Imms are people too.

they upped the lower end of the spectrum so orc now is like felar of 3 years ago.

d

...you people?

But yes, please, make skills improve faster.

I feel like the ones that get used in PK are fine. The others are usually okay with a bit of spamming, but you don't have to go overboard.

This was one hour of doing nothing but spam and sleep with the same character, another skill (that I tried to use in pk but died because it kept failing. It failed six times in a row in PK and a retrieval attempt)

20 int (18 natural)
Fail	Attemp	%suc	TotFa	TotA	%suc(A)	Imprs	TotImp	ImprRatios	Skill%	Success%
3	15	80.0%	3	15	80.0%		0	0	0.0%		79	80.0%
1	15	93.3%	4	30	86.7%		0	0	0.0%		79	86.7%
4	15	73.3%	8	45	82.2%		1	1	2.2%		80	82.2%
1	15	93.3%	9	60	85.0%		1	2	3.3%		81	85.0%
4	15	73.3%	13	75	82.7%		0	2	2.7%		81	82.7%
4	15	73.3%	17	90	81.1%		0	2	2.2%		81	81.1%
2	15	86.7%	19	105	81.9%		0	2	1.9%		81	81.9%
4	15	73.3%	23	120	80.8%		0	2	1.7%		81	80.8%
3	15	80.0%	26	135	80.7%		0	2	1.5%		81	80.7%
2	15	86.7%	28	150	81.3%		2	4	2.7%		83	81.3%
2	15	86.7%	30	165	81.8%		0	4	2.4%		83	81.8%
2	15	86.7%	32	180	82.2%		2	6	3.3%		85	82.2%
2	15	86.7%	34	195	82.6%		0	6	3.1%		85	82.6%
1	15	93.3%	35	210	83.3%		1	7	3.3%		86	83.3%
2	15	86.7%	37	225	83.6%		0	7	3.1%		86	83.6%
1	15	93.3%	38	240	84.2%		0	7	2.9%		86	84.2%
0	15	100.0%	38	255	85.1%		2	9	3.5%		88	85.1%

Maybe you're doing something wrong.

I get the feeling there are factors at work that make it impractical to go out and spend 2 hours spamming a skill to 100% right after you get it, doing nothing but work on that particular skill.

For instance...I could envision there being a system where learning rates for a skill are throttled until a character's game-hours exceed the level at which that skill can be learned.

The idea being: "We're not going to stop you from powering to hero in less than 50 hours, but we are going to stop you from doing that and perfecting all your skills."

It's annoying and counter-intuitive.

Basically here's the skinny :

1) When you first get a skill/spell, it doesn't improve as much as when you've had it for several ranks. I don't know if hours also have something to do with it but you will spam skills up faster when you've learned them 3-4 ranks earlier than the rank you're at now - compared with one at your current rank.

2) You need to switch areas after a while. You'll see improvements if you leave the area and go somewhere else.

3) Stay out of your guild. Stay out of your cabal.

4) The higher over your rank the NPC is the more you learn.

There are ways to game the system but its annoying. Your best bet, as usual, is to bribe a higher level char to help you do it on high rank mobs (like while they're ranking providing you flee out when its hurt), than to do it yourself. Alternatively wait til you get all your tanking skills so at least you can fight stronger mobs.

>It's annoying and counter-intuitive.
>
>Basically here's the skinny :
>
>1) When you first get a skill/spell, it doesn't improve as
>much as when you've had it for several ranks. I don't know if
>hours also have something to do with it but you will spam
>skills up faster when you've learned them 3-4 ranks earlier
>than the rank you're at now - compared with one at your
>current rank.

I don't think this is true.

>2) You need to switch areas after a while. You'll see
>improvements if you leave the area and go somewhere else.

I know this isn't true.

>3) Stay out of your guild. Stay out of your cabal.

Ditto.

>4) The higher over your rank the NPC is the more you learn.

That's true.

>There are ways to game the system but its annoying. Your best
>bet, as usual, is to bribe a higher level char to help you do
>it on high rank mobs (like while they're ranking providing you
>flee out when its hurt), than to do it yourself.

I'm pretty sure this doesn't actually work out to help you.

Don't know. This is what I learned from my last invoker. Its so noticeable that, either over the course of like 20 or so spells I just got hit all incredibly lucky/unlucky streaks or there's something even the great Nep doth not know.

>>bet, as usual, is to bribe a higher level char to help you
>do
>>it on high rank mobs (like while they're ranking providing
>you
>>flee out when its hurt), than to do it yourself.
>
>I'm pretty sure this doesn't actually work out to help you.

Unless your learning rates are specifically worse when you're casting on a mob targeting someone not in your group, what would this be based on? Do you learn less well if your spell is saved against or something? That seems completely whack, but I guess it's possible.

To good effect. I wacked a arial prisoner with my 11th level invoker and scooped up 1900+ exp.

I thought something was put out a while back stating spam in a guild had lower affects.

Security (however slight.) being the pay off for rapid gain.

I want to ascribe that to Zulghinlour.

