It's not too easy to get. Actually, I'd be 'Ok' with some of the unique items being easier to get because then someone like me could get it. As a paladin, I just refuse to ask a group of people to help me get a sword, so I miss out. The harder you make it to get actually the more 'cheaterish' the people who get it will be. Trust me on this, if it's possible to get, people will game the system to get it - making it harder to get is not the correct answer.

For example, there's now a very cheap edge that let's you flee when waterbreathing gets dispelled.

... which no one ever takes.

Just sayin'.

If we had all-time rankings of CON lost in pursuit of single items, Defiance would hold the #1 spot and nothing else would be even close.

Yes yes, i admit that I've posted based on misinfo and i was wrong. I will not bring it up again about defiance until i make a pally and check it out by myself

But about other extremely powerful things - cyclo eye, ex-dragonscale pendant, armageddon, zurcon, girdle with ethereal flames - my opinion is the same: extremely easy for such valuable things. Those things shouldn't be gathered solo. You can shot me again for having opinion not matching yours, i'm getting used to it

Part of the beauty of having a high level powerful character is being able to go get shiny things that make your character even more powerful.

That you list the etched dragonscale pendant as something that is too easy to gather is hugely identifying of your lack of understanding (or maybe you're trolling?) - that item sat for 2 or 3 years without anyone, no matter how large or skilled a group, being able to get it. The group that DID get it spend hours in preparation and still lost at least one party member, and was one or two nasty rounds away from failing completely.

I could give examples of how difficult the other items on your list are to get - Hunsobo, for instance, couldn't gather Armageddon alone at hero even with Emperor powers - but I'm not going to.

You should probably just move along.

(Which is probably not called that anymore.) I can't imagine any char in CF history being able to solo the current mob for the etched dragonscale pendant.

ntntnt

Actually, i was speaking of it's new form, just didn't want to post it here. I've killed that guy solo with two different chars.

Etched - completely agree with you.

Shifters (specifically cheetah + regen form) can be some of the best mob-killers in the game.

And found this old imm comment on an old premium.
Sun Mar 19 01:42:37 2006 by 'Drokalanatym' at level 51 (261 hrs):
Led a group to try to get Defiance. After 21 (twenty-one!!) deaths, they gave up. To be fair, that isn't Saroiya's fault IMHO... it's just noteworthy as a bloodbath to end all bloodbaths.

Yeah, I can't think of anything that even comes close to getting people killed like that.

Whole parties have died trying to get the sword. Paladins have also been unempowered for letting groupmates die trying to obtain a sword. I probably shouldn't say why, but let me just say a thief CANNOT (if I could make that bigger I would) go get it. That said, it is a nice weapon. However it doesn't make anyone a wrecking ball, compared to let's say Hunsobo, Blitzenturt, and some of the scion conjurers. (of course there are many others, but you get the idea.)

By a thief player, who claimed thief still can get it alone. Maybe he was wrong, dunno.

The general idea not about only defiance. I think that many, many overpowered weapons are too easy to get.

About hell weapons that are better than defiance - that's fine, they are in hell and it's already makes them not too easy to get.

I think you got the idea, rant is over.

P.S. Dear imms! Don't be so agressive in defense please. I did not want to offend any of you - it was just a comment and opinion, nothing else. Maybe i shouldn't use 'rant' word Sorry if it sounded too agressive.

The problem is that people who make such blanket statements have rarely seen the otherside of the argument. As people have said, have you ever played a high level paladin with Defiance? Or had to go get Defiance? I think it's just important to have both sides of the story before proposing a "rant" (in your words).

And we took defiance quite easily while Leika and Balrahd did play, i think with one of them. But they were tough guys, so probably i have a wrong impression how easy it is?

After that, i've seen thieves making it easy. But no, i don't think my pally had defiance (though i had him 6-7 years ago and maybe he had).

So, you want to say that with the thief, able to steal key/pick the chest it is still very difficult, did i get right?

You're ranting that something was too easy 6-7 years ago?

The key you're thinking of cannot be stolen.

There's no chest to pick. There is a door.

You can't get to the door without fighting a great deal of mobs.

YES a talented group that includes a thief that has the build you're referring to CAN get Defiance in a way that is much easier than without. But you're inferring there is no risk involved and that is just grossly inaccurate.

