I'm starting a new post, because the old one is getting pretty jumbled and hard to follow. I want to start this post by saying that these are only my thoughts on the situation and they do not reflect the staff's views, outside of my own.

Let me start by saying that the number of edges that characters, as a whole, have had gotten completely out of control. The system was not working properly, so a change had to be made. Maybe we got it wrong, maybe we got it right, but we're trying to make it better. We are trying to make the whole edge system work more like it was intended to from the beginning. The way I see it, this will be a process that will evolve and change over time until we get it completely right.

Some random thoughts:

- One of the things I love about CF is that it is a growing, evolving game. Things change. It keeps you guessing and it's a fun wave to ride.

- It is hard, because, as an IMM, you really do want to encourage people to explore every nook and cranny of an area that you worked for a LONG time writing and trying to make fun. Seriously people, the process of writing an area in today's CF usually takes about a year, on average. But if you over-reward for that sort of thing, aren't you just encouraging people to stash their characters off in some remote part of the Theran landscape for hours on end while they explore? I've enjoyed doing that myself with many characters and there's nothing quite like putting things together and finally figuring out some quest in some area. But we also want diversity. We want to encourage people to interact with one another, be that with PK or with RP.

- We're watching. There is no way we can see everything, but we do watch and we do reward when we feel it is deserved. Trust me, we want to encourage people to interact more. And one of the ways we do this is with little bumps of IMM exp.

I'll stop here and I realize that nothing I say will appease everyone. I basically just wanted to say that we're trying to keep CF a wonderful place. It doesn't get said enough, but every IMM knows that it would be nothing without you, the players. We play because we enjoy it. We want you to play because you enjoy it, too. What we don't want is for people to feel like they have to sit there and bot through the same quests over and over again to be relevant. Trust me, you don't. If you have fun, it will shine through and you will already be successful.

Cheers and thanks for reading my random (and often times nonsensical) thoughts on the matter!

=w=

>Let me start by saying that the number of edges that characters, as a whole, have had gotten completely out of control.<

Had been saying that for years. The idea in principle was excellent (new ways to customize every character!) but in execution it left a lot to be desired.

As you mentioned, I can't imagine the original thought behind edges would allow certain characters to have soooo many. The idea (in principle from what I could glean from forum conversations) behind them was to make a weakness less of a weakness or make a strength slightly stronger. That's a great idea...but, you have to have checks and balances for that idea. I shouldn't be able to cover ALL of my weaknesses and make ALL of my strengths stronger.

I always thought edge points should be capped. You should only be able to get 5-7 edges total for a character, and they should be ranked in tiers. You get can take 2-3 from tier 1, 1-2 from tier 2, 1 max from tier 3 (tier 3 would be edges like Devious Versatility that impart a significant amount of power to a character).

Anywhoo, hope everyone is well, and hope the Holidays treats everyone well.

to support killing fun for people who actually play the game (unlike you).

5-7 edges for a character, seriously? You blasphemous lazy ass

You've spent 100 hours getting 31 edges and yet you've blown a gasket because you say that you are not able to compete. You have to wonder how the guys that have 4-5 edges get 100 solo pks, right? The old school in which edges weren't visible is not really of value as a comparison because the mechanics have been changed so I won't bring up the monster killers without "known" edges. And I do not have any issues with more imm control over the whole thing. I think what was feared would happen with edges happened. People go farming for 200 edges. And for the record the most I've farmed was 20 and it did not help my pk, although it helped in support quite a bit, but then I am not a good pk'er.

Me saying "why can't I have nice things" doesn't translate into "why am I not able to compete".

And that one char I had with 31 edges was quite able to compete.
Long before he had those edges too. The key edges are maybe four or five, others are convenience; if I couldn't have a character I felt convenient with, I'd probably never endure it to age death.

P.S. There ARE builds that become convenient to play with much less edgepoint investment. Most rangers and shapeshifters, for example. I just don't feel like playing only rangers and shapeshifters.

Not that it'll actually come to being limited to 4-5 edges.

P.P.S. Edges are also fun to just collect, like achievements.

As someone who rarely comments, and manages to still have fun regardless of edges and anything else, stop being a bitch and play the damn game...adaptation...it's worked for life on earth...

for being one more killjoy enabler. When he doesn't even play.