Honestly, if I want security I'm not going to spam in my guild. It's better than sitting on eastern road, but there's still lots of ways you can die. I'd rather camp in some really, really out of the way area.

And a lot of newbies like the guilds. And Magistrates use them since it let's them stay on duty.

So was I wrong Nep? Can you spam in guilds?

First 4 levels after you get new spell/commune/perhaps song this spell/commune/perhaps song cost you more mana (on a sliding scale).

For example:
at 15 level you get spell X and it costs you 30 mana
at 16 level spell X costs you 25 mana
at 17 level spell X costs you 20 mana
at 18 level and any higher level spell X costs you 15 mana.

Because of this it takes you more time to improve new spell/commune/perhaps song first 4 levels after you get this new spell/commune/perhaps song.

>This was one hour of doing nothing but spam and sleep with
>the same character, another skill (that I tried to use in pk
>but died because it kept failing. It failed six times in a row
>in PK and a retrieval attempt)

Which skill? I ask because some skills are intentionally harder to improve than others.

>Now that's just ONE skill that I use ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

What do you use it ON? Things 5 levels lower than you? Things 5 levels above you? It makes a difference (a big one).

>Using the above as a means to measure expected progress for my
>other spells I can anticipate 7-14 hours to get them to 90%.
>All in all, it's looking like the time sink that is CF is
>eating the fun I could be having elsewhere and I really don't
>forsee me playing CF after this summer. Right now I'm just
>trying to save money so I stay home a lot and CF's free, but
>later once my situation changes I'll have PS3 games to
>distract myself with and CF isn't going to be able to compete
>with that on it's current level.

Part of me blames you because you think you have to have 100%'s to compete, you don't. We have made a fair number of improvements to learning abilities over the years (most recently pulling up the learning rates for the lower end of intelligence).

>The fun ratio has to improve and making skills improve faster
>is the way that requires the least amount of effort from the
>Imms.

Enjoy your PS3.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

"Part of me blames you because you think you have to have 100%'s to compete, you don't. We have made a fair number of improvements to learning abilities over the years (most recently pulling up the learning rates for the lower end of intelligence)."

The only reason I made that table above was so I'd have some data to look at and I was mad at the world and didn't wan't to interact so it wasn't really a waste of time.

The only skills I typically perfect are my weapon (cause it improves damage output) and stealth skills (cause it sucks when they fail), and word of recall (cause it too sucks when it fails). That's about it.

Just believe me when I say the skill is essential to the class because it unlocks other skills (that are essential, note the plural). It's not a skill that I THINK I have to have at 100% because I DO have to have it at 100%. I had a learning ratio of 1 rank every 22 minutes which was extraordinarily high for me and I KNEW because of it, I was going to be sitting in the guild spamming for a bit. But they were good groups and good players and it was hard to turn down. Believe me when I say I spent 8 hours on it too, cause I was 12 hours old when I started working on it, and I was 22 hours old when I had it perfected. I'm SURE in those 10 hours I spent at least 8 hours probably closer to 10. I have no idea how the hours displayed in age tick by, so I'm going with the low estimate. It's a skill that I use ALL the time. I STILL use it all the time. I will ALWAYS use it all the time because it's THE skill of the class. That should be enough clues to tell you what it is.

Now I understand proposing any changes to you guys is like throwing yourself against a wall of nails repeatedly because you are pretty defensive about what you are doing, and that's understandable. I'm just stating my opinion that I think this is a broken aspect of the game and should be looked at. I didn't do anything that was unusual except solo to level 13 (which I can do in less than 2 hours regardless of class) and have two kick ass ranking groups who blasted through the first 30 levels in 12 hours. Either way, the problem arises when the skill doesn't perfect in 22 hours of constant use and it's essential to the class.

And I don't have a PS3... probably not going to get one either. Waste of money. I gotta save money for a new car unfortunately.

nt

You do need that skill to be 100 eventually, and it would be.

You don't need it to be 100 at level 30.

You don't even need it to be 100 to PK at level 30.

I'm guessing this is one of those skills where if you do nothing but rank, and do so efficiently, then its not going to be at 100% when you hit 30. And that that's almost surely by design.

If you instead spend some time PKing, or trying to, along the way, and maybe not all of your ranking is "optimal", then maybe its at-or-near 100 when you eventually make it to 30.

I've only had a bard to 30 once, but I don't recall having to spend a lot of time perfecting sing. I was running around all the time, though, so I may have gotten an unusually high number of improvements out of singing travelers march.

Spamming sing for something like... 4 or 5 RL hours straight.

Eventually it got so bad an imm was checking if I was botting via the guildmaster conversing with me. This wasn't an opportunity for imm XP. But I did suggest that they set the skill to 100 and let me be on my merry way so I didn't have to annoy the guildmaster with my constant yodeling (it was at 99).

Needless to say, they did not (or could not) do it.

Sing can get ridiculous at times, and no you don't need it perfected by level 30... you do however, need it perfected by level 33 or 34 if you don't want to be a punching bag to all the other mid-levels.

