Well I just wanted to voice my opinion and such about these because, well hell I am sick of it.

First off I want to say that the imms do a great job but I still have a serious gripe.

Im currently playing a shifter because I wanted to give on a go again and see what the new spells are like and the lack of spamming and I have gotten pretty high in the ranks. Yet I think this is really sad, I chose offense as my major forms and am really REALLY dissappointed with them now im sorry to say.

I mean I see offense forms as being able to hit hard or alot compared to other shifters and that is why they study offensive beasts. Yet my first tier form NEVER did CAPs damage, which apart from finding it impossible to find a group really wasnt that bad. Then I get my second form and yes, it is a step up but not all that much, I had it until low 30s. But what is worse is when I get my third tier offense form. No offense guys but it sucks. I got the ocelot, which I heard was supposed to be great, I wasnt able to tank one mob to give me any decent ranking with a group and the MOST i ever hit was 4 times a round and the highest I hit was for dismembers with the VERY rare massacre. This really sucked, because I had it until past rank 45. I mean sure, its not supposed to tank because its offense, but I mean hitting the same as a camelot geared warrior at the same rank is just stupid. But I figure, hell these forms have been pretty sucky as far as I thought offense would be, but I bet the last tier form will be great.........I really think it sucks. I got the tiger, it hits worse then the golden jaguar (which I had, and although it wasnt the greatest it had a bite that made them bleed sometimes and -str) compared to my tiger, which hits softer, tanks about the same and has the almight POUNCE which only goes off a third of the time. I mean I dont want to bitch and all but for gollies sake. Its an offense form that is worse the util forms in fighting.

*sigh* alright thats the end of my rant, but can I ask if any imms are looking in to evening up the forms or something? I mean there was a suggestion on dios which I kinda liked, and that was that you let people pick what forms they learnt and also fixed them so like all the offense forms were on equal par in hitting and such, as were the water and so on and so forth. I mean that way, if all the last forms of a path are all equal then there will be the same diversity as it being random, right?

Well just a suggestion.....but the tiger really is making me want to delete.........thanks anyway, and perhaps shifters just arent my thing. Oh and I forgot to say, yes I got all my forms to confident so it wasnt my skill level in them lacking........

>I mean I see offense forms as being able to hit hard or alot
>compared to other shifters and that is why they study
>offensive beasts.

They do hit alot compared to other shifters.

>I mean sure, its not supposed to tank
>because its offense, but I mean hitting the same as a camelot
>geared warrior at the same rank is just stupid.

This sounds like an exaggeration. Before you get your fourth form you need to think of yourself as a weak-ass axe warrior with no spec skills: you can't tank, you hit but not always very hard, and you can't do anything really interesting in combat.

In general pre-4th form shifters are inferior to well-geared, well-practiced warriors of the same rank who've specialized in weapons that are at least moderately offensive from a non-tank position (e.g. axe, mace, sword). But unlike the non-offensive warriors they're not good for anything but damage. So yes, it will be harder to rank your shifter until you get a 4th form. After that, depending on which form you get, you may find you have an *easier* time ranking than most warriors. Tiger is probably the worst 4th form to have as far as ranking goes since it has the lowest damage output. It makes up for this low damage output with improved tanking and pounce, neither of which help you rank (but are useful in other ways).

As for how often pounce goes off...that may improve as you become more experienced with the form. I've never played a tiger before so I can't say for sure. Personally I'd put tiger in the middle of the pack as far as desirability of final offense forms. My list would be lion, ram, alligator, tiger, jaguar, panther. Maybe promote aligator some depending on whether I want to go underwater. Maybe promote tiger if I thought I was going to mostly fight classes without word of recall.

>Well I just wanted to voice my opinion and such about these
>because, well hell I am sick of it.
>
>First off I want to say that the imms do a great job but I
>still have a serious gripe.

Take out "serious" and we can start.

