Valguarnera | Mon 19-Apr-10 06:58 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
6904 posts
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#32010, "My opinion re: class balance at mid-levels:"
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Disclaimer: I'm not discussing social/RP goals, because that's independent of level/class/etc. I'm sticking with quantitative pursuits.
Empirically, we see that most characters with high kill rates and low death rates in the mid-levels are melee-based-- typically warriors, assassins, and rangers, with berserkers, thug-ish thieves, and APs somewhere in there. Less often, someone will be aggressive with a mage (invoker, transmuter are least rare), but they tend to die more often than the top-tier melee characters.
This is easy to understand-- if someone gets the drop on your sword-spec warrior, there's a decent chance you can hold off their melee, and flee if they go for high damage instead of lag. (And if they do lag you out, you might beat them. A surprising number of people insist on tripping themselves to death.) If someone gets the drop on your invoker, there's some chance you aren't getting a command in while you melee like a girl. Throw in the large edge in HP inherent to the classes, and it's much harder to 'blitz' sword spec guy.
I'm not saying you can't be PK-successful with every class, but generally speaking the guy who can manufacture clever ways to murder people with lowbie necromancer... can run up that kill count in half the time and a quarter of the losses with a melee build.
Back in the old days, the counter-argument (which I don't like, and can comment on if asked) was that melee types tended to suck at hero, so it was balanced by early strength. Lately, that empirically hasn't been the case-- for example, if I list the 25 deadliest characters now, there are 14 that can't cast/commune/sing, plus 6 more paladins/anti-paladins that are squarely in the hybrid realm. Most did most of their damage at the upper ranks. And while any player can name tough Fifth Age warriors, you certainly can't say that for every class.
This has a negative effect when the perception becomes "If I'm playing one of ~7-9 classes, my optimal strategy is to keep my head down and power-level.", for several reasons:
1) Power-leveling is monotonous, and can wear out one's desire to log on. 2) They try to remove themselves from PK, which reduces options for others. 3) If they don't see a group, they log off because they don't perceive anything to do. Even if leveling was first among other tasks (exploration, raiding, gathering items, PK stuff, etc.), they'd likely hang around, while groupmates might pop up.
(A compounding problem is that melee types are also desirable groupmates, so random low-level mage wants to power-rank but is wanted the least.)
My inclination is that the mid-level mechanical side of the game would be more interesting if:
1) Melee classes 'matured' slower. My bias is that Dual Wield is a sensible target here. 2) The 7-9 classes I mentioned get upgrades in the lower ranks. I think we've come part of the way-- low-rank shifter is a lot better, the newer Spellcraft is kinder to midbies, more midbie-ish wands and other devices exist, transmuters are more viable early, unempowered people have some punch that lasts into the 20s at least, etc.
Both of the above ripple outwards, of course. If you beef up all the mages/etc., PvE (*) gets easier, and if you're not careful you end up skewing the hero ranks as well. Conversely, as you slow down melee types, PvE gets a little harder, although other classes look more attractive as groupmates.
It's not an easy problem, but I can say that the majority (but not all) of the staff I've run this past lean towards some kind of action being good for the game. In particular, it would be nice to be able to tell new players "Play whatever seems the most fun for you." without having to add "Although you might find it a good bit harder." You see a lot of people on the New Player forum with the mindset "I play necromancers.", and telling them "Don't, for now." rarely goes over well.
valguarnera@carrionfields.com
(*): Player vs. Environment-- ranking, exploring, gathering items and money, etc. Things you could do if you were the only person on.