As a human, I believe. Anyhow, what I do is this.
I put on a movie. And I watch the movie. Honestly, it's so much easier when you think of it as doing other stuff, and not CF.

Spamming sing for something like... 4 or 5 RL hours straight.

Go out and do, well, anything. It's not like Sing is a highly specialized skill that you have to engineer a weird situation for. Grab some gear, or some cash, solo rank, experiment with what songs actually do instead of going off of forums, or go fight some people.

Otherwise, if you're going to insist on the most tedious way to do things, it's going to seem tedious.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Otherwise, if you're going to insist on the most tedious way
>to do things, it's going to seem tedious.

Unfortunately the most tedious way is also the best way, from an optimization perspective. You know people will want to optimize their characters, so why would you want the two most effective ways to do that be tedious while only the third(ish)-best way to do it is the fun option?

Depends how you define optimal.

If he'd been out and about improving the songs through use, he'd have been improving other things too.

nt

Affinity water 10.

With default affinity, I didn't find the water spells to be any more tedious than the rest of them.

The only thing that bugged me was the fact that the only places I could think of to effectively spam it where also places I always look for Invokers in my PK range, so I felt pretty unsafe doing it. I think I perfected drown in one session though, maybe two. Generally, I think I managed to stick with my "perfect at least one spell per session" goal fairly easily.

I'm not saying I sat and spammed it from 75 to 100 in 4 hours.

I'm saying the f*cking song was stuck at 99 for so long that an Imm suspected I was botting.

For all intents and purposes unless it's assassinate no skill in the *game* should take 4 hours of straight attempts to perfect at 99 except passive skills that are retardedly hard to learn such as concealed or riposte.

If I went out and actually did stuff, do you not understand that I'd be getting fewer Sing attempts in and therefore unable to do what it was I was trying to do at the time, which with my hazy memory was most likely trying to get Apocalyptic Overture or Vibrato practiced? I wouldn't have behaved like this at 30 but I might be a bit peeved that it takes 4 straight hours to get a single skill improve in Sing at 99 when at level 33.

Look, I'm not a perfectionist, but I'm not stupid either. Just because Daevryn says 'You can totally PK at this level with this limited skillset' does not mean that A) the majority of people can even fathom how to do so or B) that you can kill anyone *worth killing* at that level. I sure as #### know you're not killing any bash spamming orcs or fully spelled up conjurers or an anti-paladin looking for charges without Vibrato at 33 given that your next likely damage song has (at the time, I believe you tweaked it to be more reasonable since) a 3 round lag for at best around what, 70-100 HP in damage? A ***DEMO***? Your PK range already has you fighting people that are level 40 at 33.

>I'm not saying I sat and spammed it from 75 to 100 in 4
>hours.
>
>I'm saying the f*cking song was stuck at 99 for so long that
>an Imm suspected I was botting.

How long ago was this? As part of last years Santa Zulg, the skill improvement changes I did actually have an effect (some might even claim drastic) on this (2009/12/02). As things get closer to perfection they are harder to improve. With my changes it became less hard to improve in the 90-99% range.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

If I remember right this was 2008, middle or end.

If that's the case, then I shouldn't really experience anything similar to this anymore.

In that case, you're correct. Bards were my favorite class at one point but I play much fewer of them these days because of the difficulty (for me) in managing to juggle sealing a kill with getting lagged, especially where damage reduction is involved.

>no skill in the *game* should take 4 hours of straight attempts to perfect

No skill does, except maybe certain invoker spells. That is to say, these skills can be learned in a manner that doesn't involve four hours of straight attempts. You're choosing not to learn them that way.

>If I went out and actually did stuff, do you not understand
>that I'd be getting fewer Sing attempts in and therefore
>unable to do what it was I was trying to do at the time

Do you not understand that if you go out and do stuff then you're gaining some enjoyment and/or accomplishing other things, neither of which happens when you sit in the guild for four hours?

Honestly- four hours to improve from 99% to 100% seems a little nuts. If accurate, that makes me thing something else was at work. Either that or you got royally screwed by the RNG, in which case your experience isn't typical.

>Sing can get ridiculous at times, and no you don't need it
>perfected by level 30... you do however, need it perfected by
>level 33 or 34 if you don't want to be a punching bag to all
>the other mid-levels.

Having PK'd with bards without it in those levels, I call #### -- and frankly, the list of players who are better than me with the bard class is not a short one.

If you'd said level 40 I might have agreed, but I can't fathom managing to hit 40 with lower sing without purposely trying to do it.

>Having PK'd with bards without it in those levels, I call ####
>-- and frankly, the list of players who are better than me
>with the bard class is not a short one.

For what it's worth, the fact that you're really good with the bard class actually works against your point here.

Maybe people who aren't as good as you really do need those extra songs to be PK-viable at those levels.

I think you misread me -- I'm not very good with the bard class.

I miss Skiltore/Nuekar

Oh yeah. Duh. I totally read that as the exact opposite of what you wrote. Ooops.