I'm not a big fan of how religon is carried out on CF. It seems to me that there is no organization at all. Individuals roam around and pray at hidden shrines, and once in a great while, one of them is good enough to get a tattoo. There are no rules for religion, nothing to suggest conduct except for some (often) hastily written helpfiles. As far as learning to act how your god wants you to (if he / she doesn't have a good helpfile), you're supposed to depend on immteraction to do that.. Or use your best judgement.

Even worse off, the game doesn't do a good job of describing religion. Everyone is told to pick a sphere, but you can pick a sphere and forget it, and the majority of people do. A sphere is not a religion.. In-fact, the best definition I can get for religion right now (on CF) is: A sphere that has a god with a tattoo.. So all those spheres that cannot yield a tattoo aren't religions? They just seem like templates for combat to me. Sphere fire (I use fire to kill) etc.

There are no religious wars. No gods go in strict opposition to other gods. No one roleplays religious fanaticism. There are no churches. There are temples, but all of them seem to be vast generalizations of religion. There are shrines, but they are often one-room, never any mobs (that I've seen), never anything to read and immerse yourself in.



I suggest that we have some more religon in this game. I would like to see an invisible aura surrounding people who submit themselves to a religion. A spell or supplication would allow you to see what aura people have.

I suggest that we have some religions, (not) one for every god, certain religions can encompass several gods. These religions would need a code of conduct, and a place of worship, and a mortal hierarchy. They could mesh with cabals fine. It would just be another agenda for players to have.

For these religons, I propose we also have a tally system. If you kill someone of the other religon, you are rewarded. If you give a tithe to the church, you are rewarded.

it also exists on cf in a way. Many religions are quite vague and can have very different followers. But there are also religions that are close to cabals like Shokai and his marans/fortress.

There was also scarab who was very religious and had several nice roleplay oppertunities of preaching.

It is there, just not in the form that you want.

I'd also say that Scion has much more in common with a religious faction than a political organization, and I think you could make a similar argument for Nexus or Warlock. Scion is partially inspired by concepts takens from RL religions, just not very popular ones.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

*whew* One down.

There are no rules for religion, nothing to suggest conduct except for some (often) hastily written helpfiles. As far as learning to act how your god wants you to (if he / she doesn't have a good helpfile), you're supposed to depend on immteraction to do that.. Or use your best judgement.

There are plenty of rules for religions. Each Immortal runs theirs the way they like. The helpfiles are intended to be just a taste of what the faith is about. Generally, to learn more you work with the immortal, what is in their shrine, and other followers.

Have you played an empowered character?

Even worse off, the game doesn't do a good job of describing religion. Everyone is told to pick a sphere, but you can pick a sphere and forget it, and the majority of people do.

A spheres isn't a religion. They're akin to birthsigns, and represent a divine influence that should be a cornerstone of your roleplay. It isn't true that the majority of people ignore their sphere- virtually all of your better-roleplayed characters incorporate it into a role. In many cases it's the most emphasized feature of it. I'm not sure how you 'know' this, or if you're just making things up to suit your conclusions.

A sphere is not a religion.. In-fact, the best definition I can get for religion right now (on CF) is: A sphere that has a god with a tattoo.. So all those spheres that cannot yield a tattoo aren't religions? They just seem like templates for combat to me. Sphere fire (I use fire to kill) etc.

Honesty? Love? Wisdom? Peace? Fertility? I use Poetry to kill? How are these templates for combat? While there are spheres that associate themselves heavily with conflict (War, Combat, Rage, etc.), they are not nearly a majority.

Spheres aren't religions. It's a concept your character is drawn heavily to. Religions are belief systems which incorporate facets of one or more spheres. No sphere yields a tattoo- you can get a number of roleplay rewards for playing a sphere well, but not a tattoo. Most religions can yield a tattoo for dedicated followers, but you're being judged on the religion, and not (directly) the sphere.

