Of course not.. But,

In terms of survivability and deathliness, how do you all
think that orcs fair? Is there any statistical info we
can get from moderators?

I personally read log after log of orcs sucking, I
have played an orc to .5 hero, and never was happy with
him. I think orcs suck. They learn skills slow, they
soak up damage like a mofo, their 50% wimpy was literally
HELL, everyone loves to kill them.. The list goes on.
OF all my characters, I'd have to say gnosh was my least
favorite powerwise.

Since I feel for the little buggers, I thought I'd bring
this up. So please respond with your feelings on orcs.

Anyway, that aside.

Orcs are fine. They aren't built to go toe to toe with some classes, that's all.

People gear them for damage, so necros and ap's can sleep them easily, but that isn't an orc deficiency.

When I last played an orc, the only class I had trouble fighting in the levels you are talking about, besides paladins was warriors. But even they weren't too much of a danger. If I didn't want to fight them, I moved away. If they were wounded or fighting a mob, I finished them off if I could.

Orcs have big advantages too. Forced march and elfskins means that provided they can see they are pretty much safe from the worst effects of plague. They are quite safe from thieves, on account of their size and their ability to ingest. If you see a thief, you can usually bash them to death. Most mages you can bash to death. Druids and shaman you headbutt instead.

There is a log on Dio's of an orc going up against a group of warrior, invoker and bard who were ranking on trolls, and therefore of around the level you mean. He ended up killing the invoker and getting away.

Well, here's where I'm coming from.

There are a lot of logs showing orcs not doing anything great.

Most of the orc kills, seem to be an attack of opportunity (eg, the orc caught someone at a severe disadvantage).

I read most of the logs with straklaw in them. He was always grouped, and he died soooo much. Seeing as he was the most famous orc chief in recent memory.. I assumed he might have some skill =P

There's a recent log of a midlevel druid killing (two) midlevel orcs (inside) of the grinning skull village.

The general trend that I see is that orcs get stomped.

Valguarnera said they were like (rangers or assassins)... but where is the stealth? =P I don't see pk happen much in swamps..

Valguarnera said they were like (rangers or assassins)... but where is the stealth? =P

I didn't say they had (much) stealth.

More that a lot of their most useful skills are done outside of combat. More utility than warriors.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

they do get stealth at higher rank. I can think of at least two nice caves to lurk in.

If you run a search for

orc

by name of poster, most of those are orc wins. The log of Gnarsh losing his flag shows an orc winning until he gets slept, which happened largely because he made a mistake and spinebroke instead of bashed again.

Thinking some more about orcs, they are pretty much safe from bleeding and poison too. Even crimson scourge. All they need to do is be able to see their bloody skins and have saved their strength in case they need to force march.

Neither used headbutt.

I've seen so many orcs die because they didn't use it, it isn't true. There was a shaman who used to kill orc after orc outside the village, until one decided to headbutt him at which point the shaman died.

Those two orcs should not have died. For starters, the druid could not have followed them through the village if they just retreated deeper into it. And as I said, they could have headbutted (might have required reduce). Headbutt lands very reliably, even at 75%. It is one of those skills that I'd use three practices on. Most I'd use two.

Both may have used metal weapons.

Neither seemed to make great use of bloody skins.

The log I am talking about, the orc wasn't in any advantage other than surprise meaning he got the first attack. The group of three all seemed pretty healthy, and had that orc used bloody skins he probably could have killed the warrior too.

I suppose since I've been brought into the conversation, I might as well speak up.
>There are a lot of logs showing orcs not doing anything
>great.

True, and there are a number of posts where orcs do rather well. Neither of these facts signifies anything either way. Logs tend to be a very poor way to get a feel for how a class/race/etc is doing.

>Most of the orc kills, seem to be an attack of opportunity
> eg, the orc caught someone at a severe disadvantage).

Uhm, well...yeah? Many times orcs die are that way as well. Give an orc time for three commands, and an orc has the abilities to get out of a fight, and get away. Secondly, well...this is the rather obvious part that most people don't seem to grasp. Orcs are just that, orcs. Cowardly, cunning, and NOT the sort to go walking around looking for anything even resembling fair fights.

>I read most of the logs with straklaw in them. He was always
>grouped, and he died soooo much. Seeing as he was the most
>famous orc chief in recent memory.. I assumed he might have
>some skill =P

You might also want to consider the fact that people don't tend to post themselves getting beat on anywhere near as often as they do of them winning. If you want numbers, Straklaw had half again as many kills as deaths. Also, again...orc. Not exactly the most concerned with fairness, and very much concerned with his own livelyhood, which worked rather effectively, considering Straklaw's constitution was still in the 20s when he Immort'ed.

>There's a recent log of a midlevel druid killing (two)
>midlevel orcs (inside) of the grinning skull village.

Well, I haven't seen the log, so I can't comment much on it, but one druid versus two orcs...failing EVERYTHING they could have done, I'm not really thinking of anything that would have prevented from the orcs either just waiting the druid out inside the village, or running away. (Briars yes, but then just wait in the village)

>The general trend that I see is that orcs get stomped.

Personally, the trend I notice is that orcs are very polar. They either stomp people, or get stomped.

>Valguarnera said they were like (rangers or assassins)... but
>where is the stealth? =P I don't see pk happen much in
>swamps..

Personally, I see orcs much more like rangers than assassins, on the fact that there is a great deal of an orc's fight which goes on behind the scenes, and not really noticed in the actual exchange of blows. Orcs have great utility, a strong offense, and with some clever thinking, a very suitable defense to combine with their insane hp.

I used to pride myself on being able to withdraw from any fight that wasn't on my terms. This idea was shattered by orcs. Any well played orc destroys my strategies to the point where I need help just to keep my ass alive. I'll learn to handle them eventually, but for now orcs scare me more than any necromancer or fire giant Battlerager ever did.

I routinely see mid-level orcs doing quite well, and most of the chiefs had looked more than capable. They're more like rangers or assassins than warriors, and the most successful players have exploited this.

I thought you weren't Gnosh?

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Look not to the tool, but to it's wielder.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

.