Fri Jun 10 01:42:40 2011

At 10 o'clock PM, Day of Thunder, 10th of the Month of the Sun
on the Theran calendar Keller perished, never to return.

So I was asked to play this character despite not wanting to play CF at all after a year. Hence the punny name and semi-lame role. The requestor in question is chronically ill so it was hard to actually turn them down.

And apparently I was told I do amazing things with thieves which isn't exactly true about anything, ever, given my luck with the RNG in CF.

This will be my first and last binder thief. Binders cannot adjust to the realities of a changing battlefield. They are great for dealing with other uncaballed players, but until an edge exists that gives a chance to immediately attempt a gag during blackjack lag, they are ultimately useless in cabal wars involving any appreciable amount of people, especially outnumbering the binder. 'cb jacked eastern' counters everything until shadow drag works on unbound targets and isn't countered by 'vis' or attempting pretty much any command at all while KO'd. I was not generally in the habit of pointlessly cleaning inventories out unless it was daggers and occasionally swords/maces. In that regard, I stole less than Flaaayin ever thought about taking. I also played far less conservatively than I believe all thieves should play.

No, I didn't actually believe all the #### I was spewing about courage to my opponents about Berserkers waking one another up from KO and crap (or non-berserkers waking up berserkers or vice versa), but I also went into this knowing that the current crop of Villagers despite Thror's recent asskickings weren't exactly triple-A material, and they didn't exactly fail to live up to my expectations in that regard, even with him in the cabal among their ranks.

I actually was having fun with my role and such but after a while the fact that I was relying on five+ RNG checks in a row on my skills/bindings to get remotely anywhere close to being useful *in addition to the fact that my foes were so utterly and completely terrified of being bound up* was really beginning to wear on my already thin nerves with this game and it showed. I deleted not because I didn't get Nexus leader positions, but because I was sticking around just long enough to ensure I didn't get stuck with it. Binder would not have been my first choice for this cabal at all, it *should* have been full thug + magic path up to lore of ages with knife and cheap shot, and it showed. Keller's build as it was, cost 99 thief points and taking blackjack was a necessity due to the dynamics of people in-combat.

I already knew all the reasons binder wasn't going to work but I was essentially constantly bludgeoned with them regardless. Bindings breaking quicker in a 2v1 is entirely understandable. However, truss coming off in one round just because I used backstab is *not funny*, and I finally had to stop using backstab altogether in order to *not kill my opponent so fast that the bindings wouldn't come off* which was entirely counterintuitive. My gank-o-meter will show zero solo kills, and that is because at some point binder was so unreliable and so un-fun that I gave up and just tied people up for other folks to kill. The bindings also broke less often for Chulun or Grelgich than me, which was really wonky.

Master kidnapper as an edge had no discernable effect on the lag time on drag or success rate. I wanted to drag ragers into the Aldevari princess room but the lag time on it was so horrible truss would break before I could get the target there. I got Zun one room away and then he just walked off. Blackjack failed when I tried to KO him again and I gave up from there. Also, I was a full binder but blackjack was still (slightly) more reliable than the abysmal success rate on garrotte. Perfecting bindings normally takes roughly two weeks, but I managed to get it done in about 36 hours straight of spam including a random learning bonus weekend. If it matters for number crunchers, I did not perfect them but they were all 95+. Add in the necessity of prepping even against completely bound up foes and you have a recipe I have very little patience for. Additionally the individual bindings tend to break so fast that dipping into this path partially is a net loss, you either get EVERYTHING or you're better off using poisons or thug path in 99.9% of cases.

Ultimately this was as unsatisfying and frustrating an experience as one could get, especially since this character was involved in me losing my job recently. (no, not playing during work, more complex than that)

Goodbyes:

Olum took a legacy just to counter me that both he and I now know a way to get around once you know the target has it, that works specifically for thieves only. (hint for Olum: Every time I tried to KO you but the very last two, you weren't doing something. Try to avoid it when you know someone is around, but for necromancers it will always work swimmingly no matter what. There is only one skill in the game that takes advantage of that situation and it may be a bug). I don't blame you for doing that at all and it made you a royal headache to deal with until I attempted to KO you out of desperation and it worked twice. Ordinarily I would feel rotten doing what I did to you, but if you read all of the above what an absolute headache it was to attempt any sort of PK at all, I'm sure you'll understand when I gave up and just tied you up for Chulun to tenderize.

