I don't hate nexus.

I do hate the fort/nexus dynamic. It feels completely artifical to me. I can't see how Fort essentially gives Nexus a pass with the whole enemies today, friends tomorrow, enemies the next, it just doesn't work with my idea of how a good zealot would react to someone that attacks, betrays, or kills them or their allies. I understand it from the Nexus side, I just don't see why the Fort wouldn't actively hunt those that attacked and raided them.

Personally what I'd like to see is Nexans being flagged hunted by Fortress if they attack and raid too often. Similar to what happened with the village recently when they were raiding Fort. or what happens when non-battle enemies hunt/raid battle all the time.



I also think Nexus would work better as a small cabal with a limited number of members. That way they could help smooth the pendelum swings as the balance tips one way or the other. Not as the massive army it is now. :p

If a neutral happens to be killing storm giants or something, the Fort guy attacks him, but outside of the situation when a neutral guy isn't doing evil things, Fort doesn't hunt him. From whichever perspective I think of it, holding long grudges benefits neither Fort nor Nexus as Fort should balance. Thus, Nexus should be treated like other neutrals, with their circumstances taken into consideration.

I'd also like to point out that Fort that does not hold Codex and Scepter should have more important things to do than raiding Nexus.

Really, it should be simple enough for Fort. Fight Nexans when they are attacking those of light. Hunt those Nexans that are known to attack Fort members when light holds sway over balance (different nexans may take action to different extent when balance sways a bit). You can check the balance from said Nexus members. It should be within their best interest to provide you truthful information, as ambush tactic will not work in the long run.

Also, it is good to remember that severe tipping of balance is fairly uncommon.

I am philisophically as far from this as I can get.

I don't get how Baerinika followers can justify tolerance for Nexuns they have seen doing evil for instance.

Uhg, I am being reminded how much I despise the cabal.

I find it superficial and leading to shallow RP that oversimplifies things in terms of black and white. Your logic is devoid of all those beautiful, yet signifigant nuances. IMHO, your logic stems from a failure to grasp the nature of neutrality and is therefore inherently flawed. I think that we will never agree upon this issue. I've always disliked your stance towards neutral 'fence-sitters' and found it invalid.

I've got nothing against your person, though. We can afford to have a couple of people who think that way, but in general, it should not become the norm.

Also, I'd like to point out that the extent to which different nexuns go to in trying to maintain balance is very different. For example, my nexun Gnuff never fought against Fortress, yet some Fort members had inherently hostile attitude towards nexus when I offered them aid or asked for group. Fortunately, 'but I haven't attacked those of light' was an effective defensive argument. There is no reason for a Fort member to shun nexuns that haven't harmed the light in any way.

And you do not.

We'll disagree to agree and I will continue to not like the cabal.

Edit: This isn't meant to sound harsh. I just REALLY do not like the cabal for all the problems it causes.

But I suppose that's what a Chaotic Evil cabal is supposed to do. And yes, I really do believe they are chaotic evil, no troll intended.

1) If someone ever commits an evil act, they should be hunted.

2) This includes Nexus as at times they kill those of the light.

3) Also including they aid evil individuals with their goal(s).

Is this is correct?





IF this is true THEN those of the Fort should be committing
suicide if they ever kill a goodie or made hunted for when
they may commit these acts barring intent. An example(s) would be
killing a good tribby guard while wanted or accidental fireball
that blows up little goodie when killing an evil. These acts
are known to harm good but they do them anyway because they want
evil people dead. *Tribby example is why Few if any evil(s) are
in Tribunal now*



I could be going out on a limb but it sounds like you think
that the guy who would rather everything be kept the way things
are currently ie (Status Quo, ->Switzerland) should be
considered tainted for attempting to do this. Or if you like
movies and go to the extreme -> "Team America, World Police".

While tragic, and possibly criminal it lacks intent.

Going out of your way to kill someone with premeditation, for no other reason than personal gain is an evil act.

I go so far as to say a good player who kills an evil mob for its equipment is committing an evil act. It's not the aura of the person killed so much as it is the intent of the killer.

This is why, for me, Nexus fails and it is not a truly neutral cabal.

Neutrality, as it was originally intended by Gary Gygax, and how it came to be adopted in genres which use the LG to CE spectrum, was not meant as a balance between actions. It actually had two facets; An individual or group who did not take sides on issues of politics or morality. Or, a creature or entity that was unthinking and thus incapable of being either good or evil.


Killing one child for the purpose of ranking, or even getting a single copper, in my estimation is purely evil and can't be balanced out by killing an orc. In fact, if you are killing an orc as a way of atonement for killing a kid, then that too is an act rooted in personal gain at the expense of killing another. This would make it shady at best. Granted it is an orc and no one will miss it (Even another orc) but the intent wasn't self-preservation, it was for a different reason all together.

I separate this distinction when it comes to killing non-sentients, undead, or hordes of evil creatures clearly arrayed for war. And I will play it out as if I am on a mission too erradicate a force hell bent of mayhem and destruction. But I refuse to say, “Let's go kill X for his sword!”, simply because I want to wield his sword. I might RP it in this way! Look out for that X! He has a sharp sword! Die X! Hrm, this sword is sharper than mine. I shall keep it and put it to good use.


The new kinship command further solidifies my stance, since now there is next to NO reason for a goody to kill a neutral for his gear now.

Anyway, that's where I stand on it. Some people have tried to make logical arguments for neutrals and to date, I have not been swayed.

Nexus is simply Chaotic Evil cabal in my eyes.