I lead a group (with a thief like you mentioned) to get Defiance one day as Brom. We got to where we needed to, nobody had died. It took us about an hour I think, with the prepping and all.

Then one of our party did something that I can't really call a bonehead move - they didn't know any better and *I* should have told them about it - and Defiance vanished before I could pick it up (I was weakened from the fight to get there and was trying to drop something so I could pick it up.

So then no Defiance for me until I could gather the right ensemble again, which took a few days IRL.

Thanks for detailed answer though, now everything is much more clear.

Man what I wouldn't have given to be there for that.

I remember getting stoneform with Mekantos and Krilcov once and me and Mek wanting to brutally murder Krilcov for his idiocy. Though in our situation Krilcov only got himself killed.

Personally I found it easier to get defiance without having an invoker. Or if I had an invoker I likely asked them to do something they were not expecting when I brought them along.

But only a paladin can touch defiance without it blowing up. Hence a thief can't get it alone.

They changed it. You used to be able to die, run to the door as a ghost, and pick it, and the paladin could get it. That is impossible now. They made that entire side of the area flagged No-ghost. You have to fight through all the warrior, priest and shaman mobs to get there, and trust me, no paladin is doing that solo. You need a competant group or you'll get curb stomped. It's fairly tough to get now.

There are at least 2 weapons in Hell that make Defiance look like a pop gun.

>As i understand (please correct me if i am wrong) defiance
>can be gathered by the thief (properly builded) without any
>fight at all.

You're wrong. On many counts.


>I think that for such powerful weapon (actually, most powerful
>weapon in the game that i know), it's a bit too easy, no?
>
>Yes, you can say: "but there must be theif in the game". I can
>answer: it's not a problem for vets, who knows each other,
>having skypes/msn of each other to come to such agreement.
>
>Summary: my opinion, such powerful weapons must be gathered
>not so easily, but with effort - like humnsunders.
>
>Actually, same goes for the unholy sword of zurcon: it's
>absolutely easy to gather. Same goes for Armageddon, though a
>bit more difficult. Probably there are other amazing weapons
>that are too easy to gather?
>
>And Enopold's playground... I can (and did) solo clear it with
>two different hero characters. Imho, too easy for things that
>can be gahtered there.
>
>Main idea of this post: uberpowerful items shouldn't come so
>easy. But especially - defiance And yes... i played pally
>and probably will play again eventually, but i wouldn't mind
>if it will require in game efforn to get it, instead of ooc
>effor to convince some buddy to roll a thief to gather it

Play a paladin who is super awesome with Defiance and then, afterward, complain about how easy it is to get.

The Cyradia factor

>Yes, you can say: "but there must be theif in the game". I can
>answer: it's not a problem for vets, who knows each other,
>having skypes/msn of each other to come to such agreement.

If you're going to make such a silly generalization about "vets", then what difference would it make if the "uber gear" was a little harder to get?

Also, if I had a buddy who liked me enough to roll, rank, and otherwise play my bitch-boy thief, I'd set loftier goals than Defiance.

Lags enemy, dispels, hurts, nodisarm, removes maladictions...

Honestly, a paladin with defiance is completely different to a paladin without.

With most other weapons, the character will either be strong already or will not.

And you can't really deny that with a thief, getting defiance is not nearly as difficult. So much so that if you are ooc buddies with the right kind of thief, you can just get it again each time you lose it.

gr

Serious question: what weapon is "more of a game changer" than defiance?

Heartseeker? Thunderlance? Screaming demon mace? Pincer staff? Eagle-inscribed staff? Staff of striking?

I can see eagle-inscribed being a bigger deal, but that's about it. Staff of striking is huge for healers, but mostly just them.

Zubei obviously proved that.

Fauchard of Mammon. It wont lag you, but will beat your butthole.

Two more hell weapons that I wont mention.

Heartseeker is nice, don't get me wrong.

Bar'Talon
Humansunder
A certain non-Hell axe
Quite a lot of Hell items

I'd rate those over defiance.

Bal'talon is nothing compared with defiance, imho. I don't even consider bal'talon a threat when I face people with it.