Syther, you were pretty classy though it took you a bit to catch on to the fact that I was flat frustrated and change your tone to praise me a little. It helped in a small way, which is why I tried to banter with you. While we had a fundamental disagreement as to what exactly constitutes a fight (your definition is narrower than mine) it wasn't as unpleasant to deal with you as the vast majority of your compatriots. It was interesting for you to say I was too fast to catch. Vonzamir did the same thing, but all I can say is 17 MS to the box makes thieves play how they were meant to be played in regards to catching up to people on roads and getting commands in first.

Imrahiest, I think you realized just how dumb your situation and Gryilious' was after you died in the arena, hence the duergar swearing to me afterward. I probably don't need to tell you not to stick your neck out like that, as a player that does it 300% more often than you do despite not playing balls-to-the-wall. It was amusing, but trust me, full binder does not work out that beautifully but one in one hundred of occasions. I already littered the log boards with evidence to the contrary.

Allysia, Jule, Chulun, Gibsogrel, Grelgich, Gurzgred, Rhone, Sivyh, Tavlin, Lohoq, most of you are solid fighters and more entertaining roleplayers than I realized until after I deleted, and it was nice to interact with you all. While being asked to scout out of necessity was a bit of a headache, I could see you all appreciated having me around/enjoyed interacting despite my inabilities 1v1. If I was having better luck overall I'd likely have decided to see how things would play out further.

Outlanders, you need to ask the Imms to change the helpfile for Outlander to include thieves and assassins, or neither. Your recent policy reeks of being PK hungry and ultimately bored. I can fully see and understand the justification, but if it's going to be the new policy from here on out to alienate yourself completely from any allies at all with detect hidden, it needs to be in the helpfile. 2, 3 or 4 man ganks on a lone thief I didn't find terribly funny at all either, and I'd probably have full sacced the Harbinger that one time on Eastern for that #### if Grelgich didn't #### up. The Sunwarden is lucky I never found his ass on Eastern and didn't have time to putter around Hamsah looking for him either. There are just as many legitimate powergamey and RP reasons that conflict with you tacking thieves and assassins on to the list as there are for it, and there have been thieves in Outlander in the past. I don't see Ragers going off and slaughtering bards just because their abilities clearly have no 'physical' explanation and the decision to as a cabal hunt thieves is along those lines.

Cagubrak, Trip you really need to settle down on the trash talking. I barely spoke to Cagu to begin with, and you knew right from the start that Scarab powers meant I would never ever ever be able to do anything to you, therefore complaining about the 2v1's was completely unwarranted as well. What exactly do you gain from trash-talking someone who is obviously having a terrible time and is obligated by RP to deal with a foe who is completely 100% immune to them and you have no clue what they are wearing? I don't have deft touch and steal never got above 80. You also managed to not level at all, delete at 40, and #### up and get promoted to the wrong position in your religion, so it's not as if both you and me didn't have things go wrong. You really have no room or reason to dislike the character as much as you did beyond the intentional pun, and ultimately the end result was you making an ass of yourself after deleting as usual. Eventually it was easier just to rank out of your range than deal with you, and since both you and Acrailb used the ignore command on me for entirely no reason when trying to RP with you via tell, there was no reason to interact further.

Ultimately, my only advice to you is you should follow my lead and quit the game and relegate yourself to the forums only. There are fundamental traits of CF that neither you or I will ever be satisfied with including the playerbase, and you are acting exactly as I did the last two years before I quit. Quitting will do you more good than acting essentially schizo when you're trolled between compliments to rage.

Anyway, I need to go look for a new job before cash runs out, so I don't plan on being back. I thought about playing something in Shadow Sect under Sivyh to see what he was like, but given my personal non-existent time management skills and the timesink this game is, it's impossible. I wish you all the best.

Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

I enjoyed Keller, and you had one of the most original approaches to Nexus (among the many interviews I did yours was one of the most unique) that I heard. It's always good to have a bit more unique spin than the standard ideals of any cabal, which is something I try to do and really like to see in other chars. And yes, given the number of hiders that were in the village, a Nexus thief was in high demand. Solo PK viability is not always the hallmark of a good char, so I think you did well, though I could tell you were getting annoyed with the binder path.

