mentioning the danger if
there was a druid who could plant growth. You were dead no matter
what if they summoned you.
5) Agorinth declared war on Masters halfway through, and with the
overload of lightwalker Conjurers that were there, that really
did hurt. I remember him and Sevietrem being nightgaunted plenty
of times without any way out of it.

This lasted for about 1 1/2 years real time before Empire was
removed and Scion came. Sure I may not have had sympathy for
evils at about the middle of Empire but I think it's about time
for it to shift. Evil dominations never last long. When we
finally do win we're bored and delete, shoving us back into the
hole again, which is why I'm pro-evil cabals with greater powers
and much less members.

>You brought up good points but
>I still think I'm right.
>

Yeah, I once thought you were 100% correct on the motivations of the people who play evil-align characters. From my biased view of playing so many good align characters, I lumped all the evil-aligns into a power-gaming/multi-killing/newbie-preying/no-roleplaying/delete-at-under-100-hours/mIRC-cheating ball. Since then, though, I've played a few evil align characters, and I recognize that that old view doesn't describe all of them, and that there are many evil characters out there that exist for more than racking up cheap no-skill kills through gangbangs or whacking the crap out of players less skilled than they - and that many of these evil aligns don't whine and bitch and delete under 100 hours when they lose to someone that "sucked" or they die in the same way that they've killed hundreds of hapless goodies. You're actually one of the players that I'd say is absolutely not this way.

Now it almost seems like you're telling me that my old view was correct?

Huh. Well, I know you're not saying that

Anyway, that all aside, I agree with everything else you said. Goods have a much easier time ranking, Goods have a more challenging array of foes at Hero. And right now the PK ranges between interesting (when there are powerful Scions) and boring (when these Scions delete). But I'd like you to consider this:

Why did the early Maran (before the Maran cabal) stick around? We had no uber-powers. We had no cabal. The only other good cabal was very non-agressive and had/have zero PK-ing powers themselves. We had an oppressive cabal of PKers (Empire) running around out there. One Maran to date (as far as I know) has received ANY kind of quest form or skill or reward (a paladin got a third virtue) so there's no extra powers for roleplaying to consider in there. Shokai admits he's often busy, so there's not 24/7 Immteraction. We didn't play silly hide-and-go-seek games in Tar Valon, we sought out and faced the "evil badasses" - so there's no "entertainment value" there. Now, given that we liked PK-ing as much as evil aligns, why wouldn't we delete if we weren't getting rewarded with extra powers (like you suggest evil aligns are) and faced enemies that outclassed us with their powers (like you suggest evil aligns are)?**

Maybe your Scion cabal needs that kind of mortal-player drive. Because if you think the Maran cabal and goals were just handed to us, you're wrong.

** My answer is because our roles and motivations were more than "kill evil." "Kill evil" would have only taken us through 100 hours, if that.

I like your ideas about losing powers etc as a motivator.

One possible problem I can see with it is that the poor single necro who logs on will have to contend with a lot of warlocks out for his blood, and their powers will be nearly at full. Conversely, when loads of necros are on, the warlocks will be most poorly equiped to deal with it.

My suggested solution to this would be to implement the power drain you suggest, but make it so that it doesn't apply when fighting necros, APs etc. (ie don't handicap the warlocks when they're actually trying to do their job, but do handicap them if they're not).

>I agree fully with Post-It Man,
>your style is great and
>all... but it doesn't fit
>an evil cabal - not
>that it seems you or
>Jacynth want Scion to be
>evil at all.


I'll admit that the whole Jacynth thing does *not* make any sense to me whatsoever. I'd be more inclined to suggest that if Scion needs another cabal immortal that Jacynth should have "re-morted".

As for Valguarnera's style, what is your definition of evil? Post-it man and you both say his style doesn't fit the cabal. Some of the other respondents are complaining that the Scion role hasn't been flushed out. So, which is it?

Zulghinlour isn't exactly a maniacal evil immortal now is he? Does he fit within the cabal?

In some respects, Valg has to remain true to the character before he immorted. Valg wasn't a bloodthirsty thug like most of the current Scions.

Give it some time.. provide some suggestions.

I think Jacynth is fine and dandy for scion.

Approx a week before Jacynth became evil i had my first incarnation of my role which makes mention of Elves of the style of Jacynth and how they come about. Ie. a description of how drow came about.

Of course i've deleted the incarnation twice for lack of time but i just thought i'd chip in that Jacynth is fine for becoming evil. Lettings ones passion for stuff lead you down a one way street is a perfect result.

