Well what can I say? You did well and I am glad for the time we spent together. Hope you had as much fun as me and see you in the fields.

Fatty P.

Well, I for one thoroughly(sp?) enjoyed all my interactions with bessian, and I think you had a real quality character. I also thought it was kind of funny to see a maran with the hummingbird, but you pulled it off well. Anyways, thanks for all the great times and I am sure I'll see you in the future, I suppose I am around for the long haul, especially with going back to college and all. Be cool man, you deserve it.


Braiden

P.S. Braiden auctions "One very eligible storm giant paladin of love named bessian, bidding starts at one copper." Woo hoo!

Well, I was sad to see you go. I hoped it wouldn't turn this way. I always enjoyed our talks and all. I was delighted to see you get the mark of the hummingbird, I always new you would get it. I always questioned myself about a maran follower of Bria, the same way I question a maran follower of Selric You did great. I think I'll make a bria maran follower sometime. Hopefully we will be able to interact together in the game more. Just don't go scion or make a evil char! I always stay as lightwalkers for some reason. Be well.

Serniae Kordeav-Hall, the Heart of the Hummingbird, Servant of the Dawn, Daughter of Bria.
*May the wind of faith guide you and keep you always!*

How could you have forgotten me? The one and only scaled walrus
who helped you with the first Defiance? (Shrug)
Anyway was fun, but towards the end we didn't manage to group up for most of the stuff. Well you are/were great.
See you in the field.

I am glad you enjoyed yourself and happy to hear I could help in the role as your god. I enjoyed watching you grow and learn. I was never really mad with you as much as disapointed with you, and thought you could do better, but you seemed to learn from it.
I enjoyed watching and interacting with you, good luck and remember to have fun.

Glad you enjoyed it, makes me think I might be doing something right. For someone trying to follow the dogma of both Bria and Shokai, I thought you did a pretty good job balancing the two. As for the wait, yeah...well, I'll just point you to my normal disclaimer. However my schedule is starting to clear up a lot more so, I doubt that people who have been waiting for hell and ever will have quite so long to wait.

well played, and hope you have as much (or more) fun with the next one.

Bessian has to date been the character I had the most fun with. He started at a time when the balance in the game was very much in the Scion favor, and it was a challenge for a while to play him. Whether or not this came across in his character, Bessian was a meld between the path of Bria and the path of the Maran, which I believe was not terribly contradictory although I did get the few 'How can love and destruction go together' tells. Bessian died with 4 con and two deaths away from the actual death. I contemplated dying in battle as according to how a Maran would, but I decided that he was still a paladin of Bria, and preferred for her to welcome him into the long sleep.


Bria

Thank you for empowering me. You and Shokai are my two favourite immortals. It was a challenge to play a knight of love and war, there was a fair amount of self reflection during my playing of the knight. There were a few times when you seemed displeased, though they were never done out of flippancy. I hope your next paladin will throw him/herself into the role too and give you some fun.

Shokai

Thank you for taking me into the Maran. It is a splendid cabal, and I have enjoyed every minute of being a part of it. It always felt like a tremendous privilege, and a noble cause. I am heartened that you foresaw the need to balance war and destruction with reflection, and reminding the Maran of their path. I liked the way you dealt with the odd flaring of tempers due to the Nexus, and the humble, comradish way you treat the members of the Brigade. I shudder at how long I will need to wait for my next Maran to get in. *mutter*

Scarabaeus

Appreciate the minor little interaction we had. Would have liked for there to be more, although its doubtful I would have turned 'Dark'.


-Scion-

Waskes and Cuvatar - Enjoyed our odd talks, brief as they were. Everyone else, the fighting was good, the victories sweet, the defeats inspiring. I wished I had more interaction with most of you, although it wasn't meant to be. I've always preferred civil interaction to mindless swearing and name calling, so it was difficult to engage in any of you in even the simplest of conversations.

-Scarab-

Nobody really to mention except Drucyrus. What can I say? A tough shaman, but your notes on Dioxide take away most of the admiration that I would have had for you, but for the way you post your logs. It's still a game, no need to rub the faces of your foes into the dirt even if you're better.

-Nexus-

It's a tough cabal to play. I was surprised when I would receive more than a few tells and accusations from a number of you, demanding to know why I was attacking you, while letting the Scion scepter go untouched. For one, the battle against evil isn't so simple as that, and for two, assaulting the fortress is an act of violence as is murdering or attempting to murder fellow fortress members, which bessian wouldn't allow to go unpunished. Nobody really noteworthy to mention.

-Sylvan-

The only one I remember was Raukyr, he was at the Maran herbing away while a bunch of young Scions threw themselves at the guard,w hile I was granting sanctuary and healing away. The rest, zero interaction.

-Entropy-

Dariana - You don't need any compliments, got enough as it is.
Nazgauga - Wish we could have fought often. I saw you about once, and after that, no more.

-Battle-

Intronan and Tarosh were the only people I ever fought, with the exception of Kraern once. Armand, I have never understood how a berserker giant could become the high priest of Ilraeth, who's supposed to be the patron goddess of warlocks. Not to mention that magic bolt coming out of the third eye, it's all too contradictory. If that's possible, I don't see why a Scarab paladin or a Shokai evil anti-paladin in Scion wouldn't work either. Bessian was very displeased with you because you betrayed your comrades, and felt your explanations were generally fairly shallow. No hard feelings of course, we had a few good raids.

