Tue Feb 10 20:28:33 2009

At 11 o'clock AM, Day of Freedom, 32nd of the Month of the Old Forces
on the Theran calendar Hayim perished, never to return.

Race:	elf
Class:	warrior
Level:	51
Alignment:	Good
Ethos:	Chaotic
Cabal:	FORTRESS, the Fortress of Light
Age:	502
Hours:	223

The gods don't adhere to any sort of common law. They're all crazy sociopaths with differing definitions of ethos and alignment.

Maybe you could try to think of it like that and not get so bent out of shape that people don't agree with your opinion.

Maybe you should imm your next character, and try to stir up the pot a little with the worldview you've worked out above. Sounds plausible enough to me.

Iunna was without doubt the best experience I've had with a religion in my time at cf. It was far and away more time and interaction than any character of mine has ever had with a patron imm, and it went above and beyond any previous conception of what a mortal and an imm can do ic. Other than a few little nits along the way and at the end, it was as close to perfect a relationship I could imagine for any character and an imm. I recommend heartily to any and all of you: roll up an Iunna character and put in the effort to get her attention and affection and you will have a cf experience you'll treasure. I know I am waxing rhapsodic but she really deserves the accolodes, and I still miss the fun we had. I had fully intended to age die this character simply so I could continue to have the foshizzle coolness of our interactions. Obviously other things got in the way of that, but it doesn't diminish the good times we had. So thank you, Iunna.

I rolled up this character entirely because of eq. A year or two ago I fought two characters that used spears, and they each used one in particular, the spear named righteousness. I hadn't played a spear warrior in many years, and the last was a rager who needless to say couldn't use that spear because of its magical hotness. So I wanted to play a non-rager spear user, just so I could test that weapon out. And having not played in almost a year, a warrior seemed a pretty easy way to come back and check things out. With that, Hayim was born. The irony here is that the spear was never in. After all that, after checking the mob that has it after every reboot, every death, every chance I had... he never had it. Was pretty funny, at least to me. Then, only the day before I deleted, when I already had the inkling things were ending, he had it. So, I had one day with it. I thought it was fitting that I got it for one day to use in a couple fights, just to see it. It's a fun toy.

In the end there were two real reasons why I deleted. One is common, I just really don't enjoy the constant need for a warrior at hero levels to try and gather dam redux. For all people talk about low player levels, I think the biggest impact of that is at non-hero levels. By the time you hit hero, most of the characters are the long time vets or experienced players, and so you need to bring your "A" game for almost every fight, otherwise you just get steamrolled. And to do that, a hero warrior needs significant dam redux. At best I had protection (which was useless against neutrals obviously), stone skin and shield. And as I'm sure most of you know, it's ridiculously tedious not only to get these things, but often it isn't even available. Even Iunna commented with a wry grin that I'd perhaps killed more of a certain mob than could be counted (the place I got shield potions). That, and the really annoying fact that roots crumble on death, and all the other things you need as a warrior, just got to be too much drudgery. It's one of the big reasons many people play battle, including myself, when I do.

The other reason is the one that caused, and no doubt will cause more controversy. Plain and simple: the staff, and particularly Baerinika in this instance, have never really been consistent when it comes to alignment and behavior and ooc decisions. I will explain.

After many years (about a month, real time, and about 200 hours gameplay on the char) of watching nexus attack fortress people, kill the maran, take the orb, kill other goodies, and essentially just be evil, he did what any normal rational person would do, call a spade a spade. And he did so publically so there wouldn't be any doubts or claims of lies or deceit or whatever. And what he said was that evil is doing evil. It's not what you say or believe so much but what you actually do. And if you do evil things over and over, intending to do them and intending to continue to do them, then no matter what you think, you're evil. And I wrote it in a way that almost quoted several of the staff - I recall Nep's in particular, but others as well - who said the exact same thing. I believe one example Nep or someone else used was that "Hitler thought he was doing a good thing, but, yeah, not so much" or something like that. The point being, even if you think you're doing what you're doing for a good reason, if what you're doing is evil, you're evil. Even if you think you're good. And after years of watching the nexuns, that's exactly the situation.

