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ValguarneraMon 19-Apr-10 06:58 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#32010, "My opinion re: class balance at mid-levels:"


          

Disclaimer: I'm not discussing social/RP goals, because that's independent of level/class/etc. I'm sticking with quantitative pursuits.

Empirically, we see that most characters with high kill rates and low death rates in the mid-levels are melee-based-- typically warriors, assassins, and rangers, with berserkers, thug-ish thieves, and APs somewhere in there. Less often, someone will be aggressive with a mage (invoker, transmuter are least rare), but they tend to die more often than the top-tier melee characters.

This is easy to understand-- if someone gets the drop on your sword-spec warrior, there's a decent chance you can hold off their melee, and flee if they go for high damage instead of lag. (And if they do lag you out, you might beat them. A surprising number of people insist on tripping themselves to death.) If someone gets the drop on your invoker, there's some chance you aren't getting a command in while you melee like a girl. Throw in the large edge in HP inherent to the classes, and it's much harder to 'blitz' sword spec guy.

I'm not saying you can't be PK-successful with every class, but generally speaking the guy who can manufacture clever ways to murder people with lowbie necromancer... can run up that kill count in half the time and a quarter of the losses with a melee build.

Back in the old days, the counter-argument (which I don't like, and can comment on if asked) was that melee types tended to suck at hero, so it was balanced by early strength. Lately, that empirically hasn't been the case-- for example, if I list the 25 deadliest characters now, there are 14 that can't cast/commune/sing, plus 6 more paladins/anti-paladins that are squarely in the hybrid realm. Most did most of their damage at the upper ranks. And while any player can name tough Fifth Age warriors, you certainly can't say that for every class.

This has a negative effect when the perception becomes "If I'm playing one of ~7-9 classes, my optimal strategy is to keep my head down and power-level.", for several reasons:

1) Power-leveling is monotonous, and can wear out one's desire to log on.
2) They try to remove themselves from PK, which reduces options for others.
3) If they don't see a group, they log off because they don't perceive anything to do. Even if leveling was first among other tasks (exploration, raiding, gathering items, PK stuff, etc.), they'd likely hang around, while groupmates might pop up.

(A compounding problem is that melee types are also desirable groupmates, so random low-level mage wants to power-rank but is wanted the least.)

My inclination is that the mid-level mechanical side of the game would be more interesting if:

1) Melee classes 'matured' slower. My bias is that Dual Wield is a sensible target here.
2) The 7-9 classes I mentioned get upgrades in the lower ranks. I think we've come part of the way-- low-rank shifter is a lot better, the newer Spellcraft is kinder to midbies, more midbie-ish wands and other devices exist, transmuters are more viable early, unempowered people have some punch that lasts into the 20s at least, etc.

Both of the above ripple outwards, of course. If you beef up all the mages/etc., PvE (*) gets easier, and if you're not careful you end up skewing the hero ranks as well. Conversely, as you slow down melee types, PvE gets a little harder, although other classes look more attractive as groupmates.

It's not an easy problem, but I can say that the majority (but not all) of the staff I've run this past lean towards some kind of action being good for the game. In particular, it would be nice to be able to tell new players "Play whatever seems the most fun for you." without having to add "Although you might find it a good bit harder." You see a lot of people on the New Player forum with the mindset "I play necromancers.", and telling them "Don't, for now." rarely goes over well.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

(*): Player vs. Environment-- ranking, exploring, gathering items and money, etc. Things you could do if you were the only person on.

