I'm not sure I'd mess with binding. It's probably the most lethal on average build out there.

.

Seems to me like binder has to be the most lethal.

Unless there's some other epic thief skill that thugs get that I'm unaware of? Parting block has never caused me an issue if that's what you're thinking of.

Seriously, binding is on-par as being one of the weakest thief killers in my opinion. Try one and realize how bad it can be with bindings fail, how hard it is to drag someone, how shadow drag breaks on every drag, how friends, cabalmates or even lowbies ruin every kill, and how bindings even when they magically all work fall off the first round of combat.

A poisoner can instantly kill you with a single command with no save (unless you want to count trying to save against a level 80+ mind control poison).

I've fought against poisoners - seems like every current thief is a poisoner. My thought is that 'suggest quaff pwk' was fixed but if it's not yeah - that should've gone away years ago. I haven't faced that in many years.

To me the bind vs thug question is simply third attack + parting block vs bindings. Bindings are very good. Dragging would be nice but all I really need to kill a lot of people is blindfold and bind legs.

Its not really good in raid situations but that doesn't mean it's awful. Sleep isn't very good in raid situations either but I wouldn't say that necromancers are underpowered.

Hope you like maggots for dinner.

I think poisoner looks pretty good on paper but I don't think I've ever had to deal with an effective one as an enemy.

Conversely I have several times been in a situation where I would have died if the binder I was dealing with was even marginally competent at chasing.

Where bindings would have made a difference compared to a trapper, thug, or poisoner.

Poisoner could mind-control you and do a whole host of things if you're knocked out, and you're more likely to die to emetic/neuro if you get out of there.

Trapper might just kill you immediately as you flee and hit a horde of traps.

Thug will likely have the edge in combat. It doesn't sound like much, but a thug that smartly uses scrolls is scary.

Everytime I've tried a binder, bindings fail way too often even perfected and they fall off almost immediately... and you're trying to fight someone with basically trip and kick and if you're lucky enough to isolate someone away from everyone else (so you're fighting completely out of the view of other people and his friends, ooc or ic, can't get to him), you can have them drop protections... but you still need to kill them in short order whereas you're hoping that trip/cheap shot plus you tanking them will be able to survive.

Maybe you could be scary to Anti-paladins wanting to keep their weapon or to ragers (hah, miss that garrotte and you're dead instantly) or to characters that would die to you spamming trip without protections, but any thief can accomplish that with enough patience.

I don't know, just had bad experiences playing one. I did the whole crazy scroll binder (even using crimson scourge and plague) and felt like a ton of work that got thrown away by someone untying them or help arriving. Killing the pure solo guy was so rare back then, but maybe it's more prominent given the lack of #s.

Few things.

Poisoner - outside of eating maggots (which should be fixed/removed as a viable option) I don't see what a poisoner would do that's really that nasty. They're tedious/annoying but not lethal (to my chars, recently at least, I haven't died to a poisoner since suggest pwk from Zulg's thief).

Trapper - Setting traps is a painful, expensive process that takes forever and can backfire. I'm not really worried about a trapper setting traps while he has me knocked out.

Thug - I mean they have an extra attack and parting block - which is cool, it's not going to kill me though since if I get knocked out I'm *going* to run. Unless they land blind on me while slept (easier said than done) I'm going to just rest/quaff if he doesn't open and if he opens I'm going to flee and do the same thing. Or outright run on foot. Or just kick their ass depending on what I'm playing. I've had paladins for instance who just ate cheapshots and still killed the attacker.

Binder - if they get the leg bindings on you, you walk slow as hell and it destroys your movement. The blindfold is an "easy to land" blindness on your target to prevent them from getting a potion from their container. Unbinding is very laggy (I want to say 4+ rounds). This makes it much less likely that you get away if I open backstab into chase/cheap shot. Now, if you can actually get them into a trip spam *after* opening backstab and you *still can't* kill them then it wasn't meant to be anyway and you need to loop in a better tank.

I assume you meant Sebeok, and so much has changed with poisoners since then it's not even funny.

Poisoners can still be deadly without maggots. You play them like a shaman, drag out fights. You can sabotage inventories and armor by just picking up plant off cityties. You can suggest throwdown...you can suggest hit, but not murder. So if they are in a room with a mob you can make them attack it, but not make them attack players. You can get ####ED up pieces of armor that are cursed, with huge negative stat bonuses and make people wear them, then kick their asses while they are wearing it. Mask that blinds you permanently anyone? I've found armor pieces with like, -15 dex and stuff. Get crafty and make an arial wear a piece and see how well he does. Neurological poison wrecks shop in group fights, poison others weapons. Fear poison rocks, good luck killing a thief with 2 weapons doused in it. They fear you and you just watch them knife you to death or retrieve with a smile right to your face. Grenades are great. IMO emetic poison should have a weapon applied option, but it has it's places if you have say, a bard you know will be drinking before a fight. That's just the tip of the iceberg, there is a lot of potential for poisoners with patience.

They're not going to be badass melee fighters like thugs, they're poisoners. And if you cross a competent one they can really really make you wish you had never rolled up.

Well, the permablind mask is #### too. That should be tweaked. I mean, it should fall within the realm of reasonable powers and permanently blind is not reasonable, guaranteed instant-death or align change are not reasonable, etc.

Just stay full if you know the thief is around. It's not that hard to be too full to eat constantly if you know that's what you're dealing with.

Kinda absurd. How about we just get rid of "you instantly die no matter what" sorts of skills?

Without coming down on either side of the issue of whether or not that particular item + suggest is fair, there are things you can do (having eaten them) to survive it.

it's not instant

I know there's downsides to that item in general but for what it's worth, unless we're talking about healing sleep, I can't fathom how to survive it. Is there a way in game without looking at the code or experimenting with trial and error to know how to cure it?

I mean for me, this and 'emetic contact poisoning your gear while ghost' are two things that strike me as purely griefing and probably not productive to the otherwise-anti-griefing direction CF has taken (for the better!).

Also I tend to think 30+ hours of any poison probably should get looked at unless there's a place where you can buy antidotes. Game balance vs griefing.

>I know there's downsides to that item in general but for what
>it's worth, unless we're talking about healing sleep, I can't
>fathom how to survive it. Is there a way in game without
>looking at the code or experimenting with trial and error to
>know how to cure it?

Yeah, there are. Think about ways to inhibit other affects that are based on a living thing inside you. I guess that would require some trial and error though. Hopefully that's vague enough not to be deleted.

Straaaaaange brew -- killin' what's inside of you.
She's a witch of trouble in electric blue.
In her own mad mind she's in love with you,
With you.
Now what you gonna do?


Let the Cream bring a little sunshine into your life.

...

I'll wait in this place where the sun never shines,
Wait in this place where the shadows run from themselves.

Shrine description for new evil IMM?

And let them rot in Hell for multiple RL hours