There's one very big factor that you're obviously unaware of. Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I have read some of your arguments lower on this thread.

Assassins lean towards the city. They're descended from thieves, which are also city-based. Wood-elves are... woodsy based. Inherent conflict.

Splntrd

sorry I even brought it up, I still love the game and whatnot like I said I was just expressing my thoughts and from what I can tell I am a complete newbie dumbass that knows nothing about right and wrong. Not trying to be all offensive or defensive (how ever you look at it) I just plain give up, again though I thank everybody for their arguements.

Peace out,
Chad/Tyin/Erebili

I know you all have your set in stone things about the game and I really love the game either way (KEEP UP THE GREAT WORKS IMMS ) I just had a rambling thought and noone really agrees with me oh well a wood-elfs assassin would happen in my fantasy world but not here of course, thank you all for your time reading and replies and hopefully I will see you in the fields!!!!!

Peace out,
Chad/Tyin/Erebili

Within the context of CF, assassins are heavily tied to the cities. They can hide in the woods, but somewhat ineffectively. They are designed to work within cities and streets. If the help file for assassins needs to be changed to reflect that, then request that change to the help file.

But about your idea, I think wood-elves are just a bit too rooted in the ways of the wild (EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE A CITY!!) to really take on the art of assassination. It just doesn't seem very...wood-elfy.

" Instead of following the pure morality of the high-elves, the wood-elves have become concerned with balance, with the cycles of nature, the fragility of life, the inevitability of death. Wood-elves prefer nature over magic and generally find themselves feeling out of place in cities and towns." as taken from right here on the official read it carefully and ask yourself what part would make them not acceptable assassins? Hell I will even break it up and explain how so in groups.

~~~ "Instead of following the pure morality of the high-elves," thus meaning they wood-elves also do not have that higher sense of "holler than thou" attititude, and to me that means they are not so pickish as to how they kill their foes either by a code of honor or hidding in the shadows.

~~~ "wood-elves have become concerned with balance," Assassins are a very nice class to be "concerned with balance" for you can very easily (solo or gank, your pick) be a threat to either lightwalkers of evildoers. Well mabye not VERY easily but with a little prep work and game knowledge they could handle themselves against just about all classes. Would someone like a wood-elf for example want to be trained in a proffesion that could switch from light to dark or vise versa rather quickly and easily, I know I sure would.

~~~ "with the cycles of nature, the fragility of life, the inevitability of death." and from the assassin end "Their knowledge of pressure points and critical strikes makes them deadly foes with and without weapons." I mean those lines are alomst meant for each other!! If anyone knows anything about martial arts would know that to find ones presure points is to find the weakness or the "fragility" of the body and mind and with the critical strikes to the assassinate are just more paths (indirect and direct) paths to death again the two are ment for each other. As far as the cycles of nature other than the life and death end would be with the hunting down of one's foe/prey, stalking them to the point most profitable to the predator, and if that is not enought look at most of the names of the skills/kicks after and with some reasoning of one of natures most prodominate forces Animals!!

~~~ "Wood-elves prefer nature over magic and generally find themselves feeling out of place in cities and towns." again from the assassin end of it "Over the centuries, though, much has been lost. Assassins of today retain their deadly strikes and kicks, but any semblance of the black magic of their ancestors is long forgotten."
Again couldnt be more perfect for each other, other than that of warriors (which wood-elves can be) I feel that assassins are more so self-reliant than that of any other class, using ones self body and mind to overcome all odds what could be more natural and non nature harming can you get?? really if I would have to explain in more depth I fear I would bore you all to death with my endless rambling.

~~~ Well with that I shall end this little session with hope that you would like to retaliate with whatever answers I have given here, please feel free to do so I will not get offended in anyway nor will I lash out at you in anyway, as I hope you will not be offended by the claims I am making against you.


~~~ Now as far as the Minos become AP's that I really cannot see for one simple fact (as taken from out very own official help file again "Their bovine mouths make it difficult for them to speak the Common Tongue" with that being said I cant see them able to form the words correctly to cast the AP spells upon another without fumbling the words at least with them being able to be shamans (unless I am mistaken) they only nod their heads when they COMMUNE their spells rather then trying to CAST their spells if they were a said AP or any other mage for that matter. And further more why would someone want to go through the game having a mage as stupid as a mino is beyond me, hell I have a tough time with people not minding how dumb any of the giants!!


