This seemed like a good a thread as any to mention that some familiar tweaking is still going on.

Included in that is that as of next crash/reboot or so you'll see familiar damage scaling a little more closely with the conjurer's level, which generally reduces their killing power a bit at lower levels.

Ebndhuy

...but you just suck.

I have a crappy ranger.

He gets attacked solo ranking by some adder + conjurer + demon + elemental.

He gets his ass raped.

He outruns familiar + conjurer to heal to full.

He sets a trap for familiar/conjurer.

He waits until he finds familiar in sort of maze, and dirt kicks the familiar then ambushes the conjurer 5 seconds later.

I eventually did die because I suck and made a few mistakes (one off the top of my head, should have ambushed the conjurer and not the adder that last time, d'oh!), got faerie fired and missed a herb.

Still, I was 8 levels below the conjurer. And didn't have detect invis up when he first got me.

Only thing I was somewhat incredulous about was the adder familiar seemed to heal very very well.

IE I had it writhing then 4-5 ticks later it was merely few scratches.

...just because standard tactics don't work against something, doesn't make it overpowered.

With the same results except I missed or had 5 dirts deflected in a row so quit trying to blind the snake assuming it had bedouin eyes.

It is overpowered.

...which makes me think his might have been questy.

I do kinda agree if what you're saying is correct, though my experience was when the dirt kick landed the battle swung again into my favor.

My poisoner thief died in a wtfbbq moment when a human conjurer with 6 or so levels met up with one.

My last fight with one we were about equal level, and the damn thing deflected about 3/4 of my special attacks and dodged like a fiend. He poisoned me, and after ten rounds when I took it from covered to gushing, he dismissed it. I would like to think that it was bad RNG, but then I'd also like to think that a familiar, though useful, should never be able to kill someone while their owner is safely in his guild.

I'd also like to see cabal guardian inners aggressively attack enemy familiars, for that matter.

High level mages are a nightmare for me to fight, too. Here are a few tips I've learned:

1. If you are into playing the CF arms race, prep more and wear better gear.
2. Conversely, try to catch them unprepared. For a conjurer, that means without pets.
3. Improve upon your tactics.
4. Improve your strategy.

Option one is the primary option for cabal wars, and although I love the cabal dynamic, I hate the "shinies are the solution" approach to the game. As you are a caballed ranger, gear and preps will be very important because your enemies won't normally fight you unless they can neutralize your ability to ambush them.

Option two requires that you be prepared for tells referring to you as "cheap" or "opportunistic."

Option three requires skill, timing, a good connection, and good knowledge of the class match-up. Usually people who have good tactics will also have access to better gear and preps, so wins that capitalize on superior tactics are rarely the product of outfit gear and detect invis.

Option four asks you to pre-plan your fight. Obtain and capitalize on healing options, escape options, and in-range ganking friends. Consider how you can use local terrain and mobs should you find yourself in a fight. Mobs and deathtraps are your friends if you use them properly.

2. Conversely, try to catch them unprepared. For a conjurer, that means without pets.

If they go angel or demon, catching them without damage reduction should be enough. You'd be surprised at how fast a conjie dies when you start bashing it.

n/t

Just thought Id add something I found strange. As I was out ranking, a conjurer attacks me, he flashes until I am blind, then follows. I dont notice right away, so I start running, and I keep getting attacked by his familiar. I cannot for the life of me figure out at the time how he can follow.

My question is this.
Should it work like that? That the conjurer can follow you, and still order his servants to attack you without follow being stopped?. To me it seems like a bad thing.

Also when a pet is out-meleing a warrior type class, it raises some concerns. When a pet does top skills/spells of any class it is concerning.

The example with the conjurers snake, is quite nice. Heck even the rattlesnake or cobra's venom is not chance on attack, its coil dependent, and does not have nearly the same effect. Not sure on their duration, but its hard to land, and only a chance to land it on coiling. And we are here talking about top tier shapeshifter forms vs a conjurers summoned pet. Ive not fought a pet like that, but Id be interested in seeing how it would pan out.

Cheers

You can prevent anyone and anything from following you.

As I said, was in a group, conjurer following = 2 people pet and conjurer same as a regular group, conjured pets arrive after conjurer and pet. So you can see the initial confusion. I hope.