I suggest that we have some religions, (not) one for every god, certain religions can encompass several gods. These religions would need a code of conduct, and a place of worship, and a mortal hierarchy. They could mesh with cabals fine. It would just be another agenda for players to have.

How would these differ from cabals? Currently, cabals have everything you describe there, although their belief systems are not described as religious in nature. But they each have several patron deities, codes of conduct, mortal hierarchies, their own place, etc. Your suggestion sounds redundant with this.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Yes, I have played an empowered character. ~200 hrs on the character. Although I asked through prayer for guidance, I never received any. I tried to develop something, and I only received immteraction once. (for the empower).

I am not complaining about the experience. I have nothing respect for the immstaff, I got what I wanted out of the character.

On the other hand, I would like to point out that help religon pulls up the help sphere file. The responses I've received from you, are the first clarificatoins I've had concerning the distinction between sphere's and religon. Thanks for the clarification, please consider making seperate religon and sphere helpfiles. Something to the nature of, "Religon is the responsibility of players."

I don't think that cabals are very religious. They seem more like groups of people who have the same political goals. Ragers hate magic, and that might be misconstrued as religious, but...I think it has been established that mages gather magic from their surroundings. Mages don't have to pray to get their magic. The rager hatred is more akin to a racial hatred.

There are no organized religons on CF. I am a big fan of cathedrals, with fervant followers. I think it is wrong to expect players to come up with this stuff on their own. Nobody wants more cabals. We do need some help coming up with some infrastructure to support religons. We do not want a single player character responsible for starting a religon... No matter how good their roleplay, that is WAAAaaayy too much to give to any body.

So basically, I'd like to see churches/temples devoted to worship of certain religons. There needs to be an incentive for players to follow these religons... Maybe tattoos and empowerment come a little bit easier for followers of organized religon. HEey! They're told how to act, and they know who to goto for help, and they can give tithes (oooh, that's an easy way to measure devotion)..

People are fighting for no reason. Add religon in, and we've got more, fabulous, ROleplay!

In all honesty, players wandering around all on their lonesome is not very religious or realistic. Historically, religon is used for political power. The masses want to be led! =)

So basically, I'd like to see churches/temples devoted to worship of certain religons.

We will name them 'shrines'.

There needs to be an incentive for players to follow these religons... Maybe tattoos and empowerment come a little bit easier for followers of organized religon.

You keep speaking like we don't already have religions. We do, and they're a complement to cabals. They're smaller and more individual-oriented, but they have codes, enemies, etc.

If you reread your posts and put the word 'cabal' in place of 'religion', you're asking for something that is already provided. Organized groups with defined goals that provide catalysts for conflict and roleplay. Adding a second set of organizations with similar structure and identical purpose would confuse matters, and I don't see it happening.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

That's personal worship. Religon is holy people telling others the word of god.

I think I explained that better in a reply to the other guy =)

That's personal worship. Religon is holy people telling others the word of god.

I think I explained that better in a reply to the other guy =)

It's not that I don't understand what you want, it's that I don't agree with it. You obviously have a very specific setup you want in mind, and I'm telling you why we're not interested in pursuing it. I even talked about it with several other Immortals to verify that I'm not some crazy old man, but it turns out no one I spoke with was remotely interested in the concept, so I feel safe speaking for the larger group.

And if you want to play a crusader/pracher/prophet archetype, you're more than welcome to. A number of people have made memorable empowered characters cut from this cloth, so to speak. All the tools are in place, despite what you are claiming.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

nt

Josiah has been playing CF for about a week and has decided that he/she/it doesn't like most of they way things are done. Josiah also thinks that we should just change everything because obviously it hasn't been working for the past 6 or so years. Nothing personal Josiah but this is the umteenth ridiculous thing you've posted in a week. Learn how the game really works first before you start protesting it all be changed. Also after you let everyone know who your playing, I must admit I found your RP amusing and witty, but you've got a long way to go if you think you going to get empowered with characters who pretend to hand out exctasy.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

"Josiah has been playing CF for about a week"

Try 2 years, on and off =P

"and has decided that he/she/it doesn't like most of they way things are done"

I love CF. stop trashing me because I come up with an idea.