-Tribunal-

Zieth - We never travelled together, but you always gave me the odd heals and support in town when I needed it. It was always good to have you around, and Galadon seemed a lot safer when you were about. Good Tribunal.

-Herald-

No interaction.

-Dawn-

Braiden - You're a nice guy and you were a good leader. I will try to spot you in future characters.
Satinka - You I will always be able to spot a mile away. Before I guessed who you were, you annoyed me a little for not returning to defend on raids, but as time wore on, I warmed to you. Strangely though, it seemed as time wore on, you cooled towards me.
Ambrose - I never saw any of the bad things you were accused of saying or doing while I was about.
Serniae - Sweet, Silly, Serniae.

-Warlock-

Andulvar - You're good. Hope you do the Warlocks proud.
Annalena - I was impressed with you, but you always seemed cold and uninterested in talking. Only time you ever responded was when you wanted me to help you with something. Probably busy?
Thevequn - A good person to fight alongside.
Allashanstra - Thanks for helping me hero. You were always bubbly and nice to have around.
Mithuna - Another tough conjurer.
Lewellyn - How could I forget you?
Karithia - What happened to you after that fun day?

-Maran-

Pohanad, Johan, Yetharien, Kalin, Varick, Arriell, Gynax, was fun to be with you. Johan and Yetharien, we had some good fights together. We should have spent more time together and honed our group fighting, I think we were all too used to leading and fighting individually that things got a bit aschewed. Holy Brigade's the best in the land!

-Others Mentioned-

Those who helped me with defiance - A BIG THANK YOU. Since I died so many times, and so many died with me helping me get it, I can't list you all. I always feel bad when people die there.

Dwimmerling - A good friend. We had some good conversations. Hope you find your way.

Rigble - 'Okay, you stay on the road and hide. I shalt come to thee when thou hath.... *snip snip* ... Tis best if we did not travel, small friend..'

Speaking of defiance, I just remember the one time I did hang around with ya in Kuo Toa. At the prodding of my sister we went down there to get that damn sword for ya. (IC, Arvidor hated taking on the King down there. Damn lightning bolts and manta rays don't mix).

You seemed to be a well rounded character but too bad I was not around for when you were a hero and such

Thanks, same to you. We did fight alot and the balance was pretty even. You were the only of the 4 or 5 paladins around level 30 that would keep me on my toes. At hero paladins would almost always means death in hords. We talked a bit, but at the end I feelt you didn't wish to talk that much since I didn't recive answers to my requests. Anyhow, sadly the Lurker never really got hold of you.

Waskes aka. Søren

From my point of view this character was one of those classical knight that you read about in books from the middle age(with the accent and all:-)). I realy liked you, and it seemed like you knew your stuff. You was one of those that I realy felt safe when traveling or ranking with. Good job! Hope we will interact in one of our future characters.
Be well!

Hmm..odd seeing you go. My playing time was soon to increase and I new to be looking for you about. Seems there were a bunch of touch and go fights earlier as you moved up that I did well but later it seemed as if you just had my number. Regardless of my bitches about holy light I must say well roleplayed from my perspective, and a good foe. See ya in the fields.

P.S. Damned that Holy Light.

To be honest, the idea of having a Battle Rager follower was a concern to me too. I argued with several other immortals about a patron immortal tatt'ing enemy cabal members, but in Armands case there were several things that made me accept him.
1: The village is NOT considered an enemy cabal of the Warlocks (the reverse is not true of course)
2: Armand was very active in both desire and RP for the religion (lacking slightly in a few areas but over all, he was doing very good as a supplicant.
And 3: Although magic IS a form of knowledge, its not the focus of the religion itself (Savraeth is still Itching to set him on fire of course
As to the title: His active role in being a Seeker, preaching and doing the extra little things, made him a good pick for the high-priest of water title, and depending on a several things that I wont get into here, he could just as quickly lose it too.

I guess it comes down to this…. Armand is a good follower with several religious restrictions that make it dangerous for him to be both a Seeker and a Rager, restrictions that could end up costing him both positions if he isn't very VERY careful.
Is he a good Rager? That's really not for me to judge.

Something about this post just seems wrong.



I cant quite put my finger on it, maybe some of you can help.

Annalena?



Much Love


Acidic Parv

I would like to address some of the points you raised here.


1. 'The village is not the enemy of the warlocks'

By that statement, you view that the warlocks don't necessarily want to see the villagers dead. But after all the corpses, skins, ponchos and library research of history, surely the warlocks themselves know that the villagers see them as an enemy. The testimony of dead bodies and skin everywhere should be sufficient. 'I am not your enemy' may be true, but 'You are trying to kill all my followers' should certainly be a higher hurdle to jump over.

2. Armand was very good as an RP applicant

From most of my conversations, I can certainly testify that the words 'water' certainly are bound to enter it. I'm surprised why Thror would not see Armand's worship of you as something to be concerned about. There are wars in the heavens, and certainly, some gods favor others, and some just want to kill others, as can be seen in the past heavenly war. I can see Thror going 'Aye Lad, yer be a courageous one and a wily foe o the war, dere' to one of his favourite battle ragers, but I certainly do not see him toasting a mug of ale to Ilraeth, former essence of a Master Immortal, and current patron of a magical wizard cabal. If there is at least a certain level of rivalry, if not hatred in the heavenlies, why wasn't this translated onto earth?