A: People who are dissatisfied are unlikely to e-mail you, they'll likely just start something new or ignore it, this is a hobby after all...

B: Chancellors are a very very small percentage of the playerbase to site as an example... in addition to the fact that those seeking that sort of position are prolly already on your side.

C: I'm taking this general opinion from the forums, irc, and discussions i've had ic with other players who are fed up and about to delete. Some of them might be the same people, i'm not really keeping track... but it seemed significant enough to bring up.

>A: People who are dissatisfied are
>unlikely to e-mail you, they'll
>likely just start something new
>or ignore it, this is
>a hobby after all...


How long does it take to send an email with ideas? Maybe while you or Salviar are rolling up the "something new", you can write an email to Valg with your suggestions.

I think the real problem is that you don't have any ideas for solutions. That you can't remember why Shadow was "so great." That's fine if you don't, but recognize that Valg is giving you an opportunity to contribute constructive suggestions - and how great is that to be able to lift yourself out of the pit of pointless complaining?

>
>B: Chancellors are a very very
>small percentage of the playerbase
>to site as an example...
>in addition to the fact
>that those seeking that sort
>of position are prolly already
>on your side.
>


Why are there "sides" in this, exactly? Valg has no "side." Again, if you want to see it that way, then he is offering your "side" an opportunity to give some input.


>C: I'm taking this general opinion
>from the forums, irc, and
>discussions i've had ic with
>other players who are fed
>up and about to delete.
> Some of them might
>be the same people, i'm
>not really keeping track... but
>it seemed significant enough to
>bring up.

Well, the next step after bringing up a problem is to offer constructive solutions to the problem. That's how we problem solve.

After wading through all the pointless brown-nosing in your post, I found nothing constructive! I think there's an alanis morisette song about this..

>After wading through all the pointless
>brown-nosing in your post, I
>found nothing constructive!

Constructive idea #1:

"Maybe while you or Salviar are rolling up the "something new", you can write an email to Valg with your suggestions."


Constructive idea #2:

"I think the real problem is that you don't have any ideas for solutions. That's fine if you don't, but recognize that Valg is giving you an opportunity to contribute constructive suggestions"

Constructive idea #3:

"Why are there "sides" in this, exactly?"

Why don't you drop your attitude? Valg wants to make Scion better. You *claim* to want to make Scion better. What different sides are you seeing to this?

Constructive idea #4:

"Well, the next step after bringing up a problem is to offer constructive solutions to the problem. That's how we problem solve."

Who, exactly, are you brown nosing to? I sense an ulterior motive or a big axe to grind with you.

First- It's not constructive to tell someone else to be constructive. It's just stupid.

Second- Scion has no structure and no clear goal. Maybe that makes for lots of cookie cutter characters... but what's wrong with that? It's better than a bunch of no-goal no-direction characters. Empire had a clear, simple goal, and was highly structured. It seems to me that ALL cabals *except* Scion have a clearly defined goal-- something the characters that don't want to do nothing but scream for immortal interaction can do.

Warders: Kill defilers, protect the wilds, etc.
Entropy: Be chaotic.
Dawn: Save stuff.
Maran: Kill evil stuff.
Warlock: Kill evil magic stuff.
Arbiter: Protect newbies in cities.
Battle: Be tactical, kill magic.
Scarab: Free your will and everyone else's.
Scion: Bring.. uh.. eternal.. night.


Having a cabal with no easily defined goal isn't going to create more people that put 100% of their effort into roleplaying. It's going to make the people that put 50% (with the other 50% into pk) look bad and disappoint.

- Salvia

Second- Scion has no structure and no clear goal. Maybe HAVING A CLEARLY DEFINED DIRECTION makes for lots of cookie cutter characters... but what's wrong with that? It's better than a bunch of no-goal no-direction characters. Empire had a clear, simple goal, and was highly structured. It seems to me that ALL cabals *except* Scion have a clearly defined goal-- something the characters that don't want to do nothing but scream for immortal interaction can do.

>Warders: Kill defilers, protect the wilds,
>etc.
>Entropy: Be chaotic.
>Dawn: Save stuff.
>Maran: Kill evil stuff.
>Warlock: Kill evil magic stuff.
>Arbiter: Protect newbies in cities.
>Battle: Be tactical, kill magic.
>Scarab: Free your will and everyone
>else's.
>Scion: Bring.. uh.. eternal.. night.

For the sake of argument, can we extend the one-line summations to include Scion?

Scion: Kill wealthy stuff. Gather wealth and exert power over all others.