"Nothing personal Josiah but this is the umteenth ridiculous thing you've posted in a week"

Try first thing, ever. No really, ever. (discounting Dio's)

"Learn how the game really works first before you start protesting it all be changed"

2 years and I didn't know about religon. Can't ask on newbie channel, can't ask in game (about ooc topics). Begging your parodn, this is what forums are for.

"empowered with characters who pretend to hand out exctasy."

The drugs I took put me in a state of ecstasy. The drug? Never more specific then a "powder". Please don't judge my roleplay, because... No offense.. I'm not doing it to impress anybody.

>2 years and I didn't know about religon. Can't ask on newbie
>channel, can't ask in game (about ooc topics). Begging your
>parodn, this is what forums are for.

Hmm, what kinds of characters have you played? What rank have you gotten to? I have to say, I'm really dumbfounded at the idea that you could play for 2 years and not know about religions. People get titles for their religion, there are notes pertaining to religions... there's a lot of information laying around.

Also, you can ask about religion on the newbie channel if you're asking something akin to "how does religion work in this game"

Something isn't adding up here.

I admit when I read this, I wonder what mud you've been playing, because I'm relatively sure you've not been playing CF. There are a loooooot of religions that basically say 'I'm right because my god says so...and you're toast for the same reason'. As for well defined religions? Have you bothered to do any amount of talking to tattoo'd characters about their religions? I think you'll find out that some are so detailed the character can even tell you IC what will happen to them after they die. Additionally, your claim that there are no 'relgiously motivated' cabals is pure crapola. There are two that come to mind instantly as religously motivated cabals. Admittedly one currently doesn't exist exactly.

I agree with Valg, I think you've got an idea of what CF should be like because of some past MUD you've been on, or just personal prefrences. I think it's hurting you badly on CF because you refuse to see what is here, instead you keep looking at what isn't. Instead of seeing the game we've designed you're looking at the game you think you'd like. Try closing your mouth a bit and opening your mind. I think you might find out why CF has as many repeat players as it does...who knows, you may end up enjoying yourself instead of finding things wrong around every turn.

I haven't finished reading the thread, so if someone addressed these things before me, I apologize for covering the same ground.

>Yes, I have played an empowered character. ~200 hrs on the
>character. Although I asked through prayer for guidance, I
>never received any. I tried to develop something, and I only
>received immteraction once. (for the empower).

Not a relevant comment here really, but that reminds me of Pescipturian, who once claimed that by getting one empowered character he knew more than anyone who wasn't playing an empowered character. Hi Pesky.

>I don't think that cabals are very religious. They seem more like
>groups of people who have the same political goals. Ragers hate
>magic, and that might be misconstrued as religious, but...I think it
>has been established that mages gather magic from their surroundings.
>Mages don't have to pray to get their magic. The rager hatred is
>more akin to a racial hatred.

Aside from the fact that Battle existed back when both mages and clerics cast spells, and thus had trouble discerning between the two classes sometimes: The Only good reason I've ever heard for Battlerager hatred of magic was entirely religion based. The reasoning goes that the original mages stole their powers from the gods. Thus, magic is an affront to the gods, and Battle is there to punish the betrayers(mages), and potentially reclaim that power for the gods. They believe also that the power of the gods is a corrupting influence on all who use it directly, and therefore it is only safe and right in the hands of a priest, as the priest has no power without the god's direct influence. If that's not religious, I'm afraid you (josiah) is going by an entirely different definition of religion, and I'd like an explanation of what you mean by that term.

>There are no organized religons on CF. I am a big fan of cathedrals,
>with fervant followers. I think it is wrong to expect players to
>come up with this stuff on their own. Nobody wants more cabals. We
>do need some help coming up with some infrastructure to support
>religons.