3. Magic is not knowledge. Okay.

The main difficulty I have is based on a number of assumptions, really.

1. That Gods and Goddesses have characters and personalities. There are stiff gods, generally angry gods, whispering gods, chaotic gods, unpleasant gods, and nice gods. (see Shokai). These personalities and characteristics translate into emotions, and how they view certain mortals. For example, hypothetically, Balgrimnr might favor a knight of zealous honor, over say, a thief with mynawk's. So gods and goddesses have personal favourites, and these translate into tattoos. Out of those who are tattooed, one is chosen to be a high priest or priestess, the mortal representative who bests represents that god or goddess's goals, personality, intersts, characteristics, and who bests draws others to the faith.

2. Coming back to the personalities, and different likings. Bria, for example, being the patron of the Tribunal, would likely exhibit lawful tendencies, and the same for Shokai, Scarabaeus, Thror, etc, all of whom act, speak, behave and prefer different ways. Hence, patrons of certain cabals usually favor those who are part of those cabals, ONE, and also probably agree with the philosophy of that cabal, TWO.

3. I could probably understand if through tremendous roleplay, Armand clinched a tattoo. But a high priest? As a ilraeth, you would be quite aware that Armand while exhibiting some extraordinary characteristics as a rager who worships you, will also be trying to kill the very members to a cabal whom you are the patron for. By giving to Armand, the natural enemy of your patron worshippers/subjects/followers the status of high priest, are you not sending waves (no pun intended) of contradiction down the very length of your followers?

4. If I follow closely too, Ilraeth and her sister were formed from the essences of a previous Master Immortal. Tied closely to magic, wizardry, sorcery, wouldn't this too be cause for a particular kind of personality, which while not necessarily wanting the blood and death of every villager, be at least repulsed by it?


If, broken down in simple form, WARLOCK = LIGHT + MAGIC
then patron of WARLOCK = IMMORTAL PRESENCE OF LIGHT + MAGIC
High Priest of patron = HIGH PRIEST OF IMMORTAL OF LIGHT + MAGIC


WHY I AM GOING INTO THIS

What I'm really trying to get at is the seeming notion that Gods and Goddess are above good, evil and neutral. Carrionfields is a world where the light have gold auras, and the evil have red auras. These auras were given by the gods and goddesses to their faithful to identify the spirit of the mortals. Hence, spirits can be good and evil.

Aren't gods and goddessses essentially 'spirit'? The meaning of the word escapes me here, but I know of the deep belief that and overriding philosophy that the gods and goddesses are beyond good and evil. It's one of the things I don't agree with, because if mortals are a translation, mirror of the divine, and there is good and evil on earth, then there will be good and evil in the heavenlies. Take the angels, archons versus the demons and devils, for example. Take the war between heaven and hell, for example.

Is there even a meaning to saying a phrase 'Shokai is a God of Light, and Scarabaeus a God of Darkness', if there are no differentiations?

While I have to agree on the point that Ragers are ennemies of the Warlocks, religion has very few points related to cabals. Of course, Imms are almost all parts of a cabal, but I will say what many imms told me when I was asking.

Religion and Cabal are two different things. You can be a follower of a religion without being in the cabal..As long as it's part of your role. You *can* be a mage who follow Thror, if it fits your role and you RP it. Sure, Ilraeth is a godness of warlocks, but she also have her religion which about anyone can be part of...It can be tricky sometimes to be in a situation like that, but if you really Roleplay it, there shouldn't be any problems.

To some limits, a rager could have the sphere magic. But it might means he chose it as a focus to destroy it. It's all a matter of point of view.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.

>Religion and Cabal are two different
>things. You can be a
>follower of a religion without
>being in the cabal..As long
>as it's part of your
>role. You *can* be a
>mage who follow Thror, if
>it fits your role and
>you RP it. Sure, Ilraeth
>is a godness of warlocks,
>but she also have her
>religion which about anyone can
>be part of...

It's a confusing situation that has come up in CFs past. While Nepenthe was a god of the Masters cabal, he did have marked Battleragers.

I'm not sure which of the twin goddesses specifically covers the sphere of Magic. I *think* only one of them does, and I think it's Savraeth. It certainly would be rather odd to see a Battlerager a High Priest of a god who even though covers multiple spheres also covers magic.

Also, if I remember the religions correctly, Ilraeth/Savraeth religions are quite involved with a number of different facets. It seems to me that Armand found a facet of Ilraeth's religion that suited him. I think it's pretty cool.

And you're right in what you've said above. I've had it explained to me in a similar fashion before.


>To some limits, a rager could
>have the sphere magic. But
>it might means he chose
>it as a focus to
>destroy it. It's all a
>matter of point of view.

Ummm this would be a stretch. Sphere destruction would be more appropriate.