I am basing this on the helpfile:

"a group of black-hearted souls whose PURSUIT OF POWER"

"Driven by pursuits of SORCERY, DECEPTION, or MANIPULATION, they are all reflective of the dark and twisted nature of the Eternal Night. They BOW TO NO MASTER and FEAR NO DEED THAT WILL GET THEM TO THEIR GOALS (pursuits of sorcery and power). The power of the Scions resides with their wizards."

I capitalized the parts that seemed particularly clear in directing me toward the Scion goals. The goals are defined as:

1. Pursuit of Power. (Wealth, over other individuals, over other cabals, over nations). This can fall under "kill good stuff, gather wealth and exert power over others."

2. Pursuit of Magics and Sorcery. Like the old Masters, Scions should be the greatest and most knowledgable mages in the game. Nothing should remain a secret to them for long.

Now whether these are interesting goals or not, I can't answer, but they seem as directed as any of the others that you listed. It's kind of up to the players to live up to them and bring power and wealth to the Chasm.

>Scion: Kill wealthy stuff. Gather wealth and exert power over all others.

That sounds like Empire to me. Go try and play a Scion that kills wealthy stuff (watch out for uninduction, don't loot anyone with your nightwalker), gains power, and exerts that power over others, or show me one that does that .. and then find out to what end this gained power goes. What do you want the power for? Each Scion wants it for a different thing. The ushering in of "Eternal Night?"

We can say it's just half empire/half master (power, manipulation/sorcery), but it's not. Empire wanted to build civilizations. Scion wants to build more.. holes in the ground. Or something. Master's goals seemed to sway from leader to leader, but with the rise of the "miniquest," most of the Scion cabal is left high and dry. I guess the player who doesn't put 100% into roleplaying doesn't deserve to be a part of it, though.

As long as we're quoting the helpfile... "Driven by pursuits of sorcery, deception, or manipulation, they are ALL REFLECTIVE OF THE DARK AND TWISTED NATURE OF ***THE ETERNAL NIGHT***."

Now tell me what Eternal Night is. These black-hearted souls are reflective of it, and sorcery/deception/manipulation might have something to do with it.. and uh, nightwalkers.. portals..

I forgot a one line summation for Nexus (which I think is a fucking great cabal idea).

Nexus: Keep things balanced, try to make sure good, fun fights take place.

- Salvia

>>Scion: Kill wealthy stuff. Gather wealth and exert power over all others.
>
>That sounds like Empire to me.
> Go try and play
>a Scion that kills wealthy
>stuff (watch out for uninduction,
>don't loot anyone with your
>nightwalker), gains power, and exerts
>that power over others, or
>show me one that does
>that .. and then find
>out to what end this
>gained power goes. What
>do you want the power
>for?


Well, you were looking for an easy direction for the half-involved people to take. Something like "kill evils" for Maran. Or "protect newbies in cities" for Arbiters. I think the people that would find these one-line directions useful really wouldn't put thought into things like "why do we kill evils?" or "what do we want this power for?" For the half-involved, I think it's fine.

Each Scion wants
>it for a different thing.
>The ushering in of "Eternal
>Night?"
>
>We can say it's just half
>empire/half master (power, manipulation/sorcery), but
>it's not.


Well, ok, first, let me ask you this:

What was the original goal of Shadow? Did you find Shadow to be a fleshed out cabal?

Second, and maybe you disagree with me on this, I always saw Scion as an Illuminati-type of organization. A gathering of twisted men and women who are among the most wealthy and powerful and successful, and are driven to pursuing their own wealth, power, and success at any cost - and this drive binds them together. They deal in mystic and dark arts to pursue these ends, and the "goal" changes. At one point they wait for the planets to align so that they can aid the dark child to be born. At another point they stand in the way of a good hero trying to slay an ancient monster. At another point they plot the downfall of a minor country through subterfuge - all to bring them more power. And I think this is where these "mini quests" come in. It would be ideal if these "goals" would be player-generated by the Chancellors, but... oh well.

The only problem I see with this is the mass induction standards of the Scion cabal. The Illuminati are an elite organization. And I guess you do have a point that all the "fodder" are left out of the driving goals of the moment for the Scion cabal - treated like tools and thugs to go out and harness power and obey the commands of the elite. ("gather wealth and power and exert influence over others").

I guess you're saying that you're not content with the "mini-goal" of being Scion, and irritated with being left out of the "driving goals" that shift from time to time. And to this I can only say, yes, Empire was a kick ass idea for a cabal, but Empire failed because too many people didn't want to make the sacrafices necessary to maintain the roleplay of it. And, further, if you want the Empire back ... why not roleplay bringing it back with your friends? Why not name yourselves Sect Heads and work to rebuild its influence until an Immortal patron takes notice and makes it so?