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Random topic of discussion: Midlevels
[View all] , Daevryn, Tue 18-May-10 08:27 PM
Thread locked for sprawl. Please start sub-topics. (n/...,
Valguarnera,
20-May-10 05:37 AM, #177
Low level limited badassery items.,
Straklaw,
18-May-10 05:35 PM, #162
Just a thought:,
Marcus_,
17-May-10 12:43 PM, #154
RE: Just a thought:,
Daevryn,
17-May-10 02:09 PM, #163
I actually like Marcus' idea.,
sleepy,
17-May-10 02:42 PM, #155
Hello from Hollywood.,
Pro,
18-May-10 01:31 AM, #156
RE: Hello from Hollywood.,
Fjarn,
19-May-10 10:08 AM, #166
RE: Hello from Hollywood.,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-May-10 10:23 AM, #168
Definitely,
Valkenar,
19-May-10 10:35 AM, #169
RE: Hello from Hollywood.,
Isildur,
19-May-10 12:38 PM, #170
RE: Hello from Hollywood.,
Valkenar,
19-May-10 12:56 PM, #171
RE: Hello from Hollywood.,
Isildur,
19-May-10 01:25 PM, #172
Meh,
Valkenar,
19-May-10 03:03 PM, #173
RE: Meh,
Isildur,
19-May-10 03:09 PM, #174
RE: Hello from Hollywood.,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-May-10 03:11 PM, #175
RE: Just a thought:,
ORB,
18-May-10 08:37 AM, #157
As a total train whore,
Valkenar,
18-May-10 09:29 AM, #158
Cosign.,
Dervish,
18-May-10 11:13 AM, #160
RE: As a total train whore,
Isildur,
18-May-10 04:10 PM, #161
Con trains,
Valkenar,
19-May-10 08:00 AM, #165
RE: Just a thought:,
Hutto,
18-May-10 10:57 AM, #159
RE: Just a thought:,
Fjarn,
19-May-10 10:12 AM, #167
Maybe,
Valkenar,
19-May-10 08:34 PM, #176
Using Marcus' idea but,
Abernyte,
19-May-10 06:19 AM, #164
Now that this has cooked for a while,
Mekantos,
06-May-10 12:51 PM, #144
RE: Now that this has cooked for a while,
Daevryn,
06-May-10 12:53 PM, #145
FYI, this is up on Announcements now (n/t),
Daevryn,
12-May-10 02:27 PM, #153
An imm question related to this topic,
Habbs,
04-May-10 01:06 PM, #138
Mostly no:,
Daevryn,
04-May-10 01:26 PM, #139
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Straklaw,
26-Apr-10 04:00 AM, #136
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Tyrjal,
25-Apr-10 07:13 PM, #135
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Tsunami,
24-Apr-10 12:30 PM, #132
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Doge,
23-Apr-10 09:49 PM, #130
There used to be no xp cap.,
trewyn,
23-Apr-10 10:55 PM, #131
THE XP DYING PENALTY PLEASE,
dribbit,
24-Apr-10 08:49 PM, #133
If you can't find your way out of a strange area, quaff...,
DurNominator,
24-Apr-10 11:41 PM, #134
RE: There used to be no xp cap.,
Doge,
26-Apr-10 02:23 PM, #137
But the good thing about seeing -34% tnl,
Pendragon_Surtr,
06-May-10 03:19 AM, #141
For me, there is always a tickle in the back of my head...,
Habbs,
23-Apr-10 11:48 AM, #129
Adjust XP penalties, adjust ranking areas, adjust where,
Amortis,
22-Apr-10 09:52 AM, #125
re: expanded where,
Quixotic,
22-Apr-10 12:34 PM, #127
Spell Power Vs. Enhanced Damage,
Seilclavin,
20-Apr-10 09:52 AM, #115
RE: Gear-based Spell Idea,
Quixotic,
20-Apr-10 11:52 AM, #119
RE: Gear-based Spell Idea,
Daevryn,
20-Apr-10 12:23 PM, #120
You overlooked,
Quixotic,
20-Apr-10 12:35 PM, #121
RE: Gear-based Spell Idea,
The Heretic,
07-May-10 09:21 AM, #146
Best way to equalize mages and melee,
Doof,
21-Apr-10 11:55 AM, #124
RE: Best way to equalize mages and melee,
wjdenny,
05-May-10 02:16 PM, #140
I haven't read the rest of the posts, but I like mid le...,
Cointreau,
20-Apr-10 03:42 AM, #109
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Asthiss,
20-Apr-10 02:40 AM, #108
I disagree.,
Eskelian,
20-Apr-10 09:14 AM, #113
RE: I disagree.,
Asthiss,
21-Apr-10 02:18 AM, #123
RE: My Experience,
Tac,
19-Apr-10 07:50 PM, #102
Actually I do have one suggestion....,
Tac,
19-Apr-10 08:00 PM, #103
I like these suggestions a lot.,
ibuki,
20-Apr-10 05:11 AM, #111
Another random thought.... re: scrolls,
Tac,
20-Apr-10 02:56 PM, #122
My opinion re: class balance at mid-levels:,
Valguarnera,
19-Apr-10 06:58 PM #99
Good post.,
Zephon,
19-Apr-10 09:22 PM, #105
I pretty much agree with all of this,
Drag0nSt0rm,
19-Apr-10 10:51 PM, #106
Shout-out to the IMM staff within.,
TheLastMohican,
19-Apr-10 11:03 PM, #107
These are great observations. nt,
GinGa,
20-Apr-10 03:47 AM, #110
RE: My opinion re: class balance at mid-levels:,
Cerunnir,
