That or give their detect hidden limits, such as it only works at full effectiveness in the underdark and like Wood-Elf acute above ground.

I.E. No where above ground.

Detect hidden is without contest the best inherrent ability in the game. Hands down. Plus they have great stats and all the stuff Nepenthe listed. They're *THE* power gamer race. Duergar shamans/AP's are the single reason I refuse to play goodie hiding classes.

You're welcome to your opinion.

think that you had your priorities all wrong.

Duergar:
- Pro: Detect Hidden
- Con: Wrath, Searing Light, WhiteSteel

Storm:
- Pro: Size, Water breathing, Immune water, Resist physical, Resist Lightning
- Con: 500 xp

Come on Nep, admit that Storm's are grossly over-powered especially considering the 500exp penalty for storms isn't really an issue at hero since everyone 47 and up is in range anyway. Don't forget that a vulnerability to say Whitesteel and searing light is far, far worse than a vulnerability to say fire or lightning.

I continue to live and breathe in hope that one day storm giants will be brought back to reality.

Also Con: GOOD, low wis.

Seriously, you have no leg to stand on. Duergar are known as 'teh powergamer race' not storm giants.

You're just pissed because some people can put two and two together as to what class would make storm giants powerful. Whereas duergar stats and constant detect hidden make them powerful with absolutely most anything.

Duergar Pro: Evil. Resist magic, poison, disease. Underdark scanning. Awesome stats.

Storm Con: Good. Worst stats of any race. (My opinion. I've argued this in detail before. I'm not interested in doing so again right now.)

Don't get me wrong. I like storms and have played a lot of them. I like duergar and have played a lot of them, too. However, there are way more duergar running around kicking a lot more ass than there are storms running around kicking a lot of ass. I suggest to you this isn't utter chance.

nm

>Duergar Pro: Evil. Resist magic, poison, disease.
>Underdark scanning. Awesome stats.
>
>Storm Con: Good. Worst stats of any race. (My opinion.
>I've argued this in detail before. I'm not interested in
>doing so again right now.)
>
>Don't get me wrong. I like storms and have played a lot of
>them. I like duergar and have played a lot of them, too.
>However, there are way more duergar running around kicking a
>lot more ass than there are storms running around kicking a
>lot of ass. I suggest to you this isn't utter chance.

Biggest issue i have with duergar is that their two vulns are hit by some of the nastiest offensive spells/prayers in the game.

Sunray, which (as far as i'm aware) cannot be resisted (other than by generic dam resist) and Wrath (which can be) which is carried by a duergar killing machine.

I just guess my perception of this is that it's less balancing people but more just putting a bigger downer on playing things.

>Sunray, which (as far as i'm aware) cannot be resisted (other
>than by generic dam resist) and Wrath (which can be) which is
>carried by a duergar killing machine.

Druids are consistently the rarest class in the game. Empowered druids high enough to have sunray are even more rare. Sunray has restrictions it didn't some years ago. Honestly, if that's the only part of a light vuln that's scary, that's like being vuln to water shifters -- except water shifters are more common.

As far as paladins go, I don't know. It depends on what class you are and possibly what sub-class/specialization within that class, but I don't think I've ever seen paladins as being duergar killing machines. I've played both sides of that matchup dozens of times, and I never feel like I can't win from either.

>I just guess my perception of this is that it's less balancing
>people but more just putting a bigger downer on playing
>things.

Let me put it to you another way: If we'd taken detect hidden from duergar instead, would you be more or less happy?

I am actually kinda happy to see another vuln for duergars,
My problem with the whole agenda being,
Are there going to be MORE progged goodie only items that slaughter Duergars/Orcs/Firegiants/Dark-elves?
I mean there is
Tcar
Amatharye *however you spell it*
Heartseeker
Defiance
* I can think of others but those are the most popular*
Are we going to see another sick progged item specificly for paladins and others to run around two-three rounding Duergars and orcs?

I don't have issues with vulns just vulns being stacked with sickazz progged gear I can't do anything about but gang the bastard down and horde said item.

On a side note,
I'D love to see more items progged for hunting goodies.
Like a dark-elf equivilant to Amathrye and a duergar equivilent for hunting dwarves, and fire vs storm too...
Simply because goodies seem to get the spiffy end of the stick when it comes to good vs evil progged items.
I would love to see your input on this as I have my beliefs as to why you haven't populated more items fitting these descriptions but its alot easier to tell when its straight from the horses mouth and not speculation.

"Simply because goodies seem to get the spiffy end of the stick when it comes to good vs evil progged items."

Goodies tend to recieve the spiff end of the stick, as you put it, due to the fact that the over whelming majority of players play evil. This, combined with the fact that Team Evil has some of the most deathful and powerful race/class combos available, would be a pretty good reason in my book for Team Goodie to get stuff like Defiance and Amathylar.