The worst part about it - and where I'm surely going to get some sort of sarcastic insulting reply (though I hope not) is that the number one goodie imm, the imm (now that shokai's gone) that is really the face of the good alignment, is flat our wrong in her definition of what evil is. In my discussion with Baerinika at the end (and by the way, you calling me stubborn is pretty funny, but not terribly unexpected. You might consider looking at yourself on that score), after a long discussion with lots of pauses (I will post the entirety of it later), she finally gave me her definition of evil. She said: "Taking joy in the pain you cause other people."

That's flat wrong. I'll demonstrate with a simple example. A maran kills people who are evil. The maran doesn't enjoy it. And the maran is good, by her definiton, because the maran doesn't enjoy it. Well, let's say the maran kills people who are good. And the maran doesn't enjoy it. Does that mean the maran is still good? Hardly. Likewise someone who believes that the only way to save thera is to kill every elf, storm giant, and all women and children, everywhere. This person is sad by that, but or whatever reason honestly believes it's the only way to save thera from imminent destruction. Does anyone really think that a character that went about killing elves, storms, and all women and children mobs would be anything but "evil" in short order? Of course not.

Because, as the staff has said repeatedly, if you do evil things repeatedly, then over time it doesn't matter what you think of yourself. You're evil.

So really then, the area for discussion is how much time that may take, and that's fine, I would have been happy to have that discussion - and in fact I did, with Padwei, when I told her I would be delighted for her to try talking to them to change their ways. But it had already been hundreds of years for Hayim, plenty of time to watch people and see how they behave. And by the way, she called my definiton "weaselly" and then got her hackles up when I told her I felt a bit insulted by that. As if calling someone a weasel could be construed as anything but an insult. But I digress.

At one point in that conversation, she said something that really highlighted the true crux of the problem here. Without any preamble and very much a non-sequitur, she busted out with "You don't get to decide that Nexus is evil. ... That's for me to decide. For Iunna, for anyone in Asgaard."

And that's really the problem here. I'm not perfect, you're not perfect, nobody's perfect, but logic is logic and you (and since you are both nexus and fort, it's no secret, I do mean you Baerinika) have, on the one hand, made an ooc decision that you don't want real conflict between the fortress and the nexus cabals, but on the other you haven't figured out a way to actually make that logical ic. Because like I mentioned above, as every staff member who has addressed the question of evil has said, if you do evil and evil and evil, then once that's seen and become clear, well, you're evil even if you don't think you are.

Some people came up with the specious argument that sometimes they kill evil people, sometimes fight empire or scion, or whomever. But that's morally irrelevant. As I said to several people ingame, giving money to the mother doesn't excuse raping the daughter. Morality isn't a tit-for-tat, you can't do one evil act and one good act to make up for it. If you go kill 10,000 elves and children and all that, doing other things that might help people doesn't erase your acts. Anymore than the emperor's belief that bringing order to everyone will make thera a better place. Still evil.

It's that conflict, between the ooc decision not to let fortress people respond to nexus attacks beyond the immediate, even if they actually take the orb, actually come in and target the fortress, repeatedly target goodies, etc., and the obvious position of a character who would actually be living these things out (your char really is there, right?) over years and years, and saying the ridiculous statement that no, they aren't really evil. Just doesn't make sense.

And let's be clear, Hayim didn't come to this lightly. It wasn't just a day, a week, a month, a year, it was decades, hundreds of hours real time, of his life. It was a considered decision based on empirical evidence. And he did indeed try other means. He spoke to nexuns and Kassibaz in particular, who said, flat out, "I won't ever stop attacking you or the fortress." I told him I would never touch him or anyone else in the nexus if they would just not attack the fortress. He said no, he won't stop. Put yourself in Hayim's or any fortressite's shoes, being told that.

Lastly on this, something to think about. The theory of the fortress and nexus *compels* them to fight. Why? Because if the marans do their job well, evil in thera will diminish. What happens then? Nexus needs to pick up that slack and bring evil more and more, to make their balance. So, the better the fortress does in its war, the *more* evil nexus has to do. Eventually, in a world where the fortress comes close or wins the war, then nexus must do evil every second of every day. They wouldn't think of themselves as evil, they would be trying to balance out the big pile of goodness. But wouldn't they really be evil? Something to mull over, and yet another reason why over time a fortress character, like Hayim, must almost necessarily come to the same conclusion he did.