Humansunder... it's nodisarm, but it only procs damage. Not dispel and removing of maladictions etc.

I'm assuming you're talking about a certain soul-draining axe, when you say "non-hell". That, I would class up there with defiance. But how often is it in relative to defiance?

Hell... you've switched to talking about items. We were talking about weapons. I can't think of a hell weapon that I'd rate over defiance, apart from the fact that only half of one class actually has a use for defiance.

Come to think of it, I reckon Lhydia's comment about defiance not being a game changer probably relates to shield specs. On a 2h dedicant, it's a game changer.

Hell is currently closed, so we might exclude those based on that. Even if not, though, how often are they in circulation compared to Defiance? I'd estimate that Defiance is in circulation maybe...50% of the time, if not more?

Humansunder? Really? You'd rather have Humansunder on your shield paladin that Defiance?

It can be used by non-paladins, though, as can Bal'talon. Do you think Bal'talon or Humansunder juices a sword spec more than Defiance juices a shield paladin?

By the way, I'm not really part of the "complain about Defiance" crowd. It's a big deal, but other things (not weapons) are more of a big deal.

I don't mind the existence of defiance, apart from some of the bad rp it inspires from time to time.

I think you're crazy if you think Bal'Talon or Humansunder is better for a paladin than Defiance.

But I guess I missed the ball of that being the point of the weapon-epeen comparison. I meant them as a "gamechanger".

I think Defiance is more of a gamechanger than any of the others, by far.

To put it another way - I'd have a pretty big problem, game-balance-wise, if a sword went into the game that was usable by anyone (or even anyone good, or whatever) that did what Defiance does.

That it is useful only for Paladins is what makes it balanced, IMO.

If it was nodisarm, then it might be, but since it isn't...
a) it's usually one a weak race, where strength loss can be used to drop it,
b) it can be dropped with kotegaeshi
c) it can be weaponbroke

I've gotten eagle inscribed staff a hand full of times, at least once solo. Therefore it cannot possibly be all that powerful.

Eagle marked can buff up a transmuter a lot. Thunderlance or a pincer staff can do quite a bit for pole specs.

But I'd have to say I agree that generally no single weapon increases a character's toughness than defiance does for a paladin. But I'd also say no single class outside of healers are as non-threatening as paladins in PK because of their lack of kill sealing ability. Paladins are just trucks. Just have to know when to fight them and when to get out of their way.

The one issue I do have with defiance is if you do kill the paladin with it, getting rid of it may kill you, but the person doing it generally has to take that chance. Also, paladins with it tend to play a lot more conservatively, because they know if they die they will lose it. So this can work to other people's favor.

Humansunder, thunderlance, eagle marked, whatever it is- there are lots of nice weapons you will always lose when you die. The difference is the person taking it does not risk their own lives by taking them, and other people can actually make use of those things. Maybe a marked paladin dies to a trib paladin, but that is about the only situation I can think of where defiance gets looted. But if a paladin loses it, the paladin can just wait around, and soon enough they will get it again. Though I do think lots and lots of people die trying to get it, and the changes to make it harder to acquire are a good thing.

Ultimately, a paladin with defiance is still just a paladin. They can be harder to deal with than other paladins, but still lack real kill sealing ability. And pally's with it tend to think they are tougher than they really are. Two people can gang down a paladin pretty easily. Just have to hope someone has enough life at the end to destroy the thing and not die themselves.

As a whole though, even with defiance, how many truly deadly paladins have their been? There has been 2 paladins that had over 100 pks. (and dupmasione probably would have been 3)
The only class with less is healer.

So I don't buy that paladins become deadly just because of defiance. They just become slightly harder to deal with, and that is not necessarily a bad thing for the class. I'd rather fight a competent maran pally with defiance instead of a competent scion transmuter with eagle marked 99 times out of 100, except maybe with a duergar.

As a general remark though, no single weapon makes a char beastly, I don't care how good the weapon is, so the difficulty in obtaining certain ones compared to others doe not bother me. It's a combination of player skill in knowing how to get the most from their build and their entire set of gear that makes people tough, not that they have defiance/eaglemarked/humansunder or whatever.

I've used it for 00s of hours and I've given it away a couple of times.