>- We're watching. There is no way we can see everything, but
>we do watch and we do reward when we feel it is deserved.
>Trust me, we want to encourage people to interact more. And
>one of the ways we do this is with little bumps of IMM exp.

My issue with this is that it makes that much harder for people who play off-peak (nightshift or other side of the world).

Capping is better than making the poor, poorer.

What about tiered edges? Like something like skullcrusher being the first in a series of exponentially more expensive edges. It would potentially allow for very broad edge customization or a much more narrow field which has greater value to that one tree or subgroup of skills.

I love edges. I think they make the game extremely fun in customization. I compare each character to previous ones and try to switch things up, but have the same or MORE edges.

Give the same to my opponents, lots of edges. I'm not interested and the excitement lessens if we enter into a world with LESS edges. The whole, well now EVERYONE has half edges just sounds depressing.

I'm not against change, let's try things out... But I'd prefer:

1) Make it possible to get the same or MORE edges with non-cheap methods. Tough retrievals, inter character role play, in addition to toning down auto role xp etc. I don't mind if you diminish role exp, but keep the ceiling HIGH for fleshed out balanced characters.

2) continue to increase edge options (like you've done with bards, Druids, transmitters, etc) so that even characters with TONS of edged can never choose them all. Keep adjusting cost to award rare or niche choices. Increase barren classes to make choosing harder.

I think a world of MORE or SAME edges sounds awesome if the quality and fairness of obtaining them is improved. Keep the ceiling and potential there, then I support the immortals in all sorts of ways in re qualifying how we get there and the weight of the different paths to acquiring edges.

I am a fan of more edges vs less. Character customization is one of the great things about CF, and also the reason I tend to prefer warriors (build that warrior!) vs shapeshifter (roll those dice!)

Although, I did luck out with an awesome set of forms on Zeke.

In general I think the ability to get lots of edges is good.

However, I don't think pk wins should always give lots (because people with lots of pk wins are already dominant). Edges for genuine pk risk (not just facing large groups because that is not always risky) would be good.

Role writing shouldn't give exp imho, other than by indirectly helping immortals recognise good role playing.

Other than that I think the current system is great. I never get all the edges I want, but I can still amass quite a lot. I'm cool with enemies doing the same. I think there should be more edges available to those that die a lot, to help them address the problems that come with that. For example, outfit command is free and gives quite nice gear and a bit of money, or perhaps a recall and a teleport potion.

I've had a character with 31 edges, and I could do with half that much, but I don't want to.

Maybe some of the more solid edge benefits could be reworked into the base character class?

I mean, keep those edges that allow you to specialize (assassin master and buki edges, ranger barkskin and hatred edges), but...

all mace specs take skullcrusher
all bards take perfect pitch
all shield paladins take autojab edges
all sword specs take seven winds of hamsah
all A-Ps take akragaka and steal sight

99% of the time if they don't take these edges it's because they cannot, not because they don't want to. Those benefits should just be built-in to the base skillset.

Not taken akagra on any of my aps. Wasn't needed.

I may be wrong about some of them.

Basically I agree that players choose different edges based on that skills they like to use most. It's not always about specialization either.

But there ARE some edges that are taken almost universally.

Essentially, if the staff feels the need to reduce the gap between "fresh" characters and "edged" characters, might as well reduce it by giving to the "fresh" instead of taking away from the "edged".

>But there ARE some edges that are taken almost universally.

Generally these either have a relatively minor impact (e.g., the impact of Skullcrusher each time it comes up is fairly small but for a character that wants it, it's relevant so much that it's still worth it) or have a high cost or both.

Which, I'm okay with, in that there is an opportunity cost for choosing them.

First of all I like this change. I myself have never no interest in farming exp for edgepoints. I would rather spend my time
roleplaying first and pking second. Once every 5 years i will role up a non cabled explorer and go check out all new items/areas etc.

Until now I didn't realise how much this was an issue. I have been playing for quite some time and pk ok but with my last character
often fought an assassin opponent Jycenna and couldn't work out why every single time I came out second best. I myself had only 1 edge:

Master of Nage Waza: Your martial art specializes in devastating throws.