Yeah, long post, I know. But at least now some of you might understand the issues.

I'm tired of typing and so I think I'll skip the individual goodbyes, good or bad. Except for one.

Haidoril you big loser. Totally missed you for three weeks. Other than Iunna, you were without doubt the most fun for Hayim (and me) to hang with, and I really had great dreams of us spending many years raising cain and wreaking havoc.

Oh, thoughts about spear/mace. Impale failed far more than I ever thought it would, even more than my dagger skills failed on my recent dagger chars. Shockingly often. I agree it should fail sometimes, but on behalf of future spear warriors, I might suggest the success rate be tweaked just a bit higher. And yes, I play mages now too, so I'm not just trying to help myself. ;)

I'm sure five seconds after hitting post message I'll remember a bunch of things I intended to write, but for now I think that's it and it's sufficiently lengthy. Depending on my time and motivation in the next week or so I'll try to put together all the logs I have, which are more than a few. Probably post them on dios since for some reason the logs here seem to really slow my system down, but one way or the other.

Sorry, mate! Would've liked to have been around a bit more but you know how it is. You were fun to be around for the most part but you've gotta keep that chin up! Roll up again, Maran are thin enough as it is.

nt

Before I start with my brief goodbye/kind words, let me talk about the Nexus/Fort thing.

In my view, Nexus would be the lesser of two evils. Certainly I wouldn't want any true Maran to ever accept aid from Nexus, but they also should not be hunting them down and killing except in defense.

I do think a lot of the problem is in the way Nexus is run. It seems there are times when the 'Kill everything and have a valid excuse' role is the norm in the cabal, but I have found two or three characters with depth who bore the Nexus tag.

I am sure we ranked together at least a little and I truly thought you played a very good elf. I definitely got the vibe that you felt RP was important and that you were very into your role. It was a pleasure to travel with you the three? times we did and it's a shame I've had rotten luck/bad login ability so I couldn't join you in the Fortress.

I hope you play another character, for CF needs people like you.

I can envision a scenario where an individual Maran has a "friendly" relationship with a Nexan. Two gruff soldiers who share a mutual respect and admiration for one another, but who have philosophies that, at times, put them at odds with one another.

Baerinika: what really angers me is that despite your oft-repeated protestations of "it's not personal, etc." it in fact is personal. And I say that with confidence now (not that I didn't think it before) because of what you wrote in the pbf. Among them, this one was particularly illuminating:

"Heh I know he's trying to push Baer's little Baer Buttons on purpose because of his irreverent ARR PEE but man Baer can't stand this guy."

No, I wasn't trying, ever, to push your buttons, or anyone else's. He acted the same way to everyone. I called you by your first name just as I did everyone else, mortals and Imms the same. I didn't treat you in *any* way differently than anyone else, until you explicitly said you didn't like me and didn't like that, and so I changed, and started calling you "Lady" and all that, an honor I didn't give to anyone, even Iunna. More, his informality was in his role, and it was universally applied which you would have known (did know anyway?) from watching him for even five minutes.

It's not all about you. But you seem to think it is and as a result wrongfully take it out on people. And the scoffing, insluting tone of your post with the caps ARR PEE shines through. It's obvious from that what you think as the player, not just what "Baerinika" thinks. Tone does come through, sometimes.

I hope you will focus more on my other post, because those are the real issues facing the game, but I didn't want you or anyone else to think I was simply being irrationally upset at how I was treated. The pbf was very useful for that.

Wow that's a wall of text.

I don't know whether it's intentional, or something you don't even realize you do, but you definitely have a way of noticing things that support the conclusion you want to draw and ignoring the things that contradict that conclusion.

It's not worth arguing about, to me. It just is what it is.

The problem with the whole "evil is what evil does" argument is that CF has fixed alignments and the ability to detect them.

At its root, "evil" is a heart issue. If you have a red aura, it means whatever you're doing, you're doing it from a place of evil. If you have a golden aura, it means whatever you're doing, you're doing it from a place of goodness.

Now, obviously auras change, and people are supposed to be role-playing their alignment. That's why you don't see elves punking orphans and keeping that golden aura.