P.S. please post any arguement of what I had to say, I really do like getting arguement about some thing as this and really have no problem being proved wrong.


Peace Out!!!
Chad

Apart from game-balance wise, which I think is an important point against it, I'd say...

If you were an assassin, where would you be working? You'd be working in civilised places, presumably. That's where your targets would be.

If it really is a game-balance issue then so be it I am not trying to totally question or go up against the IMMs on the way they want the game, hell I am still going to play either way

Second part now look at RL matters that would take into effect here on CF as well. Wood-elfs even without being one or the Old Sylvans or Outlanders prefer the wilderness over the city, yes but to either preserve that way of life or take all actions against the upbringing of civilization one sometimes have to travel upon what they are against or protecting from becoming. With that being said Wood-elfs can become warriors, healers, druids and rangers basically dividing them up you are looking at warriors being on the offensive end of things, and the rangers/druids are really the defensive end with the healers being just the aid or the support end. Because really ranger/druids yes fine classes indeed can really only flourish within the wilds thus leaving them there to defend against the rise or wrong doing of civilization and the warriors would thrive on either end but more so going into the cities and roads being the offensive end of an attack against such matters. So would not the wood-elves still being intellegent much like their kin of the elves would want to learn another such class to send to the front lines of battle right into the heart of the enimies so why not assassins ones (as I said before) a self-reliant class that can hold its ground rather effectively against either good or evil thus bringing the balance issue back into effect.

Another end of that arguement really is look at all the skills of an assassin or warrior neither really have any skill that are strickly civilized or wilderness based othere than that of the assassins ability to hide in civilized and woodland areas. But really not only civilized areas but as well as roads that all classes/races and such have to cross at one point or another through out a characters time in Thera, so if the wood-elf really cannot enter a town/city then they could sure as hell sit rather on the road leading to their precious wood lands in order to protect it before the defilers even have a chance to enter, no?


Peace out!!
Chad/Tyin/Erebili

> " Instead of following the pure morality of the high-elves,
>the wood-elves have become concerned with balance, with the
>cycles of nature, the fragility of life, the inevitability of
>death. Wood-elves prefer nature over magic and generally find
>themselves feeling out of place in cities and towns." as
>taken from right here on the official read it carefully and
>ask yourself what part would make them not acceptable
>assassins? Hell I will even break it up and explain how so in
>groups.


I don't think the quote there is intended to mean that wood-elves are zen master ninjas who live and breathe deathfullness. I think it means they are wise in the ways of nature and respect life, but don't think of death as a bad thing, just as something that happens to everyone.


>~~~ "Instead of following the pure morality of the
>high-elves," thus meaning they wood-elves also do not have
>that higher sense of "holler than thou" attititude, and to me
>that means they are not so pickish as to how they kill their
>foes either by a code of honor or hidding in the shadows.


It doesn't mean they are murdering bastards either. I think it means that they base their judgements regarding 'right' and 'wrong' on different things than high-elves (or dark-elves) do. Maybe they don't care about honor, although that's up to the individual, but I think they'd be striking from the trees rather than the shadows, like rangers, not assassins. Again, we're trying to stay wood-elfy.


>~~~ "wood-elves have become concerned with balance,"
>Assassins are a very nice class to be "concerned with balance"
>for you can very easily (solo or gank, your pick) be a threat
>to either lightwalkers of evildoers. Well mabye not VERY
>easily but with a little prep work and game knowledge they
>could handle themselves against just about all classes. Would
>someone like a wood-elf for example want to be trained in a
>proffesion that could switch from light to dark or vise versa
>rather quickly and easily, I know I sure would.


Many classes (barring paladins, necromancers, anti-paladins, and to some extent, shamans) can be great at being "concerned with balance." This really holds no weight. Assassins are no better at it, and make no more sense doing it than the others. They just work differently.


>~~~ "with the cycles of nature, the fragility of life, the
>inevitability of death." and from the assassin end "Their
>knowledge of pressure points and critical strikes makes them
>deadly foes with and without weapons." I mean those lines are
>alomst meant for each other!! If anyone knows anything about
>martial arts would know that to find ones presure points is to
>find the weakness or the "fragility" of the body and mind and
>with the critical strikes to the assassinate are just more
>paths (indirect and direct) paths to death again the two are
>ment for each other.