Honestly, what on Team Goodie stacks up to a lich in a stand alone battle? Perhaps a multi-virtued prep whore of a paladin comes close, but you'd have to proove it to me.

Need I say more?

>Honestly, what on Team Goodie stacks up to a lich in a stand
>alone battle? Perhaps a multi-virtued prep whore of a paladin
>comes close, but you'd have to proove it to me.
>
>Need I say more?

I think that it has been said by the IMMstaff that Liches are not meant to have equals. Liches of CF are the architypal evil super-villan. This is why they have so much power potential, and why at the same time they are so rare.

In theory, it would take an architypal "good" character to take one down. Paladins, though more infrequent than other classes, are much more frequent than Liches*. I don't see why any class should be able to solo a lich when they (they=other classes)are so abundant.

* I don't think "infrequent/frequent" are the right words here, but I hope you get the jist

My general impression as Area Guy is that the high-end equipment skews towards evil, not the reverse. This was much more true when Hell was a more commonly visited area, but I don't exactly see evil-aligned heroes running around in red dragon gear these days. Check the Premium Battlefield for some specifics, and note how many of those can't be worn by good-aligned characters.

Also, I don't buy the "poor, poor evils" angle, because Thera's PC population skews evil. When we first started keeping track, it was typically 30% good, 35% neutral, 35% evil. Skewed, but nothing that couldn't be explained by evil's extra class option (necros and APs vs. paladins, who are rare because of empowerment) and multiple extra race options. Since then, our population has gotten significantly more skewed, not less. If more and more players are playing evil characters, that's a good sign that the incentives to be good (trustworthy groupmates, request, etc.) aren't enough to make up for the equipment, race/class choice, and greater RP latitude given to evil characters. Voralian City was designed specifically to address this skew.

I'd further make the argument that if storm giants and fire giants had the same stats/etc., and the only difference was one is good and the other is evil... that fire giants would be more powerful. Evil alignment allows you a great array of RP options that just aren't available to good-aligned characters. This is also why most alignment changes tend to go from good towards evil- it's much easier for a good-aligned character to "slip" than it is for an evil character's actions to earn them redemption.

Finally, feel free to search for text about making characters to run up a body count at low levels. I think you'll find "duergar (insert class)" to be a more than common suggestion. I'd even say it's the default suggestion.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Somebody joked that it was a duergar axe spec.

>I'd further make the argument that if storm giants and fire
>giants had the same stats/etc., and the only difference was
>one is good and the other is evil... that fire giants would be
>more powerful. Evil alignment allows you a great array of RP
>options that just aren't available to good-aligned characters.

I would also make the case that a majority of veteran power-PKers typically tend to play evils for this reason.

I would also make the case that a majority of veteran power-PKers typically tend to play evils for this reason.

Yup. And it's the sort of edge that people take for granted.

This whole thread is very reminiscent of when we moved a number of assassin skills to higher levels, because assassins were dominant in the teen ranks. A bunch of people cried over that as well, but:

1) Assassins are still a very strong PK option in the teen ranks.
2) The same people who cried about the assassin change continued to play assassins and win fights in the teen ranks.
3) Assassins are still one of our most-played classes.

The real complaint they were having was that it was fun (for them) to steamroll people with their teen-rank superpowered assassin guy. Unfortunately, this overlooks the very significant fact that it is not so fun to be steamrolled by someone else's teen-rank superpowered assassin guy.

Overall, the best solution for both parties is if each class (or race, in the duergar case) has an even chance to win in the general case. Player skill should be the deciding factor, not "who picked the good class". We're not quite there yet (*), but the game gets a little more tightly balanced each year.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

(*): Try playing a bloodifying mage at the low ranks. There are classes that can make a go of it (invoker and necromancer are the most commonly attempted options), but if you can pull that off, you can probably get bored piling up bodies with a warrior-ish class. (And a very skilled player's mage will probably still die in solo fights once in a while, whereas their warrior-type won't.)