In the case of Nexus, I can very easily see how a Nexan could kill Fortress folks and take the orb and not be "evil". The Fortress is basically an army. So when Nexus attacks it, it's an army-on-army thing. It's not like they're running around raping peasants; they're attacking soldiers. And, for the most part, they're doing it out of some sense of "solemn duty", instead of out of blood lust, sadism, greed, etc.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

(If you aren't Graatch I'd be amazed beyond belief)

You like to play this total hardass Maran...I recall it quite well when I played Darascus and you played Gwevfeldr. I think you may have also played Aevum (same personality), but who really knows. I can't remember, and no one ever claimed that character. Anyways, you have the same gripe with this character.

You like to call people out and drag out your version of a righteous cause. You do so with great zeal and after the character has run its course you always follow up with a long, utterly emphatic diatribe (defined as "a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism"). At this point it becomes obvious that the assholishness you may have (and most likely did) exhibit with your character wasn't roleplay at all, but your bitter self reaching out to do harm through the internet since it would be unacceptable for you to do so in your real life.

What no one else can see, and what you certainly will not ever show, is how utterly distasteful you can be to try and play this game with. You'll, of course, rebut with something along the lines of "if you can't handle playing a good-aligned character the way a good-aligned character should be played, you shouldn't play one at all," to which I will curtly respond with "go screw yourself." Why? Because, at the end of the day, when you are really into a character...dude, you aren't playing a game. It's like you are really there and the people getting waxed in ill-conceived Fortress raids are your siblings. You get *personal* and scathing in the extreme.


Look, you've always been a talented player. You're a smart guy. But, you're an asshole bro. Let other people (especially the Imm governing a cabal) have their view of things, and if it's necessary for your character to kinda bend to that to make the game experience work, well ####in do it and stop bitching.


In real life, every Maran would be hunted down and killed for being a mass murderer. In real life, good is most often seen as "lawful," which the Maran are not bound to be. They'd be seen as terrorists.


I'm expecting a long-winded response wherein you try to ignite old rivalry between our long-dead characters. Or, you'll keep it brief and as cutting as possible. How about we just leave it at "you have your way, and everyone else has theirs...and that's okay."

f

Despite all that stuff, I wouldn't want to see you leave the game. You are good, and you have the ability to make the game fun for other people, and not just yourself. Just lighten up brother!


Sorry if you feel like I was being too critical of you. I know you have always taken a lot of #### from the playerbase...not saying it's unjustified. But, the vocal minority has a way of blowing things out of proportion.

We fought a few times. You got me that once and then I decided I should actually use iron daggers, I got you and the first word was "lucky" from that point on I really had little to no respect for you given the circumstances.

For whatever reason you let your IC OOC frustration bleed through and I realized you would shortly (most likely delete). I enjoyed are spars, its always interesting going up against a Maran with conviction who thought us nexans were pure evil, keep on trucking.

Loved our fights. And I always knew you'd be up for one. Also, I give you big props for rp'ing your goodie with me. You were always trying to convince me to give up me evil ways. You're a foe I'll miss! Although, I wanted to get you one last time!

I'm not sure where I come out on this debate. I definitely think the IMM take on "good align" roleplay has shifted strongly towards what used to be Dawn/Acolyte since Shokai left and Baerinka took over as the #1 Maran IMM. But that doesn't bother me so much as the incosistency with which this new evolution is enforced (as I've discussed before). As a person, I'm generally OK with working under someone's "rules" when I agree to work for someone. And if I were agreeing to join the Fortress or become a Baerinka empoweree, I would do it knowing I would have to roleplay a certain, restrictive type of goodie. It's a little disappointing that there is no longer a wider variety of good-align IMMs, in particular Fortress IMM leaders, but you have to play the cards you're dealt.

It seems to me based on what you wrote that you could have played the hard-core role you're talking about without being turned neutral by following Iunna, but that you cannot play that role in the Fortress. At the end of the day, that's not the worst possible outcome and on a selfish note, you've shown me that Iunna is one way for me to play a role that appeals to me.

Anyway, welcome back :)

Ultimately did not get along with Hayim after a somewhat limited interaction, but I did admire your rager-like determination.

What should I change? I honestly wasn't around during Shokai's hayday of running the Fort so I really don't know how we differ. I really want to do it right and I value advise.