Sorry I didn't help you out more once I got removed, but it just wasn't Allysia's place to get back to full involvement in those things, fun and easy as it would have been to kill villagers with you. Probably further down the road I might have started aiding you, but it was a bit too soon. I did like watching you work though.

I was curious about the note you sent out when Twist removed me, since I was curious as to how that looked from an outsiders POV when I told you what I was planning on doing.

And good luck with all the RL things, I hope they work out for you and maybe you get a little time somewhere down the road to play again when you've a bit of time.

Well, this is a big blow. No matter what you thought about how the binder path you did played, you were good to have around and we knew you would be helpful in a fight if nothing else. I am sorry about the #### up on Sala on Eastern, problem with that is, no one knew that you had him jacked. We get into the heat of the moment and have to communicate so that we can work together. That was the only thing I ever griped about with Keller.

Beyond that, you were a great person to have around and I really will miss you being there because when you were on, I knew someone was going to get ####ed up. Thanks for all the help and everything. If you return, good luck with your next.

Olum took a legacy just to counter me that both he and I now know a way to get around once you know the target has it, that works specifically for thieves only. (hint for Olum: Every time I tried to KO you but the very last two, you weren't doing something. Try to avoid it when you know someone is around, but for necromancers it will always work swimmingly no matter what. There is only one skill in the game that takes advantage of that situation and it may be a bug). I don't blame you for doing that at all and it made you a royal headache to deal with until I attempted to KO you out of desperation and it worked twice. Ordinarily I would feel rotten doing what I did to you, but if you read all of the above what an absolute headache it was to attempt any sort of PK at all, I'm sure you'll understand when I gave up and just tied you up for Chulun to tenderize.

I knew you thought this. I knew you changed your behavior accordingly. I knew it wasn't true, but since it was a net boon (svirf = vuln blackjack) I did nothing to disabuse you of the notion. It was a source of great enjoyment for me, especially considering the fairly nasty deaths I took from you + whoever you called in to gank me after I had no weapons and was bound to hell.

I'm glad you are gone, and I didn't like the garbage you spewed about "fair" fights and whatnot, but I didn't hate the player, as I got the frustration leaking out, but you were number 2 (of two) on my list of people "Not worth fighting unless I can make sure they can't do X." (blackjack in your case)

Olum

We did pretty well together in the midbie ranks, then I took my time getting up to hero. I could see your frustration growing and your desperation in going after Villagers constantly. A binder thief unfortunately turns into a support character, unless your name is Ghurn and you wail on me repeatedly. You should make an Imperial, I think you will find it a lot more satisfying because you know everyone is out to kill you. Take some time off and come back, we will be waiting.... with cookies and coins!

What has changed about the binder class since I played Iltch/Iktul? I disagree with most everything you said about class abilities and cabal war functions. I'm literally not even trying to troll here, I just don't understand why our experiences would be so different with the same class/build.

Were you using yellow roots to drag? Drag is laggy as hell if you're the same size or smaller, if you're bigger you can go a few rooms per tick.

Were you using rope bonus to get that final 5% in your skills? You can't really complain about bindings not working if they're not 100%. The times I saw you binding/trussing people it seemed to work half the time, which was about what I got with my guys.

I never use backstab with thieves if knife is an option, especially with binders. Flee knife and truss is a crazy combination.

Anyway, I know you hatezors me and again I'm not trolling, I'm just confused as to what changed with binders.

Drag does not indicate size is a factor in the helpfile. This probably needs to be changed. However enlarge also is counterintuitive for the simple fact that it wrecks hide during sneaking. Dragging someone down Eastern visible is not the most pleasant experience with other villagers constantly logging in and out at all times of day, essentially useless air shifters floating around the skies, etc. I really only got to make extensive use of drag that one time on Zun, in other situations there were extenuating circumstances such as other Ragers around or lowbies trying to unbind.

