Alternately you could have it grant a slow-like effect but without the benefits of the slow spell. (Think kansetsuwaza). This would last for some short period of time (~2-3 hours) similar to how a failed blackjack works. Except unlike blackjack, even a failed sleep is useful since your target tanks worse. A necro who fails his sleep but has an army of hasted zombies...may just one-round the guy anyway.

If a necro has been in combat recently(with a pc) it turns into a combat spell, rather than put their enemy to sleep. So if a warrior gets the first hit, he doesn't have to worry about his foe flee sleeping him.

There should be big drawbacks to using skills like flurry that lag you for a long time, and one of those is having to resist a sleep spell (imho). I don't feel that getting the first strike should exempt you from that.

But what are the drawbacks of sleep?

It is the single most powerfull effect in game IMHO.

Of course I'm bitter for just being owned by a Necromancer.

I don't think you'd make it past rank 30 or so as a necro. Sleep is potent but necros are fragile. I tend to really own necros until they get wands, or unless I get jacked before being spelled up.

It's probably the easiest mage class to land low-level kills with, but mostly because most low-level characters don't fear magi and de-emphasize save vs. spells when choosing equipment. But it's also a very fragile class.

A single missed Sleep on a warrior-type can spell doom, especially if they're remotely ready for a necromancer. I don't mean seeing them coming and munching tons of preps. More like having decent saves, some +str, wielding one or two lightweight weapons (especially if they cut through Wraithform), and being on your toes about throwing a lot of lag or damage (just) before their spell lag wears off. And even if the Sleep lands, finishing the kill against a clever opponent isn't simple.

Very skilled players can be successful as low-ranked necromancers, but these players can be more successful with any warrior-type class.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Just kidding.

I don't rage delete so much with mage/communers. I get bored.

There is something inside me that says I might accidently hero a Necro someday. Therefore I'm afraid to try.

And you just couldn't resist the barb could you?

You know, if you DO know who someone is playing and you have it out for him/her, at least have the courtesy to tell him not to waste his time.

Comments like this from you make me think this could be the reason my character is having the trouble he is.

I'm not a conspiracy nut, but there it is.

Pro

I mean, man, you had how many characters that interacted with Manden and all deleted before 40?

I can't even get a necro past 30, and I think I'm one of the calmer players on CF. Then again, I tend to play warriors most of the time.

Maybe I just didn't understand what you were trying to say here.

Of course I am what is known in military parlance as a target rich environment.

I have feelings of persecution when it comes to Valg is all.

And for me staying alive is the name of the game. It's had for me to get past dying..I've been getting better though, Gruurg had 5 PK's against him before I tossed it in. Definatly a record..considering 3 was my previous.

I have fun or I wouldn't play, I only feel bad about deleting if It's going to hurt someone elses feelings.

Like yours Buddy.

Pro

And I have no clue who you're playing.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

It's an Immspiracy involving your seduction of Amaranthe an your capitulation to the whims of Neppy.

Seriously, What I was talking about was what I perceived as a thinly veiled insult directed at my propensity for RD.

I have the greatest respect for you with reguard to your contribution to our favorite game, but I've never been fond of your bedside manner.

Still you are nearly always right can't fault you for that even if you are thwarting my evil plans. *Joke*

Pro

I stopped using it after I was tracked down by a google search that led someone who was looking for me to me where I live.

Thank you.

I'm a ranger, villager applicant. Geared more for saves than damage if I recal correctly. Notice how she flees with bleeding wounds. She returns, fails the sleep and I get three free hits on her. That right there decides the fight.

If sleep was the end all/be all of the lower ranks, how come I won? I'll give you a hint: save vs spell.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv> n
sca Kitchen

west]
A servant is scurrying through here on an Aes Sedai's orders.
A servant is scurrying through here on an Aes Sedai's orders.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv> a
You scan north.
***** Range 1 *****
A novice of the White Tower is here washing dishes.

You scan south.
You scan east.
You scan west.
***** Range 1 *****
Lillandra is here, fighting a servant.
Ekiron is here, fighting a servant.
Kirsis is here, fighting a servant.
A servant is scurrying through here on an Aes Sedai's orders.
Dorothy, the head cook, is here supervising the servants and novices.