They follow the balance in what they hunt. In no way at all could that be seen as chaotic. Is a person evil just because they seek to strengthen themselves? Does the ends justify the means? For the balanced people I would say that is the question. Does the means of the action justify what happens in the end. If he kills one of the light and therefore saves everyone it is not an evil act. Kill one save a million as they say. The whole idea of the greater good. I do not think it is evil to kill something for its things because of the simple fact is they are evil and dont deserve them. Also iit it for the best as a goodie to have better things to hunt the wicked.

Just because they seek balance doesnt mean every action they seek to have a balance. I just see it as they fight for the greater good versus for the good of all. Do I personally see it that way no but is there a massive amount of good logic behind it YES. For the nexun cabal it is all about the ends justifying the means.

Being neutral isnt about not thinking. One can feel nothiing for doing good nor care about doing evil. They could just be living life and doing so by what they feel is nessisary. From a psychological standpoint people arent good or evil. They have to choose between to act on impulses from the Id or act on the thoughts given by the superego which is done in the ego. Most people...in society would be considered neutral because naturally we do not act in the best interest of others. Most people act for themselves...helping or hurting others depending on what benefits them.

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

I stand by my assertion that Nexuns are Chaotic Evil.

Put yourself in a normal persons shoes as it were.

One day this guy is your friend, the next he is your enemy, one day he is a sinner, the next he is a saint. Based on what? The fluxuations of the random appearance and disappearance of people of various philosophies.

It's chaotic, they murder people and are evil.

You can sprinkle powdered sugar on a turd and call it a brownie but it will still taste like crap.

Applying real-world "alignment" to CF doesn't work. However, Based on your various posts in this thread I have to assume that you just haven't interacted with a well role-played Nexun. Often the problem in CF is that people play for PKs, so one can never get the feel of how an actual Nexun would act. I don't think a "by-the-book" Nexun acts in the ways you describe them to act. It's the player, not the concept or the cabal, that is at fault imo.

The only well played Nexun is a dead nexun.

I've read your arguments for Nexun before, I just do not agree.

The way I think alignment works is more in line with the game creators who ultimately decide how alignment works. Therefore, I WIN SUCKA.

I've always felt you were wrong about that. Here is why; You say Neutral IS in the game so people have to accept it.

I say, I do not have to accept it.

Big tell comming up! I don't practice the know alignment sups, because I judge people on their actions, not a mechanic. I've gotten into some good pally on pally action as a result. I'm always ready to explain my actions, nit just justify it via red/golden aura.

I agree many conflicts should exist where they don't. Just, as I kinda said above, the lack of said conflicts is (in my eyes) more due to a fault of the player than the system.

I also don't practice know alignment. Only, I do it because everyone's RP is transparent anyway.

>Neutrality, as it was originally intended by Gary Gygax, and
>how it came to be adopted in genres which use the LG to CE
>spectrum, was not meant as a balance between actions.

CF uses those words, but they aren't meant to mean the same thingI absolutely agree with what you're saying when it comes to real life and in some other games and books. Maybe it was a mistake for CF to use the same alignment/ethos words. Perhaps they should've been called Morality and Organization or something. If it helps, you can replace those words in your head.

Because the fact is that CF simply defines neutral differently than it is defined in other contexts. In CF neutral really does mean that you are either intentionally balancing good and evil acts, or that you are willing to kill for some grand purpose, but not your own direct benefit, as often.

The whole scale in CF is more evil than it is in reality. In CF, a good character would be considered neutral in reality, neutral in CF would be actually quite evil in reality, and evil in CF is just so ridiculously sociopathic there are only two or three examples in history of people who are that evil, and even that is debateable.

That is simple how it is defined in CF. The words are the same, but the meaning is different.

I realize some people view neutrality that way. I do not. If you play a neutral and I catch you ranking on goodies, or really, even on say neutral towns folk somewhere, my paladin/shaman/goodie will forever see you as having done an evil act.

The act of forgivness must come from the victim, so for me the player, I find it impossible to justify forgiveness for the act since, in the example I am not thwe one who was directly wrong. In this case I would be an avenger and in order to mett out justice, I would have to try to layeth the smackdown on you.

I have heard people describe neutrality the way you have, but to be true to logic and what I know in real life to be, "Good", well, let's just say, neutrals have a tough row to hoe.

I typically play mine in such a way that ends up getting me aligned with goodies more-so than evil. Scarab changed that for my last ranger by forcing my character to hunt some goodies by taking advantage of his neutral morality.

I don't think neutral should be out randomly murdering townsfolk either.

However, it's a game and concessions have to be made to keep it balanced, working, and people playing it. No one would play neutral if they played with the same restrictions we agree should be upon them.

The Lyceum has an excellent article about "proper" neutrality. Tir-Talath is an excellent example of how a neutral society should work. There are plenty of examples for people to follow.

>I have heard people describe neutrality the way you have, but
>to be true to logic and what I know in real life to be,
>"Good", well, let's just say, neutrals have a tough row to
>hoe.

I appreciate that you're keeping a strong consistent morality for your characters, but it really seems like the words is the only problem. If they changed good, neutral and evil to neutral, evil and abominable, would you then be satisfied? Is it just the words that bother you, or the actual categories?

Is a chaotic evil cabal specifically.

Edit: I say this with the hope of getting people to actually envision what it is they do.

There is no grey area with me for them and their behavior so I can't accept them, thus I avoid them.

I'm not bashing on players of the cabal, it's an option in the game, just not an option for me.

I agree that neutrals killing innocent children is a bit silly, but don't forget this is CF and special rules apply to CF. Killing mobs isn't evil. It just isn't.

Gary Gygax didn't write CF. You should not use his interpretation of the alignment and try to apply it to CF. Helpfiles and the newbie academy alignment pool do a fantastic job of defining alignment as it is to be interpreted in CF.