Thanks.

everyone will say that your(baerinika) rp is right and good and somebodies else wrong :). Though they can keep bitching, like most of players bitch about "gold days" of cf. Or they just bitch because they need to bitch about something :)

I don't think there is "right" or "wrong" running of Fortress. If you like to run it the way you do it, why should you go against your nature? :P

Now, I haven't played much goodies for a while. But I've had at least 3. 2 paladins and 1 warrior, all gunning for maran.

The first one was actually empowered by Shokai and was during his days. (8 years ago...) The second was also following Shokai. (It was when I returned to CF and didn't know he was gone)


To one extent I agree with the dead guy whom's thread I'm hijacking, and that is this:

If I have a goodie char, who continuesly during ALOT of years (In this case an elf, so hundreds) keeps doing evil things, raiding the fortress etc, then I will consider that char evil.

Perhaps that person isn't evil, they don't have to be. But how would I know? Of course, as a maran, you would have to consider this, and investigate this, why is this person constantly doing evil? Is there some other reason? Do they have to? If they're forced, do your best to help them stop etc... BUT, if there are no other way, KILL THEM! Kill them for the great good. Or make them stop in some other way so they can't continue to harm innocents.

What I've felt when I've been in the fortress is that the marans are a bit to "goodie goodie", from what I remember they used to be way more hardass. ^^ :D

I hope what I've said has made some sort of sense and is of some sort of help. ;)

>Perhaps that person isn't evil, they don't have to be. But how
>would I know?

Well, as a Squire or Maran, you've got detect evil as a power. If they don't have a red aura... they're not evil.

Think of it as the Gods of the Fortress helpfully color-coding souls for your convienience!

(That's not saying there's never a reason to kill a neutral as a Fortress character. Surely there is -- but it's never because you can't tell the difference, unless you've got a character who basically believes the Gods of the Fort can't tell their ass from a hole in the ground, in which case you probably have bigger problems.)

N/T

By have to, I mean a situation where they are committing an evil act. Your oblication to kill them stops when they cease to carry on with the evil act, your task in this case is only to prevent the evil act.

As for continuously, it works in a way that Imms turn chars that are too frequently evil to be actually evil, so when you start to see a red aura around them, they are always fair game.

It is the nexuns that are the problem that way. If you ask a nexun, as a goodie fortress maran, to stop attacking the fortress and cease with the evil, they will just tell you "No". Since they just can't do that as they believe in Balance. But, from at least MY point of veiw oocly they ARE infact EVIL. They believe in balance, so they sometimes do evil things to balance the world. Does the good things they do later to balance make them good?

I find it very hard to buy that argument, and LOGICALLY it is VERY hard to defend. But I understand why it is setup like that in CF, but perhaps there should be some sort of somewhat logical explenation to why things are like that.

So, in short: Nexus to me are evils, thinking they're neutrals as they try to balance things by doing good and evil stuff. Doing evil things repeatedly MAKES a char evil in my book.

Hrm... Just as I wrote that last part I realized that I had to review a few things in how I think... It is a VERY complicated matter this. And I'm actually not convinced of what I just wrote. But what I wrote was my spontanius thoughts.

I don't think there is a "right" way. Shokai had his heyday, and now you have yours :)

IMO there are two differences between you and Shokai: (1) Shokai was much more hands-off than you seem to be (he was an admitted "deadbeat dad" afterall), and (2) Shokai was much more willing to unleash the fury on neutral aligns than you seem to be (to the point he'd order Maran to multi-kill someone that offended him enough). At one point Shokai went so far as to call neutral aligns "speedbumps" for some Maran. Also, from my recollection Shokai always had a larger supporting IMM cast with a wider variety of approaches than you do.

The point of my post, though, was that things change and right now there doesn't seem to be a place in the Fortress for the "old school" Maran roleplay. But based on Hayim's success with Iunna, it looks to me as though there's still a place for it for empowered characters under the "good align" rubric - just not in the Fortress. That was good news to me because I don't think I could play a good align any other way :P It will be hard to avoid temptation to at least try to do it while in the Fortress though.

Also, while I have your attention, please consider the contradiction between your views re: good v. good attacks and how Darsylon guards and Tar Valon guards respond to good align criminals. Personally, I think these things should be consistent and that good align guard should not murder good align criminals .. or at least no elf on elf action.

>Personally, I think these things should be
>consistent and that good align guard should not murder good
>align criminals .. or at least no elf on elf action.