But thats not the point. The point is that should it be like Ill blind and I can follow this person, and keep re-engaging and forcing them to leave a group. Without ever really engaging them, with the exception of getting that first flash in, or using a blind wand/rod.

And yes Nofol is your friend.

You've always been able to do this. When I conjured demons I always followed the target and let the demon spank him while I was just following along.

As long as I'm nitpicking:

>Benefits from his wands.

Nope.

...given a familiar emetic poison is just wrong. It's the hardest poison for a poisoner to get on his opponent, short of mind control setup or a very very lucky grenade.

Having that on demand is a bit nuts.

The poisoner version is much, much longer and does a lot more.

This is more like the dirt kick to the poisoner's blindness.

You shiver and suffer.
Your poison MUTILATES you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Pain grips your stomach as you retch your guts out!
A convulsion wracks your body as you project the contents of your stomach at the ground!
Your retching and nausea MUTILATES you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Your thirst hits you.
You sure are BLEEDING!
Your hunger hits you.
You sure are BLEEDING!

http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?3,813373,813373#msg-813373

That for six hours of emetic and 14 hours for poison in a single command is pretty rough - the conjurer wasn't even close to hero either.

I was about to tell you that a six tick duration was two freeway exits past impossible, but upon further review, I see the problem. FNCR.


Edited to add: Although it turns out that even with the buggy version, a six tick duration is still impossible.

I think I had at least if not more than 6 ticks of it but my client crashed and I lost the scroll so no log.

Sorry, miscounted in the log.


EDIT: Check the log - it went off once, and then this is my affects. So it would be "for 5 hours" when it landed...and if we're counting the 0 hour tick it could be 6 hours (granted I don't remember if emetic does a final tick or if you get the echo of it going away).

Skill: 'emetic poison' modifies strength by -2 for 4 hours.

Though someone watching it third hand might be led to believe that.

Its a lot more like famish then emetic.

nt

That seems so much more balanced =P

Most of the familiars take more and more of a beating as the conjurer gets higher level.

Do you think the "familiars are overpowered" outcry is a symptom of some balancing that was done to make familiars more useful at higher levels?

Splntrd

They are balanced. They have limits, and they make the class a bit more interesting.

If you are having problems with familiars than that is the least of your worries.

I would not have objected had:
a) damage it does been reduced
b) poison bite been an active skill, rather than an auto skill
c) familiar not healed fully provided you dismissed it before the tick, then recall it

I would further make it so that good aligned familiars are more fragile (since they can tank with archons) but have niftier skills, and evil ones are hardier but have less nifty skills.

But I did love Fester!

>c) familiar not healed fully provided you dismissed it before
>the tick, then recall it

I wasn't aware of this "trick" until very recently, but it's on my short list to address.

I gather it's always been possible, but either people weren't realizing it or didn't abuse it enough for it to get on the radar.

Any familiar that was maladicted (e.g. blind) will be fine when called back (i.e. able to see again) etc.

Actually, this seems to be working right to me, now that I investigate it more closely -- the familiar's HP are saved at the moment it's released.

It looks like the conjurer can probably shortcut their familiar healing to full by killing themselves, but I'm more or less okay with that.

I've put in some better logging around this and I'll keep an eye on it in the near future to make sure there isn't a case I missed.

If I released the familiar before the tick went through since it started taking injurers, any wounds would be gone when I recalled it. IF the tick hit when it was hurt, THEN it appeared to reappear in the same condition that it left in, broadly speaking, less and maladictions that were previously on it.

One potentially easy way to balance it would be to put a timer that starts on the release of a familiar, and prevents it being called back until the timer is gone.

gr

I didn't think I was. Hence I'm pointing it out months after deletion (not right after) at the point of the imms pointing out that they didn't know about it.

Yeah, I'm not going to say they're all perfectly balanced yet; I will say that people don't keep deleting until they get quasit anymore, and I consider that to be a step in the right direction.

The other thing I'll mention is that there are a handful of quest familiars out there, which people may or may not realize they're dealing with -- those aren't balanced with normal familiars and they're not meant to be. Each is a solid step up from the corresponding normal familiar (in the case of quest familiars that have a corresponding normal familiar, anyway) in a few ways.

I've had my lvl 35 DECKED melee type char get his ass kicked inside his guild by a conjurers (NONE-quest) familiar while he was sitting outside the guild waiting for me to flee out. (Which I did, I let the familiar kill me, as I had not other way to escape.)