They live to serve Thera as a whole and lay their lives down on the line for it. They will sacrifice love, friendship, and whatever else is necessary to protect the Balance. The Balance, without which, Thera would destroy itself. Therfore, Nexus = "More good than Fortress"

No Joe the blacksmith, Not peg the Bartender, so for them to suddenly materialize and lay waste to good people who have done nothing but live their life in peace is unforgivable. Nothing can attone for that.

Period.

End of story for me.

But that's not really what Nexus does.

Killing Joe the Blacksmith doesn't shift the balance. Killing Bob the Maran Paladin does.

Just Meh.

Sorry guys. I hate the cabal, and there's pretty much no way around it.

If you don't like it you don't like it, but I can't help but feel that you hate a strawman version of the cabal and not what Nexus actually is.

But I can't say if this is due to your experience, or your inability to understand their fundamental philosophy - Or maybe it's just that you're stuck in the baer-paladin mindset of goodie. There ARE more goodies than that.


And even then, I don't think baerpally just actively hunts nexuns.

The concept of Balance exists in Thera. For Joe the blacksmith and Peg the bartender. They may not agree with it, pactice it, or think it is necessary, but it does exist.

Your "Balance" is my evil and I shall smite thee.

Now your applying some kind of pseudo-quantum mechanics to CF. How DARE you. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me dry quicksand exists AND doesn't exist in CF.

sdfvs

nt

20,000 screaming sailors soldiers airmen and jarines.

I'm getting too old for real life.

Killing leads to Evil. That's what the Acolytes are for. No one ever role-plays that though...

Killing in and of it's self isn't evil. It is part and parcel of life. It is the intent that determines whether or not it is evil.

There is some room for argument on where that line is crossed, but for me. Nexus crosses the line and never comes back. And to be fair, I treat any neutral who I catch doing evil deeds this way. But I stand by my assertion that Nexus is a fallacious concept and an sick, twisted phillosophy.

Don't get any ideas that it's me if you come across a hater, there are others.

Edit: This thread was about Nexus, not Fortress. For me, Nexus sit's squarely in team Evil.

The idea of all life being precious is a very modern idea. One mostly limited to the richer, more educated middle and upper class. Thera's much closer to the dark ages, in my opinion, where the only reliable way to stop murderous rapists is killing them before they murder and rape more.

The fact that Maran make their living on killing people and can still epitomize good supports this, I think.

I would argue that regarding Nexus, the Acolytes should be MORE intent on killing them than the Maran. The Maran creed, as I understand it, is more focused on destroying the darkness, and to them the Nexus is merely an obstacle blocking their way. The Acolytes are more concerned with saving, preserving, and keeping other goodies (and the "Light") alive, and to them the Nexus is almost completely antithetical. The ultimate goal of the Nexus is to destroy everything they stand for and are sworn to protect.

I pulled Fortress in to draw contrast and failed to elucidate my line of reasoning. Killing isn't evil and life isn't precious. However, the act of killing has psychological effects on (most) individuals that would cause them to turn "evil."

I think you are simplifying the role of Acolytes as many do. They aren't there just to protect the light, be helpful, etc. Their absolute main goal (read the texts) is to essentially keep Maran from turning evil during their murderous rampage of evil. Keep them from crossing the incredibly thin line between righteous zealot and murderous lunatic.

I'll drop the Nexus stuff in this part of the thread since I derailed it.

I agree, in practice it should be simple. It only gets complicated with the small number (like under 5) of Nexus players that will ambush you without warning when the balance tips Light. And in those circumstances, where a character is making themelves a constant threat to turn on you at any time without warning, I see the reaction to those ambushers being best handled on a character specific basis as opposed to treating it as though it's endemic to the entire Nexus cabal.

That said, I think there's a place for saber rattling in CF. Some of people's strongest memories are of times when their cabal went into internal conflict over whether to war with another cabal. It took two years of IC internal strife before Outlander warred with Scion full time and I know the guys who played Baltherias and Kravidan have some cool memories of some of that IC political stuff. Just as long as the pragmatic outnumber the hotheads and we come to the "right" conclusion and stay true to the cabal - and graciously accept the consequences if you don't.

And I think there's a difference between IC debates and political powergrabs, like what happened with Outlander/Scion, and OOC debates on the forums.

The only difference is that non-nexus neutrals essentially never raid fort and if they do they potentially can get marked hunted by fortress such as Akedeh.

Other cabaled neutral characters might have a reason to fight individual fort members i.e. battle v fort mages, outlander v fort dwarf, etc but those are individual fights. But, outlander doesn't really come and raid Fort to just to try and kill a Fort paladin for example. And, those fights are known before hand, Fort mages know Battle members will be gunning for them and if they see them a fight is going to happen. Its not like Nexans that you can't attack because they MIGHT not be coming to murder you.

But with nexans the fight potentially comes whenever light tips and they will continue the fight to the point of raiding the cabal if need be. To me that is akin to declaring war with the Fort. I understand people have different points of view, but for me it's hard to see how a Fort character turns around forgets recent history after a nexus raid. I could see Fort players forgiving nexus of their transgressions or reconciling if nexus was contrite about their actions and then moving forward but I don't think that is going to happen. :p

I have not read through the entire thread, so this may have already been covered... I think people don't like the cabal because it's not black an white from an rp perspective and it is always changing. I happen to love Nexus because it is not black and white. Nexus has been by far my favorite cabal to play as a mortal. A big reason for this is because it isn't black and white. If you want to play Nexus well, you have to essentially RP with people. An goodie guy kills an evil guy an there's not really an explanation needed. If you bother to try to rp with each other you might get a pat on the back. A gnome kills a goodie and it makes the goodie say WTF gnome! This is not in my reality of black and white, I now hate you.

nt

This one is mostly directed to the imms: Do you feel that the cabal is filling the niche that you wanted it to, and are you happy with how it influences the dynamics?