You're really reaching here. I don't see how "being concerned with the cycles of nature, the fragility of life, and the inevitability of death" translate to "kung fu master". So what?! They are wise in the ways of trees n' stuff! You're taking the words from the helpfile waaaay too literally without delving into the depth behind them.


>the life and death end would be with the hunting down of one's
>foe/prey, stalking them to the point most profitable to the
>predator.


Yeah, that sounds like a ranger to me too. Oh wait!


>~~~ "Wood-elves prefer nature over magic and generally find
>themselves feeling out of place in cities and towns." again
>from the assassin end of it "Over the centuries, though, much
>has been lost. Assassins of today retain their deadly strikes
>and kicks, but any semblance of the black magic of their
>ancestors is long forgotten."
>Again couldnt be more perfect for each other,


Eh...so black magic = civilization? If we're talking about the Empire, sure, but that's ONE imperialistic power, and black magic is only one aspect of it. Streeeeeeettttttcccchhhhhhhh.


>~~~ Well with that I shall end this little session with hope
>that you would like to retaliate with whatever answers I have
>given here, please feel free to do so I will not get offended
>in anyway nor will I lash out at you in anyway, as I hope you
>will not be offended by the claims I am making against you.


I'm not lashing out at you at all, but I really think you want to play this race/class combo and are looking for ANYTHING to which you might be able to justify it happening. It's not gonna happen, dude. But hey, you can always try roleplaying a wood-elf warrior turned assassin!

Okay first off this is really not about me just wanting to play a class so bad I am trying anything to make it work, its just that to me and in my own world I see that wood-elfs and assassins could go together like a horse and carriage, love and marriage, love and marriage!!! (sorry I am rather stupid sometimes)

> " Instead of following the pure morality of the high-elves,
>the wood-elves have become concerned with balance, with the
>cycles of nature, the fragility of life, the inevitability of
>death. Wood-elves prefer nature over magic and generally find
>themselves feeling out of place in cities and towns." as
>taken from right here on the official read it carefully and
>ask yourself what part would make them not acceptable
>assassins? Hell I will even break it up and explain how so in
>groups.


>>I don't think the quote there is intended to mean that wood-elves >>are zen master ninjas who live and breathe deathfullness. I think >>it means they are wise in the ways of nature and respect life, but >>don't think of death as a bad thing, just as something that >>happens to everyone.

Well this is where I disagree and see your point none the less, but that was not my intent by what I said I am just simply saying that yes being wise in nature and respecting life they chose to protect it as well. I mean this is a PK/RP mud and if there was a way you could play without having to kill a single thing or person then I would see the end of your arguement but everyone has to have a reason for killing another thing/person within this mud to make sense so why not have wood-elfs seeing that there is no way around it choose a more natural path of killing someone thus with a swift exicution or poison corsing through their viens, ect, ect, ????

>~~~ "Instead of following the pure morality of the
>high-elves," thus meaning they wood-elves also do not have
>that higher sense of "holler than thou" attititude, and to me
>that means they are not so pickish as to how they kill their
>foes either by a code of honor or hidding in the shadows.


>>It doesn't mean they are murdering bastards either. I think it >>means that they base their judgements regarding 'right' >>and 'wrong' on different things than high-elves (or dark-elves) >>do. Maybe they don't care about honor, although that's up to the >>individual, but I think they'd be striking from the trees rather >>than the shadows, like rangers, not assassins. Again, we're trying >>to stay wood-elfy.

Really again I dont see any way to have be able to gain advancement through this mud without killing someone/something so basically being neutral is really being liberall baseing their judgements on the time being, how a person feels at the time whether being "right" or "wrong". EX: 'hmmm I see lots of evil about tonight and we cant have dark without light so at thus I am killing more evil defilers than those of the light.' And the striking from the trees part you mention, well like I said in the post below is that a ranger/druid is more so a defender and the warrior/assassin would be more so of the offensive side, to me it cant get any simpler than that of one who is a "ZEN MASTER" for they focus all of one energies to one, yes ONE main focus and for a wood-elf of course would be that of nature.