Now perhaps I didn't roleplay enough, pk well enough whatever. My point is the old system made it very outbalanced when there were players like Jycenna wandering around with 25 edges and everyone else struggled to beat them.

So I for one love this change as I believe it will help keep things more balanced and yes with my current character I have spent more time
roleplaying and pking and have already noticed more imm's paying attention.

Thanks for the change.

Total PK Wins 197 (0 at level 48)
Total PK Losses 8

Jycenna's Edges: 25
---------------
Ground Fighter
Smoke and Mirrors
Exploit Vulnerability
Stalker's Eye
Master of Nage Waza
Deflect Missiles
Startling Strike
Killing Knife
Spy Network
Spy Master
Pinpoint Accuracy
Hand of the Phoenix
Silent Strike
Regenerative Focus
Sensei Buki
Master of Uraken
Killer's Mark
Master of Owaza
Exploit Vitals
Master of the Garrotte
Edges

Strong Back
Urbanite
Possessive
Seasoned Traveler

I appreciate this. Thank you.

So it sounds like there are two main issues you are trying to address:

1) Writing roles gave too much for edges.

2) Some people were racking up too many edges altogether.

In order to solve 1), you put a cap on role xp and split it from Imm xp. I think most people think this change is fine.

For 2), you figured to cut Obs/Exp xp to both fix 2) and hopefully promote the other ways of gaining Edge Points relative to Obs/Exp. Does that sound about right?

From the example you give, it sounds like Obs/Exp is still the biggest contributor to gaining Edge Points by far. This could change, of course, as some are repeatedly rewarded with Imm xp for roleplaying. But as far as reliable ways of getting edges, it seems like Obs/Exp is still the way to go. Any chance of making cabal xp matter more, and pk deaths?

I don't play much anymore, but it does seem that my style of play is left out. I try for religions, but I guess I don't play characters long enough to get tattoos. I've actually got more tattoos when not following a specific Imm than I have when trying to follow a specific Imm, despite trying to follow an Imm with probably 4 out of 5 chars. I've gotten more quest powers than tattoos from specific Imms over the course of the 20 years I've been around.

Maybe I don't play my characters long enough. Is that so wrong? What is wrong with playing two characters for 200-300 hours instead of one for 400-600?

Maybe I don't get enough kills. I actually feel bad about rock-scissors match-ups and make excuses to avoid those after I've seen it in action. I rarely play power combos. I don't play conservative enough. I don't prep enough.

Maybe I don't explore enough. I'm a slow reader. My time is limited. I rarely play characters that are suited for exploring due to build or rp.

You may be asking: Why do I play CF then? I enjoy trying different builds. I enjoy good PKs. I enjoy cabals. I enjoy big fights. I even enjoy getting a nice piece of eq from a mob every now and then.

I think there are some admirable aspects of giving out Imm xp for random RP. Assuming it is given out to characters of all levels, and frequently, I think it could be great.

But can I be honest for a minute? I don't have faith in the Imm staff. Roleplaying in CF has grown leaps and bounds over where it was when it started. I realize this makes it even harder for good roleplaying to stand out, and impossible for some people to ever get noticed. Roleplaying shouldn't be a competition. It should be collaborative. Everyone should win. Yet when it comes to roleplaying, the Imms seem distant at best, and impossible at worst. How many characters get tattoos at level 25 anymore? Why?

The Imm staff have always said don't play for Imm rewards. I know a lot of it is because they are so busy. They have a lot on their plate. And it's subjective. I get it. And people playing in off time zones? Yeah...

I sometimes get the feeling that Imms don't want to "invest" in a character until they know that character is going to stick it out. This is a toxic idea, in my opinion. Shouldn't we be playing for the fun to be had right now instead of always preparing to have fun or looking forward to fun later?

Okay, I agree not to play for Imm rewards. Then here you are asking me play for Imm rewards. Either that, or grind out Obs/Exp for half the Edge Points.

Thanks for reading my own random (and often times nonsensical) thoughts on the matter!

Hutto

>Thanks for reading my own random (and often times nonsensical)
>thoughts on the matter!

Nonsense; that was perfect my good man!