There are players who enjoy playing Nexus. At the end of the day, I call that a success.

Yes, there are players who hate playing Nexus. There are players who hate playing Trib, Outlander, Fortress....I refuse to play Empire. It doesn't even look fun to me.

The only thing that came up that I semi agree with is a little bit of magic shoe-horning. I like the idea of Nexus designed as a magic cabal but agree we could fine tune the idea a little to make it tie in better. Mostly, I justify it that CF runs on magic. Without magic, to steal blatently from Terry Goodkind, dragons would die, the Island would crash to the ground, mages would collapse, etc. Since magic is so insinuated into the daily life of CF keeping it runnning is, by itself, a job of balance and keeping the world together.

Couldn't get into discworld. Deathstalker was sooo much better. Also, have you ever read Scott Lynch?

Two completely different authors.

OMG I love Simon R Green. The Deathstalker series is a long time favorite of mine, along with the Nightside books. Sadly, I don't love the Drood series. I can never find anyone who thinks he's as awesome as I do.

And no on Scott Lynch. Should I?

Hence the discworld reference, not a sword of truth one.

Scott Lynch's books are a long time favorite of mine, I think if you enjoyed Simon R. Green's style of prose filled with wit and elan, you'd love Scott Lynch's approach in the Lies of Locke Lamora and Red Seas under Red Skies. Beautifully written and surprisingly sophisticated, its been years since I've found a book I loved as much as Lies of Locke Lamora.

For me, Deathstalker was a masterpiece that was difficult to match, and I really got into the Nightside series as well. Believe it or not, what originally brought Green to my attention was actually the Hawk and Fisher/Forest Kingdom series.

In particular, the two blue moon books (Blue Moon Rising and Beyond the Blue Moon, the prequel and sequel to the Hawk and Fisher setting in Haven) are my favorite Green books of all time.

I thought the Drood Secret Histories offerings were rather mediocre compared to his previous ones. Still worth a light read, but not much more than that. A little too much gimmick and not enough plot substance there. And his most recent new series - the ghost finders one? I was horribly disappointed by that. Couldn't get into it at all. Still has his snappy prose, but just zero interest.

I've got a whole pile I could probably recommend you after Scott Lynch, if you ever get around to it.

/thread derail

Have you read Down Among the Dead Men or Blood and Honor? I've always wanted to write an area for CF based on the castle of chaos, crazyness coming out of the walls. Such an awesome imagination he has. I have an ancient copy of Down Among the Dead Men but I lost my precious copy of Blood and Honor, absconded by an unjust ex boyfriend and I haven't been able to track a 'new' one down.

Shadows Fall still rests faithfully on my Favorite Book List.

I actually have Lies of Locke Lamora and Red Seas under Red Skies on my bookshelf. Guess it's time to liberate them!

And it is awesome. If you want a good one, try Guards Guards.

...called Small Gods. It's set in Discworld but you really don't have to have read any other Discworld stuff to read it.

It gives you an awesome perspective when it comes to playing an Imm on CF. Or at least, it gave *me* one.

Small gods is good but not as funny as the others.

If Nexus didn't exist, those people who play it would have to pick other cabals. As Daevryn said, dealing with them as a Fortie sucks ass, cause you have to pretty much always give them the first strike. They are free to ruin your day, but you can't necessarily go to their cabal and tear them a new one even if they deserve it. I'd rather have the game comprised of identifiable enemies so that at any given time everyone has someone to fight, if they so choose. Nexus ruins that. Also, like Outlander it seems like the cabal is mostly full of gear-lockers who want to minimize their risks, hence rolling neutral in the first place.


Good vs. Evil
Maran vs. Empire, Scion, & random evils

Order vs. Chaos
Tribunal & Empire vs. Outlander, Ragers (depends on in-game policies, which is fine), and random rabble rousers

Anti-Magic vs. Magic
BattleRagers vs. Scion and...Nexus?


But, Nexus is primarily about Balance, right? So...Balance favors magic? Why would true balance favor one thing over another? That makes no sense to me.

I actually would have a MUCH better time coping with the idea of Nexus if it were a very small cabal, like Scion, with the kind of "mastermind" complex where a few, powerful individuals pull the strings to keep things balanced. It's never played out that way, and more resembles a freeking army dedicated to this almost intangible, grandiose ideal of global harmony.

I think Nexus should not = Neutral Masters of the Five Magics. They should be two separate things.

I'm totally going to play Nexan in future... I had one in ancient times before they got destroyed that one time.

I think for me it's several issues.

The encouraged ganking via the bond.

The "sometimes I'm your enemy"

I've talked about this before, but when you are getting ready for a 2 on 2 fight, or a 2 on 3 and the balance thinks you are tipping. So now the fight becomes 2 against 6 and what was going to be a cool fight just turns any defenders who try into a smear on the road.

The we can attack you when our duty calls for it, but if you attack us then the #### hits the fan. This isn't all the time or all characters, but even Puhg got in my grill a few times for killing nexuns.

A nexus bard I won't name walked right up to me, no words, fiended and proceeded to try to kill me. I wasn't in danger, but after I asked why he just said "you are tipping". I didn't even know he was nexus. Things like that stick in the brain as far as liking a character/cabal.

Number one for me however is I disagree with where the balance is often, and not always in my favor. Empire has been getting butt raped for months now and needs help badly and the balance doesn't reflect this. This is just one example.

I've played Nexus characters. I understand the pressures they are under, but when I'm not playing Nexus, I have a hard time dealing with people in the cabal. They are unreliable as allies, and since all non-nexus people can't see the balance, at any point they could be an enemy.