I think Darsylon guards do treat elf criminals a little differently, FWIW.

.

1) Be less rational and maybe a bit more drastic in your way of approaching who/what to call evil. What I mean is that the Maran are extremists and they should act like it.

2) Hard-code a system which, in addition to the current red and gold auras, would indicate how far a character has slid towards one or the other based on the pc's they've killed. I don't know if you guys have an imm-tool that shows this, but allowing a Maran to use an ability to show that a neutral character is "in the red" would be kinda handy, I think. This way we don't have to wait for an Imm to actually notice all the ####ty stuff that a character is getting away with. Basically, automate the system a bit and take some of the imm footwork out of the equation.

>2) Hard-code a system which, in addition to the current red
>and gold auras, would indicate how far a character has slid
>towards one or the other based on the pc's they've killed. I
>don't know if you guys have an imm-tool that shows this, but
>allowing a Maran to use an ability to show that a neutral
>character is "in the red" would be kinda handy, I think. This
>way we don't have to wait for an Imm to actually notice all
>the ####ty stuff that a character is getting away with.
>Basically, automate the system a bit and take some of the imm
>footwork out of the equation.

Question is, does that also take too much player choice out of the equation?

For example, Hayim wanted to fight Nexus because he'd seen them attack Fortress and the like. I virtually guarantee that every Nexun he wanted to kill (possibly barring the PK incompentents, since, if you've only killed 2-3 PCs in your life that's a small enough sample size to queer any kind of statistical analysis) had killed a lot more evil PCs than good PCs. Under your system a character like that basically couldn't ever fight Nexus.

A mage Fortguy would probably see that the neutral Battle trying to kill him had killed a lot more evil than good, too. (Mostly, but not completely, because of Empire being what it is.)

Is that an improvement? I don't know.

--For example, Hayim wanted to fight Nexus because he'd seen them attack Fortress and the like. I virtually guarantee that every Nexun he wanted to kill (possibly barring the PK incompentents, since, if you've only killed 2-3 PCs in your life that's a small enough sample size to queer any kind of statistical analysis) had killed a lot more evil PCs than good PCs. Under your system a character like that basically couldn't ever fight Nexus.--

But what this would indicate to the player was that yeah, though hes been fighting against the fort, he is aiding us most of the time, so the net result is good for Thera. Perfectly balanced neutral attacking fort would then be the X factor.

This system would also help nexites with maintaining their own personal balance as well.

...Making it an Acolyte/Scribe ability? That way, if a Maran is suspecting that a neutral is being completely heinous he can request that one of them go and basically determine whether or not the person should be dealt with violently. I'd only suggest that it give a semi-vague reading such as "You sense that Nepenthe has slain the humble on numerous occasions," or in extreme cases, "You sense that Nepenthe's soul is awash in the blood of the innocent!"

In the first case I think Hayim's dilemma would really apply...I mean you either can or you can't, and there may or may not be consequences. The latter case would probably apply to real abusers (or seasoned, deathfull nexuns), in which they've gained a reputation for their deeds.

Anyhoo, I think it presents an interesting synergy if this were allowed for the peaceful half of the Fort. You know, let wisdom run its course before getting violent, and all that.

Maybe it's already been referenced! I don't know!

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=4174&mesg_id=4175&page=

And I guarantee it was not referenced. I can't believe you even found it :)

I find it really disappointing that she won't even defend herself and explain her side of the discussion. Having played for over a decade she is one of the worst Imm's that I've run across. It would be a blessing if she deletes sometime soon so that someone who actually has a brain can take her position as the #1 goodie Imm.

Setting your exceptionally intelligent rebuttal aside for the moment, there is one basic misunderstanding that you, Hayim, and some others in this thread seem to have.

Hayim:
"The worst part about it - and where I'm surely going to get some sort of sarcastic insulting reply (though I hope not) is that the number one goodie imm, the imm (now that shokai's gone) that is really the face of the good alignment, is flat our wrong in her definition of what evil is."

No insulting, sarcastic reply here. The fundamental problem is that we sometimes forget that the immortals of this game have roles that they play as well. In Baer's eyes, the definition of evil is exactly as she sees it. You don't have to agree with it, and she doesn't need to explain or defend it - that's just how it is to her character, and she interacts with the fort exactly as her character's role requires. Just as Yean doesn't run the village like Thror would, Baer doesn't run the fort like Shokai would. That doesn't make it right or wrong, just different from before.