>>Many classes (barring paladins, necromancers, anti-paladins, and >>to some extent, shamans) can be great at being "concerned with >>balance." This really holds no weight. Assassins are no better at >>it, and make no more sense doing it than the others. They just >>work differently.

Oh yes I agree totally here but if you really look at all the classes which ones would really fit for one who wishes for simpler things in life such as returning to nature and really self for a granduer life? Umm again in my own world and from what I read into the helpfiles assassin would work perfectly.


>~~~ "with the cycles of nature, the fragility of life, the
>inevitability of death." and from the assassin end "Their
>knowledge of pressure points and critical strikes makes them
>deadly foes with and without weapons." I mean those lines are
>alomst meant for each other!! If anyone knows anything about
>martial arts would know that to find ones presure points is to
>find the weakness or the "fragility" of the body and mind and
>with the critical strikes to the assassinate are just more
>paths (indirect and direct) paths to death again the two are
>ment for each other.

>>You're really reaching here. I don't see how "being concerned with >>the cycles of nature, the fragility of life, and the inevitability >>of death" translate to "kung fu master". So what?! They are wise >in the ways of trees n' stuff! You're taking the words from the >>helpfile waaaay too literally without delving into the depth >>behind them.

Actually in turn (sorry) you are being the one to take things too literally. Yes they are as you said supposed to be wise in the ways of trees n' stuff but for a wood-elves to remove themselves from high-elves to basically lead a simplier life to dwell deeper into the ways of nature, how would they not want to learn an art that lets them return the actions of a said defiler back on the the defiler, let least the person learns a very reoccurring reminder that nature holds is that what goes around, comes around. Really assassins are to me the porcupines of a physical nature that does not involve any magic what so ever.


>the life and death end would be with the hunting down of one's
>foe/prey, stalking them to the point most profitable to the
>predator.


>>Yeah, that sounds like a ranger to me too. Oh wait!

Like I stated before rangers/druids better really in a sense for HOMELAND SECURITY and warriors/assassins for the FRONTLINE (not trying to get into the us politics here please)


>~~~ "Wood-elves prefer nature over magic and generally find
>themselves feeling out of place in cities and towns." again
>from the assassin end of it "Over the centuries, though, much
>has been lost. Assassins of today retain their deadly strikes
>and kicks, but any semblance of the black magic of their
>ancestors is long forgotten."
>Again couldnt be more perfect for each other,


>>Eh...so black magic = civilization? If we're talking about the >>Empire, sure, but that's ONE imperialistic power, and black magic >>is only one aspect of it. Streeeeeeettttttcccchhhhhhhh.


Again way to literial I just was simply saying wood-elve prefer not to really have to use magic much themselves, no problem wearing,wielding it/ quaffing it/ but in a sense there mind would rather not have to be bothered by learning the skill of magic, and before you begin communes are much different than that of magic.


>>I'm not lashing out at you at all, but I really think you want to >>play this race/class combo and are looking for ANYTHING to which >>you might be able to justify it happening. It's not gonna happen, >>dude. But hey, you can always try roleplaying a wood-elf warrior >>turned assassin!

Again I am not meaning to get this changed just so I can play it, I am just wondering the meaning behind why wood-elves cannot learn the assassin class when to myself I see that it makes sense even with all the helpfile that the IMMs have about. Really all it would take is that an IMM would have to say " I dont like the idea, and why should I waste my time codeing that?" and I would surely shut the heck up it is not my game to alter. I just was curious as well.

P.S. and thank you for your arguements I really am not trying to lash nor become of a nuessance so if you feel that I should just shut up about it I will. Thank you for your time.

I tried to roleplay a wood-elf turned assassin a long time ago. I went with a warrior and spec'd in hand-to-hand. Nothing ever panned out with it, though.

I didn't do it for the reasons you want to, though. I honestly do not see wood-elves as being assassins. The assassin class has always been closely linked with civilization. It's a refined art that happened in cities, not some jungle. In the wilds it's a neccessity to hunt, defend yourself, and protect your territory. I see that as being covered by the inclusion of druids and rangers as class options.

Because you want this to happen, you're going to look at it from a positive perspective, which is just fine, but be prepared to be disappointed. I'm not going to post anything else about it. I think that if you still aren't satisfied by what's been posted in response to your ideas, maybe an Imm should field it.

