.

Yes.

I'll skip making the case about why defender paladin is good, because I think we both agree that it is.

Stuff about champion that might intrigue you:

1) It's different. The game has seen a hundred tough or passable defender paladins, but I can't think of a memorable champion yet.

2) It's got more tactical choices.

3) It can do more to support teammates; whereas the defender is just sort of a tough, hard to kill guy with wrath and heal, the champion also has options like boosting the group's defense with marshal phalanx (or by tanking and fending, although, you could make the case that the defender has a similar option of tanking even though forefront adds an extra dimension to it) or boosting their offense with marshal rally.

4) It's got some interesting movement abilities in the form of marshal group and maneuver.

5) Hey, you get to play with staves and polearms. That's probably different from your last paladin.

6) Oooh charge set?

Where in the champion skill set is charge set?

Bryan

.

...the Inferno had a way for goodies to traverse, since that's really where the use comes for marshal group maneuvers. Not really sure if it's that necessary in the dragon fights (albeit I can see some, but nothing a shield paladin really couldn't do as well).

If you want a very group oriented class, ya need group oriented challenges (since group on group in CF is so rare).

Yay more elf paladins!

I know giants get a couple cool options but the good stuff belongs to the elves.

.

A couple small affects.

But you're doing the equivalent of saying that because the helpfiles point to some mace skills as strength-based and none as dexterity-based, all mace warriors will be fire giants and something like an arial mace is terrible.

Sometimes other factors in a race outweigh a marginally better chance to use some of the combo's skills, or at least, make the combo good in a different way.

Elves have everything going except size and str and they can buff size and str doesn't play as great a role.

They execute one skill faster, swiftstrike, better sups, better marshall faster skill improvement, resist spells better, sneak and so on.

.

Nep will make a paladin without virtues or sups from a redeemed orc to tool all of us just to show us it can be done.

I just think he's really quick to dismiss everything good about any other race of paladin who could be a champion as irrelevant.

Take storm giant for example, and for the moment let's ignore all its other advantages and look at the fact that it's bigger. Pro dismisses the size advantage, saying that the elf can prep for enlarge.

(We're assuming for the moment that having a larger size can be useful to a champion; it can, because they might choose to use a polearm, in which case distance benefits, and it's directly helpful for a champion skill or two.)

Sure, the elf can eat an enlarge pill, but so can the storm giant. If being giant sized is good, being enlarged-giant size is probably even better. This has additional dividends: an enlarged-giant size character is obnoxious for almost anyone to bash, can't be tripped by human-size characters, can't be blackjacked by human-size characters, can't be cranialed by human-sized characters, etc. etc. etc.

I don't know about you, but being much more obnoxious to lag seems like it could be immensely useful to a character that has good defense, but relies on being able to use its active skills to be so.

Does that outweigh having some of your skills work marginally better? I tend to think so, but maybe not. You also have to factor in how having a 16 con and an extremely common weapon vuln compares against having a 21 con, no vulnerabilities, weapon resistance, lightning resistance, and drowning immunity for a character who probably will want to tank a lot. That package of resistances is really powerful in how it limits many enemy's choices.

But somehow that all pales in comparison to sneak and swiftstrike. I don't see it. I could argue for the other races as well, but storm seemed like the easiest comparison because there we're not even weighing XP penalty differences.

You said you would Boots of the North in the build.

Leaving aside that I thought that was a low blow and unfair statement from you , you can't get them anymore. So resistance-gearing whore-to-kill storm Pally is no longer viable!

QED!

-Larcat

####, I don't even think I could have gotten those.

What did they do, resist cold or something?

You'd have -

Resistance
Lightning
Cold
Acid (black dragon hide)
Pierce/Slash/Blunt

Immunity
Water
Fire

You also forgot immunity to holy (righteousness).

I vaguely remember working out a setup where you'd be resistant to everything but I think light, which you don't get hit with a lot as a storm paladin.

You haven't thought this all the way through.

Add to immunity list holy when you want it. Given that the boots were on an archmage (you could locate them so hardly a big secret) I'm going to assume they either gave near immunity or made cold heal you so add cold to the immunity list also.

Add to resistance list magic or negative via shield and poison all the time via leg wear which let's you still have Passdoor.

He's a shield spec and giant sized with near perma fly.