Who says we need an infrastructure? Who says some religions on CF don't already have one?

>We do not want a single player character responsible for starting a
>religon... No matter how good their roleplay, that is WAAAaaayy too
>much to give to any body.

So we don't want another Ishmael? Damn.

> ... followers of organized religon. HEey! They're told how to act,
>and they know who to goto for help, and they can give tithes (oooh,
>that's an easy way to measure devotion)..

Tithes are not a reliable way to measure anything.

>People are fighting for no reason. Add religon in, and we've
>got more, fabulous, ROleplay!

I don't think greed or practice is enough of a reason to PK, but what about the necromancers who've killed in search of 'spare parts' as one put it? Or a storm paladin who's sworn to kill all duergar? Religion isn't a necessary excuse for killing.

>In all honesty, players wandering around all on their lonesome
>is not very religious or realistic.

It's not? I suppose generations of Celts and Native American Shaman should all step out of existence now. Oh, and the Aborigines too.

>Historically, religon is used for political power.

Catholicism and other Judeo-Christian groups. Anyone else?

>The masses want to be led! =)

No, no we don't. (sorry, Kalmah and all you Empire people, we don't want an iron fist controlling our lives)

I completely disagree with your idea that religions must be violent.

--Quislet,
Tired of being agreeable, and just being blunt.

>I'm not a big fan of how religon is carried out on CF. It
>seems to me that there is no organization at all. Individuals
>roam around and pray at hidden shrines, and once in a great
>while, one of them is good enough to get a tattoo. There are
>no rules for religion, nothing to suggest conduct except for
>some (often) hastily written helpfiles.

That's because the imms don't want to deal with a horde of followers spouting the helpfile back at them. A religion should be a personal thing, that each character interprets differently. Most immortals will give you guidance once you have a spin on it particular to your character.


> As far as learning to
>act how your god wants you to (if he / she doesn't have a good
>helpfile), you're supposed to depend on immteraction to do
>that.. Or use your best judgement.
>

Or speak with other people, perhaps priests of the gods, or read about them in the Lycaeum. Often there is something in the shrine that gives you an idea.

>Even worse off, the game doesn't do a good job of describing
>religion. Everyone is told to pick a sphere, but you can pick
>a sphere and forget it, and the majority of people do. A
>sphere is not a religion.

Correct. A sphere is more akin to a star-sign. In Thera, the stars really do influence your life, perhaps guiding you towards a particular religion without you knowing it. You can, in fact, get tattooed by immortals when you are not under their sphere. I had a sphere balance guy tattooed by Eryndorial who was spheres knowledge, beauty, and something else that I can't remember now.

. In-fact, the best definition I can
>get for religion right now (on CF) is: A sphere that has a god
>with a tattoo.. So all those spheres that cannot yield a
>tattoo aren't religions?

A tattoo represents a religion, not a sphere, so you are unlikely to get one without being religious. If you pray to a god of your own creation, it probably is possible (not likely) to get a tattoo if you are good and lucky enough. However, you'd have to inspire some imm to actually play the part of your made-up god for you.

> They just seem like templates for
>combat to me. Sphere fire (I use fire to kill) etc.
>

I played a sphere vivimancy paladin who was also influenced by fire. He thought of the paladin code in terms of different aspects of fire etc. He preached parables based on fire, (since everyone gets tired of hearing the usual paladin stuff). The vivimancy influence on his life did nothing more than give him his goal -- to restore the lands to a cleansed state, which involved defeating the scions who had corrupted it, and sanctifying Kidiana etc.


>There are no religious wars. No gods go in strict opposition
>to other gods.

Now here you are just plain wrong. God's order their followers to kill other god's priests and priestesses. My assassin was ordered to kill someone by a god purely for religious reasons (and I had to work out what those were).

> No one roleplays religious fanaticism. There
>are no churches.