>Im currently playing a shifter because I wanted to give on a
>go again and see what the new spells are like and the lack of
>spamming and I have gotten pretty high in the ranks. Yet I
>think this is really sad, I chose offense as my major forms
>and am really REALLY dissappointed with them now im sorry to
>say.

This made me chuckle.

>I mean I see offense forms as being able to hit hard or alot
>compared to other shifters and that is why they study
>offensive beasts. Yet my first tier form NEVER did CAPs
>damage, which apart from finding it impossible to find a group
>really wasnt that bad.

Wow...really...because doing cap damage at level 19 with a mage wouldn't be overpowered at all...

>Then I get my second form and yes, it
>is a step up but not all that much, I had it until low 30s.

Oddly enough...that to is by design...

>But what is worse is when I get my third tier offense form. No
>offense guys but it sucks. I got the ocelot, which I heard was
>supposed to be great,

We'll take it point by point...

>I wasnt able to tank one mob to give me any decent ranking with a group

Oh my god...an OFFENSE form couldn't tank, wonder why that is...oh yeah...because DEFENSE forms can tank.

>and the MOST i ever hit was 4 times a round and the highest I hit
>was for dismembers with the VERY rare massacre.

Which I can say is probably more than any other non-offense form of the same tier.

>This really sucked, because I had it until past rank 45. I mean
>sure, its not supposed to tank because its offense, but I mean
>hitting the same as a camelot geared warrior at the same rank is
>just stupid.

Yes...it almost makes sense to compare a shapeshifting mage to a warrior. Oh wait...no it doesn't.

>But I figure, hell these forms have been pretty sucky as far as I
>thought offense would be, but I bet the last tier form will be
>great.........I really think it sucks. I got the tiger, it
>hits worse then the golden jaguar (which I had, and although
>it wasnt the greatest it had a bite that made them bleed
>sometimes and -str) compared to my tiger, which hits softer,
>tanks about the same and has the almight POUNCE which only
>goes off a third of the time.

I honestly don't believe I'm hearing someone bitch about the tiger. It actually can tank unlike many of the offense forms, and yes...pounce is mighty. I'm pretty sure alot of people would agree that tiger is a good offense form (Couple it with an air form and it can actually be sickening).

>I mean I dont want to bitch and all but for gollies sake. Its an
>offense form that is worse the util forms in fighting.

Define fighting...offense? defense? You seem to want the best of all worlds...and an offense major is not that.

>*sigh* alright thats the end of my rant, but can I ask if any
>imms are looking in to evening up the forms or something?

Sure...I keep track of forms all the time, and right now they are pretty much where we want them.

>I mean there was a suggestion on dios which I kinda liked, and
>that was that you let people pick what forms they learnt and
>also fixed them so like all the offense forms were on equal
>par in hitting and such, as were the water and so on and so
>forth. I mean that way, if all the last forms of a path are
>all equal then there will be the same diversity as it being
>random, right?

It's not something the imms are looking at doing. Enough classes get to pick and choose things, this one we're keeping random.

>Well just a suggestion.....but the tiger really is making me
>want to delete.........thanks anyway, and perhaps shifters
>just arent my thing. Oh and I forgot to say, yes I got all my
>forms to confident so it wasnt my skill level in them
>lacking........

Yes...perhaps shifters aren't your thing.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Ok ok, so maybe I was jumping the gun. But it was just after I had died as the tiger in a pk which I thought I should have won, and we all know how pissed people can get after they get pk'd needlessly.

Im not trying to say anything bad, I mean I was mainly just looking for a place to rant.....

But........the bit about a utility third tier beating offense ones pants down is true, take the gazelle, it hits for demos and mangles mainly and tanks really well as well. I would rather take this over the ocelot any day (just for being able to hit harder), I mean ive also had the copperhead and that was mad only because of its regen, hitting once a round as an offense form did kind of make me contemplate wanting it awhile however.

I mean I know shifters are mages and hitting poorly until you really get your third form, even then not too well, is probably understandable, but it really kind of bites when your trying to find a group and they find out you stink, I mean i heard all sorts of excuses for leaving groups straight after we start ranking, but then again if this game was all easy then it wouldnt be fun.