The only direct damage you aren't resistant to is mental which is rare and easily prepped for. Throw on sanc and prot and you are immune to or have around 81% resist to all damage before you prep with stone skin etc. This Also doesn't take into the best case of having stone form.

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

> iven that the
>boots were on an archmage (you could locate them so hardly a
>big secret) I'm going to assume they either gave near immunity
>or made cold heal you so add cold to the immunity list also.

Nope. Just resist cold + decent stats + a resist in a slot that doesn't have too many options for resistance items. Not everything in the area was uber-powered, honest!

>The only direct damage you aren't resistant to is mental which
>is rare and easily prepped for.

There was also another ST-archmage item for worn resist mental.

>There was also another ST-archmage item for worn resist
>mental.

Also locateable, damn you! however, you didn't post saying a maran pally shield spec played by you would have the ring so I didn't include it in my fantasy theory crafting

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

I've played low level elf and storm champions.

The storm distances pretty good but not to the extent he is wow over the elf. His special charge rarely fired.

Other than that the elf ruled.

I (really!) hope you won't be offended if I don't consider you to be an expert on what makes for a tough paladin.

I just forget his name.

Because that was the baddest assed mort played Paladin ever, as far as I'm concerned.

Just in terms of raw badassery --

Leika, Lariya, Solasarath if he had ever decided he wanted to rack up PKs.

Ulothyre was the best RPed Pally.

Regardless, Pro wasn't any of those dudes.

I would have had to have cut link in order to make it a fair fight against them.

I was being tongue in cheek. My first hero was a Dwarf Paladin who's name I forget. I had three PK's in my favor I think.

gr

>I've played low level elf and storm champions.
>
>The storm distances pretty good but not to the extent he is
>wow over the elf. His special charge rarely fired.
>
>Other than that the elf ruled.

At low level the amount storm giant mana and skills suck is greatly magnified compared to how they stack up at hero. At low levels, just maintaining sanc is a problem. At hero? Nah.

For a two-hander or shield spec, strength doesn't matter for a paladin given the weapons they are likely to be using.

A champion isn't guaranteed no_disarm, and at least one of the weapons you would really really want to be using is quite heavy, like heavy enough that you drop it at 15 strength I believe.

As a two hander, that isn't an issue, but as a champion it definitely is.

There are a parcel of other reasons but that would be the biggest and most immediate for me if choosing the path.

The things you are listing as these huge benefits make me think that you haven't really considered why a champion might be very good. To be honest, I hadn't either but the more I think about it the better I think a champion might be, and the more I think that the default racial choice for one would be Storm.

>To be honest, I hadn't either but the more I
>think about it the better I think a champion might be, and the
>more I think that the default racial choice for one would be
>Storm.

I tend to agree, but then, I tend to think of storm as the default paladin race period. Ten years ago they were, and while elf paladins have been improved in that time and dwarf paladins have become possible (and are pretty great in different ways), I still think that anytime you discount storm as as paladin choice, you must be missing something important.

I mean, I gave up on my last storm paladin in part because at no time did I ever feel in danger of dying. I absolutely can't say that for my last elf paladin.

I've always had a ball in the midranks with my paladins. I tend to get my first virtue in the mid 20s, and it has been Fortitude a couple times and Temperance once.

Fights are awesome as a paladin then because you can nearly kill anyone, but anyone who can bash even mildly well might well kill you. Doubly so if you are an elf. Now that I think about it, in the same situations I would be horribly, horribly, horribly owning the same characters who made my life a living hell with my past pallies.

Thamuz the fire giant AP is a good example. I had a human pally at the time, and you gave me an Imm comment on PBF about giving Thamuz small piles of charges.

With a storm giant, I would have likely been tearing Thamuz a new one, at least making him flee like a little girl and possibly killing him.

And now that I think about it, whereas with elf, human and dwarf you are rolling the dice and desperately want/need Temperance, with a storm giant suddenly Fortitude is MUCH more interesting a Virtue whereas divine insight and essence of temp matter much less for a storm giant, so from the perspective of virtue-roulette, storm giant is a MUCH better bet.

None of this even goes into the massive, massive good thing that having inherent resist lightning and inherent undispellable water breathing are for a Paladin above all other classes..... (As an aside, this also makes Dwarf a slightly harder sell for Paladin race, depending on who has what sword and for how long).

: / This has got me thinking.......

asergasega

Because it doesn't seem like you did.

asdvasev