20-Apr-10 08:11 AM, #112
Not to me,
trewyn,
20-Apr-10 09:13 AM, #114
RE: Not to me,
Daevryn,
20-Apr-10 09:55 AM, #116
She did on Dio's.,
Dervish,
20-Apr-10 10:41 AM, #118
RE: Not to me,
Cerunnir,
20-Apr-10 10:22 AM, #117
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
GrahamC,
19-Apr-10 05:50 PM, #93
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
laxman,
19-Apr-10 06:16 PM, #96
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Isildur,
19-Apr-10 05:37 PM, #91
do it once do it twice,
laxman,
19-Apr-10 06:12 PM, #95
Its the luck factor...,
Elerosse,
19-Apr-10 06:29 PM, #97
Perception is a killer,
laxman,
19-Apr-10 04:41 PM, #84
Holy crap Mulshine, I totally agree with you for once!,
TheLastMohican,
19-Apr-10 04:43 PM, #85
RE: Perception is a killer,
Eskelian,
19-Apr-10 05:34 PM, #90
Some thoughts on making low/mid level pk better.,
Marcus_,
19-Apr-10 04:10 PM, #76
RE: Some thoughts on making low/mid level pk better.,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 04:13 PM, #77
RE: Equipment,
vargal,
19-Apr-10 04:23 PM, #79
I disagree on mage/melee,
laxman,
19-Apr-10 04:23 PM, #80
I agree with this.,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-Apr-10 04:54 PM, #86
RE: I disagree on mage/melee,
Marcus_,
19-Apr-10 05:09 PM, #88
again when did you see one try,
laxman,
19-Apr-10 06:07 PM, #94
RE: again when did you see one try,
Marcus_,
19-Apr-10 06:33 PM, #98
A batch of thoughts,
Mekantos,
19-Apr-10 03:54 PM, #70
Two points: cabal imbalance and shiny addictions,
Vortex Magus,
19-Apr-10 03:41 PM, #69
RE: Two points: cabal imbalance and shiny addictions,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 04:08 PM, #74
Damage scaling, Con gains, and skills,
Valkenar,
19-Apr-10 02:15 PM, #55
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Eskelian,
19-Apr-10 01:01 PM, #37
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 01:09 PM, #42
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-Apr-10 01:13 PM, #43
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 01:19 PM, #47
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-Apr-10 01:33 PM, #50
Bards certainly are weak,
thendrell,
19-Apr-10 02:26 PM, #60
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Hutto,
19-Apr-10 01:23 PM, #48
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 01:28 PM, #49
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Hutto,
19-Apr-10 01:42 PM, #52
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 02:12 PM, #58
Here we go,
Dervish,
19-Apr-10 01:46 PM, #53
RE: Here we go,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 02:07 PM, #56
Thoughts + ideas.,
Cerunnir,
19-Apr-10 03:04 PM, #59
Cosign. I'd love to see some logs of PBFs, Nep nt,
Dervish,
19-Apr-10 02:31 PM, #61
RE: Cosign. I'd love to see some logs of PBFs, Nep nt,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 02:54 PM, #63
I cant resist to quote you,
Dervish,
19-Apr-10 03:01 PM, #65
RE: I cant resist to quote you,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 03:21 PM, #67
Tell their names at least? nt,
Dervish,
19-Apr-10 04:18 PM, #78
RE: Tell their names at least? nt,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 04:28 PM, #82
I beat down people with my four path invoker...,
TheLastMohican,
19-Apr-10 04:28 PM, #83
Well,
Dervish,
19-Apr-10 04:59 PM, #87
RE: Well,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 07:10 PM, #100
RE: Here we go,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 02:54 PM, #62
RE: Here we go,
Cerunnir,
19-Apr-10 03:16 PM, #66
RE: Here we go,
Mekantos,
19-Apr-10 03:56 PM, #72
RE: Here we go,
Dervish,
19-Apr-10 05:12 PM, #89
Urden, Jahfenar, Ilrahsek, Ikanu.,
Mekantos,
19-Apr-10 05:39 PM, #92
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Eskelian,
19-Apr-10 02:17 PM, #54
Things that would make me stay in the mid levels,
Drag0nSt0rm,
19-Apr-10 12:55 PM, #35
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Beroxxus,
19-Apr-10 12:54 PM, #34
Give out Cabal Rewards Sooner,
trewyn,
19-Apr-10 12:48 PM, #31
Cosign on first and last suggestions nt,
Dervish,
19-Apr-10 12:51 PM, #33
I agree with all of these ideas. 110% nt,
Drag0nSt0rm,
19-Apr-10 12:57 PM, #36
RE: Give out Cabal Rewards Sooner,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 01:05 PM, #40