  

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HOT Locked TopicRandom topic of discussion: Midlevels [View all] , Daevryn, Tue 18-May-10 08:27 PM
Reply Thread locked for sprawl. Please start sub-topics. (n/..., Valguarnera, 20-May-10 05:37 AM, #177
Reply Low level limited badassery items., Straklaw, 18-May-10 05:35 PM, #162
Reply Just a thought:, Marcus_, 17-May-10 12:43 PM, #154
Reply RE: Just a thought:, Daevryn, 17-May-10 02:09 PM, #163
     Reply I actually like Marcus' idea., sleepy, 17-May-10 02:42 PM, #155
     Reply Hello from Hollywood., Pro, 18-May-10 01:31 AM, #156
     Reply RE: Hello from Hollywood., Fjarn, 19-May-10 10:08 AM, #166
          Reply RE: Hello from Hollywood., sorlag (Anonymous), 19-May-10 10:23 AM, #168
               Reply Definitely, Valkenar, 19-May-10 10:35 AM, #169
               Reply RE: Hello from Hollywood., Isildur, 19-May-10 12:38 PM, #170
                    Reply RE: Hello from Hollywood., Valkenar, 19-May-10 12:56 PM, #171
                    Reply RE: Hello from Hollywood., Isildur, 19-May-10 01:25 PM, #172
                         Reply Meh, Valkenar, 19-May-10 03:03 PM, #173
                              Reply RE: Meh, Isildur, 19-May-10 03:09 PM, #174
                    Reply RE: Hello from Hollywood., sorlag (Anonymous), 19-May-10 03:11 PM, #175
     Reply RE: Just a thought:, ORB, 18-May-10 08:37 AM, #157
     Reply As a total train whore, Valkenar, 18-May-10 09:29 AM, #158
     Reply Cosign., Dervish, 18-May-10 11:13 AM, #160
     Reply RE: As a total train whore, Isildur, 18-May-10 04:10 PM, #161
          Reply Con trains, Valkenar, 19-May-10 08:00 AM, #165
     Reply RE: Just a thought:, Hutto, 18-May-10 10:57 AM, #159
     Reply RE: Just a thought:, Fjarn, 19-May-10 10:12 AM, #167
          Reply Maybe, Valkenar, 19-May-10 08:34 PM, #176
     Reply Using Marcus' idea but, Abernyte, 19-May-10 06:19 AM, #164
Reply Now that this has cooked for a while, Mekantos, 06-May-10 12:51 PM, #144
Reply RE: Now that this has cooked for a while, Daevryn, 06-May-10 12:53 PM, #145
     Reply FYI, this is up on Announcements now (n/t), Daevryn, 12-May-10 02:27 PM, #153
Reply An imm question related to this topic, Habbs, 04-May-10 01:06 PM, #138
Reply Mostly no:, Daevryn, 04-May-10 01:26 PM, #139
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Straklaw, 26-Apr-10 04:00 AM, #136
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Tyrjal, 25-Apr-10 07:13 PM, #135
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Tsunami, 24-Apr-10 12:30 PM, #132
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Doge, 23-Apr-10 09:49 PM, #130
Reply There used to be no xp cap., trewyn, 23-Apr-10 10:55 PM, #131
     Reply THE XP DYING PENALTY PLEASE, dribbit, 24-Apr-10 08:49 PM, #133
     Reply If you can't find your way out of a strange area, quaff..., DurNominator, 24-Apr-10 11:41 PM, #134
     Reply RE: There used to be no xp cap., Doge, 26-Apr-10 02:23 PM, #137
          Reply But the good thing about seeing -34% tnl, Pendragon_Surtr, 06-May-10 03:19 AM, #141
Reply For me, there is always a tickle in the back of my head..., Habbs, 23-Apr-10 11:48 AM, #129
Reply Adjust XP penalties, adjust ranking areas, adjust where, Amortis, 22-Apr-10 09:52 AM, #125
Reply re: expanded where, Quixotic, 22-Apr-10 12:34 PM, #127
Reply Spell Power Vs. Enhanced Damage, Seilclavin, 20-Apr-10 09:52 AM, #115
Reply RE: Gear-based Spell Idea, Quixotic, 20-Apr-10 11:52 AM, #119
Reply RE: Gear-based Spell Idea, Daevryn, 20-Apr-10 12:23 PM, #120
     Reply You overlooked, Quixotic, 20-Apr-10 12:35 PM, #121
     Reply RE: Gear-based Spell Idea, The Heretic, 07-May-10 09:21 AM, #146