Well I thank you for your said arguements. And on the flip side I personally do see wood-elves being assassins for I see the fact that CF ties assassins to the cities (RL martial arts did come from the tribes/clans from outside the cities in asian countrys *for the most part* but then again this is not RL this is CF) but even so I just see that the wood-elves will protect their homeland at most is not all cost and thus learnig the arts of an enemy to better defend and use against the said foe. But either way we all are entitled to our opinions yes so I am not saying I am right and you are wrong for this (CF) is a fantasty world and really we all have our own imaginations.


Also as I said before I am not, I repeat I AM NOT posting this just to see a change I am just stating how I see things and the helpfiles included and wondering just why wood-elves cannot learn an art of their foes. I just see if you have two warriors and one is a dagger spec and another is an axe spec and the dagger spec keeps getting pwned by the axe spec wouldnt a wise dagger spec want to learn a bit about axes and the skill of it to better defend against it? I will repeat I AM JUST STATEING HOW I PERCEIVE THINGS ON CF NOT REALLY TRYING TO CHANGE IT JUST BECAUSE I WANT THIS RACE/CLASS COMBO!!!! god knows I know too little about this game and other race/class combos to worry about a one that doesnt exsist.

Peace out,
Chad/Tyin/Erebili

(RL martial arts did come from the tribes/clans from outside the cities in asian countrys *for the most part* but then again this is not RL this is CF)


Site some sources on this? I did martial arts (Chinese Kenpo) for years, and it was my understanding that almost all styles were either developed for militaries or by families who were famous for their warriors. Also, certain groups of monks made contributions...but country bumpkins? Hmm...

okay here are but a few and remember look at how outlanders and such would view this, thus is the wood-elf is a true by the book wood-elf they would almost have to be an outlander or agree so to the strickness of it.


http://www.mastershin.com/orgintaekwondo.htm

http://www.kungchido.com/om.htm ~~~(good for showing how martial arts improved over the years just to basically stick it to the government)

http://www.mightywarriorministries.org/qaflyer.htm#Q2 ~~~(kind of funny for they ramble on about David and Mosses being skilled in the martial arts department, teheheheheh)

Basically you get the point by now I would hope, most forms or martial arts originally came to be to defeat the armies of such tyrranie, yes the militarys learned the art and thus people against the government had to develope new and excititing martial arts. I am sure you have a search engine as well and can find some of your own sites if these arent really sufficiant enough. And...........

Peace out,
Chad/Tyin/Erebili

Martial arts may have begun in the 'country' historically, but in Thera's history its deeply rooted in the dark 'ninja' class that once roamed Thera.

They were very much a city based guild, with dark magic, some kick ass abilities and were founded in the guilds by monks.

Nothing 'wild' about their appearance in the game I'm affraid.


Yhorian.

again as I have mentioned would the wood-elves one who wishes to fight for his homeland learn a art that is founded by such city dwellers? would they not want another class for them to not really just sit and defend the woodlands when entered but a class to seek out and destroy foes on foriegn soils?? I sure as hell would to me that would be a wise thought for the wood-elves.

Peace out,
Chad/Tyin/Erebili

nt

Foreign soils? Why? The wood-elf race is rather introverted and unsociable. They like their forests.

Splntrd

Did you even read what I said, or read your sources?

I said monks, nobles, and warriors (whether part of an army, in the process of forming one, or solo) were responsible for the development of martial arts. Your sources actually support everything I said (especially source #2). C'mon kid!

> " Instead of following the pure morality of the high-elves,
>the wood-elves have become concerned with balance, with the
>cycles of nature, the fragility of life, the inevitability of
>death. Wood-elves prefer nature over magic and generally find
>themselves feeling out of place in cities and towns." as
>taken from right here on the official read it carefully and
>ask yourself what part would make them not acceptable
>assassins? Hell I will even break it up and explain how so in
>groups.
>
>~~~ "Instead of following the pure morality of the
>high-elves," thus meaning they wood-elves also do not have
>that higher sense of "holler than thou" attititude, and to me
>that means they are not so pickish as to how they kill their
>foes either by a code of honor or hidding in the shadows.