I mean like the when I had the jaguar, I will probably grow into enjoying the tiger, but its just when I compare it to say the lion that hits more and harder or the ram which when it hits, it hits alot harder, I mean those are what I was hoping for and all

Your saying that defence forms tank well?... a horrible example is the bobcat... Having attempted to fight all sorts of things that you can rank on at that rank, its horrible!...And that is an understatement... Some of the third tier forms could use a beef up... As it seems they are way out of balance... comparing them to other third tier forms I have had over the years...
I never expected this form to do anything but dodge, and it does not, but when it does that poorly as well... what are you left with?...

Now I know from experience that some other forms are alot better, but some resemblance of balance would be nice...

Generally some forms need to be looked over..

Just my thoughts on the matter...
PS! still loving the game, even though I feel I get the short end some times...
And thanks for a great game..
LH

If you're working with bobcat (or hare, for that matter) you have to pick mobs to fight differently than you would with other characters.

The optimal thing to tank for XP isn't the same for a level 40 sword warrior as it is for a level 40 shaman. Something like a level 40 assassin or bobcat might make a third or fourth choice seem smart....

Must have missed something with the bobcat then. As I feel I have attempted alot of different things..

Though my view on the matter is still fairly unchanged... with that the shifters are in need of some sort of improvement..

My suggestion would perhaps be that you recive the 4th tier form and gain its strengths as you go. Lets say you get an angry croc, and you gain its resist first, then after a rank or two you gain another of its specialities.. Would perhaps make the shifters feel a bite more usefull.

I know this probably would be a real pain to prog... But it just might make it worth it... As you dont this day see many shifters landing to many kills.. Or perhaps my playing times are screwed...

*tip*
LH

I think shifters are fine as they are. You seem to want them to have all of the strengths of a warrior and none of the weaknesses. Alternately, you may not realize what some of the best strengths are.

I do not wish the shifters to have all the pros of a warrior. but I want them to be able to stand up to a decent warrior when they themselves have a/b/s....
And that they can be of use in a group when learning.. Like most classes are.. And as a shifter you can at some times feel pretty useless.. even at high ranks... I just dont feel it adds up..

And I have attempted many things with the forms I have been given over the years I have played. Some work better than others.
And the bobcat was just my example of a form that I never got to use well...
Just the eye of the beholder...
LH

When I had lynx form (third tier offense), I was easily able to beat hero assassins with it (without protections).

However, I could not beat a level 30 ish polearm (I think -- some kind of warrior that wasn't spear/staff) spec with it as he could hit me quite easily.

I concluded from that that shifters were definitely more suited to some kinds of fights than others.

nt

Having had the Tiger twice, Nwayreth and Kraenesk
also i've had lemur, orang, porc, lion, ram, cobra, squid, shark,golden eagle and diamondback, i'll have to say all the forms are great, and tiger is my favorite, that's right, it's the best offensive form, it isnt the most offensive but it has utility, you can regear with it solo because it can dodge, you can pk with it good on non worders, pounce is wicked, it is great pking specially if you have abs, unless ragers have a certain tattoo, you should be able to beat them one on one with abs. I found i coudl even tank some when ranking with the tiger. Lion was less resistant to blows, dodged less, and was harder to pursue with, ram just was a damage sponge, big time, easier to parry than even the tiger. the best form in each class as i would rate them would be Lemur for defensive(i loved lemur)
Tiger for offensive, golden eagle for air obviously, you never really had anything to fear in the air, and shark is killa on the water. the only third tier form i complained about is copperhead, but at hero i loved being able to regen so it paid off in the end. the best third tier forms i had over all were definatly both util, ostrich and spider. spider totally kicks ass, even though it was nerfed from when i had it, it still kicks ass totally. If you're complaining about shifters somethign is wrong with you, they are perfect, and so are the forms.