You scan up.
You scan down.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv> w
Kitchen


Lillandra is here, fighting a servant.
Ekiron is here, fighting a servant.
Kirsis is here, fighting a servant.
A servant is scurrying through here on an Aes Sedai's orders.
Dorothy, the head cook, is here supervising the servants and novices.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv> fd
Lillandra yells 'Help! I am being attacked by Segroi!'
Your flaming bite misses Lillandra.
Lillandra has some small but disgusting cuts.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv>
Your flaming bite decimates Lillandra!
Your claw EVISCERATES Lillandra!
Lillandra parries your flaming bite.
Ekiron's slash misses a servant.
Lillandra is covered with bleeding wounds.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv>
Kirsis's kick misses a servant.
Lillandra is covered with bleeding wounds.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv> di
Your kicked dirt misses Lillandra.
Lillandra has fled!

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv>
Kirsis's slice wounds a servant.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv>
Ekiron delivers a punishing kick to the legs of a servant.
A servant is brought down by Ekiron's sweep kick.
Ekiron's sweep kick maims a servant!

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv> whe
e

A servant disarms Kirsis!
Kirsis's punch wounds a servant.
Ekiron's slash misses a servant.
Ekiron's slash hits a servant.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv> ds

You yell 'Die, Lillandra, you sorcerous dog!'
Lillandra utters the words, 'grzzs'.
Lillandra parries your flaming bite.
You miss Lillandra.
You EVISCERATE Lillandra!
You devastate Lillandra!
Lillandra is convulsing on the ground.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv> f
Kirsis gets a long knife.
Lillandra is convulsing on the ground.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv> d

Kirsis wields a long knife.
Lillandra is convulsing on the ground.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv> People near you:
(PK) Segroi Kitchen
(PK) Lillandra Kitchen
Kirsis Kitchen
Ekiron Kitchen
Your flaming bite decimates Lillandra!
Lillandra is mortally wounded, and will die soon, if not aided.
Your claw DISMEMBERS Lillandra!
Lillandra is DEAD!!
Lillandra spills her guts all over the floor.
Ekiron's slash hits a servant.
Ekiron's slash misses a servant.

She died because she came at you while convulsing.

Your +saves gear may have assisted you in avoiding that sleep, but it was her not Faerie firing/blinding then flee-sleeping you until the RNG caught you.

I'm not saying that Necro's/A-P's are unbeatable, not by anymeans. I however avoid them and as a result I rarely die to them.

I am saying that sleep is hands down the best/worst spell out there.

It's an opinion, I know, but I'm sticking with it until someone can explain to me the down side of it. And for me simply failing to land a sleep is not a downside since in most cases a sleep-flee will nearly guarantee escape if it doesn't look like it's going to work.

The free hits I got took her down to convulsing.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. I disagree.

Nivek

But, on the other hand, I do think necromancers casting sleep probably has the highest ratio of attempt vs. kill of any spell, skill, or supp in the game.

When most resist your sleep, and even if they don't, the hoarde from whatever cabal they are in comes storming in.

That assumes that you are not part of the biggest hoarde on the mud at the time.

But Pro is blinding himself to the reality that that necro was not convulsing when casting sleep and died because of the counterhits plus lag from sleep.

The spell didn't kill that Necro, the Necro killed that necro.

I know it's hard but try to grasp my meaning here.

There are no draw backs to sleep that other spells don't have. In fact their are less because it can get you when you can't do anything about it.

If you die casting sleep, it's not the spells fault, it's because of the choice you made.

If the spell fails it doesn't kill you, your choice of when and how to apply it does.

Ta-Da!

He's entitled to his opinion, but it seems to be based on incorrect assumptions, at least in this case.

That necro was not all that badly hurt until he cast that last sleep spell.

What killed him?

The fact that he cast the spell or when he cast the spell?

Think man think.

What killed him? The fact that he cast the spell or when he cast the spell? Think man think.

Not for nothing, but you spurred this discussion off a log where you more or less entered the worst possible command at each juncture, other than fleeing to eat poisoned food or quaff a PWK potion.

Other people are making the point that because of the fragility of necromancers, they can be hosed by good saving throws, quick thinking, alertness, and being ready for their particular brand of combat. Sure, they have a potent weapon like Sleep starting at a low level... because they don't have Dodge, Hide, Dual Wield, or any of the other potent weapons they compete against.

Sleep has a number of "drawbacks"- it has to be used to open combat, it's nigh-useless in any number of situations (like a fight in progress, including the log you posted) where someone or something will wake the victim, and if you make the saving throw, the second and subsequent attempts get much harder.

Now, since you were playing a warrior in that log, and you're really hammering on 'drawbacks', what are the 'drawbacks' of Dodge? Dual Wield? Third Attack? Bash?

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Dodge: Need to keep low weight for maximum effectiveness, thus making you more susceptible to bash.

Dual Wield: No shield block.

Third Attack: (reaching) porcupines?

Bash: Three rounds of lag on missed bash attempts.