+1 internets for you (I think that is the trendy thing to offer someone these days)

A few thoughts interjected:

>1) Writing roles gave too much for edges.

People often complained that writing and continually updating a role had become more mandatory because of edge points, and talking about it we agreed. There was a point years ago where it was like pulling teeth to get people to give a little detail about where they were trying to go with their role play, but after years of role contests (which also have seen their magnitude of rewards pared back a bit in the last year or two) and edges we felt like it had swung a bit too far in the other direction.

>2) Some people were racking up too many edges altogether.

Definitely there are a fair number of people (imm and otherwise) who feel this way. It's not something I get extremely upset about personally but I can see the point.

>For 2), you figured to cut Obs/Exp xp to both fix 2) and
>hopefully promote the other ways of gaining Edge Points
>relative to Obs/Exp. Does that sound about right?

There's also a 3), which is that people pointed out that (especially, but not exclusively, because of some people scripting it) Obs/Exp seemed disproportionately high as a source of edge, and as I thought about it more I did agree with this. Edge awards for these sources were balanced around the amount of exploring that was common at the time, which was a fair bit less than today. There were, then, still a handful of characters at any time that had a ton of exploration XP but most characters didn't have much.

So there's a desire to reduce that somewhat, and I personally am in favor of introducing other, new ways to gain edge to compensate (which might, in turn, see reductions elsewhere, or not, depending on how we feel it best works.)

For example, awarding edge for difficult/dangerous cabal raids.

What you see today is a corrective step and I doubt it will be the final disposition of how edges work. I'd even be surprised to see it exactly the way it is today in a year.

>How many characters get tattoos
>at level 25 anymore? Why?

There are a number of reasons, but one big one is that most people blow right past level 25. Level 25 characters that have more than 10 hours I would say are in the minority.

I know recently you went in and toned down a lot of things in there for "todays" CF, and while the place is fun, the massive imm exp grind to get there isn't. I think 2k imm exp is a little high, maybe cut that amount in half or something? Imms have been better about random interactions and tossing out some exp here and there for small things, 1k exp isn't an unreasonable amount to get but I have had characters with no role in the past have no chance at getting the imm exp to get in silent. It's a cool place to check out, I don't see the reason of having an imm requirement to hit the gates anymore. Let the new people get in, let people try and take groups in....lets make it more fun in that area all around.

Other than that, this is probably a good change, even though it hits an explorer like me hard. The extra amount of imm exp and immteractions flying around are more than making up for it.

I get what you are trying to do with this change. You are increasing the relative value of edges by restricting the potential to earn them.

Since my decisions on what I choose to take now have greater weight I would love to be a little more informed of my decisions.

Would it be possible to make the number of current edge points visible to a character as well as the cost for each edge when you discuss. I realize those edges you can take multiple times have a dynamic cost but there is only a handful of them.


To add weight to this request the data to reverse engineer these values is already public realm as a result of the Twist the season to be jolly. Now that all the methods and thresholds have been defined someone could take a few days grabbing data from the PBF and determine the relative cost per edges. Some people may have already done this.

This would be a nice bone to throw the way of the min/maxers who like to plan out the minute mechanical details of their characters.

Can we clarify what edges do more clearly in helpfiles please? There are a lot where you can't tell whether they are useless or great.

Not an issue when you waste 2 of 12 edges. Bigger issue if you waste 2 of 6.

How many edges did Cabdru have and how many would he have had under the new system? I only bring up Cabdru because when I returned to CF everyone was talking about his insane amount of edges.

Way too much has changed since then to even inaccurately answer that question for any character from 2006.

If my remarks on another thread are what prompted this question, I would point out that the character I made an example of existed as of something like a couple weeks ago, so doing some very ballpark math (and that's what it was) wasn't all that difficult.

Presumably Cabdru would have had plenty of edges under both sets of rules though, since the character was very diversified in the sense that he had a role, explored, PK'd, participated in cabal wars, was rewarded for RP, probably engaged in a fair amount of commerce, and so on.

I have no idea why this matters or how it's relevant, though.