In a perfect world, I'm not even sure we would have immortal patrons of cabals with religions that weren't in absolute sync with their cabals. However, as anyone who's been flagged (along with 60 other people) by a rogue Arbiter who thinks he's being original, then unflagged by Bria (who has a religion that in my opinion could read Chaotic Good at least as easily as Lawful Good) can tell you, it's generally good for the well-being and smooth running of CF that they wear two hats rather than be uncaballed.

I look at it something like this: As an immortal, your religion says something about the things that are important to you (IC) and the way you think the world should be. Your cabal may point to one way of going about that goal, but it's not necessarily the only way. If Ilraeth thinks Knowledge is Good (forgive the gross religion oversimplification), since Warlocks like knowledge (well, in theory), watching over them and helping them out may be one way to promote it. Maybe whatever Armand is doing is another way. I think it makes for a somewhat more interesting game that not all immortals will come down and say "this is the way."

To dip into the dangerous mire of real-world religious examples, I don't think you'd have to look very hard in history to find incidents where one faction of a religion went to war with another, possibly very similar, faction of the same religion. (Theirs is the right one and the other one is wrong, of course. :p) You could play it out very similarly in the game. Mage followers of Ilraeth could possibly see an Armand as a radical heretical crack-monkey to be burned (frozen?) at the stake, and vice-versa.

>I would like to address some
>of the points you raised
>here.
>
>
>1. 'The village is not the
>enemy of the warlocks'
>
>By that statement, you view that
>the warlocks don't necessarily want
>to see the villagers dead.
>But after all the corpses,
>skins, ponchos and library research
>of history, surely the warlocks
>themselves know that the villagers
>see them as an enemy.
>The testimony of dead bodies
>and skin everywhere should be
>sufficient. 'I am not your
>enemy' may be true, but
>'You are trying to kill
>all my followers' should certainly
>be a higher hurdle to
>jump over.

While I can see your point, you would have to take
into account that warlocks don't follow Ilraeth.
They are warlocks. This isn't the cult, not everyone
in the cabal is a follower of a certain religion.
It has little to do with me killing 'followers'
of Ilraeth, and more to do with me killing mages.


>
>2. Armand was very good as
>an RP applicant
>
>From most of my conversations, I
>can certainly testify that the
>words 'water' certainly are bound
>to enter it. I'm

*snicker*

>surprised why Thror would not
>see Armand's worship of you
>as something to be concerned
>about. There are wars in
>the heavens, and certainly, some
>gods favor others, and some
>just want to kill others,
>as can be seen in
>the past heavenly war. I
>can see Thror going 'Aye
>Lad, yer be a courageous
>one and a wily foe
>o the war, dere' to
>one of his favourite battle
>ragers, but I certainly do
>not see him toasting a
>mug of ale to Ilraeth,
>former essence of a Master
>Immortal, and current patron of
>a magical wizard cabal. If
>there is at least a
>certain level of rivalry, if
>not hatred in the heavenlies,
>why wasn't this translated onto
>earth?

The gods are the gods. While I agree
there is a fair amount of tension (or at
least there should be) in asguaard, a mortal
would not get 'in trouble' for following
the teachings of another god. Especially
when the way it is _roleplayed_ fits perfectly
into the sphere of being a battlerager, and
totally by coincidence, the 'purity' of the water
that Armand talks about so much can kind of be seen
by the purity of Thror's sphere.


>3. Magic is not knowledge. Okay.
>
>
>The main difficulty I have is
>based on a number of
>assumptions, really.
>
>1. That Gods and Goddesses have
>characters and personalities. There are
>stiff gods, generally angry gods,
>whispering gods, chaotic gods, unpleasant
>gods, and nice gods. (see
>Shokai). These personalities and characteristics
>translate into emotions, and how
>they view certain mortals. For
>example, hypothetically, Balgrimnr might favor
>a knight of zealous honor,
>over say, a thief with
>mynawk's. So gods and goddesses
>have personal favourites, and these
>translate into tattoos. Out of
>those who are tattooed, one
>is chosen to be a
>high priest or priestess, the
>mortal representative who bests represents
>that god or goddess's goals,
>personality, intersts, characteristics, and who
>bests draws others to the
>faith.

Armand is very active in preaching to others of
the ways of water. I would think that one who
goes out and not only preaches the word or path
of a god, but actually sheds blood and lives and
develops stratagies against others who do NOT follow
the god would be a very very good person to be
one to draw others to a faith, or at least make them
AWARE of the faith.


>2. Coming back to the personalities,
>and different likings. Bria, for
>example, being the patron of
>the Tribunal, would likely exhibit
>lawful tendencies, and the same
>for Shokai, Scarabaeus, Thror, etc,
>all of whom act, speak,
>behave and prefer different ways.
>Hence, patrons of certain cabals
>usually favor those who are
>part of those cabals, ONE,
>and also probably agree with
>the philosophy of that cabal,
>TWO.

See above, purity and clarity fit perfectly
in the sphere of water, and in the village.

>3. I could probably understand if
>through tremendous roleplay, Armand clinched
>a tattoo. But a high
>priest? As a ilraeth, you
>would be quite aware that
>Armand while exhibiting some extraordinary
>characteristics

Thanks.

>as a rager who
>worships you, will also be
>trying to kill the very
>members to a cabal whom
>you are the patron for.