I had zero access to the rope as my thief was unguilded. My only option would have been to break into Hamsah to buy one. I was not privy to the location of one outside a protected city until close to deletion and by that point everything was 98-100%. I will be buying the PBF for you to study more closely, and you have read all the logs I posted. Those logs were pretty much a daily routine for me in terms of failures.

I was afraid to use flee;knife because I would be screwed if the truss broke during knife lag. It broke that often. Plus, again, the vast majority of the time flee;knife was going to get me bashed or pincered by a berserker, seeing as how they consider bindings and blackjack to not qualify as a 1 on 1 fight. I had neither the time nor inclination to spend 2035734878947365897346987 hours gathering preps not to die to this.

All of those things should have mattered very little in the grand scheme of things.

Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

...

"It's easier to drag someone smaller than you around than someone bigger than you" is counterintuitive?

'DRAG (1551)

Syntax: drag

Thieves can drag their tied or trussed victims. This brings both thief and
victim out of hiding.'

Not all of us have experience parenting and/or kidnapping children.

Most things in CF are a complete dice roll as to whether they actually apply to a given situation or not, such as blackjack and the helmet a person is wearing or saves versus paralysis. It should come as completely no surprise that these things should probably be in the helpfile.


Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

It's been no secret. I know I've seen it mentioned on the forums on multiple occasions.

>"It's easier to drag someone smaller than you around than
>someone bigger than you" is counterintuitive?

If I actually stop to think about it, I actually don't think being bigger yourself is really any advantage when it comes to dragging. For carrying, it certainly is, but not dragging. In fact, I think that assuming two people of equal strength the shorter one would have an easier time because he wouldn't have to bend down as much. Unless he had a long lead on the rope, but that would only make them even, there's no advantage to being bigger, it's just that in reality strength and size correlate.

Now being stronger, sure that makes perfect intuitive sense. And giant strength would definitely follow, logically. But enlargment? I honestly don't see why that would help at all.

Having thought about it some, it would also seem to me that the bigger your target is the easier they are to drag, given the same weight, assuming that you have some kind of handle. Having the weight spread over a larger surface area means you can scoot it around.

This is a problem I've had throughout my career at CF. What is intuitive to you guys seems totally wrong to me. Parrying seems like something that should be based on speed and timing (dex and maybe int) but in CF it's primarily strength (with dex playing a lesser role). Blocking with a shield actually does take strength. That's just one more example. This is why I've always felt like you should be completely open about what effects what, because as a player there's no way to be sure what is or isn't affecting thiings.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now.

>Having thought about it some, it would also seem to me that
>the bigger your target is the easier they are to drag, given
>the same weight, assuming that you have some kind of handle.
>Having the weight spread over a larger surface area means you
>can scoot it around.


But that's exactly the opposite of how friction works. More surface area means more friction and so tougher to drag.

But I agree with you on the size of the dragger part; strength being equal smaller is better, especially because of wind resistance once you really get going.

*straight-faced*

.

Seriously, in real life, is it going to be easier to drag something much smaller than you (with a rope) or something that isn't much smaller than you?

Unless you start saying stuff like "well, if the small thing is much more dense..." then common sense says it is easier to drag something smaller than you than something the same size or bigger.

I still agree with you that it wouldn't help to put it in the helpfile though.

>Unless you start saying stuff like "well, if the small thing
>is much more dense..." then common sense says it is easier to
>drag something smaller than you than something the same size
>or bigger.

Except that's exactly what's happening in CF. Enlarge (last I knew) doesn't increase your weight. Therefore, for the reasons I said I think it actually is easier to drag a larger object of the same weight. And worst-case dragging the object is just as easy if it's the same weight.

But this is exactly the point. That you can't reason out things and expect them to work realistically because the game isn't (and shouldn't be) a realistic physics simlation. You have to sort of half-think through things in just the right way. And if you half-think through them the way the staff does, you win and if you don't happen to half-think through things their way then tough cookies.

It seems to me that your opinion relies on two assumptions:
1. Enlarge does not increase your weight.
2. Dragging does not involve carrying, at all.