Attachment #1, ( file)

I guess I think anything over 10 edges is excessive. I believe Cabdru had over 30 edges. Rylium had 21 edges. Instead of a system that makes it twice as hard for a newbie to get 1 edge, wouldn't it make more sense to increase the cost of edges exponentially so the more you get, the more they cost? So now a newbie who knew just enough to get 1 edge is robbed of that benefit with this new system. I would also propose a cap on the number of edges, 10 or maybe 15.

Are 6 crappy edges equivalent to 4 good ones? If you exponentially increase cost the guy that wants lots of crappy edges suffers relative to the guy that cherry picks a few uber ones.

This is exactly correct.

Not to say edges are 100% perfectly balanced, but we can come a lot closer if Devious Versatility can cost a huge amount of points and Strong Back can cost a small amount of points without needing to try to make them equally good because you only can have X number of edges ever.

A lot of the edges for skills nobody ever otherwise uses are dirt cheap by design, because I think it makes for a more interesting game if there's a guy out there who thinks he can beat you somehow with Cross or Overhead and, hell, might even be right.

>How many edges did Cabdru have and how many would he have had
>under the new system?

None, and "more than none" respectively. He predated edges.

>I only bring up Cabdru because when I
>returned to CF everyone was talking about his insane amount of
>edges.

This is another one of those funny CF urban legends, I guess?

I thought when I came back a year ago, there was an a-p that had just deleted that was running around with ST gear. I thought the name was Cabdru but I must be mistaken since I learned that Cabdru was from 2006. Anyways, just ignore anything I posted about Cabdru.

I understand that the change to obs/explore XP means that most people will have less edges, so the change is one that keeps the playing field 'somewhat even'

The biggest issue I have with this change is that you've severely gimped one of the ways that a player can accrue edges without IMM intervention.

Please, provide alternate ways to accrue those edge points that don't require IMM xp, or some kind of staff given incentive that is based on an opinion, and ripe for favoritism/elitism.

Thank you.

>The biggest issue I have with this change is that you've
>severely gimped one of the ways that a player can accrue edges
>without IMM intervention.

Please see Umiron's post below regarding the unintended magnitude of edge points. The system was not intended for every character to get a large number of expensive edges.

>Please, provide alternate ways to accrue those edge points
>that don't require IMM xp, or some kind of staff given
>incentive that is based on an opinion, and ripe for
>favoritism/elitism.

I will continue to give imm xp when I see someone doing something deserving. As an example, on Monday I dropped xp on two random characters who RPed a cool conversation while ranking together rather than making it a grind. I've dropped more xp for decent descs last week than I did in the last month.

I don't care who the player is behind the character is, and I don't want to know. If you've already made up your mind that imm xp is based on favoritism, I'm not going to bother to dissuade you. It's not worth my time.

What I mean to say is, if you up the value of IMM xp in regards to edges, you will not see a decline in the claims of favoritism etc, and I don't think I'm the only one using the term 'favoritism' I would link you to the other posts claiming it, but gathering 20 links to posts you've already read will be a waste of time for both of us.

The root of what I hate about this change is that you are taking away control of character development from the player, and increasing the role of an IMM in the development of my character.

"People have too many edges" Ok - that is the opinion of the staff, and I'm going to go ahead and say its pretty 'obvious' that opinion is not shared by a significant portion of the playerbase.

>"People have too many edges" Ok - that is the opinion of the
>staff, and I'm going to go ahead and say its pretty 'obvious'
>that opinion is not shared by a significant portion of the
>playerbase.
>

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I'm not sure how you could have read the forums at all the last year or two (maybe prior to the last week or two) and think that.

Personally I don't have a problem with characters with lots of edges, but a *lot* of people have argued repeatedly for sharply reducing or eliminating edges. This is objectively true whether or not you think they're correct in that belief.

Was that that was more based on game changing edges than on number of edges.

That can be addressed by toning down the uber edges or further increasing their point cost, but leaving others the same.

Eg smoke and mirrors is a game changing edge. Don't see why it shouldn't be an edge that if you take you can probably only afford one or two others. Bit if you stick to edges like the one that makes dark vision last longer I don't see another objecting to that in principle.