And on a more serious note... What is all this low level saves gear I'm supposed to be wearing? I consider necro's truely deadly at 24 (scourge) so, realisticaly, I need my saves by 20, even as a 0 xp pen combo. Now I can pick up 200 hp on low level gear if I gear exclusively for it, and probably 10 in str or dex under the same circumstances, however, I don't know if I can make -20 saves without a limited item. So I ask, is there really -50 in saves gear available at level 20? I mean stuff that is non-limited (can't count on limited things being in) and obtainble by a level 20 character. If there is, let me know, I'll look a bit harder for it, otherwise, the "have more saves" argument is a little off, isn't it?

Laearrist, avoides necromancers like well... the scourge.

I don't have a problem with the spell.

It's just a damn good spell is all that I am saying.

And it doesn't have to be used to initiate combat, It can be used on sleeping opponents.

It can be used in combat to set off Cheapshots (Not a good use for it)

And it will eventually land if you keep trying after a failure, unlike strangle, Blackjack, and perhaps one or two others.

If you are a A-P with good HP and a strong defense it's even more yummy, even without the spell enhancment necros get.

And as for my log, it wasn't about my tactics. I was hosed where I was and was already tossing around deletion because of my spec choice. The question was why don't Necro's step out of cover when they cast it?

I admit it was what I was hoping for so I could redirect and bash the Necromancer.

I don't know why I bashed that ghoul considering I like to start nearly all my fights with a simple murder, but again, that wasn't the point of the post you refered to.

>And it doesn't have to be used to initiate combat, It can be
>used on sleeping opponents.

That's true, but if you let a necromancer catch you that way, isn't that really your own fault?

>And it will eventually land if you keep trying after a
>failure, unlike strangle, Blackjack, and perhaps one or two
>others.

Eventually. The problem there, at least when I've generally fought low-level necromancers with warriors etc., is that the necromancer runs out of hit points and dies sometime before eventually happens.

I'm not saying it's not mean, but give me low level almost anything else rather than necromancer and I will rack you up a bigger pile of enemy bodies faster.

Howdy (Dupayne here).

I just want to let you know that you actually and literally had a 0% chance of winning that fight and a 100% chance of dying (now knowing that you were a rager wannabe).

I was reduced and flying so you couldn't lag me. I could simply flee, invis and re-try the sleep ad-nauseum until one succeeds. I would have rescued and then blinded, cursed before walking off the room and allowing my golem to flee, before trying to sleep you again (this is, of course, if you hadn't decided to bash my golem for some strange reason).

Next time you enter into a fight with a necromancer as a rager wannabe, just run (unless you like dying).

Do not take this the wrong way but I have never seen such humorous tactics in a one on one fight before. I was sitting at my screen thinking "WTF is this guy smoking? Is he seriously bashing my golem over and over?!"

Back to the point of the post. All I can say is try a necromancer and see exactly how powerful sleep is. You may be disappointed when you start dying a lot. In the right hands, like Nep's, they are lethal. In the remaining 95% of the playerbases' hands they are kinda fragile. I'm of the belief that a good player can make anything seem overpowered (even rager deathblow).

And FYI.

I was not happy with my Spec choice. So I was already about to delete.

Why would I as a fearless Minotaur Run?

And If you look at the log you'll see that my moves where low, and where we were I wouldn't have made it anywhere I could hide from you.

I knew i was nerfed and I just let it roll.

Look at my command inputs. Do you see any real attempt at survival there?

If I'm good at anything in this game, it's running away.

So everybody, quit coming back to my tactics... the thread isn't about that one fight that I really just didn't care about.

If you're a warrior type you make use of the fact that necro's are fragile. I personally fight them the same way I fight evil conjurers. I know the demon's gonna kill me in a drawn out fight but I dish out as much damage in the shortest possible period of time. If you get slept just flee and teleport when you wake and you should get away if they are solo. Otherwise just keep focus'd on them and deal as much damage in the shortest possible time. Murder, drive west, flurry is surprisingly effective on necros so long as it takes him a couple tries to land the blind.

Necros, Conjurers, APs, Orcs...anything that deals fast damage but can't tank is just a matter of who hits who harder. Orcs and APs you can maledict to drop weapon at least, but in the case of necros/conjies just make use of the fact that they tank like a soft fleshy rock.

If you don't have decent saves, odds are you'll be kept asleep until all teleporting away will do is cost the necromancer sometime in locating your corpse.

competent necro + successful sleep = me dead

And that is with teleport potions.

If you are slept and sleep through the entire timer you shouldn't be reslept. If you are slept and get woken by an ally or mob then you should be able to be reslept though.

I tried to edit it after I posted but it didn't take apparently.