With defiance I was able to take the codex from 4 imperials with my 2h dedicant temperance elf. Without... nope. Not even close.

It's largely because defiance is so good that some paladins are also willing to do some fairly shady stuff to get it. I was actually glad that I was playing a champion last time I played a paladin so that I didn't have to worry about the temptation to do likewise. I stopped getting it myself ever since an attempt went wrong and killed one of my group.

>I've used it for 00s of hours and I've given it away a couple
>of times.

Ditto.


>With defiance I was able to take the codex from 4 imperials
>with my 2h dedicant temperance elf. Without... nope. Not
>even close.

Ditto (shield, but otherwise the same).

>It's largely because defiance is so good that some paladins
>are also willing to do some fairly shady stuff to get it. I
>was actually glad that I was playing a champion last time I
>played a paladin so that I didn't have to worry about the
>temptation to do likewise. I stopped getting it myself ever
>since an attempt went wrong and killed one of my group.

I'll never give up leading groups to get Defiance as a paladin who can make use of it, but I know what you're saying. Sometimes that *need* to have it can almost lead you to foolishness (which can get your group killz0rred many times over), and you've got to resist that temptation. Which means only going for it with a group that really has a better-than-average chance of getting it without anyone dying.

>only going for it with a group that really has a
>better-than-average chance of getting it without anyone
>dying.

Yeah, but if you're someone who doesn't know all the specifics of how to get it? I wouldn't feel bad as "that guy" leading a group down there, assuming all of them knew the risk involved.

Otherwise you're saying that only paladins with OOC knowledge of exactly what they need to do in order to safely get Defiance should be leading groups to get it. Which seems...lame.

>>only going for it with a group that really has a
>>better-than-average chance of getting it without anyone
>>dying.
>
>Yeah, but if you're someone who doesn't know all the specifics
>of how to get it? I wouldn't feel bad as "that guy" leading a
>group down there, assuming all of them knew the risk
>involved.
>
>Otherwise you're saying that only paladins with OOC knowledge
>of exactly what they need to do in order to safely get
>Defiance should be leading groups to get it. Which
>seems...lame.

I should have clarified that I was speaking of how paladins that *I* play generally treat Defiance. I have no problems with someone who is clearly new to CF/new to paladins/new to getting Defiance taking a group and trying it. But really, getting a group of heroes who would be willing to try is almost certainly going to somehow involve a vet who has experience in such matters, don't you think?

I think you'd probably need someone who is at least moderately experienced with the game in general, though perhaps not specifically in "how to get Defiance".

For example, beyond the rough basics I personally have no idea how to go about doing it and all the micro-strategies people use to make it safer and more doable. If I led a party down there we'd probably all die. The first time, at least. Hopefully I/we would learn from it and be able to succeed on successive tries.

As an explore char just back to the game, I died twice looking at the entrance to the defiance path. Seems the closed a few loop holes since last time I was here. It used to be MUCH easier to get that damn sword. So on planning the safest possible retrieval, I'd love a voker, bard, healer, thief, paladin. We still managed to get Irsuan killed at 49 but I would argue this was Morin and Gleebroks fault for playing who's the best tank. Morin then lost the sword within a day(ish). Was it worth organising again... not really. I think with just a thief and a paladin who know what they are doing, no scratch that, you need two tanks and the thief, minimum, assuming you are going to play the survival game vs the kknd.... its no tiamat.

I find it interesting that you would compare the difficulty of getting humansunder and defiance. That being said its by and large more common to brute force for defiance than use the thief technique. Mostly due to the general availability of a thief with the requisite skill set (and if you don't die you still have to fight)

The sword of zurcon has a really nasty side affect (like permanent character death) and the prog on the mob that holds it makes any fight with him a bit of a gamble (also you are ignoring the general difficulty of getting to the mob as well)

Armagedon is not that great unless you are a trapping warrior. The weight makes you vulnerable to dropping it.

>I find it interesting that you would compare the difficulty
>of getting humansunder and defiance. That being said its by
>and large more common to brute force for defiance than use the
>thief technique. Mostly due to the general availability of a
>thief with the requisite skill set (and if you don't die you
>still have to fight)

You can no longer die and walk right past those things that are difficult, btw. Ghosts fear to tread there, now. Just FYI.