To take an example, synergy of suffering (ap edge) used to be a game changer. I'm guessing it got toned down after cabdru? Anyway, after the change you could no longer be certain that it did anything at all. When you iceballed 7 people (including Necro zombie army) before, you got errands or unspeaks, but it changed to being something where you didn't move into the next damage range, implying that if it wasn't massively toned down, it was broken. However, I'm pretty sure any complaints you get about edges stopped including that one after if stopped being uber.

>To take an example, synergy of suffering (ap edge) used to be
>a game changer. I'm guessing it got toned down after cabdru?

By definition yes, since A-P edges came in about a year after Cabdru deleted.

I know that (Seemingly) a lot of people complained about 'grinding'. I must have missed, or glossed over the folks complaining about a lot of edges.

I guess, that while the change made does make the 'less edges' people happy at the same time, the same "grind" produces less benefit. Now, speaking from a min/max standpoint - people are still going to 'grind' this, and be grumpy they get less of a return.

I really think you guys could have some big wins if you implement ways to accrue edge points that are not grindy, do not require direct IMM input, and enhance things like PK/Exploration.

NBM's idea of hard mob killing for edge points is a decent example (who cares if I can walk through every room in seantryn sewers, and look at xyz in room descriptions...if I can down the blademaster I am rambo!)

Edge points for some deaths (raiding/defending/dying to an enemy cabal member/things that support cabal wars) could be another good idea. I know you've said in the past that you don't want to reward death..I agree with you 100%. But how about rewarding bravery against odds?

Honestly, I just dislike nerfs without some sort of..counterbalance? And as I've said, it really feels like I just lost a way to accrue edge points that didn't rely on following an IMM, and being active in RP'ing with IMM's.

I think that out of all the methods to gain edge points that the obs explore, and PK methods are harder for "newer players". I myself pretty much suck at obs/explore.

Fort, for example, are much better suited to that than others. Off peak players will suffer for lack of allies. It could still turn into a grind. That guy that toes a hard line and fights alone now suffers edge wise for it as well as from lack of allies. Hard mobs already yield good stuff.

Now if you died fighting hard mob I could see edge points being cool.

>Let me start by saying that the number of edges that
>characters, as a whole, have had gotten completely out of
>control. The system was not working properly, so a change had
>to be made.

Are you able to elaborate on this a little bit? Perhaps provide some PBFs of characters with excessive edges and we can breakdown where they got their edge points.

Wouldn't capping the number of edges be a better option as opposed to making the poor even poorer?

Again, it's an evolving process. We're going to be constantly evaluating it and re-evaluating it. I don't have a compiled list of characters, but overall, characters have more edges than we expected them to have at the onset.

Stay tuned!

=w=

And I use them since it's easy for me to remember characters I played. There are countless others that were similarly situated, basically any chars going religious, pk focused or farming the system are getting into double digit number of edges with ease by say 150 hours (assuming they hero in that time).

Allysia had 25 edges, not counting smite Imbalance which was Imm given for longevity.

I mean, even I think that's excessive, even on a char at 925 hours.
30K explore
52K obs
15K Commerce
208 Pks
6750 Imm xp

Salyeris 28 edges over 990 hours. All from points.
25K explore (damn villager makes it a little tougher)
39k obs
4K commerce
252 Pks
7850 Imm



And I can honestly say probably 10-15 of the edges on each of those characters I took just to take because I had excess points, not because I felt they actually buffed my char or were essential to them. They were helpful little perks that honestly, I barely noticed I had and probably influenced my playstyle/overall strength to a marginal degree at best.

I like edges and for people to be able to acquire them through varying means, but that route was too easy to farm for anyone that really cared to.

The focus should not be on total edges. It should be on value of total edges. Capping edges at say 5, well then I only take the top five edges in value.

If I take ten ten point edges or 2 fifty point edges, the cost is the same, but the outward appearance changes unless people are familiar with the costs of every edge.

Capping Points would be a better system, and then letting people earn them through whatever methods they favored most, but not making it so you can reach the cap solely by engaging in only limited aspects of CF.

So lets say you can earn 1000 Edge points total, but you also have an age based cap, but because of aging items, i.e. an arial wear a +9 years piece of gear to force himself into middle aged, then removes it so as to raise his cap, you do it based on hours
Young 0-50 points. (0-25 hours)
Mature Cap extends to 250 Points (26-100 hours)
Middle Aged Cap extends to 500 Points (101-300 hours)
Old Cap extends to 1000 Points. (301+ hours)
Any Points you earn beyond the cap are shelved and become available upon hitting the next tier.