Well, my assassin recruited people to carry out the work of the particular god who gave him a religious purpose.

> There are temples, but all of them seem to
>be vast generalizations of religion. There are shrines, but
>they are often one-room, never any mobs (that I've seen),

Most shrines have at least one mob if not more.


>never anything to read and immerse yourself in.
>
>

Most have a lot to look at, but sometimes it isn't obvious.

>
>I suggest that we have some more religon in this game. I
>would like to see an invisible aura surrounding people who
>submit themselves to a religion. A spell or supplication
>would allow you to see what aura people have.
>

Or a tattoo? A tattoo doesn't necessarily have powers that the tattooed person knows how to use. Sometimes it is just a mark, and they learn to draw on the god's powers later.

>I suggest that we have some religions, (not) one for every
>god, certain religions can encompass several gods.

There is no reason you cannot play a character like this. My paladin worshipped Savraeth first and Shokai a close second, because his own take on the religion on Savraeth was very much influenced by Shokai's religion.


> These
>religions would need a code of conduct, and a place of
>worship, and a mortal hierarchy. They could mesh with cabals
>fine. It would just be another agenda for players to have.
>

Many religions already do have this, or have had in the past. Ilraeth has/had a high priestess, as did Mynawk (in a sense), and Shokai, and the Scarabs, and those of the Laurel (Eryndorial).

>For these religons, I propose we also have a tally system. If
>you kill someone of the other religon, you are rewarded. If
>you give a tithe to the church, you are rewarded.

As I said earlier, there already are religious wars. When I killed a high priestess, I got rewarded for it. And I wasn't even a tattooed follower. A tattoo often has several powers and I suspect in many cases these are revealed only to those who do actually go out and smite the enemies of their god.

I mean honestly, a single assassin being asked to assassinate someone else... OOOh, that's a huge "war". First of all, your god only told you to kill this person. That's not how religon works. Religon works when your god tells the head of the religon that you follow, that (so and so) is a blasphemor, and should be killed.

If several people listened, and decided to kill because of the edicts of god, then that would be religious. Religon is great, because it allows those with personal avenues to god to make decisions, even if those decisions aren't the intention of the god.

That's called faith.. Faith is believing what your religous leader tells you. Are they favored by god? Will you be rewarded for following them? Are they following the constitution (so to speak) of the religon? Those sorts of questions are what faith is all about.


I believe in god, but I'm not religious.

>I mean honestly, a single assassin being asked to assassinate
>someone else... OOOh, that's a huge "war". First of all, your
>god only told you to kill this person. That's not how religon
>works. Religon works when your god tells the head of the
>religon that you follow, that (so and so) is a blasphemor, and
>should be killed.
>

I PLAYED A SINGLE ASSASSIN. Does that mean I was the only person asked to do this kind of thing? No. Stop making assumptions based on no experience.

In fact, the reason I was asked to kill the Priestess (amongst a number of other people) was completely down to them being anaethma (sp?) to the religion of the God I was serving.

So, in fact, you have just stated this is religion.

>If several people listened, and decided to kill because of the
>edicts of god, then that would be religious.

OK. So which bit of the people who were working for me to do this didn't you understand? That is (A) several people, and (B) killing because of the edicts of that god.

Again, you have just stated that this is religion.

> Religon is
>great, because it allows those with personal avenues to god to
>make decisions, even if those decisions aren't the intention
>of the god.
>

No one is disputing this, though some religions will not give you that flexibility.

>That's called faith.. Faith is believing what your religous
>leader tells you. Are they favored by god? Will you be
>rewarded for following them? Are they following the
>constitution (so to speak) of the religon? Those sorts of
>questions are what faith is all about.
>
>
>I believe in god, but I'm not religious.

This is my last post on this topic. I am kicking myself already for wasting time explaining stuff to someone who is arguing from a position of ignorance, who isn't actually taking in what I am trying to say (which incidentally is almost completely, if not completely, corroborated by one of the immortals).