Reply Best way to equalize mages and melee, Doof, 21-Apr-10 11:55 AM, #124
     Reply RE: Best way to equalize mages and melee, wjdenny, 05-May-10 02:16 PM, #140
Reply I haven't read the rest of the posts, but I like mid le..., Cointreau, 20-Apr-10 03:42 AM, #109
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Asthiss, 20-Apr-10 02:40 AM, #108
Reply I disagree., Eskelian, 20-Apr-10 09:14 AM, #113
     Reply RE: I disagree., Asthiss, 21-Apr-10 02:18 AM, #123
Reply RE: My Experience, Tac, 19-Apr-10 07:50 PM, #102
Reply Actually I do have one suggestion...., Tac, 19-Apr-10 08:00 PM, #103
Reply I like these suggestions a lot., ibuki, 20-Apr-10 05:11 AM, #111
Reply Another random thought.... re: scrolls, Tac, 20-Apr-10 02:56 PM, #122
Reply My opinion re: class balance at mid-levels:, Valguarnera, 19-Apr-10 06:58 PM #99
Reply Good post., Zephon, 19-Apr-10 09:22 PM, #105
Reply I pretty much agree with all of this, Drag0nSt0rm, 19-Apr-10 10:51 PM, #106
Reply Shout-out to the IMM staff within., TheLastMohican, 19-Apr-10 11:03 PM, #107
Reply These are great observations. nt, GinGa, 20-Apr-10 03:47 AM, #110
Reply RE: My opinion re: class balance at mid-levels:, Cerunnir, 20-Apr-10 08:11 AM, #112
     Reply Not to me, trewyn, 20-Apr-10 09:13 AM, #114
          Reply RE: Not to me, Daevryn, 20-Apr-10 09:55 AM, #116
          Reply She did on Dio's., Dervish, 20-Apr-10 10:41 AM, #118
          Reply RE: Not to me, Cerunnir, 20-Apr-10 10:22 AM, #117
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, GrahamC, 19-Apr-10 05:50 PM, #93
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, laxman, 19-Apr-10 06:16 PM, #96
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Isildur, 19-Apr-10 05:37 PM, #91
Reply do it once do it twice, laxman, 19-Apr-10 06:12 PM, #95
     Reply Its the luck factor..., Elerosse, 19-Apr-10 06:29 PM, #97
Reply Perception is a killer, laxman, 19-Apr-10 04:41 PM, #84
Reply Holy crap Mulshine, I totally agree with you for once!, TheLastMohican, 19-Apr-10 04:43 PM, #85
Reply RE: Perception is a killer, Eskelian, 19-Apr-10 05:34 PM, #90
Reply Some thoughts on making low/mid level pk better., Marcus_, 19-Apr-10 04:10 PM, #76
Reply RE: Some thoughts on making low/mid level pk better., Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 04:13 PM, #77
Reply RE: Equipment, vargal, 19-Apr-10 04:23 PM, #79
Reply I disagree on mage/melee, laxman, 19-Apr-10 04:23 PM, #80
     Reply I agree with this., sorlag (Anonymous), 19-Apr-10 04:54 PM, #86
     Reply RE: I disagree on mage/melee, Marcus_, 19-Apr-10 05:09 PM, #88
          Reply again when did you see one try, laxman, 19-Apr-10 06:07 PM, #94
               Reply RE: again when did you see one try, Marcus_, 19-Apr-10 06:33 PM, #98
Reply A batch of thoughts, Mekantos, 19-Apr-10 03:54 PM, #70
Reply Two points: cabal imbalance and shiny addictions, Vortex Magus, 19-Apr-10 03:41 PM, #69
Reply RE: Two points: cabal imbalance and shiny addictions, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 04:08 PM, #74
Reply Damage scaling, Con gains, and skills, Valkenar, 19-Apr-10 02:15 PM, #55
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Eskelian, 19-Apr-10 01:01 PM, #37
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 01:09 PM, #42
     Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, sorlag (Anonymous), 19-Apr-10 01:13 PM, #43
     Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 01:19 PM, #47
     Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, sorlag (Anonymous), 19-Apr-10 01:33 PM, #50
     Reply Bards certainly are weak, thendrell, 19-Apr-10 02:26 PM, #60
     Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Hutto, 19-Apr-10 01:23 PM, #48
     Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 01:28 PM, #49
          Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Hutto, 19-Apr-10 01:42 PM, #52
               Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 02:12 PM, #58
     Reply Here we go, Dervish, 19-Apr-10 01:46 PM, #53
     Reply RE: Here we go, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 02:07 PM, #56
          Reply Thoughts + ideas., Cerunnir, 19-Apr-10 03:04 PM, #59
               Reply Cosign. I'd love to see some logs of PBFs, Nep nt, Dervish, 19-Apr-10 02:31 PM, #61
               Reply RE: Cosign. I'd love to see some logs of PBFs, Nep nt, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 02:54 PM, #63
                    Reply I cant resist to quote you, Dervish, 19-Apr-10 03:01 PM, #65
                         Reply RE: I cant resist to quote you, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 03:21 PM, #67
                              Reply Tell their names at least? nt, Dervish, 19-Apr-10 04:18 PM, #78
                                   Reply RE: Tell their names at least? nt, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 04:28 PM, #82
                                   Reply I beat down people with my four path invoker..., TheLastMohican, 19-Apr-10 04:28 PM, #83
                                        Reply Well, Dervish, 19-Apr-10 04:59 PM, #87
                                             Reply RE: Well, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 07:10 PM, #100
               Reply RE: Here we go, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 02:54 PM, #62
                    Reply RE: Here we go, Cerunnir, 19-Apr-10 03:16 PM, #66
                    Reply RE: Here we go, Mekantos, 19-Apr-10 03:56 PM, #72
                         Reply RE: Here we go, Dervish, 19-Apr-10 05:12 PM, #89
                              Reply Urden, Jahfenar, Ilrahsek, Ikanu., Mekantos, 19-Apr-10 05:39 PM, #92
     Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Eskelian, 19-Apr-10 02:17 PM, #54
Reply Things that would make me stay in the mid levels, Drag0nSt0rm, 19-Apr-10 12:55 PM, #35
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Beroxxus, 19-Apr-10 12:54 PM, #34
Reply Give out Cabal Rewards Sooner, trewyn, 19-Apr-10 12:48 PM, #31
Reply Cosign on first and last suggestions nt, Dervish, 19-Apr-10 12:51 PM, #33
Reply I agree with all of these ideas. 110% nt, Drag0nSt0rm, 19-Apr-10 12:57 PM, #36
Reply RE: Give out Cabal Rewards Sooner, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 01:05 PM, #40
Reply Explore early and move is never a problem., thendrell, 19-Apr-10 01:14 PM, #44
Reply Except, Dervish, 19-Apr-10 01:40 PM, #51
Reply RE: Give out Cabal Rewards Sooner, Mekantos, 19-Apr-10 01:15 PM, #45
Reply RE: Give out Cabal Rewards Sooner, GrahamC, 19-Apr-10 02:55 PM, #64
     Reply RE: Give out Cabal Rewards Sooner, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 03:24 PM, #68
          Reply <== is king of that., trewyn, 19-Apr-10 07:32 PM, #101
               Reply Ragers do get ####ed. But that's part of being a rager..., TheLastMohican, 19-Apr-10 09:07 PM, #104
Reply RE: movement regen, Zulghinlour, 19-Apr-10 03:59 PM, #73
     Reply RE: movement regen, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 04:09 PM, #75
     Reply RE: movement regen, Marcus_, 19-Apr-10 04:28 PM, #81
     Reply RE: movement regen, Isildur, 14-May-10 11:29 AM, #151
     Reply RE: movement regen, Hutto, 13-May-10 05:00 PM, #147
          Reply RE: movement regen, Isildur, 14-May-10 11:19 AM, #150
Reply This isn't a possitive but..., Pro, 19-Apr-10 11:58 AM, #22
Reply I would say my biggest mechanical dislike in the game i..., Pro, 19-Apr-10 12:01 PM, #23