Now you cap available points from sources
Explore 0-75
Obs 0-75
Commerce 0-75
Role 0-25, since there's a cap of 1500 role xp that gives edges points, this should be easy to max and encourage people to do it early. But if you forego a role, well, not a big loss. Though I think everyone should always have a summary basic role, so maybe make all edges dependent on having a role, even a bare bones one.
Cabal stuff 0-150
Imm Xp 0-150
PKs - Unlimited, but based on the progressive scaling of diminishing returns per PK like sort of exists now.
Hitting Hero - 50 Points
Hitting Old Age - 100 Points

Now you have a lot of ways to get to your hours based cap, and you can choose to ignore some of the ways if you don't like them, but you can't ignore them all. And if one phase is not to your taste, you can pursue others. I.e. you could maximize points with few PKs on this system, or with only PK (albeit that number would probably be beyond reach.)

And while people could farm for points, because they have an inevitable wait before they can use them, it's maybe not as much of a focus to farm for points early, because you know people similarly situated face the same cap, so they don't have the competitive advantage.

And yes, I firmly believe a 300 hour char at 51 should have noticeable advantages in terms of edges over a 50 hour level 51, as I've always viewed edges as what differentiates a grizzled veteran hero from a guy that is a hero, but hasn't been doing the craft for ages and learned those little nuances that make a the guy a true master.

I am sure lots of people have ideas for systems as well, and really, I think letting the Imms tweak things without mass outcry is not a bad thing, until you see how the new system works for a little while.

You nailed it right there - 10 edges might be most important, and others you take just because it's fun, not because they empower you.

So if those extra edges don't make a difference, why take them away?

Taking your example with bards, Allysia and Salyeris probably had different edges and tried different things. Isn't it nice to have customization options? Some edges could be taken (or not taken) for RP purposes even.

Now whenever you feel like rolling another bard, your points will be spent on essentials, reducing the customizability value. You won't have those 10-15 extra, those that "don't matter" but for some reason still need to be taken out.

Yes, edges are mostly convenience. But I like convenience, dammit!
Again, why can't we have nice things?

We all still get edges, this change isn't the death knell of edges for every char going forward. It's a reduction of the value of the most overly farmed sources (roles/obs/exp are all easily farmable) of edge points is all, nothing more. It's not that edges don't have any impact, looking through AP edges there are tons that look really nice and useful. Maybe there should be more opportunity cost in edge selection then previously existed. That I as a specific player don't care about certain edges and their impact does not mean another player wouldn't prioritize them differently. (Does a bard need seasoned traveler when they have travelers march at level 2? Maybe a human does because they have less mana so don't want to waste it on the song ever) Really, by making edges too abundant, you lose more of that customization/differentiation between similar characters, because we all end up having more then we need and taking the same ones inevitably as a result of there only being so many to choose from.

Even a lot of the best edges for classes have a marginal value, and usually have less impact than we players think they do, outside of those rare few like conjie familiar and summoning edges and DV. Maybe those specific edges shouldn't be edges, but be built into the class, so as to not make those classes feel like they have a disadvantage where they have to take those edges. Would thieves be happier if they got 110 thief points instead of 100, but DV no longer existed, and maybe they lose one or two niche skills as well so as to not make it a straight buff? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe shifters get 1 form reroll, period, instead of taking edges for the first and second. Would people be happy about that?

I honestly have no idea. But I think where CF is now, the perception of this change is far worse than the reality of it. Play it out for a month, and then tell me it was awful, because you've operated under it.

All things with change have the potential for poor results and bad consequences, but instead of predicting those and ensuring they come about, try to imagine the good. More immersive RP. Less rote farming runs at specific levels. More Imms engaging the PB. More people risking PK for the sake of garnering notice. Try to up your RP when you play, see if you notice more pats on the back. Maybe, even if not, you end up enjoying the game more. There is just as much potential for good things to come from the change as bad, and that's all I am saying.

