How about giving "useless" ranking classes the chance to quest for experience? Maybe in the form of.. you do X quest, you get a level. Playing certain classes requires that you wait around for long periods of time just trying to get someone to take the hits for you - it's very stressful and just plain annoying if you aren't lucky enough to be playing the right alignment/class at the right time.

Perhaps this is why it's good to have a permagroup of friends to rank you - if I didn't have some form of ethics, I'd be doing this a lot more. However, if you don't have friends, it doesn't encourage you to play anything but a man-at-arms class. Sitting around isn't fun. Sitting around doesn't really encourage progress. There's only so much practicing and waiting you can do with one character before you delete, otherwise you do have some form of mental illness, as was previously hinted at with the botting topic.

So, again, the questing option comes up - because it's an alternate way for those classes to get past the hard ranks. Perhaps this could be implemented, perhaps not. Otherwise, you will see more and more of the man-at-arms domination and less of the harder-to-rank classes.

Regards.

Pay the man, and he may/may not have heard a rumor or know of something that needs to be done in X area, maybe even 'Look for 'Person' if you come back and pay him again.

Make it rank based, so that a newbie doesn't get a hero quest hint, nor a hero the boots quest.

I know I've searched areas and found things that looked like they might be quests, and returned at various ranks, yet it never pans out. I am to the point where noone I know knows of anymore quests, I can't find any, or noone is willing to share, and a hint of one would be all I need to knock myself out trying to finding it.

-Cassman-

n/t

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

There are already many, many, many quests in the game. Some are limited by race, others by class, and many by level. If you are playing a "useless" ranking class, I suggest getting out and carefully exploring. You may find a quest at level 30 that wasn't available to you at 20, even though you had walked right past that spot previously, or had walked past it with previous characters at level 30. For your first time through areas, as I'm sure you know, you also get exploring experience.

So put on your thinking cap, get out of Galadon and the Inn, and go around Thera. You'll find lots of experience. You can just as easily lose it, so be careful.

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

I agree, trying to advance certain classes at certain ranks is a big pain in the butt. Then again, usually once you get a group it goes really quickly. Also, in most cases "big pain in the butt" doesn't mean its technically impossible, though in some it may.

My nominations for "most annoying to rank":

Pre-form shifter. Mitigating factors: you're probably human so you have zero xp penalty.

Pre-elemental conjurer. Mitigating factors: at least you can spam magic missile. Make mental notes of people who rudely refuse to group with you; if non-good, take great joy in gaunting them later.

Druid, all ranks. You're like a crappy healer. Mitigating factors: you have no xp penalty, although you're probably not human so there's likely some race-based penalty.

Shaman, all ranks. Even with sanc you're a mediocre tank and you don't do much damage unless you expend mana. Mitigating factors: you can summon. That makes ranking easier {and safer} in some situations. Also no xp penalty, except that you're probably not human.

Pre-enhanced-damage thief. You can't really tank and don't do much damage even with circle stab. Mitigating: no xp penalty, plus you can see hidden which is invaluable to groups that can't.

Necromancer, all ranks. You don't do alot of damage except in certain scenarios and are only a mediocre tank even w/ wraith form and vampiric. Mitigating: people want to be on your good side so you don't annihilate them later. Plus you can summon, and have no xp penalty (and are probably human). At low ranks you can spam chill touch for damage.

>Shaman, all ranks. Even with sanc you're a mediocre tank and
>you don't do much damage unless you expend mana. Mitigating
>factors: you can summon. That makes ranking easier {and
>safer} in some situations. Also no xp penalty, except that
>you're probably not human.

I've found giant/minotaur shamans to be among the best tanks in the mid levels.
Protection + Sanc + Giant Resist = Soaking Up Lots of Damage. Blindness helps too. Heck, I like frenzy.


>
>Necromancer, all ranks. You don't do alot of damage except in
>certain scenarios and are only a mediocre tank even w/ wraith
>form and vampiric. Mitigating: people want to be on your
>good side so you don't annihilate them later. Plus you can
>summon, and have no xp penalty (and are probably human). At
>low ranks you can spam chill touch for damage.