If you fail as a Baer follower, then you didn't get her religion. It happens - successful tattooed religion followers should be rare precisely because of how difficult it is to align your role to a narrow religious view of the world. (For what it's worth, even immortals playing mortal characters miss the boat on other imms' religions).

That said, Baer is an immortal and a staff member, and as such it is her desire to make this game fun for those who play. She's already mentioned above that she is open to cabal suggestions, since she wasn't around when Shokai was running the Team Good show. That tells me that if there is an improvement to be made regarding her interactions with the Fortress, this is your chance to make a difference. If there is something that she can do differently (without breaking her role) then I'm sure she would be open to constructive ideas. The caveat, of course, being that she doesn't have to implement any of them, and things may or may not change from how they are.

And if you DO want to make a difference, your post is a good example of how not to do it. If this is any indication of your mentality in game, it's no wonder you failed as a Baer follower. And that's a lot nicer of a response than you'll get from most folks.

why did you answer that idiot at all?

I mean smart people already understand everything you wrote above, those who want bitch will bitch regardless. It's clear that he is one second bitch team :P so just ban his sad ass for insulting your wife :)

n/t

>why did you answer that idiot at all?
>

Our perspectives sometimes blind us from what might be obvious to others. This post was based on a recurring perspective from other (albeit far less insulting) posts regarding what Baer should or should not do with her character. I thought it apt to remind folks that we're all players of the same roleplaying game - even the staff. So before this devolved into a flamefest, I opted to redirect it to something constructive; something that might help a person broaden their perspective the next time they find themselves struggling with a character.

I think your wife is okay, though. She definitely adds a positive presence to the game.

That said, I like your characters and I like your detailed answers to questions, but you are dodgey as hell about some things that are flat-out broken. We all have our flaws, though.

Intriguing rumor potential: 4.5 out of 10.

I was starting to think there was something going on I didn't know about! ;)

“No insulting, sarcastic reply here. The fundamental problem is that we sometimes forget that the immortals of this game have roles that they play as well. In Baer's eyes, the definition of evil is exactly as she sees it. You don't have to agree with it, and she doesn't need to explain or defend it - that's just how it is to her character, and she interacts with the fort exactly as her character's role requires. Just as Yean doesn't run the village like Thror would, Baer doesn't run the fort like Shokai would. That doesn't make it right or wrong, just different from before.”

This really describes the fundamental flaw with Graatch as a player. He is a pretty damn good pker and a pretty good rper. The problem is every one of his characters are stubborn to a fault. You don’t interact with a Graatch character. You agree with his way of thinking or you are wrong and dismissed. This isn’t just Graatch, but he takes it to the extreme.

A lot of the playerbase focus so much on their role that they forget everyone in Thera has a role. People need to be reminded that role’s are there to give an overview of how your character will interact. I’m thirty-one now and don’t act or respond as I did when I was sixteen. Characters as well should develop over time based on their interactions with others in the game. This is why role updates are very important, because your vision of the character may have changed over time.

Now back to Hayim and Baerinka. I can see his point here that over time Nexan’s may have appeared to be more evil than good to his character. However as a member of the Fortress you sign on to follow Baer’s vision and authority. She is the leading figure in the Fortress. Her vision simply can’t be wrong, given the fact that she is the Fortress. If she says that dolphin’s are wicked and need to be turned into Tuna. Then by god I’ll be the one making Tuna fish. You as a mortal character have to respect and comply with that. The problem here was that you were interacting with Baer as if she were a mortal human. You said in the log that she was incapable of making errors. Why then did you not treat the situation that way?

You are a great player, but look for the flaws in your game and come back stronger.

I didn't interact with Hayim at all, so my only visibility into the character was limited to reading your role on pbf.

My interpretation of your role toward the end was that Hayim was beginning to slip down a path where his anger and rage might draw him further from the ideals of the Fortress. Hayim noticed this, and would make sure not to cross the line. But that's the line Hayim drew - how close would he be to the line the gods drew? Just from the role, it seemed like a good opportunity for conflict and redemption. I think that's the type of thing that makes a character interesting.