Re: 1, I don't see why you think enlarge reduces your density and does not increase your weight at all. It's not as though enlarged characters float on water, or reduced characters sink. And in fact, enlarge actually grants you extra strength and constitution, which to me strongly suggests enlarge increases your character's weight. I mean, you seem to want positive proof that enlarge increases your weight (which to me just makes sense given the size, strength, and constitution increase, as well as, for example, how bash works), but for some reason are perfectly willing to accept that enlarge reduces your density - which has no CF mechanics basis, at all. Personally, I just think it makes more sense to assume enlarge increases your weight.

Re: 2, again, I think this is a pretty hard assumption to make.

My point would be, rather than making these hard and cold assumptions, maybe you could open your mind to other interpretations, and experiment based on those interpretations. The difference between dragging while bigger than your foe vs. smaller than your foe is quite noticeable. And I think we ALL agree that there is a possibility that it would be easier to drag/lift/move a smaller object than a larger one. So why not experiment based on that possibility rather than just rule it out based on a baseless assumption?

Basically, it's not a matter of "winning" or "losing" by thinking things through, it's a matter of experimentation and problem solving. Rewriting every helpfile to list every possible factor in every ability sounds like a monumental task to me -- I just wonder if that kind of time and energy could be better spent elsewhere, particularly when (at least from my POV), the majority of people playing binders realized being larger than your victim increased your chances to drag it away.

but if it was never mentioned in this thread(and Ive never played a thief, let alone a binder) I sincerely doubt I would have considered enlarging to make it easier to drag. I think thats more of the issue than it making sense (and it does).

Yeah, I was speaking more to whether it is "counterintuitive" that being larger than your victim makes dragging your victim easier. IMHO there is a significant difference between an obscure solution vs. a "counterintuitive" solution. And I think that difference goes way beyond nitpicking over semantics because a counterintuitive solution is an unreasonable solution. Anyway...

I don't know where I fall on the debate regarding whether it's fun to have "cognitive tricks" in CF. For me, I like them, but I understand there are others that want everything spelled out for them and don't want to have to play around and experiment. I also understand it would be ridiculously time consuming to spell *everything* out to the degree it would take to randomly update the drag helpfile and include a reference to every possible factor. I kind of like things how they are now - people experiment, post logs/talk (which is how I knew about enlarge), and if people get really stuck or frustrated, they come on to Gameplay and ask Nep/Zulg for an official answer. Then the helpfile eventually gets updated as needed (and as time allows) now that attention is focused on it.

But really, I was taking on the argument that this particular solution is "counterintuitive."

Is that it can make for a very uneven playing field.

Let's say, for example, that I'm a gnome with autumn harvest. So I reduce before fights that I see coming.

There's a thief hitting the massive giant, so I go to defend. Next thing I know, I'm ko'd, dragged to the aryth, and my boat's been stolen. (I don't know whether you can drag onto water, but you get my point.)

For some reason, this happens EVERY time I try to fight this guy. Not a lot of fun.

And yet, if it was in the helpfile, I could think to myself "Should I reduce and risk being dragged to the aryth, or should I not, and tank less well?".

If I could make a suggestion, it would be to let one of the newer imms do something like keep helpfiles up to date and as informative as possible (without giving actual numbers for Isildur to crunch and use to produce the optimal whatever-it-is) rather than code an area.

I don't think I've ever asked for actual numbers.

If they were there, you'd crunch them. ;*)

The process Malakhi describes he currently 'kind of likes' is how misinformation gets spread.

And then the imms bitch about having to correct said misinformation (more frequently, it always will get spread to some extent). Thus, nepenthe asking me what is or isn't intuitive is pretty ####ing asinine. Stop leaving #### out of helpfiles just because it seems 'patently obvious' because it's more work to do that and then listen to all the reasons people disagree than it is to add two lines.

And Malakhi no one is saying someone should go through and re-evaluate each and every helpfile and potentially edit or rewrite every single one. Just do them as you find them. Let people use the typo command and put in the helpfile number or something.

For god sakes it's two lines in the drag helpfile if even. 'Being larger than your opponent makes it easier to drag, and vice versa.' You don't even have to add details about the same size, which as the scenario I had with Zun.

Finally, as much as I agree with Valkenar and his point about communication on mechanics (these types of offenses regarding communication and puzzles in CF are far more egregious in explore areas than mechanics, partly due to having to anticipate what the explorer is thinking and partly due to the varying ages and standards of the areas in question), it's not worth discussing drag any further than we already have. Drag was *not* the majority of my frustration. My opponents being rescued or the skills failing completely quite often or breaking before they could ever serve any use in combat aside from using sleepingdisarm, particularly in cases where I used backstab, was.