(change patron to leader)

>By giving to Armand, the
>natural enemy of your patron
>worshippers/subjects/followers the status of high
>priest, are you not sending
>waves (no pun intended) of
>contradiction down the very length
>of your followers?

I know, isn't that neat? Roleplay Roleplay Roleplay.

>
>4. If I follow closely too,
>Ilraeth and her sister were
>formed from the essences of
>a previous Master Immortal. Tied
>closely to magic, wizardry, sorcery,
>wouldn't this too be cause
>for a particular kind of
>personality, which while not necessarily
>wanting the blood and death
>of every villager, be at
>least repulsed by it?

The personal Dogma of Armand is known to
the village. They do not see it as a worship of
magic, but a worship of the ways of water.
How many times can Armand say, "I wish only to be
as the waters are." Purity and Clarity again
fit perfectly within the sphere of the village
if roleplayed correctly for that.

>
>If, broken down in simple form,
>WARLOCK = LIGHT + MAGIC
>
>then patron of WARLOCK = IMMORTAL
>PRESENCE OF LIGHT + MAGIC
>
>High Priest of patron = HIGH
>PRIEST OF IMMORTAL OF LIGHT
>+ MAGIC

You are forgetting that Armand does not
worship warlocks, he follows a religious belief.
And nowhere in his patrons cabal does it say
that the cabal members must hunt and slay the
priest for his beliefs or path.

High Priest of Patron = High Priest
of a Religion. Not of a cabal, or
what cabal the immortal leads.

>
>WHY I AM GOING INTO THIS
>
>
>What I'm really trying to get
>at is the seeming notion
>that Gods and Goddess are
>above good, evil and neutral.
>Carrionfields is a world where
>the light have gold auras,
>and the evil have red
>auras. These auras were given
>by the gods and goddesses
>to their faithful to identify
>the spirit of the mortals.
>Hence, spirits can be good
>and evil.

If Armand slaying elf invokers and the
like was considered 'evil' he would have
been in trouble a long long time ago. The
way this is pulled off is that Armand believes
that magic is 'bad' and 'evil' and in destroying
it he does something 'good'.. hence his actions
are good.. to make a long story short.

>Aren't gods and goddessses essentially 'spirit'?
>The meaning of the word
>escapes me here, but I
>know of the deep belief
>that and overriding philosophy that
>the gods and goddesses are
>beyond good and evil. It's
>one of the things I
>don't agree with, because if
>mortals are a translation, mirror
>of the divine, and there
>is good and evil on
>earth, then there will be
>good and evil in the
>heavenlies. Take the angels, archons
>versus the demons and devils,
>for example. Take the war
>between heaven and hell, for
>example.
>
>Is there even a meaning to
>saying a phrase 'Shokai is
>a God of Light, and
>Scarabaeus a God of Darkness',
>if there are no differentiations?
>

Absolutly.. because there is another
conflict that results from that.
It's not like a dark elf who seeks destruction
could follow Shokai.. or vice versa, because
of the inherant conflict.

Battlerager cabal is not an align based cabal.
ALSO, Ilraeth's goal is not the destruction of the village.
ALSO, Warlocks do not seek the destruction of the village.

The only real conflict is with the challenges Armand faces.
Which is really cool if you think about it, you have
complete control over the roleplay of your character
no other outside forces really have push or sway over
you. Unless of course it is done through roleplaying.

Thanks again Bessian. I'm beggining to see why Bessian
treated Armand the way he did.. Thanks again!

Armand

>Armand is very active in preaching
>to others of the ways of water. I would
>think that one who goes out and not only
>preaches the word or path of a god, but
>actually sheds blood and lives and
>develops stratagies against others who do
>NOT follow the god would be a very
>very good person to be one to draw others
>to a faith, or at least make them AWARE of
>the faith.

Interesting. Of course, this makes me wonder how Armand rationalizes the existence of Anastrianna and Annalena. In his eyes they must be 'evil' to use magic, yet each is clearly embraced by his Goddess.

How would Armand spread the religion of Ilraeth to a young mage, seeking to learn more about her? Or better yet an older mage who is actually in Armand's PK range? Could he hold off killing this person long enough to tell him anything about Ilraeth, or would the lesson consist primarily of a swift blow to the head?

Just some thoughts.

>While I can see your point,
>you would have to take
>
>into account that warlocks don't follow
>Ilraeth.
>They are warlocks. This isn't the
>cult, not everyone
>in the cabal is a follower
>of a certain religion.
>It has little to do with
>me killing 'followers'
>of Ilraeth, and more to do
>with me killing mages.

Your argument doesn't really shed like on how a patron goddess to a cabal would not have problems with her high priest being dead set against killing everyone in that cabal, and taking the grimoire. Arguing that a cabal is not a religion does not address the fact that a patron goddess, generally speaking, wouldn't want the people she is 'patron' to, to get killed by her own high priest.

>The gods are the gods. While
>I agree
>there is a fair amount of
>tension (or at
>least there should be) in asguaard,
>a mortal
>would not get 'in trouble' for
>following
>the teachings of another god. Especially
>
>when the way it is _roleplayed_
>fits perfectly
>into the sphere of being a
>battlerager, and
>totally by coincidence, the 'purity' of
>the water
>that Armand talks about so much
>can kind of be seen
>
>by the purity of Thror's sphere.