So, for me, it is the constantly not knowing whether I am being hunted by them or not that bothers me. I don't know if some sort of gecho for when the balance shifts would help with that or not, but I would feel a lot more comfortable asking for help when my side isn't in power if I knew I wasn't setting myself up for betrayal.

Finally, and this isn't something I've seen lately, but is something I've seen. If the balance is evil and orderly because the Empire is super strong, killing that lone evil scion (who is already down because Empire has their item) isn't really a step in the right direction for restoring balance IMHO, but it sure is easier than taking out a roving 8 man Empire ganksquad.

I think the core issue here is a lack of granularity in the balance gauge and the fact that a number of Nexuns just can't take the fight to the strongest characters because they are themselves not strong enough players. So every evil or good or chaotic gets lumped together, even though an individual chaotic might be at war with every other chaotic logged in, meaning his enemies have doubled and the Nexus which in other situations might be a balancing factor, is the opposite.

I haven't played Nexus, but I've fought against them for thousands of hours and here's my take.

Battle/Nexus relationships have it easy. There will never be a sense of betrayal and everything is totally straightforward. Due to this it's very easy to have excellent RP opportunities with your sworn enemy and I have done this a bunch, most notably with Eck and Allysia (whom I still consider to be the best character I've ever interacted with.)

I've played enough Villagers that if Nexuns wish to make a truce and sit down with me, I've been more than willing to do it, as I find that the well-justified Nexuns are some of the more interesting characters in the game. It's much more challenging to come up with a balance role than a good or evil role, simply because balance is so non-intuitive.

Also, Nexus tends to (or it seems to me) attract a fair amount of newbies for whatever reason. I think it's incumbent upon a good Villager to RP with these folks in between multi-killing them as they return again and again for the Key with the best of intentions.

All in all I've found Nexus to be a source of charming enemies and tough opponents.

However:

The concept of the cabal leaves me scratching my head a bit. I understand the idea of having everything in balance, but pressing magic into that mold seems like it was done just to elicit a full-time enemy for Battle. While they strive to keep Order/Chaos, Good/Evil and Magic in balance, they don't bother with the weather, economics, wolf populations or any of the other things that they might turn their attention to.

Additionally (and I know that this is a Graatchism) it's strange that the Fort doesn't hunt them. Think of it this way: If Fort succeeded in driving all the evil from Thera Nexus would be compelled to take up the mantle of Darkness, right? They'd have to start killing orphans en-masse, taking the orb, and allowing Jersey Shore to film on The Sea of Despair. Am I wrong? A similar argument could be made for Outlander's relationship with Nexus.

Long story short: I like Nexus. I like Nexuns, but glancing at their philosophy with anything more than a cursory examination leads to some conundrums. Also, if any of this reads crazy it's because I'm recovering from oral surgery and I'm a bit foggy.

Except the whole truce with them part.

I love Nexus, love its powers, love to do the dirty work...love the cabal imms...its a great time to be had if you're a nexan..

Just seems completely ridiculous to me.

Much of fort's primary cabal abilities are significantly less effective against Nexus. They also suffer from massive RP restrictions when fighting Nexus. Meanwhile, whenever Nexus fights Fort, Vanguard is practically in full swing, bonds don't exactly lose any effectiveness, and they are nearly unrestricted in any RP fashion.

Also, Forties are told explicitly to avoid killing Nexuns and are not allowed to take the key. No other neutral in the game can get away with repeatedly raiding Fortress and then be immune to any consequences a few hours later. Fort leaders have literally been uninducted for deciding to hunt Nexus.

So, in practicality, it looks something like this: huge fort swing -> lone nexuns avoid fortress -> fortress doesn't hunt them down. More nexuns log in -> nexuns get enough power to win fight -> nexuns suddenly gang down any fortie they can pick off and then steamroll over the rest.

Nexuns basically take all the advantage and none of the disadvantage. They don't have to fight if they don't want to, but can suddenly take a massive about-face when they have the power to win and are done with their other business.

From a leader standpoint, did the path I took for Nexus make it harder or easier for you as a Fortie?

was because I knew that the next time I logged in, RP restrictions would forbid me from hunting you, effectively giving you a free pass with all those shinies you took from my corpse and all that dignity you bashed from my face

From a leader standpoint, you were great. One of the better rhymes in my memory, and very good to the Fortress. Even so, it didn't really change anything. Fort is discouraged from killing any neutral, and twice as discouraged from killing any Nexus.

All that really happened was we had slightly more warning before the nexus gang rolled in to annihilate all the newbies and annoy all the vets.

We still couldn't really justify trying to pick off nexuns retrieving from battle or in otherwise less prepared, more vulnerable situations, which is really how most successful PK is done, especially with my build.

No logical reason has been given why Fortress doesn't erradicate the Nexus.

It's not a lot different from why Fort doesn't eradicate, say, Outlander or Tribunal.

In some kind of dystopian alternate CF in which you can't roll evil characters anymore and Nexus is fighting Fort 24/7/365 they probably would.

Black and white perspectives. It isnt a bad thing but there is always a lot more to it. The reason I play Tribunals is because of the inner turmoil of fighting goodies. Is it bad RP for me to do so within towns NO. Does it create something that you wouldnt get from other cabals yes. It is the reason I dont normally play evils. My evils normally dont give a flying $%^&.

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

Although I do not suffer from moral ambiguity, I am able to step back and look at things frowm various points of view.

It's just that, I have long ago set my mind on the fact that Nexus is a terrible cabal because of a dumb concept.

I don't mean to insult the creators or the fans of it, but the title of this post was "Why do people hate Nexuns?"