That is a huge leap of faith to take there. To make it more clear look at it this way. Elves follow a proper living whereas wood-elves are linked a lot more to nature and the wildness of its ways. A proper living meaning things are done to a strict code regarding the way they live.
>
>~~~ "wood-elves have become concerned with balance,"
>Assassins are a very nice class to be "concerned with balance"
>for you can very easily (solo or gank, your pick) be a threat
>to either lightwalkers of evildoers. Well mabye not VERY
>easily but with a little prep work and game knowledge they
>could handle themselves against just about all classes. Would
>someone like a wood-elf for example want to be trained in a
>proffesion that could switch from light to dark or vise versa
>rather quickly and easily, I know I sure would.

Just because you can solo and can act according to that type of balance, that has nothing to do with the balance associated with a wood-elf. A wood-elf sees things from a natural standpoint, so they understand that there is life from death as a hunter sees its prey as a means of food...not just killing.

>
>~~~ "with the cycles of nature, the fragility of life, the
>inevitability of death." and from the assassin end "Their
>knowledge of pressure points and critical strikes makes them
>deadly foes with and without weapons." I mean those lines are
>alomst meant for each other!! If anyone knows anything about
>martial arts would know that to find ones presure points is to
>find the weakness or the "fragility" of the body and mind and
>with the critical strikes to the assassinate are just more
>paths (indirect and direct) paths to death again the two are
>ment for each other. As far as the cycles of nature other than
>the life and death end would be with the hunting down of one's
>foe/prey, stalking them to the point most profitable to the
>predator, and if that is not enought look at most of the names
>of the skills/kicks after and with some reasoning of one of
>natures most prodominate forces Animals!!

Those first two lines are so far apart that you really have to reaching for something that can't be reached. Ties to nature and pressure points have nothing to do with each other. A tie to nature would be understanding why moss grows on one side of a tree. A pressure point would be taught to you and practiced over and over until you get it right.
>
>~~~ "Wood-elves prefer nature over magic and generally find
>themselves feeling out of place in cities and towns." again
>from the assassin end of it "Over the centuries, though, much
>has been lost. Assassins of today retain their deadly strikes
>and kicks, but any semblance of the black magic of their
>ancestors is long forgotten."
>Again couldnt be more perfect for each other, other than that
>of warriors (which wood-elves can be) I feel that assassins
>are more so self-reliant than that of any other class, using
>ones self body and mind to overcome all odds what could be
>more natural and non nature harming can you get?? really if I
>would have to explain in more depth I fear I would bore you
>all to death with my endless rambling.

No, no no. Black magic and magic are two different things altogether. Black magic is delving into magic that goes against nature. Just because it has been lost to assassins does not mean that a wood-elf would forgive the past use of it. Prefering nature over magic means that they just prefer to live in the wilds than use the magic that the high-elves use.
>
>~~~ Well with that I shall end this little session with hope
>that you would like to retaliate with whatever answers I have
>given here, please feel free to do so I will not get offended
>in anyway nor will I lash out at you in anyway, as I hope you
>will not be offended by the claims I am making against you.

I am not offended by anything you have posted, regardless of how wrong it is.

perhaps this was brought up before a time to many and is a sensitive issue, or it is just plain a coding issue. Whatever that is fine I was just wondering, I love the wood-elf race for actually the many choices of RPing/roles/whatnot and from all the looking up I did they are second for the most dexy race. Thought it would be neat to have a wood-elf/assassin/outlander *shrugs* I leave the subject alone now.

Good and valid question

Well in my views I can see two main reasons one IC and one mechanics.

A wood elf assassin would see all but duo, nasty thing for game balance all in all.

And IC, woodelves are tied to the wild by birth, and the assassin class is tied to the civilization. Though an assassin can be a friend of the wild ofcourse, but of other reasons then the guild.

I am pretty sure there are many more reasons, but this is the ones that pop stright into mind when I think about woodelf assassin... I know I would try one if they were available

Alright I shall take a crack at this, and thank you for responding.

Now with the wood-elve being able to see all but duo, well I have never had a Hero wood-elf (mid 30s is the highest) but the acute vision never really seemed to work as well as I thought it would, unless my memory is skewed I could see the person camo'ed within the room but not on a "who" or "where" list. So with that really I dont think would be any different than that of a mage class with faerie fire, fog, ect.... Again I could be wrong with about this wood-elf acute vision thing because my last wood-elf was a ranger and I always had acute vision up.