Again, you haven't really answered my question. Briefly, what I said in my earlier text was that the war on earth is translated to the war in the heavenlies. Thror would probably not like Zulghinlor, or Ilraeth. Hence, if a battlerager who is devoted to the destruction of magic, the hatred of magic, suddenly starts to worship an essentially magic goddess, and THEN becomes the magic goddess's high priest, the first reaction should be a very negative and violent one.

This notion of 'anything is possible with the right roleplay' seems to be the panacea answer to any argument. If somebody says 'Hey, a follower of Shokai shouldn't be killing orphans', then tongue in cheek the reply 'Oh, with the right roleplay he could be' seems too simplistic.

Other than preaching the ways of the water, how is the very serious contradiction between the high priest of an enemy magic cabal and the pull between hating magic is resolved? Water is just on aspect of Ilraeth's religion, and is the symbol more of knowledge and being a seeker. How is this essential contradiction addressed?

>
>Armand is very active in preaching
>to others of
>the ways of water. I would
>think that one who
>goes out and not only preaches
>the word or path
>of a god, but actually sheds
>blood and lives and
>develops stratagies against others who do
>NOT follow
>the god would be a very
>very good person to be

But quite a lot of the blood you're shedding are the members of your patron's cabal! Which seems to imply that Ilraeth favors you over the entire warlock cabal. Bottom line again is that her high priest is killing the members of her patronage. *IF* Armand is promoting Ilraeth by showing clarity to the warlocks, then by killing the warlocks, aren't you essentially saying that either 1) Ilaeath shouldn't be their patron or 2) Ilraeth wants all her patron followers to be run into the ground?

I noted with interest Nepenthe's two cents below, about how in real life, religions are often battleground dogmas of conflicting principles. The common justification to that of course is that people will be people, and its *usually* people who decide who's going to be high priest or sect leader in the real world, and there's a lot of power and yuckiness mixed up with so called divine truth. But in the real world, priests are determined by human machinations. In the CF world, Armand was appointed by Ilraeth herself, so the "imperfect world" argument raised by Nepenthe isn't totally valid, unless Ilraeth actually desires for her high priest to be killing her patron followers, which I supposed would add an interesting twist to things.

>See above, purity and clarity fit
>perfectly
>in the sphere of water, and
>in the village.

The perfect fit of one aspect of a sphere doesn't negate the contradictions of the other. Purity and clarity may fit, but being the patron of a magic cabal does not. The fit of one doesn't negate the 'disfit' of the other.

>I know, isn't that neat? Roleplay
>Roleplay Roleplay.

I suppose what you might call neat roleplay another would call 'total contradiction' and 'doesn't make sense at all' and someone less kind would go so far to say 'that's stupid and dumb'. Still, they only have their opinion, while you have your magic hating powers and your priesthood title, so I'd say you have an advantage if we go down that road.

>>4. If I follow closely too,
>>Ilraeth and her sister were
>>formed from the essences of
>>a previous Master Immortal. Tied
>>closely to magic, wizardry, sorcery,
>>wouldn't this too be cause
>>for a particular kind of
>>personality, which while not necessarily
>>wanting the blood and death
>>of every villager, be at
>>least repulsed by it?
>
>The personal Dogma of Armand is
>known to
>the village. They do not see
>it as a worship of
>
>magic, but a worship of the
>ways of water.
>How many times can Armand say,
>"I wish only to be
>
>as the waters are." Purity and
>Clarity again
>fit perfectly within the sphere of
>the village
>if roleplayed correctly for that.

Again, let me recap. The perfect fit of One aspect of a diety does not affect the total contradiction or misfit of the other aspects of the diety. It's like this. If you want to marry a girl who's blonde and tall, and the primary criteria are blonde AND tall, then it wouldn't matter if she's 8 feet tall but a red head, would she?

>>If, broken down in simple form,
>>WARLOCK = LIGHT + MAGIC
>>
>>then patron of WARLOCK = IMMORTAL
>>PRESENCE OF LIGHT + MAGIC
>>
>>High Priest of patron = HIGH
>>PRIEST OF IMMORTAL OF LIGHT
>>+ MAGIC
>
>You are forgetting that Armand does
>not
>worship warlocks, he follows a religious
>belief.
>And nowhere in his patrons cabal
>does it say
>that the cabal members must hunt
>and slay the
>priest for his beliefs or path.

A religious belief is the promoting of a way of thought, but also the worship of a diety. You don't see any contradiction that while you may worship your diety, you also are actively murdering all the people she's a patron to? Aren't you destroying the aspects of her beliefs, her characteristics, that you don't agree with?

It's irrelevant that the warlocks don't want to kill the village. It just makes them more confused. If I were a warlock I would be asking myself every night 'why is the high priest of my patron goddess trying to kill me? DOesn't my goddess want me to promote my magic? But the high priest says magic is bad.' Eventually, assuming Armand is super-uber successful and murders the entire warlock cabal, than heck, what's Ilreath's suposed to be patron to? DOes Ilraeth WANT the warlocks to be slain by you?



I'm too tired to go into the good and evil thing. Heh.