I am mearly giving my opinion, and for what it's worth, I have heard all the arguments against my point of view, as written above, before and I still stand by my assertion.

nt

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

Helping evils to any extent if light tips is good but once it tips too far then light needs fall or lose the item(s) they hold.

But that same dynamic goes for every other cabal in the game save for Herald... So you really only have other Nexus to really count on in a battle.

They wait til have enough to fight because like your current build they may not be able to do enough good or get screwed when fighting one, when it turns into fighting many with a simple cry(s). Or the common healer gate.

One thing that never really struck me is that more Forties don't feel sorry for Nexus rather than hate or dislike. Because there are great people out there in Fort, Tribunal, and Outlander that they can never truly be friends with cause they may have to kill them at some point.

Nexus never really has any allies (Outside their Cabal) because they must fight everyone at some point but at the same time they could end up being the ally to anyone given the right situation.

Sure you may wish revenge against them but that isn't really what being all mighty evil eradicator is about. Help and defend light, kill evil. Kinda like a real villager should hunt mages and only kill non-mage (uncaballed or non enemy cabal) who is with those mages while they are currently with them.


All Cabal Dynamics are pretty sound and they all have loopholes (so to speak) that make them annoying to play at times because you really may not supposed to hunt that neutral gnome that killed your squire sister who is now out of form and would be such an easy kill right now. But sure it's possible if you really weren't the goodie, evil hating, guy/gal that you are that knows they aren't the real threat to your goal in life.


My favorite loophole is that when magic is so strong that Nexus avoids trying to kill or runs from villagers because they don't want them to die.

If Vanguard is in full swing against a Fortie, then the Forties are already kciking the #### out of their real enemies. So now the Fortress gets to fight a battle that maybe isn't horribly boring. They don't get to be kings of the mud because ten fortress heroes choose this time of day, every day, to make their normal playing time. That's a feature, not a bug.

As for the complaints of ganking, well, at least the playerbase can look up to the Fortress as a bastion of not walking around in gank squads, right? And thankfully none of the Fortress members with gate ever use it, and the Maran don't get a cabal power that is incredibly useful for producing 2 or 3 on one ganks when one member of the cabal finds an enemy and the others are literally areas away.

Thank.

The Light.

I think ganking is a part of the game for a reason. Not everyone builds for a/b/s despoil or resist and deathblow. Nexus and Fort are two of the most gank-heavy cabals in the game: both have powers which revolve around teamwork and facilitate ganging people down with competent buddies.

I just don't like it that Fort aren't allowed to gank back, if you will. So basically, Nexus->Fort interaction is a one-way gank alley, where Nexus ganks Fort and return ganks from Fort just don't happen.

If the Nexuns have a reason to be hunting Fortress at all, then there should be enough Forties around to make what goes down a group on group battle, not a gank. If you and your five to ten hero buddies see a bunch of Nexuns on, well, you're probably going to be tipping the Balance. Maybe, in that case, Forties need to think about how it might be dangerous to be walking around the world all by their lonesome.

If its a matter of there just being too many damn Nexuns, then that's a pendulum issue in my opinion, not a design flaw.

Played all of one Nexus char, generally hated the cabal. Until I played one. Then I actually enjoyed it, but I also realized just how foolish so many people's approach is to that cabal when they are outside it. I would find myself just amazed at how prideful, I guess that's the word, these people would be. Is the problem that we took your item once, or was it we bitch slapped you earlier and your ego can't handle it? Allysia was one tough little woman for a lot of people to fight, and she'd fight with anyone for anyone. Generally, you'd think that's the person you'd want on your side when it was offered. Imperials and scions sure as hell took advantage of it. Tribunals would too. Outlander and fort though, strike their inner one time and you're essentially outcast from them. They do it to themselves, so the complaints about them get tiring.

Biggest problem I see is how other cabals interact with Nexus. Nexus is still going to come at you when it is called for. If you don't want us to aid you when you're out of power, that's fine, but that's your choice. Fort and outlander were notorious for this- as Allysia anytime any of them would actually bother asking for help when offered, I'd have jumped right in with them. But most everytime I'd ask (when things actually swayed- which most people think they know what the balance should be but without gauge were actually wrong about 50% of the time) the response was no, I hate you, you've struck us before, we don't need you. I can't force you to work with me, so I just said to hell with it and go about my business and see what I can do on my lonesome.

Evils don't care about the past, they're pragmatic so will work together with Nexus anytime it suits their ends. Fort hamstrings themselves by NOT letting the past go. Outlander did this as well. And if you want to hurt your own cabal it's your choice, but it's a flaw in the leadership/RP of fort and any other cabal to actively refuse the aid of nexus when it is offered based on the past. think of us as mercenaries for hire if you want. Sometimes, even the righteous need a little help in a fight.

I would never run head first into suicide against three or four enemies for the sake of the balance- it doesn't serve balance to just get yourself killed. I also made sure the Islanders knew that as well. Do what you can, try to do more, but don't be an idiot about it was my general policy. If I have the numbers to make an honest go, I would. Against any cabal in power, not just fort. When I didn't I did somewhat dumber things, such as encouraging a Tiamat run and joining in and getting subsequently booted.

Perceptions are subject to the realities of the CF environment. Lots of people play light, so light generally sways more often. There are rarely strong scion numbers, and even more rarely strong scion & imperial numbers. Fort numbers however, are pretty consistent. Light sways more often unless there is a Tavlin or some other powerful evil around- or say mass imperial log ins or a full awake council. Those things have not happened for a long time.

I also had the joy of running in with two or three fort people against five imperials, and literally watching the hilarity of that fight as I died and the fort people ran. I was still relatively inexperienced in PK at the time, but even to me I could see it was just horrible execution and what was worse was I went into it knowing full well we had about a 5% chance of survival, forget success. I knew I'd probably die, but hey, that's part of the job. I went, died, got looted a bit, and just kept on going.