To summarize, how Artificial was thinking about drag is how I was thinking about drag.

Besides, everyone misinterpreted my 'counterintuitive' statement. I said enlarging to drag would be counterintuitive to the process of acting/thinking like a thief overall because I would be caught out of hiding more frequently in the event I was attacked and needed to flee;hide;sneak and move. I would pop out of hiding and particularly in the case of Ragers AND Airforms who are both quick on dash and flyto respectively, this is a problem.

Seems like you're talking about the wrong thing, although you're right that I made those assumptions. Remember, we're talking mostly about the person doing the dragging, not the person being dragged, which is two very different things. I did talk about the person being dragged and their size, but that was meant to be sort of a sidenote.

Anyhow, even if enlarge does increase your weight, that still doesn't mean it makes sense to enlarge as the person doing the dragging. In fact, it should make it worse unless you're below max strength (meaning that the enlarge spell doesn't actually increase your strength any). Because then you're using the same amount of muscle to now move your increased weight. I could go on (and address carrying, for example) but you had a different point you seemed to think was more important.

>My point would be, rather than making these hard and cold
>assumptions, maybe you could open your mind to other
>interpretations, and experiment based on those
>interpretations.

Sure, but I could open my mind to dozens of random interpretations that don't make any sense to me. Maybe being blessed helps? Makes no sense to me, but if I'm opening my mind and not going based on the assumptions that makes sense to me, then where do I stop? Maybe having bless and flight but not protection vs align. Makes no sense at all, but at least it's not actually counter to the reasoning I'm disregarding. So do I have to try every combination of spell effects in the game? The problem with your suggestion is that if once you resort to trial and error without using reason (and that's the case here because my reasoning concludes the exact opposite of what CF implements) you have a huge number of things to try.

And really I was making a point beyond this specific case. Most effects in this game have a large random component which means it's excruciatingly difficult to accurately determine whether what you're trying is having a negative, positive or null effect. Plus, you can't really test in controlled conditions at least not while RPing. And that's why I think the source should basically be open for viewing. But since that won't happen I always think more transparency is better when it comes to obscure details of how skills work, especially when it would be completely obvious to the person doing it in the game.

>Plus, you can't really test in controlled
>conditions at least not while RPing.

Sure you can. When I played Maethron ICly he was acquainted with a neutral bind thief that had helped him out in the past before. One day we decided we would help each other out. I set traps and he ran into them then he would tell me their affects. I let him tie me up to see what I could and could not die and how long it could last for. And the whole time we remained IC. So it is entirely possible. You just have to find someone willing who trusts you and whom you can trust.

Is this really big guy likely to have an easier time dragging this really small thing than a really small guy is dragging a really big thing?

That's not what I'd call obscure. How you can liken that to the bless supp helping...?!

Bear charge is helped by size. Bash is helped by size. Both of which suggest that being bigger helps do things that you'd expect bigger people to do better!

>But that's exactly the opposite of how friction works. More
>surface area means more friction and so tougher to
>drag.

Not according to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction#Dry_friction

Amontons' Second Law: The force of friction is independent of the apparent area of contact.

You're probably thinking of drag, which is friction of another kind that does depend much more on surface area.

Remember, the weight of the person is the same and that's what's pressing them down and creating the friction. When they get bigger it just spreads that friction out, but it remain constant because it's directly proportional to weight.

But I didn't actually know that until you forced me to look it up. I was just basing it on the fact that if something is big and heavy you can shimmy it back and forth, but if all of the weight is concentrated into one spot it's not possible to do that.

Your refrigerator is big and heavy, but you can move it around if you need to by pushing one side and then the other alternatively. If it were crushed down into a one-inch cube you'd never be able to move it anywhere (unless you are very strong and then yeah you could just pick it up). The friction would be the same, but you wouldn't have the advantage of leverage.

That's the biggest thing is that changing the size affects the leverages involved to the advantage of the smaller person.

n/t

But an enlarged svirf would use it better than a normal sized svirf, and an enlarged felar would use it better than a normal size felar.