I'd also say that from your post, it wasn't just a character conflict, but a personal conflict where you might have been intent on being "right" as opposed to working through it as the character would. You can certainly blend the two, but based on the role, Hayim would then be a confused, downward-spiraling mortal arguing with a Goddess of the Light over what it means to serve the Light.

That's just my outsider's take on it.

I didn't see anything in the role about the informal nature of your interactions with everyone, gods and mortals alike. But like they say, first impressions are everything. If you offend a god, then they're going to pin that on the character - that's the first impression. It might be your role, but the response and impact on subsequent interactions is the god's role too. That doesn't mean that it is or is not personal, but my observation is that it is very easy to take an in-character rebuke personally, when the immortal was simply interacting as their role dictates.

This was back during the time when the Fort had three cabals inside it and such, so I don't know how much it would apply to today. I prayed and sat down with Shokai to talk about Nexus because it annoyed me that were doing "evil" things. What he told me was pretty simple, when all evil is gone from the world those of the gray path will have to choose their side. For now we should treat them as they are, neutral. When they hunt good people, hunt them. When they hunt evil, aid them. He told me that in they end they are not our enemies so to steer clear of raiding them...yet.

Now I couldn't stay with your whole post because about half way through it became more reading than I'm willing to do, but it sounds like you are ragging on the fact that fortress is not supposed to raid Nexus even after they raid the fortress. Fact is that's something that has never changed. Regardless of who was the head imm. We were never to raid them. Just my two cents.

Steve

I hope the arrogance was all done ICly and not bleeding over from the player because Hayim tended to get under my skin quite a bit. I really hated how he would attack Borkahd, get spanked, then mouth off about why. I can recall a couple times when he ran to a city to heal, returned right away, then complained when Borkahd pulled back. The complaining and whining really seemed to bleed over from OOC feelings but I may be wrong. I don't mind that sort of thing IC (I love to RP, ask any villager or Imm that snoops me) but like I said, it -really- felt like it was bleeding over.

I've noticed a lot of people that are great RPers and really put forth effort as long as they don't loose and when they do they tend to let their ooc emotions take over. I really hope that this wasn't the case because aside from that Hayim seemed like a solid guy.

I truly wish you the best of luck with your next!

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed by this, but I saw it coming.
You were quite possibly the most challenging follower I've ever had, in a
variety of ways, and I think that's what I loved most about the character.
Stubborn as #### even when you were wrong (and you were sometimes,
tough to take, I know), but I admired the strength of conviction and
how you stuck to your guns when the world was against you.

I don't know what happened towards the end that got you so defensive or
if it was just an overall loss of interest in the character that caused
you to be such a jackhole to Celenai and others, but I did what I could
to steer you straight. I guess looking back, maybe it seemed like I
wasn't in your corner either. I hope it didn't come across that way,
because that wasn't the case.

I probably spent more time interacting/hanging out with Hayim than any
other follower I've ever had, and I hope you had as much fun as I did.
It's still kinda ####ty that you deleted even after the whole conversation
of learning not to like people very much for that very reason. :p Still,
I liked this one more than most and you definitely won't be forgotten.

I think Hayim was the first to ever ask me for bourbon at the shrine, and
I found it pretty amusing considering I'm a scotch drinker. So here's one
more bourbon for you, scotch for me, and we'll split the beer.

Your song:

But if you never find
The heart to start all over again
Remember I was one
Who tried to be a friend to you
Well I know I tried
Yes, you know I tried
And I know you tried, too
-Concrete Blonde, Someday?

"Jackhole" is my new favorite word.

After all that and *you* were Padwei!!

That's just downright hilarious. And of course you were terrific as padwei.

So how much did you just want to rant at me sometimes as Iunna after our talk as padwei? ;)

Hope the new religion works out for you, you deserve to enjoy things.

Honestly I tried to be as hands-off about the whole thing with Iunna, for
obvious reasons, and hopefully I managed that. As Padwei, I almost
kicked you out of the cabal that day - it felt a lot like beating my head
against a brick wall. But you know I still love ya. ;)

NT

I wish we could have traveled more. My playtimes are limited to weekends off and on. Been focusing on mastering a few things of late.

While we didn't travel much, I thought you did a good job and I took notice.

Take care man.