But then you could take Argorok and I, by this point I pretty much had my build mastered and he had his, so just the two of us became pretty much unstoppable against a high % of the playerbase when we were together. We steamrolled quite literally everybody we fought because bard + invoker just does that when bonded. We could repel 4 or 5 villagers with ease. It didn't matter if it was five or two of them. People make choices when and how they fight, and that fort powers are not designed to fight Nexus is not really relevant. Cabal powers are not all any class has to offer in a fight.

In essence you say we steamrolled fort, I see it as fort gets themselves steamrolled by how they fight. And still, looking back, I killed an impressive six fort people in my entire char life. Compared to 166 battle. The truth was, the only people Nexus consistently goes to town against is Battle, and given the general PK success of most Nexus chars, even this is pretty rare. We generally get it far worse than we give it. That Puhguly, Chulun Allysia, Tiria and zenze all happened to be around in a relatively short period and had moderate PK success is much more the exception than the rule when it comes to Nexus PK numbers.

At least in my opinion.

Just to make this clear, I don't actually hate the nexus cabal nor do I hate any particular nexuns in it. I don't consider nexus unfun or bad for the game. I just think that its really freaking annoying to deal with nexus from the fort side.

>Biggest problem I see is how other cabals interact with Nexus. Nexus is still going to come at you when it is called for. If you don't want us to aid you when you're out of power, that's fine, but that's your choice.

>it's a flaw in the leadership/RP of fort and any other cabal to actively refuse the aid of nexus

Well, no, its an RP restriction. I consider Fort grouping with Nexus (especially nexus who just slew their friends and sworn allies a few days ago) to be #### RP, on the level of outlanders arguing points of law with tribunal. It's basically powergaming: So I'm just going to ignore all your past and future sins for the sake of more conveniently gathering shinies and ganging down my enemies today? Evil might get away with it, but I have a hard time envisioning even the nicest fortie allowing that.

>I would never run head first into suicide against three or four enemies for the sake of the balance- it doesn't serve balance to just get yourself killed.

Sure, I agree wholeheartedly. I'd do the same thing in your place. But you can see why this results in Nexus only fighting favorable engagements against the Fortress, while Fort is strictly forbidden from striking back on favorable terms against the Nexus, right?

>In essence you say we steamrolled fort, I see it as fort gets themselves steamrolled by how they fight. And still, looking back, I killed an impressive six fort people in my entire char life. Compared to 166 battle.

Well, you yourself admit you steamrolled fort. From my perspective, Nexus steamrolled fort quite often. I'm actually okay with that: I don't reall mind and I think I'd do the same in your place. Its really more of a question of how Fort can steamroll you back. Which I don't think ever happened, despite nexuns killing numerous forties and raiding successfully numerous times.

And while I think Allysia was a stunning achievement of a bard, I don't think your PK numbers are particularly relevant to the discussion. Naturally, you'd find it easier to kill loads of battle who have ####ty escape mechanisms than loads of fort, who can just quaff away, especially considering battle was your 24/7 enemy and fort was sort of that whipping boy you could bring out whenever you were bored

"I just think that its really freaking annoying to deal with nexus from the fort side."
Yeah, certainly is, but I think that's a good thing. It's part of the fort RP dynamic. And though there are some people that think fort should just be about eradicating everything that isn't them and that might someday pose a problem, I never see it that way. I had a hell of a long talk with Puhg for example, after I rolled up my fort bard, about those things.

"It's basically powergaming."
I also don't see it that way. If fort is all about the greater good of the light, and nexus is willing to help you get back your orb and maybe slay a few scions or imperials in the process, I fail to see why it could not be embraced. Take it as an opportunity to preach, to engage them, to try and convert them. It's a golden chance to understand and interact with them. I don't see grouping with people as an act of acceptance, forgiveness or condoning what they do. It's an opportunity, and people make of it what they will. Lots of imperials I grouped with offered me the oath for example.

"while Fort is strictly forbidden from striking back on favorable terms against the Nexus"
I saw some fort people come after us, and yeah, it's not usually favorable to them and may have IC consequences. But, those are the restrictions of the cabal. People throw fits when battle go after non-cabal enmies and non-mages. You have drawbacks in a cabal, and if you ignore the cabal's principles you're going to end up in trouble eventually. In fort, it's not being a zealot against nexus, plain and simple. And so you know, I got summoned & cranialed to death by Athioles and a shaman as I was walking down Eastern. When light had ceased tipping, but I did not tell them that, not that I think they wouldn't have done it anyway. So you can strike back. Maybe not wage all out war is all. I imagine if you know light is tipping, you will not get in as much trouble for being proactive against them.

"Its really more of a question of how Fort can steamroll you back."
Fort can steamroll Nexus, just have to do it the right way. If you know light tips, you know they'll likely come, and a strong defense can effectively tear apart any group. And sometimes, you just have to avoid the fight. Certain people are bad matchups, but Eachainn + Vallinane can effectively beat the hell out of lots of bonded nexus pairs I'd wager.

"fort was sort of that whipping boy you could bring out whenever you were bored "
Hey, I loved me some fort people, and I was rarely overly aggressive against you guys I felt. I even gave Fort a try but I admit the cabal itself is not for me really with my play style, I tend to be a bit more of a run around alone exploring type than anything where Fort seemed like one big happy family. Allysia was a huge exception in terms of my willinginess to PK instead of just leave people alone, I'm about one of the most non-pk oriented players out there I feel like.