So true, but I look at necromancer's difficulty in leveling as part of their trial toward the Becoming.

You left out A-Ps and orcs.


Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

>I've found giant/minotaur shamans to be among the best tanks
>in the mid levels.
>Protection + Sanc + Giant Resist = Soaking Up Lots of Damage.
>Blindness helps too. Heck, I like frenzy.

I wasn't particularly enamored of my duergar when it came to ranking. And I was well practiced and geared. Sure I could do fine for a while, but then I was out of mana and had to rest for ~6 hours. Resist physical would have helped, yeah.

>You left out A-Ps and orcs.

If they can do damage then I don't consider them "hard to rank". All you need is to find a tank.

>If they can do damage then I don't consider them "hard to
>rank". All you need is to find a tank.

To be fair, at times that's very hard for these classes. Sometimes, finding a passable tank is the hardest part of the grouping process. Certainly it was the greatest limitation on my levelling the last few times I played orc or A-P.

That said, I agree that they're not nearly the most difficult.

I think a lot of people just don't trust them, which cuts down even more on ranking opportunities.

Race has a lot to do with ranking effort too. For example, choosing drow rules out Darsylon and Eregion to some extent, and choosing arial rules out silver spirits etc.

That said, I did a few quests within the last week and I notice the exp appears to have been upped considerably since last time I did them.

It occurs to me that perhaps you could make some sort of quest exp modifier, so that people who do lots of quests get more exp from them. Not a lot more, but maybe double or triple?

..that you actually still play mortals? If so, do you solely play them to "test" them or do you make serious characters (like all of my characters)? It's just that I remember you posting that you'd had enough of playing mortals, ages ago. Of course, I've posted about quitting multiple times..but hey, it's your fault that I've returned *mutters something about Nepenthe making CF too addictive*

"Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy."
- Albert Einstein

It's been a while now for me. It's not that I've gotten tired of the game; it's more that my life has just been that full lately.

Almost no character I play is 100% test and almost no character I play is 100% serious. As both someone who loves the game as a player and as an administrator it's almost always somewhere in between.

>My nominations for "most annoying to rank":
>
>Pre-form shifter. Mitigating factors: you're probably human
>so you have zero xp penalty.
>

Those claws and horns they get mean they can be decent enough now. Especially if they stocked up on wands when not ranking.

>Pre-elemental conjurer. Mitigating factors: at least you can
>spam magic missile. Make mental notes of people who rudely
>refuse to group with you; if non-good, take great joy in
>gaunting them later.
>

I agree lowbie conjies are pretty bad in this respect. Still, they can use axes, and that helps a bit.

>Druid, all ranks. You're like a crappy healer. Mitigating
>factors: you have no xp penalty, although you're probably not
>human so there's likely some race-based penalty.
>

I disagree here. I played a cloud druid (briefly) to about the mid 20s (whereupon I deleted as I never saw Oblain and needed to get into tribs to progress my faith). If anyone remembers he's the one that was going to be a trib. He was able to fill any role in his group well, from tanking (even before defenses) to damage.

>Shaman, all ranks. Even with sanc you're a mediocre tank and
>you don't do much damage unless you expend mana.

Giant shamans are great tanks. Also, they do (or at least did) ok against silver spirits.

> Mitigating>factors: you can summon. That makes ranking easier {and>safer} in some situations. Also no xp penalty, except that
>you're probably not human.
>
>Pre-enhanced-damage thief. You can't really tank and don't do
>much damage even with circle stab. Mitigating: no xp
>penalty, plus you can see hidden which is invaluable to groups
>that can't.
>

well, I know my trapper was pretty crap, but since then, they've had circle stab added. With my trapper, my best skill was to spam disengage so that I got autoassist extra attacks every other round.