     Reply RE: I would say my biggest mechanical dislike in the ga..., sorlag (Anonymous), 19-Apr-10 01:17 PM, #46
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, thendrell, 19-Apr-10 11:58 AM, #21
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 12:31 PM, #29
     Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, sorlag (Anonymous), 19-Apr-10 01:06 PM, #41
     Reply Damn your logic., thendrell, 19-Apr-10 02:07 PM, #57
     Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Gryshilniar, 06-May-10 12:09 PM, #142
          Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Daevryn, 06-May-10 12:50 PM, #143
               Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, A2, 13-May-10 11:45 PM, #148
                    Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Daevryn, 14-May-10 09:00 AM, #149
                         Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, A2, 14-May-10 11:33 AM, #152
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, TJHuron, 19-Apr-10 11:49 AM, #20
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 12:28 PM, #27
     Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, TJHuron, 19-Apr-10 01:03 PM, #39
Reply Ideas, Quixotic, 19-Apr-10 11:18 AM, #12
Reply RE: Ideas, sorlag (Anonymous), 19-Apr-10 11:28 AM, #16
Reply RE: Heralds, Quixotic, 19-Apr-10 12:22 PM, #25
     Reply RE: Heralds, sorlag (Anonymous), 19-Apr-10 12:49 PM, #32
          Reply RE: Heralds, thendrell, 19-Apr-10 03:53 PM, #71
Reply RE: Ideas, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 11:31 AM, #17
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Hutto, 19-Apr-10 11:08 AM, #10
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Hutto, 19-Apr-10 11:42 AM, #13
     Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Hutto, 22-Apr-10 10:10 AM, #126
          Reply Con Loss., Pro, 22-Apr-10 01:57 PM, #128
Reply Off the cuff., Dallevian, 19-Apr-10 10:55 AM, #8
Reply Last thing would be great to help newbies nt, Dervish, 19-Apr-10 11:27 AM, #15
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, ORB, 19-Apr-10 10:48 AM, #7
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 10:56 AM, #9
     Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, sorlag (Anonymous), 19-Apr-10 11:16 AM, #11
          Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 11:26 AM, #14
               Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, sorlag (Anonymous), 19-Apr-10 11:37 AM, #18
               Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 12:22 PM, #24
                    Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, sorlag (Anonymous), 19-Apr-10 01:00 PM, #38
               Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Dervish, 19-Apr-10 11:43 AM, #19
                    Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 12:26 PM, #26
                         Reply Yes, I agree with you. I just pointed out two cases I e..., Dervish, 19-Apr-10 12:29 PM, #28
                              Reply Fair enough n/t, Daevryn, 19-Apr-10 12:33 PM, #30
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, sorlag (Anonymous), 19-Apr-10 10:30 AM, #3
Reply Nothing., Dervish, 19-Apr-10 10:30 AM, #2
Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, 34-inside, 19-Apr-10 10:20 AM, #1
     Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, sorlag (Anonymous), 19-Apr-10 10:34 AM, #4
          Reply Dunno, I never had big problems finding a group, Dervish, 19-Apr-10 10:38 AM, #5
          Reply RE: Random topic of discussion: Midlevels, 34-inside, 19-Apr-10 10:39 AM, #6
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