Tue Sep 22 14:47:33 2015

At 4 o'clock PM, Day of the Sun, 34th of the Month of the Frost Giant
on the Theran calendar Aquexo perished, never to return.

nt

Instead I rolled into Orca. Does anyone keep that form? Cause I had it once and it was flat horrible, worst water form imaginable. Maybe need to look at it and give it a rework like eel got, because nobody wants it ever, its always an instant delete or reroll to anyone I have ever seen get it including myself. Had it on a nexun once and ewwww.

Fwiw, actually sinking some time into using the form to give a more reasonable and constructive feedback a better way to champion something getting changed than just saying "Form X sucks, no one ever wants it."

Now, I am not saying that orca is good or bad, I have never played one. But the core idea stays the same: more time invested in it makes the claims easier to validate.

..are you saying it got changed since then and he should have stuck it out?

Actually taking time to read posts in order to give more constructive feedback is a better way to get people to respond than just saying 'This guy is complaining again, better quiet him with my knowledge.'

I'm not saying you did or didn't read his post at all but the idea stays the same: More time invested in listening to the actual complaints makes your response more validated.


Buahahahahaha.

Could still use that real feedback if he has it.

Mostly the lack of dodging/damage reduction and not as strong damage output. Not enough utility in the water, doesn't do much at all.

it's a meat shield in the worst sense

I didn't mean to cause a big problem. But yes, I have had the form and I have had it for a significant amount of time as a nexus water/water shapeshifter before. Was lobster/Orca if I remember correctly.

It states it has average dodge ability, and what, 22 dex if I remember right? It's dodging ability is far far below average. The thing is a brick at best, it gets hit by everything anything throws at it. Really no dodging at all.

The boneshatter skill it gets is nice but I would consider that a severe lack of utility. Maybe a little strong lagging skill would help it out a bit. It hits hard, sure. But basically any other water form hits just as hard minus maybe 1 or two attacks a round except for the squid, which attacks more for less.

Having played MANY water/water shifters, I would bet anything I have played more water/water than any other player in CF. I have probably played between 15 and 20 to hero. I have had every single water major form there is, I can breakdown how I feel about them constructively if you like.

Shark-Pretty cool form, most people love it. It only has 16 dex compared to the orcas 22 but it dodges just as well, which I don't think should be the case. Hits way harder in its two attacks than the orca does in its 4, with a disembowel ability and a way to bleed and frenzy off of it. Actually one of the forms I wanted.

Walrus/Lobster-For all intents and purposes, basically the same forms. Small utility and resit differences. Lag ability and dam redux, dodges at least as well as the orca still but the dam redux makes it bearable. Can go on land. I wanted walrus as my other form fwiw I like it better of the two.

Squid-Not a fan, wouldn't keep it either imo. I didn't like it. But it does have some decent uses utility wise. Inkjet, lash, strip, and no bone structure make it a fairly decent pk form. Lots more attacks than orca, though they hit less, but strip can help with that. Lash is great lag when mastered. 17 dex, average dodge, still dodges as well as orca just like the shark. For pk, especially on warriors and ragers, this is a bearable form.

Eel-Was the worst form next to orca, now arguably the best form. It all but permalags opponents, I know because I fought one recently in the last month or so that smashed me and I could barely get away from ever if I was lucky. The lag ability is insane as is the damage output. All that and it dodges fantastic making it a great form.

Dolphin-Just like the eel, great dodging and pounce, lacks the lag. Great form, there was a scion shapeshifter Rhino/Dolphin advisor a while ago that really showed how nice it can be. Managable without wands like the eel, very deadly for surprise attacks.

Manta ray-Mongoose on water with camo and sneak basically. Hits for DEMOLISHES a few times a round, 3 or 4 if i remember right. Whats not to like? Lacks lag or maledict but makes up for it by being uber swimming mongoose.

Orca-Eww. Terrible dodging, less damage output in my experience than eel, or shark, or manta ray, but probably comparable with dolphin. MAYBE about the same as a walrus or lobster under water, more than either form out of the water though Boneshatter, which is cool but very situational. Charge, which most self respecting shifter wont use because it just lags you and lets your opponent flee off most of the time. Water forms are about surprise, very few people even come in your domain to fight. Got to keep them there. Butt is cool but it isn't even close to on par with the eel at keeping people in combat. Damage is physical, which is reasonable but probably should hit a lot harder imo to account for that.


Orca has old eel/lemur/old anaconda/old gorilla syndrome. I am willing to show the stats show FAR more people rerolling it or deleting than keeping it. And I bet the ones that keep it for a while don't last very many hours after before deleting and deciding they want a better form. I've had it once for a good long test, probably 50 hours, and every time after I've rerolled or deleted. It's just not on par man, I personally think it could use a reworking.

It's my humble opinion and may not be shared by everyone, but I have heard quite a few people over the years feel the same way, in and out of game about it.

Hopefully that is constructive. Not trying to cause a problem just trying to keep things on par.

Firstly, yes your feedback was constructive. I'll add a few things:

1) Orca's damage output is the second highest of all water forms in terms of dice and number of attacks averaged out.

2) I don't know about people deleting over forms or any of that, but I can see that of water forms, orca is tied with dolphin as the two forms most swapped, twice as often as the other water forms.

3) I don't think orca is objectively as bas as you do, but if it's always being considered relative to your favorite or "the best" form(s), then I certainly understand why it underwhelms. Part of that might be that the form could use a little something, and part of it is just the proposition of the shapeshifter class.

I get there will always be a top form. And always a bottom form. That's just gaming, even in games like world of warcraft one spec is on top and one is on bottom.

Water shifters though are unique in that their ability to engage and get pk fights are severely limited. They are easily avoided, and not every water form gets a form that can go on land (providing you want to play a water lurker)

I think considering this, water shifters should maybe be considered for a little extra uumph in regards to other shifters. They should absolutely feel like the king of the their domains and excel at fighting in their element. I think that this consideration is in play a little bit with forms like caiman. My third tier caiman was better than anyone elses second tier anything in terms of damage output and tanking. That was nice for ranking, but that also took into consideration that that may be the only form I ever got as far as being able to be on land (90% of cf).

You guys did it with eel, and now eel is great. It didn't make shark or walrus or any of them any less desired, it just made the tier all that much better. All of the other forms are fine, people like them and they're workable. Dolphin i agree is a little underwhelming and orca imo is just unreasonably bad for a major form. Maybe if just those two got some sort of looking at or reworking, I would think that all water forms would be pretty damn acceptable in the grand scheme of things. Just something to consider, since water forms are my favorite focus and I plan to play many more water/water shifters in the future for fun, would be cool to not have to "worry" i might land on dolphin or orca.

It is not however a PvE form.

Immune blindness and has the highest int of all the water forms certainly counts for something. If it was swank more people would keep it It's probably the lowest damage of any but squid, but has a great utility base to it.