Such as slaver edge for hero range orcs. (Which by the way would be impossible to get without skill learn, I spent at least 8 hours spamming it for 1% gain and over two orcs lifetimes have a combined 6% gain from use)

The other is nurderous rep for a non human neutral conjurer. Though maybe devil updates have changed this.

So there are roughly two reasons slaver is so good, from my experience.

1) Weapons specs i.e. polearm are very useful to have. Orcs do cool skills too, but they aren't *as* useful due to point 2.

2) Normal mob HP pets. I can't prove this entirely, but I believe Orc NPCs have (generally) absolutely terrible HP compare to say, a dwarf NPC of the same level. Presumably because of enslave. Since they also tank like bricks (see orc) they can't actually stand in front for long enough to get good use out of their cool skills where a giant warrior NPC can take a serious beating.

As an example, Krunk and a svirf healer nearly solo'd black dragon based on the giant polearm spec tanking (and rescuing) and only failed because the healer had #### for mana (see svirf). The only Orc NPC I can think of that would last remotely that long isn't slaveable. All the others would go down too fast to even be worth trying.

Which reminds me: Orc Skjaald(sp?) for Kiadana doesn't do Orc or Bard skills. WTF!!!! Make it sing cool #### like resist and stuff and be a cool slaveable pet. Santa Umi anyone?

Don't get me wrong, the higher HP and the weapon specs available are pimp.

But what really makes it shine is the total lack of even mid level orc, ogre mobs that are geographically near where you tend to be involved in PK.

The edge just makes it way more likely for you to be able to detour and grab one real quick (even if many still make the pilgrimage to the past). Just having the frost giants and rock troll off east road was the real deal, if you sprinkled in a few more 35-45 orc mobs near major cities/cabals/high volume transits then I would remove my comment.

Frankly I would prefer orc spec mobs to warrior spec mobs if I didn't have to run all the way to the village or up to near arial city to grab them.

Is that aps will often need general edges to cover their fragility. Like footwork, cover up, etc, where other builds can skip these. At least, any ap that doesn't want to find themselves permalagged unexpectedly by a very wide range of attacks indeed.

Also ap edges are nice but the cost is already such that your edges are probably confining you to using one, maybe two, weapons from your possible range.

>And I can honestly say probably 10-15 of the edges on each of
>those characters I took just to take because I had excess
>points, not because I felt they actually buffed my char or
>were essential to them. They were helpful little perks that
>honestly, I barely noticed I had and probably influenced my
>playstyle/overall strength to a marginal degree at best.

Well I had no idea who Salyeris was so I checked your goodbye thread (talk about roleXP farming jesus!) and you mentioned that edges bring a lot of advantages:
However, characters that age to gain perks just through edges and stuff, and so you can imagine I had a few by the end (28 edges I think I died with, non imm-given that I recall- I ended up taking some just because I wanted to see what they did), and that brings a lot of advantages compared to someone that is 100 hours.

So we agree, edges are in fact a big deal.

My point is that it should be easy to for players to get a basic amount of edge points. If Immortals think that people have too many edges, then let it be exponentially harder to obtain more than X amount of edge points. Not allowing a shifter who lucked out and got two defensive regen forms to "Roll the Bones" or "Spin the Wheel" without farming ImmXP is player hating. People enjoy edges, people enjoy experimenting with them - why reduce the fun stick? You actually WANT people to continue to play right?

As for edges for PKs; that's like a carrot on the end of a stick these days. Offpeak player counts are ####ing horrible. If I left it would cut the player count by 25%. If the player count was consistently above 30 (heck even 20) then it wouldn't be as much of a big deal. People that play prime time clearly have no understanding of this situation at all.

Suddenly 90% less haters.

Of course, you can't do it now after the fact because it would screw up a bunch of existing characters who just got halfway to the cap and will be stuck with what amounts to 1/4 of the original reachable points.

Even though I am one of those sadist that enjoy explore/obs grind.

Still love this game and been playing since Dec 1994.

n/t

Easy way for fun enclosed.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=57181&mesg_id=57241&page=

These are all good ideas (and, as you said, some already exist!).

As I said, this is an evolving process. We have plenty of ideas (some crazy, some not so crazy) about reducing the grind of observation/quests/exploring/etc.

There's more to come!

=w=