And yes I hear the parts saying that wood-elves are tied to nature by birth but I dont see how an assassin is tied to civilization too much for that from the help file about assassins it seems to me that they are really that of martial arts/ninja/juudo/ect type warriors and if anyone knows anything about any of these arts you would know most actions of the fighter is returning actions of the attacker back unto the attacker. Much like that of a druid who uses communes: armor of thorns or Primodial vengeance lest the attacker be the blunt end of their own attacks with an assassin kot/kans would be more of the physical retaliation than of a commune or spell. Also think if you will on the end of a wood-elf perspective would they not wish to learn a class that really could be more SELF reliant upon themselves than that of a druid who depend more so on their deity? With the ability to trow, kick, kote, kans, backfist, etc would seem to me like skills a race of those who wish to be forest related a "back to nature" attitute a "death is unavoidable" view on life would love to learn to get back to depending on self.

P.S. I am not trying to nitpick your responses or yourself I am just stating my end of the arguement

Hehe nice answer, but still being able to see camo in the same room as you will give you the chance to mark the prey. You are allso not ambushable or anything which make you able to handle rangers pretty easy. To be able to see camo in the room you are are very potent, and can save your life in many cases. And as an assassin many rangers dont like you, think it stinks of civilization and what not, and in many cases they will be your enemy.

By saying assassins are somewhat tied to civilization I say this because the class is a typical guild who came because of civilization and to politics around this. When you mention ninja this is previous age and they are a kind of assassin aswell but not as tied to civilization as the assassin class is today.

like I said before I dont remember that much about the wood-elf acute vision like "skill" if you like. But even so seeing someone in a room is a lot like faerie fire and even assassins can find items/herbs/potions/whatnot to expose a person within the same room as themselves. But even if game balance plays into effect well if a IMM where to code wood-elves into the gameplay would it really be that much harder to have it so the wood-elf would lose one of its vision types?? Hell really if they would want to they could take away the acute type vision in the wood-elves claiming that thus upon delving into the arts of seeing those within shadows they lose their skill of looking further into the trees, OR something of the matter, would that not set the "game-balance" issues back into place?

Originally I was going to say that if needed the wood-elves would lose one of the special skills of seeing hidden/camo'ed/invis and I was going through them like so: Well really wood-elves should not lose the ability to see camo'ed for that is one thing that they are really known for and fighting for, and wood-elf assassins should really keep the ability to see the hidden for that is an art they are learning themselves, would be kind of dumb to learn the art of hidding oneself and not be able to see others hidden, So that leaves having a wood-elf assassin lose their hieghtened awareness because really that was just a perk for all assassins really
BUUUUUTTTTTTT just think how easily one can still see the invis anyways that is one "special sight" that can be easily exploited, so thus with that being said I would say have the wood-elves lose the ability to see the camoed for dwelling to deep into another art of seeing beyond the naked eye.

Peace out,
Chad/Tyin/Erebili <~~~~I really got to make more characters I am proud of

be able to hide so well in cities?

Just doesn't hang together for me.

The arguments against seem pretty strong to me, and it feels like you have your idea of a wood-elf assassin and it works for you, but that it doesn't really work for others. Think you might have to chalk this one up to a "never gonna get everyone to agree" thing.

and thus is why there are not wood-elf assassins already, just trying to state some of my points as to why and how it could work.

Again I shall bring up the Outlanders, from as far as I know they do welcome thieves and assassins so really why would they the "nature" guys as well be able to hide so well within the cities too???

Peace out,
Chad/Tyin/Erebili

> Again I shall bring up the Outlanders, from as far as I know
>they do welcome thieves and assassins so really why would they
>the "nature" guys as well be able to hide so well within the
>cities too???
Heh yea they do accept thieves and assassins but they do loose hide *wink*

For a couple of the other things you stated... Well very nice they can get faerie fire preps, but the higher level the harder it is... And even if they have faerie fire prep they are not by far close to be invuln to ambush as a woodelf allmost is... There are ways to get a good ambush but god damn its hard. An assassin with a prep will most likely be guaranteed to get atleast an ambush. And not to talk about all those camoed mobs which is around. Giving an assassin all types of sight is like giving them access to things they normally would not have.

I would actualy say it would be better mechanics wise giving elves access to the assassin class.