I would guess than an enlarged svirf would drag better than a normal sized felar, but beyond that...

I'm 98% sure I haven't changed anything with binders in that time, FWIW.

Interaction of thief waylay and garrotte was changed. That's the only reason my binder had any success.

My first interaction with you did not go my way. Frankly, I just wasn't prepared for a pair of Nexuns to jack me out of the blue, without warning (I thought I missed Ghurn logging in and that he was the one that did it all the way until the wolverine started clawing me ). The bindings did not wear off for several rounds, and I could not cast or quaff or use my free hand. Based on that experience, I do think binders can be quite powerful, especially when working with a ganging buddy. I think they would draw close to being OP if bindings worked to that level of efficiency more often. Just MHO.

If I had engaged you instead of Grelgich, you probably would have survived. Bindings for me consistently snapped off when the target hit gushing with blood and at that point cheap shot is all I have to seal the kill which never actually worked out for me. Gag and blindfold typically have a greater than 50% chance to break off in the first round immediately starting combat. For whatever reason, letting Chulun and Grelgich work over bound up targets meant the truss didn't break until you had so little health you weren't going to survive if they broke at all.

Also tagging an invoker while you aren't bound is a zero-sum game for both of us. At the time I think Light was tipping pretty hard or close to it.

Try not to throw pillar around so often. There are times where it's worth risking spellbane, such as when you are already winning. Gurzgred and I most likely had that handled and you could have kept Baluth's attention.

Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

>If I had engaged you instead of Grelgich, you probably would
>have survived. Bindings for me consistently snapped off when
>the target hit gushing with blood and at that point cheap shot
>is all I have to seal the kill which never actually worked out
>for me. Gag and blindfold typically have a greater than 50%
>chance to break off in the first round immediately starting
>combat. For whatever reason, letting Chulun and Grelgich work
>over bound up targets meant the truss didn't break until you
>had so little health you weren't going to survive if they
>broke at all.
>


Sounds buggy, but I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know whether the fix (if any) would be the reduce the effectiveness for 3rd party gankers or increase the effectiveness for 1st party binders, either. My point was really, if it were that effective a majority of the time (which is what I think you want), I think binders would be pretty close to OP - you would almost HAVE to call for help the moment you are jacked or be deaded.


>Also tagging an invoker while you aren't bound is a zero-sum
>game for both of us. At the time I think Light was tipping
>pretty hard or close to it.
>


Yes, assuming the invoker is flying, that's a losing fight for anyone but a scout thief with cutoff in a norecall area IMHO.

>Sounds buggy, but I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know whether
>the fix (if any) would be the reduce the effectiveness for 3rd
>party gankers or increase the effectiveness for 1st party
>binders, either. My point was really, if it were that
>effective a majority of the time (which is what I think you
>want), I think binders would be pretty close to OP - you would
>almost HAVE to call for help the moment you are jacked or be
>deaded.

Which is what was happening anyway.

I was typically treated as far more lethal than I actually was, and I suppose that's because dying to truss is extremely demoralizing. However, if people would equip more +dex, the bindings will break faster. (in my experience on the other end if you stacked enough +dex the bindings break relatively quickly so as to be useless, even truss)


Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

I guessed you missed the potential of waylay + gag?

You are forgetting that as soon as I hit hero approximately half the village at all levels was thieves, duergar and assassins.

That would have been useless and there would have been no way to fit it into the build. Plus, you can't gag people who are standing, they have to be KO'd or it starts a fight or at least breaks the waylay.

Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

Good point on detect hidden.

However, it is possible to waylay, ko, and gag or something before they have a chance to call for help. It's been done by a couple of binders before. I think Isildur's fort binder used this one, but it might have been someone else around at the same time.

>So I was asked to play this character despite not wanting to play CF at all after a year. Hence the punny name and semi-lame role. The requestor in question is chronically ill so it was hard to actually turn them down.

If this is the case don't do a goodbye. If you weren't trying to impress us why post a goodbye telling all the players what they did wrong with their characters. The character was made to help a friend. If it's done now then go chit chat with the friend about your experiences. Don't vomit your bitchrants onto the forums.