Again, you haven't really answered my question. Briefly, what I said in my earlier text was that the war on earth is translated to the war in the heavenlies. Thror would probably not like Zulghinlor, or Ilraeth. Hence, if a battlerager who is devoted to the destruction of magic, the hatred of magic, suddenly starts to worship an essentially magic goddess, and THEN becomes the magic goddess's high priest, the first reaction should be a very negative and violent one.



A) Battlerager dogma: Magic is for the gods.
B) Ilraeth is a god.
C) Your thinking on this matter is very black and white.

Bessians statement intrigued me and to a point it really does seem to be correct...take a real world example.

An internet startup company thing, you are a venture capatilist who's just put lots of money into this company and they are working away with you as their patron. Do you then sponsor a rival company, arm them with guns and send them into the first company to kill them all and then expect the first company to still appreciate you?

Well as you said Jhyrbian, that magic is for the gods, with the expection of priest which they grant them power. This is the overall belief of the Ragers. I see no problem with Armand being a rager and a priest of Ilraeth. However I do see a problem with him battling mages afterwords, when one of her High Priest is a Mage, aswell as several of her followers. There are a couple of things that can be concluded.

1) Ilraeth believes that mortals do deserve the use of magic, and as a follower you shouldn't see a problem with mages since Ilraeth does appoint postions of Priesthood to mages.

2) Maybe some mages have been give permission to use magic, thus are tattooed and some made high priest. Those particular mages should certianly be exempt of any sort of attacks from ragers, or at least from ragers that follow Ilraeth.

However just as Bessian said, being a patron god of the Warlocks and having rager follower(s)almost makes little sense. However since things need to be governed in game by the immortals to make sure things run smoothly, we do have to accept this fact. A major thing about religions, that once tattooed you should be a full worshipper of the religion itself, not an aspect of it like water. It is all or nothing if you are to be truly faithful to your god/goddess. An empowered character or simple follower maybe be different and need only follow an aspect. It is that last growing step of when one becomes tattooed, let alone a High Priest that things change. High Priest, such as High Priest of Water, my govern that particular part of the religion, but should and would work with the other aspects of the religion to see it grow. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Bagsharn

I would like to address some of the points you raised here.

1. 'The village is not the enemy of the warlocks'

By that statement, you view that the warlocks don't necessarily want to see the villagers dead. But after all the corpses, skins, ponchos and library research of history, surely the warlocks themselves know that the villagers see them as an enemy. The testimony of dead bodies and skin everywhere should be sufficient. 'I am not your enemy' may be true, but 'You are trying to kill all my followers' should certainly be a higher hurdle to jump over.

(Individual warlocks may indeed want to see the villagers burned at the stake, and the ashes scattered, but that is NOT the goal of the warlocks as a whole. The main focus of the cabal is to guide and protect against the use of "evil" magic, with the side goal of protecting the light. Personal feelings aside, that is the main goal of every warlock, and since the village doesn’t use magic, and is not inherently evil, they don’t view the village as being an "enemy")

2. Armand was very good as an RP applicant

From most of my conversations, I can certainly testify that the words 'water' certainly are bound to enter it. I'm surprised why Thror would not see Armand's worship of you as something to be concerned about. There are wars in the heavens, and certainly, some gods favor others, and some just want to kill others, as can be seen in the past heavenly war. I can see Thror going 'Aye Lad, yer be a courageous one and a wily foe o the war, dere' to one of his favourite battle ragers, but I certainly do not see him toasting a mug of ale to Ilraeth, former essence of a Master Immortal, and current patron of a magical wizard cabal. If there is at least a certain level of rivalry, if not hatred in the heavenlies, why wasn't this translated onto earth?

(Thror may dislike Ilraeth for many reasons, (her link to the Masters through her birth, her focus on cold and ice, and her patronship of the warlocks, but this would have little effect on Armand's belief in the path of clarity. Nothing in the Seeker religion is apposed to Thror's religion. As for translating to earth, Thror's dislike for Ilraeth, as I see it, would have little effect on Armand, other then a possible echoing of those feelings on a personal level)

3. Magic is not knowledge. Okay.

(Hmm... Not sure if you got my point on that one or not)


The main difficulty I have is based on a number of assumptions, really.

1. That Gods and Goddesses have characters and personalities. There are stiff gods, generally angry gods, whispering gods, chaotic gods, unpleasant gods, and nice gods. (see Shokai). These personalities and characteristics translate into emotions, and how they view certain mortals. For example, hypothetically, Balgrimnr might favor a knight of zealous honor, over say, a thief with mynawk's. So gods and goddesses have personal favourites, and these translate into tattoos. Out of those who are tattooed, one is chosen to be a high priest or priestess, the mortal representative who bests represents that god or goddess's goals, personality, intersts, characteristics, and who bests draws others to the faith.


(I could be mistaken, but it seems like you’re under the misunderstanding that Armand is THE high priest of the Seeker religion. The religion has (potentially) one high priest for each sphere under which she governs her religion, with Annalena having the one time position as Overall High Priestess of the religion. Armand was chosen for high priest of water because of his efforts in that sphere, and that sphere alone)

2. Coming back to the personalities, and different likings. Bria, for example, being the patron of the Tribunal, would likely exhibit lawful tendencies, and the same for Shokai, Scarabaeus, Thror, etc, all of whom act, speak, behave and prefer different ways. Hence, patrons of certain cabals usually favor those who are part of those cabals, ONE, and also probably agree with the philosophy of that cabal, TWO.