Explore early and move is never a problem.,
thendrell,
19-Apr-10 01:14 PM, #44
Except,
Dervish,
19-Apr-10 01:40 PM, #51
RE: Give out Cabal Rewards Sooner,
Mekantos,
19-Apr-10 01:15 PM, #45
RE: Give out Cabal Rewards Sooner,
GrahamC,
19-Apr-10 02:55 PM, #64
RE: Give out Cabal Rewards Sooner,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 03:24 PM, #68
<== is king of that.,
trewyn,
19-Apr-10 07:32 PM, #101
Ragers do get ####ed. But that's part of being a rager...,
TheLastMohican,
19-Apr-10 09:07 PM, #104
RE: movement regen,
Zulghinlour,
19-Apr-10 03:59 PM, #73
RE: movement regen,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 04:09 PM, #75
RE: movement regen,
Marcus_,
19-Apr-10 04:28 PM, #81
RE: movement regen,
Isildur,
14-May-10 11:29 AM, #151
RE: movement regen,
Hutto,
13-May-10 05:00 PM, #147
RE: movement regen,
Isildur,
14-May-10 11:19 AM, #150
This isn't a possitive but...,
Pro,
19-Apr-10 11:58 AM, #22
I would say my biggest mechanical dislike in the game i...,
Pro,
19-Apr-10 12:01 PM, #23
RE: I would say my biggest mechanical dislike in the ga...,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-Apr-10 01:17 PM, #46
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
thendrell,
19-Apr-10 11:58 AM, #21
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 12:31 PM, #29
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-Apr-10 01:06 PM, #41
Damn your logic.,
thendrell,
19-Apr-10 02:07 PM, #57
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Gryshilniar,
06-May-10 12:09 PM, #142
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Daevryn,
06-May-10 12:50 PM, #143
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
A2,
13-May-10 11:45 PM, #148
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Daevryn,
14-May-10 09:00 AM, #149
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
A2,
14-May-10 11:33 AM, #152
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
TJHuron,
19-Apr-10 11:49 AM, #20
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 12:28 PM, #27
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
TJHuron,
19-Apr-10 01:03 PM, #39
Ideas,
Quixotic,
19-Apr-10 11:18 AM, #12
RE: Ideas,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-Apr-10 11:28 AM, #16
RE: Heralds,
Quixotic,
19-Apr-10 12:22 PM, #25
RE: Heralds,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-Apr-10 12:49 PM, #32
RE: Heralds,
thendrell,
19-Apr-10 03:53 PM, #71
RE: Ideas,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 11:31 AM, #17
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Hutto,
19-Apr-10 11:08 AM, #10
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Hutto,
19-Apr-10 11:42 AM, #13
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Hutto,
22-Apr-10 10:10 AM, #126
Con Loss.,
Pro,
22-Apr-10 01:57 PM, #128
Off the cuff.,
Dallevian,
19-Apr-10 10:55 AM, #8
Last thing would be great to help newbies nt,
Dervish,
19-Apr-10 11:27 AM, #15
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
ORB,
19-Apr-10 10:48 AM, #7
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 10:56 AM, #9
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-Apr-10 11:16 AM, #11
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 11:26 AM, #14
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-Apr-10 11:37 AM, #18
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 12:22 PM, #24
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-Apr-10 01:00 PM, #38
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Dervish,
19-Apr-10 11:43 AM, #19
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 12:26 PM, #26
Yes, I agree with you. I just pointed out two cases I e...,
Dervish,
19-Apr-10 12:29 PM, #28
Fair enough n/t,
Daevryn,
19-Apr-10 12:33 PM, #30
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-Apr-10 10:30 AM, #3
Nothing.,
Dervish,
19-Apr-10 10:30 AM, #2
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
34-inside,
19-Apr-10 10:20 AM, #1
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
sorlag (Anonymous),
19-Apr-10 10:34 AM, #4
Dunno, I never had big problems finding a group,
Dervish,
19-Apr-10 10:38 AM, #5
RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels,
34-inside,
19-Apr-10 10:39 AM, #6
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