>Outlanders, you need to ask the Imms to change the helpfile for Outlander to include thieves and assassins, or neither. Your recent policy reeks of being PK hungry and ultimately bored. I can fully see and understand the justification, but if it's going to be the new policy from here on out to alienate yourself completely from any allies at all with detect hidden, it needs to be in the helpfile. 2, 3 or 4 man ganks on a lone thief I didn't find terribly funny at all either, and I'd probably have full sacced the Harbinger that one time on Eastern for that #### if Grelgich didn't #### up. The Sunwarden is lucky I never found his ass on Eastern and didn't have time to putter around Hamsah looking for him either. There are just as many legitimate powergamey and RP reasons that conflict with you tacking thieves and assassins on to the list as there are for it, and there have been thieves in Outlander in the past. I don't see Ragers going off and slaughtering bards just because their abilities clearly have no 'physical' explanation and the decision to as a cabal hunt thieves is along those lines.

Mostly for thieves and assassins; unless you fight for their cause, you are definitely an enemy to them. There have been applicants of both classes and I know for a fact there have been assassin outlanders before. Don't get your panties in a bunch just because you died to some outlander ambush. You've played this game, a lot, for a long time. I don't care if you didn't continue to play solid all these years, you still follow the game. Especially enough to bitch bitch bitch on the forums.

You whine too much too often. Get that sand out of your vagina.

On a brighter note I am glad I MEAN SAD to see you go. A lost crybaby is still a lost player. Roll a thug imperial and get your revenge.

Cagubrak, Trip you really need to settle down on the trash talking. I barely spoke to Cagu to begin with, and you knew right from the start that Scarab powers meant I would never ever ever be able to do anything to you, therefore complaining about the 2v1's was completely unwarranted as well. What exactly do you gain from trash-talking someone who is obviously having a terrible time and is obligated by RP to deal with a foe who is completely 100% immune to them and you have no clue what they are wearing? I don't have deft touch and steal never got above 80. You also managed to not level at all, delete at 40, and #### up and get promoted to the wrong position in your religion, so it's not as if both you and me didn't have things go wrong. You really have no room or reason to dislike the character as much as you did beyond the intentional pun, and ultimately the end result was you making an ass of yourself after deleting as usual. Eventually it was easier just to rank out of your range than deal with you, and since both you and Acrailb used the ignore command on me for entirely no reason when trying to RP with you via tell, there was no reason to interact further.
-------

First off, what about Scarab powers meant you could never do anything to me? I *only* had vestments. It's purely cosmetic, you can steal whatever you want from me, and it's that simple. That was a silly statement on your part. Other then that, I was purely just an uncaballed fire giant sword spec that you just couldn't beat.

Second, it's hard to level when literally almost every person is my enemy. Cagubrak was also like three weeks old when I deleted, so #### all the level sitting comments.

I had every reason to hate your character, and it was all RP. I hated Nexuns because they weren't their own men and were slaves to balance and not their own desires, that's the whole point of the religion. I have no clue how I made an ass out of myself for deleting because my internet kept disconnecting, nor that I got the "wrong" position, I thought Voice was awesome and Scarab said he thought it would be cool and fit me better, how is that a #### up?

I just stopped RP'ing with you because you obviously were frustrated OOC and it was bleeding through so bad it was just time to let you do your thing. I think it's pretty apparent you always were, and if that's your excuse of RP than whatever man.

Either way, that was a ####ty set of arguments on your part and there's no freaking way I'm going to be offended at this when 95% of the people that said goodbye said I was an awesome character and they enjoyed all my interactions. You just couldn't beat me and it pissed you off, it's as simple as that.

You showed alot of promises during your growing days, training hard at mastering binding skills and I can tell you'll be a reckoning force. I sure hope you would stick it out till the end and learn more about the pros and cons of your expertise, it is a shame to see you left so quickly after a good start. You are an asset to the island in many ways and that is your strength, too bad you didn't really care about what can be-that is victory for the island, but worry more about what could be... If you showed a bit of more of dedication and teamwork to the island, I am sure I would do everything I can to make you Rhyme.. indeed I would and with you being the Rhyme, the island shall be quite a force to be reckon with as a whole.. but it wasn't meant to be.. glwyn