>Necromancer, all ranks. You don't do alot of damage except in
>certain scenarios and are only a mediocre tank even w/ wraith
>form and vampiric. Mitigating: people want to be on your
>good side so you don't annihilate them later. Plus you can
>summon, and have no xp penalty (and are probably human). At
>low ranks you can spam chill touch for damage.

Necros are excellent groupmates now that evils can rank on evils, although not wonderful at lower levels (though I still don't mind them). Their disruption spell is comparable to any voker spell vs undead. One round lag and huge damage. Also, they can let their zombies take a share of the tanking. If you are worried you might kill the mobs with your zombies, rank on imm-blunt ones (which you can do for more than half the ranks to 47 for very good exp).

I think lowbie conjie wins my vote for crappy groupmate. Magic missile is ok, but they can't spam it for long.

Note: I wasn't saying these combos were "impossible" to rank and completely worthless to any group. Just that within the sliding scale of "easy/hard" they're on the "hard" side.

>Those claws and horns they get mean they can be decent enough
>now. Especially if they stocked up on wands when not
>ranking.

Better than before; still not good. Any supply of wands will likely run out during the first 1 or 2 passes.

>I agree lowbie conjies are pretty bad in this respect. Still,
>they can use axes, and that helps a bit.

True. And magic missile isn't bad damage for the mana cost.

>I disagree here. I played a cloud druid (briefly) to about
>the mid 20s (whereupon I deleted as I never saw Oblain and
>needed to get into tribs to progress my faith). If anyone
>remembers he's the one that was going to be a trib. He was
>able to fill any role in his group well, from tanking (even
>before defenses) to damage.

Hmm. Maybe restrict it to higher levels then. My ranking experience with druids mainly consisted of them doing poor damage (few sunrays and fireseeds) and healing me, the tank. They usually ran out of mana pretty quickly. The classes I would have preferred less than the druid to in that situation are: assassin (I was one), necro, shaman, non-offense/defense shifter and thief. Maybe ranger, but only if the third couldn't heal.

>Giant shamans are great tanks. Also, they do (or at least
>did) ok against silver spirits.

Ok, ok. Mine was duergar, and I wasn't satisfied. A giant shaman w/ someone to help w/ mana regen would do okay. But then you're stuck looking for someone who can help w/ mana regen.

>Necros are excellent groupmates now that evils can rank on
>evils, although not wonderful at lower levels (though I still
>don't mind them).

Was there a change in how xp is calculated for evil vs. evil? If not, then its hard to believe ranking on evils is actually worthwhile (compared to ranking on goods). It's always been possible, just not terribly efficient.

I will say this, though -- Black Sect powers are the bomb for ranking. I recall alternating fights with a fire anti-paladin once, and I was a tanky class. We hardly needed to rest.

my necros almost exclusively rank on undead. Avg exp is in the region of 700. At the low points, I'm looking at 400 or so. At the high points, nearly 2000.

Evils can rank well on evils now. There was a chance some time back.

Warriors tend to be one of the hardest classes to rank after a certain level. Transmuters, bards, healers, paladins, goodie conjurers once they all have an arcon on the other hand should have no problem rounding up a successful group. Of those four, I'd really only call the paladin a man-at-arms type class.

If your talking the lower levels, then yeah as has already been pointed out, there already are several quests that give experience. That help get past the rough spots for weaker classes. With a little bit of luck and poking around you can find quests that give anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand experience a pop.

>Maybe in the form of.. you do X quest, you get a level.

Right now it's do X quest, you get Y experience. Since everyone's
levels cost different amounts just give out 'a level' isn't going
to happen. We have a lot of quests at varying levels that have
experience as a reward.

>Playing certain classes requires that you wait around for
>long periods of time just trying to get someone to take
>the hits for you

Nothing requires you to do that. In fact, I strongly encourage
you to get out and find quests and anything you can fight to
claw your away ahead on your own while waiting for a group.
Get a couple other people who can not tank and make the worst,
most spastic group ever because until you know what you are
doing, sometimes that's just how you get ahead.

Take the time you're spending sitting around to find new ways to
advance yourself. The means already exists to do it, just find it.