>I guess the player who doesn't
>put 100% into roleplaying doesn't
>deserve to be a part
>of it, though.
>


I can't say. I can only say I wasn't part of any quests, myself.


>As long as we're quoting the
>helpfile... "Driven by pursuits of
> sorcery, deception, or manipulation,
>they are ALL REFLECTIVE OF
>THE DARK AND TWISTED NATURE
>OF ***THE ETERNAL NIGHT***."
>
>Now tell me what Eternal Night
>is. These black-hearted souls
>are reflective of it, and
>sorcery/deception/manipulation might have something to
>do with it.. and uh,
>nightwalkers.. portals..
>





>I forgot a one line summation
>for Nexus (which I think
>is a fucking great cabal
>idea).
>
>Nexus: Keep things balanced, try to
>make sure good, fun fights
>take place.
>
>- Salvia

Yeah, I want to make one myself.

Really, this isn't the appropriate forum for this discussion, but I'm going to keep it brief. We (Valg, Zulg and I) are working really hard on giving Scion some direction and shape which everyone has been asking for. There will be changes to come. Please keep this in mind before you post again that Scion needs direction. We are aware of this and we are doing something about it. However, if you have some ideas about what direction it should take, as always, we are open to suggestions and will gladly take them into consideration while we make our way through this planning stage. Until then, bear with us and do what you can IC to make it the cabal you want it to be.

I'l agree to this piecemeal quest bit. CF quests have been taking a downward turn for quite a long time. Gone are the days of big huge quests with half the mud involved where any player could get involved and have fun. Now the quests are much more controlled, now days imms not only decide where and when they will play out but who will be involved. There are more and more quests directed at specific characters who have impressed the immortal. Now not that this is a bad thing in general, but there are tons of players who hoard quest info like people hoard eq. People do not wish to share the limelight and the immteraction so the limited immortal quest attention is further limited by people keeping everyone else out of the loop. Only problem with this is that when that one person that had been hoarding the quest info loses interest the quest dies and the immortals behind it get frustrated and walk away as well. Best example would be Thror's little quest with the hammer. When the quest's prime player that elf warrior leader deleted everything went to hell in a hand basket. I tried working the quest with my leader but ended up getting frustrated and letting it go. In the end an immortal had to intervene in an ic manner so as to rescue Thror's character. Although I must say that was a poorly planned quest from the get go.
Valg case in point the quest that you and jacynth had been working on. The one with the matron mother... il leave the rest of the details out of it in case its still going. You directed this quest at one player who was given the chance to involve others into it if he felt like it. Well he didnt, he involved the other leaders to an extent but didnt involve any of the cabal or other evil cabals into it. When he stopped showing up...and then later deleted. Well you know where all that hard work went. That was quite possibly the one quest that would have given scion a definitive sense of identity. But you guys muddled that up by directing the quest at 2-3 people instead of the entire cabal.

I know you all are very eager to shed the old school cf face and all. But lets not throw away the baby with the bath water here. There was a reason old school cf quests kicked so much ass and you had people posting on the forums for weeks and months about what a good job the imms did. Viva la Ol' Skool!!!!!

Much Love


Acidic Parv

>Best
>example would be Thror's little
>quest with the hammer. When
>the quest's prime player that
>elf warrior leader deleted everything
>went to hell in a
>hand basket. I tried working
>the quest with my leader
>but ended up getting frustrated
>and letting it go. In
>the end an immortal had
>to intervene in an ic
>manner so as to rescue
>Thror's character. Although I must
>say that was a poorly
>planned quest from the get
>go.

Actually...it fell to a dwarf Arbiter hand/dagger spec warrior (who killed LOTS of ragers) to do the quest(Fuath)...most often without rager help. And I know for a fact that Fuath was NOT played by an immortal.

That is...if I remember right. Maybe fuath deleted before Thror actually got saved and what you are refering to happened after that...shrug...I go out of my way to ignore any village/thror goings on since the whole "Minalcar-who's-only-purpose-was-to-use-ooc/imm knowledge-to-kill-fellow-ragers" thing.

I dont agree with any comment saying that you were 'cowardly' or whatever. I remember attacking the nightwalker with a group of 2 or 3 others and having you kick our butts with your bevy of demon elementals, shaw tabbies, ect. (You posted the log...I was the alligator.)

You were the only healer I ever saw in game who I had fear of...

Well done, and dont bother listening to the bitter folk.

Hrm?