I think you enjoy turning my thoughts against me,
I wasn't complaining that evils get the short end of the gear stick,
Merely that it seems that evils get the kinda broad spectrum nifty gear -while- goodies get specificly DESTROY evil gear
And I mean some SICK freakin destroy evil gear
I've been hammered By amatharys, defaniances, tcars, and other annoying progged slay evil gear.
But as a goodie, I wasn't really overly impressed with the array of nifty evil things
Theres a belt that gives your immune fire *shrug* Marans have that, and theres other non-evil only items that do similar *Like grant watershield*
Theres a nifty axe that doesn't weight much and soul drains for evils but it has its pile of drawbacks *Tcar Defiance amathyar etc...*
Its a tough draw ***DEV elemental damage? Or an item that sancs and heals... hmmm
Items that Teleport evils out of Combat, or items that immolate evils and can be used by anyone who has the know how to get them *heh I know of only ONE person who I won't mention*

Also I clearly remember being FOR the new material and not against it
Now if I see level 20 paladins running around with Defiance type Divine power sunmetal swords *Eyeroll* I'ma be sick to my stomach

I'm not so much as saying that evils need more progged items as
Goodies don't need more items that do uber sick damage to some random race, freakin ===OBLITS through 40% + damage redux
And don't tell me it was Isolated, cause I know better =D


PS I'm not being angry just constructivly pointing out that I'm not looking forward to having a new and constructive way to be tworounded by someone spamming strikeoffaith or wrath.

Merely that it seems that evils get the kinda broad spectrum nifty gear -while- goodies get specificly DESTROY evil gear

Of course that's the way it pans out. Evil isn't a team- evil characters end up fighting evil characters. They need broad-spectrum answers because they have broad-spectrum opponents.

Also, evil's goal isn't typically "destroy good". Evil's goal is typically "help myself, no matter what". Now, helping yourself without regard for consequences will eventually harm good/innocent types, but that isn't your goal. The items you're talking about reflect this.

Now if I see level 20 paladins running around with Defiance type Divine power sunmetal swords *Eyeroll* I'ma be sick to my stomach

Feel free to report any level 20 sunmetal divine power sword with Defiance-like abilities added to them. I'll get right on fixing those. To my knowledge, zero are out there.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

You saying that the new metal is being specificly implemented to make it easier for those low level chars to survive the Duergar onslaught?
Or am I correct in assuming this new metal is going to mean 30 new flavors of hell for duergars of all levels and classes?


Just making sure the horse is VERY dead, I hate it when stuff keeps twitching.
I always feel like I'm trying to masturbate with sandpaper when it comes to Question/Answer Valg time. But thanks for the answers even if they are rough edged you love us anyway. =P

Duergar are disproportionately dominating the high levels, too. Not that you asked.

nt

>Let me put it to you another way: If we'd taken detect hidden
>from duergar instead, would you be more or less happy?
>

Indifferent. I've less issue fending off thieves/assassins than i have being 2 rounded by superchamp the paladin.

I think you're probably in the minority there, but I could be wrong.

>I think you're probably in the minority there, but I could be
>wrong.

You wouldn't be.

Yay!

Look at a storms stats compared to a duergars. Theres absolutely no contest.
And I'd much rather have detect hidden than any of a storm giant's resits which all can be gotten from preps. Not so much with detect hidden.

Are you seriously trying to argue that duergars were in more need of a balance tweak than storm giants? Seriously?

sd

One difference between you and I is that I have a lot more numbers at my disposal.

It's not even a close call, in my opinion. If people want a character for mass mayhem, if duergar is an option for their preferred class, it's always one of the top choices, and for good reasons.

On the other hand, in our recent talks about race balance, storm giants weren't even on the board.

I also think whitesteel is targetted in a clever way, but I'll let people explore a bit and figure that out.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

So I'm cool with another vuln, but please don't allow wrathing-/searing light-whitesteel weapons. That would be a bit rough.

Jeeze.

How many of these whitesteel weapons do you think exist?

The helpfile sais they are only created by a group of monks...

I doubt they have had, have, or will ever have, an assembly line or production plant.

It's not like you just got a vuln that everyone can go pick up at the drop of a hat, so much so that everyone you will face will have one.....like iron/mithril for the elves is.

Seriously.

To me, all this belly-aching and whining (Someone even went so far as to ask "who will want to play a duergar now?!?!") over a vuln that is limited to probably a small handful of weapons, considering duergar's considerable bonuses (not to mention the not-so-long ago loss of the water vuln), would be Hilarious. If it just wasn't plain ol' Sad.

>Jeeze.
>
>How many of these whitesteel weapons do you think exist?
>
>The helpfile sais they are only created by a group of
>monks...
>
>I doubt they have had, have, or will ever have, an assembly
>line or production plant.
>
>It's not like you just got a vuln that everyone can go pick up
>at the drop of a hat, so much so that everyone you will face
>will have one.....like iron/mithril for the elves is.
>
>Seriously.
>
>To me, all this belly-aching and whining (Someone even went so
>far as to ask "who will want to play a duergar now?!?!") over
>a vuln that is limited to probably a small handful of weapons,
>considering duergar's considerable bonuses (not to mention the
>not-so-long ago loss of the water vuln), would be Hilarious.
>If it just wasn't plain ol' Sad.


Then next thing we know it's a police state.

Yes. Yes, they do.

Duergar are by no means unplayable, it's not like they have as many problems as elves do.