I rarely whipped on you guys by the way, that's why I said the PK numbers. They are more of an example of how rarely I personally went after you guys, cause really none of you made a habit of bothering me. I thought Allysia and Vallinane got along overly well, in spite of the tension between their ideologies, and I think that makes for interesting RP at least, even if it does provide some PK related frustrations. I know others were far more aggressive, but that's a playstyle thing. Some Nexus people are just softer than others I guess

When I play Fort, I find Nexus frustrating to deal with, but if I'm honest, if Nexus wasn't trying to kill me in those situations I'd really have nothing to do.

I seem to spend more time fighting non-evil Battle as a Fort non-mage and even more time fighting non-evil Outlander as a Fort non-conjurer-non-dwarf-non-paladin than I do fighting Nexus, but maybe that's not everyone's experience. It's rare for me to play Fort for long if Fort is *really* dominating -- I get bored.

.

nt

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

You can start up a group with two nexuns with say a Scion char or an evil outlander, balance tips in the middle of lvling or exploring and poof, your group is gone, in worst case they just say: Balanced changed. "kill @targetscion/outlander". Which is annoying more than it's dangerous since it is quite rare with good PK-heavy nexuns compared to other cabals.

+ I rarely see super awesome RP from the cabal, it's more rare to see great RP from Nexuns (And tribunals) than any other cabal in my opinion. But also, there is less douchbaggery in Nexun than in most cabals so I guess that's a good thing.

I've never played a nexun, finding it hard to write up a role that interests me, though I have several different class/race builds that would be AWESOME for a Nexun because of their kickass cabal powers.

But if I don't have a good role, there's no point.

I really should get around to it someday. Actually got an idea right now, so we'll see if it'll be in two chars or so. (Have another role idea I wanna try out first anyways.)

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

There are some amazing characters that go through it, but due to the dynamics of it that you listed, you are hard pressed to see much of the RP side unless you are in the Cabal.

Also, Nexus powers are not nearly as amazing as people give them credit for. Vanguard is good, bond is good. You cannot use both at the same time though. I think that almost every other cabal has better powers for the majority of classes.

The mud doesn't distrust Nexuns to the extent that mages distrust the Village, but a large amount of characters will go Pro-lite on a character once they find he's Nexun. Unless, of course, they'd make a good ranking partner. Then its okay. This does tend to result in the cabal being a bit insular, and therefore a lot of the roleplay ends up playing out within the cabal walls.

Have to say I do love me some Nexus powers. Vanguard is some excellent, excellent damage reduction. And the right bond can be insane. Luckily, the restrictions on when bond is giving you the juice can be pretty annoying, so it balances out.

I'd say at least two thirds of my characters roll Nexun. Their powers rock, and at some point or another you get to fight everyone. In some ways they're like the Battle cabal; your only real allies are usually going to be your cabalmates, because at some point you'll be gunning for everyone else.

Its valid to never trust a Nexun, but I think its a bit silly to hate them as a player. I mean, I mostly play mages, but I don't hate the Village because their powers are tailor made to kill my characters and they never stop trying to do just that.

There are also many, many valid roles for a Nexun. You can be a warrior who just wants the opportunity to fight the worlds strongest people, whoever they might be, because you want to prove how badass you are. You can be a mage or priest who genuinely believes that their goals are best served with having all sides of the alignment spectrum equally represented in the world. Plenty of valid roles, and frankly, if you can't think of or acknowledge them, you need to stretch out your imagination some.

You don't even need to be a murderdeathkill Nexun. I had a transmuter once who was fond of picking a lowbie group or even just one character of the losing side and powerranking them.

There's no way around that fact.

I feel it's a stupid concept, I don't like it, so I don't support it. And I do what ever I can do to wipe them out.

Gnome tells you, "Gorpu?"

You tell Gnome, "Are you a Nexun?"

Gnome tells you, "Not yet."

You tell Gnome, "No."

ignore gnome

#setarg gnome

#alias 1 = Shieldbash Gnome
#alias 2 = co flamestrike Gnome
#alias 3 = get all corpse (This could be as much for me as them.)

I honestly do not understand that viewpoint. But I guess whatever works for you.

Please keep in mind the forum rules about not attacking posters. Yes, these rules apply to everyone.

Because I do not RP with Nexus.

I really do dislike the cabal concept that much.

Even though you inducted my one and only Nexun, which, if I do say so myself, had a pretty bad ass Role. 2k worth I think. Been a while since you lived so long.

Dang, good thing this isn't a rp required mud, or that might seem a little ridiculous. Please, share some more fantastic roleplaying tips with us?

A Battlerager is standing here.
The corpse of a Nexun is here.
A Battlerager leaves east.

get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
get 1. corpse
dro 1.
sac 1.
butcher corpse
get 1.
get 1.
eat 1.
eat 1.
sac 1.
sac 1.

A Nexun has arrived.
A Nexun looks at you.
A Nexun says, 'Did you take all my things."
ignore nexun
e
e
e
e
tell Battlerager Good job!
e
e
e
e
###################################################################
If you read this far, the above was a joke. I don't mean I'll multi-kill anyone. But I won't interact with Nexuns when at all possible. I'm not really going to #### on you if you are a Nexun, but I would like to.

Obviously I am joking because that is a waste of my time.

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

Gorpu?

gr

Damn Nexus

The gauge balance or whatever checks the whole MUD too, it seems, rather than just the pk range of the player? I may be wrong, but it seems like...if you are one evil with 10 goodies on in hero, its possible the Nexus dude can help them because there are 31 lowbie duergar on.

It sucks though when your supposed ally you ranked with for 10 ranks turns around next login and attacks you. Normally thats griefer behavior, with Nexus, its the design of the cabal.

Its the one cabal I truly truly hate with a passion more than any other.