(I agree that gods do (and should) tend to choose more followers from the cabals they oversee, but don’t think for a minute that just because a Rager was accepted as a follower, that this will be a common occurrence. It was and will be, a very rare thing.)


3. I could probably understand if through tremendous roleplay, Armand clinched a tattoo. But a high priest? As a ilraeth, you would be quite aware that Armand while exhibiting some extraordinary characteristics as a rager who worships you, will also be trying to kill the very members to a cabal whom you are the patron for. By giving to Armand, the natural enemy of your patron worshippers/subjects/followers the status of high priest, are you not sending waves (no pun intended) of contradiction down the very length of your followers?

(Not really. Although there is a conflict with the cabal and Armand, there isn’t one with Armand and my followers since Seekers aren’t allowed to draw each others blood)

4. If I follow closely too, Ilraeth and her sister were formed from the essences of a previous Master Immortal. Tied closely to magic, wizardry, sorcery, wouldn't this too be cause for a particular kind of personality, which while not necessarily wanting the blood and death of every villager, be at least repulsed by it?

(Ilraeth and Savraeth were indeed born from the essence of a dying Master Immortal, and they do share her memories, however, this doesn’t mean that they are tied to the beliefs and goals she had. True, each of the twins mirrors a part of her being, that’s only a base from what they grew on. Savraeth took the love of magic and developed from that, Ilraeth took the desire to grow and learn, and developed her own personality and beliefs. Savraeth, would naturally hate Armand for what he does as a Battle Rager, but Ilraeth on the other hand, believes that death comes to all things and it may not be something to praise and glory in, but it is something that’s accepted and learned from.


If, broken down in simple form, WARLOCK = LIGHT + MAGIC
then patron of WARLOCK = IMMORTAL PRESENCE OF LIGHT + MAGIC
High Priest of patron = HIGH PRIEST OF IMMORTAL OF LIGHT + MAGIC

( WARLOCK (CABAL) = MAGIC + LIGHT
IMMORTAL 1 (Ilraeth) = KNOWLEDGE + LIGHT
For the cabal this means she seeks to guide the warlocks in gaining knowledge and using it to further the cause of the light. For her Religion it means she teaches: Learn all you can before you die (in short).
IMMORTAL 2 (Savraeth) = MAGIC + LIGHT = Seeks to guide the warlocks in the mastery and understanding of magic, to further the cause of the light.

WHY I AM GOING INTO THIS

What I'm really trying to get at is the seeming notion that Gods and Goddess are above good, evil and neutral. Carrionfields is a world where the light have gold auras, and the evil have red auras. These auras were given by the gods and goddesses to their faithful to identify the spirit of the mortals. Hence, spirits can be good and evil.

Aren't gods and goddessses essentially 'spirit'? The meaning of the word escapes me here, but I know of the deep belief that and overriding philosophy that the gods and goddesses are beyond good and evil. It's one of the things I don't agree with, because if mortals are a translation, mirror of the divine, and there is good and evil on earth, then there will be good and evil in the heavenlies. Take the angels, archons versus the demons and devils, for example. Take the war between heaven and hell, for example.

Is there even a meaning to saying a phrase 'Shokai is a God of Light, and Scarabaeus a God of Darkness', if there are no differentiations?

(I agree with you to a point about gods not being above good and evil (to a point), but just because one favors a mortal who seems odd and out of place, doesn’t mean that they give up a belief in what’s good and evil. It only means they saw something in that person that others don’t, or that this person represents a factor of the gods beliefs. (in this case, Armand was the best example of the belief in clarity, under the sphere of Water.)

If you feel there can not be any transcendence between ideals, religions and individuals then you must have had a fit when you saw Gynax, a follower of Guerric, an evil diety in the Maran.

Guerric's ideals and Gynax's fit perfectly and being a Maran was the result from the combination of being of the "light" and being an adherent to Guerric's teachings.

Character's believes in combination with their backgrounds and alignment can make for very interesting journeys belief me you!!

Note that Pride was the downfall of the Knights and that Gynax was a devote believer in Pride, Fate and Courage. Ask Yetharien about the fusion, it made for many an argument.. eh Yethy??

Psektos.

>-Scarab-
>
>Nobody really to mention except Drucyrus.
>What can I say? A
>tough shaman, but your notes
>on Dioxide take away most
>of the admiration that I
>would have had for you,
>but for the way you
>post your logs. It's still
>a game, no need to
>rub the faces of your
>foes into the dirt even
>if you're better.
>

I have little respect for you. I felt you a disgrace to the paladin guild and your cowardice a snub to your cabal. If you cannot differentiate between an OOC forum and the game itself, it sounds like a personal problem to me.

P.S. there is a reason I do what I do, but I well eventually tell all in time.

Drucyrus

>>I have little respect for you. I felt you a disgrace to the paladin guild and your cowardice a snub to your cabal. If you cannot differentiate between an OOC forum and the game itself, it sounds like a personal problem to me.

>> P.S. there is a reason I do what I do, but I well eventually tell all in time.

Could It be that YOu can't make the distinction between the game and an OOC Forum? Could it be that your Sphere Vanity and you try to manipulate outside the game?