I might add that I did have my defenses perfected, and ooh... Did I say that I was decked? (Didn't drop my weapons from the poison I got either.)

I just got outmeleed, badly, while not being able to flee as the conjurer sat outside with demon/elemental waiting...

And this is just one example. Sure, I think the new familiars are really cool, but they're not balanced. Yet.

Is there a reason why you would fight to the death vs. trying to run for it in that situation?

I can't really think of one unless you had 0 move for some reason.

You might also consider that some damage types would be more useful than others.

Pfft.

I agree they are probably too strong as it stands (although certainly far from unkillable), but to say you can't flee from a guild because a conjie is outside...

I have some tricks I like to keep at least partially secret.

I couldn't get past him or I would have been minced by them. Like I said, if a familiar is that stupidly powerful, I want nothing to do with the conjurer.

If you try to fight it toe to toe without somehow hampering the conjurer's ability to control it first.

I'm telling you, from someone who has both played and fought conjies, that you are going to lose in your situation, but you stand a good chance of getting past the conjie if you make a break early enough.

In fact, you can flee past the conjie before his servitors even get involved in the fight, because servitors don't immediately assist the conjie. You don't want to flee too often against some servitors, but you shouldn't need to.

>I have been out meleed by them with every highdex ranger I
>have had. They have too much utility IMHO to boot.

You do realize that about 80% of this is true for any random familiar you could have gotten before, right?

>Let's see, I just did battle with a Conjurer 7 ranks over me.

>His familiar Poisoned me for 10 hours.
Compare that to the imp? Curse, and out of range? Though it was hard as heck to do.

>It gives him sneak.
Alright, I'll give you that. If you're going to let familiars do that, I'd have thrown it to shadowcat too. But anyways, it's just sneak. Not like he can come at you unseen.

>He can see me with it.
Uh, coyote anyone? And honestly, you're going to complain about acute vision before detect hidden? I mean...if I'm a ranger, yeah. Otherwise, detect hidden probably has a TON more versatility.

>It has Thick hide that deflects my special attacks.
Yay shapeshifter era! Again it's something I wouldn't mind seeing be comparable to other familiars, but this isn't anything new overall.

>Seems resistant to weapons and especially fire.
OMFGLOLWTFPWNZOR TROGDOR! Think. Snake. Cold-Blooded. Shapeshifter forms. I'd bet a PBF that if it's resist fire, it just means there's some other damtype I can bitch-slap that familiar with, that I can't hurt other familiars with as bad. Honestly, aside from MAYBE getting resist weapon or resist magic, do you look at any character you have, do you think "AWESOME! I'm resist X!", or is it "Hrm, I better try to figure out how not to get hit by Y that I'm vuln to"?

>Dodges parrries and deflects normal attacks.
Uhh....yeah. Meet *EVERY* single mob in the game? (If they have a hide deflection skill)

>Benefits from his wands.
Neat, didn't know that, but also haven't run into it personally, so I can't really say. That I might find a little unnessecary.

>All this while him and his servitors are pumping out
>maledicts.
Uhm...yeah? Meet every other conjurer/druid/necromancer in the game?


Overall, I agree with the aformentioned telluric surge reference. It's a new and different set of problems for me to worry about. I personally don't have much trouble with TS, and I don't have any MORE problems with the new familiars, either. Just a different set to worry about.

People say that imps' curses are hard to land, so everyone believes it and nobody tries it.

If you actually try it, it's not that hard against most people. But no one actually seemed to until I stuck with an imp (supposedly a poor familiar, but good even pre-upgrade) and discovered the curse was good.

Pretty sure no one had upgraded the imps curse when I started Masigner.

You may want to watch your random capitalization. It's one of your tells.

(Assuming you don't want to give yourself away.)

But it is subconcious. I tend to cap specific point of intrest to me

In game I try to catch it

Now please nerf the adder familiars.

If a Decked (talking ~80 dam with avg 26-30 weapons) berserker ranger with perfected defenses and in home terrain has a rough time just fighting the familiar... maybe its too strong in melee.

By rough time Its not killing me in 3 rounds but I certainly can't do anything significant to them in like 20 and that poison is enough to take off a lot of life.

I bet I went 30 rounds against it and was taking Mutilates from its poison the whole time.

While others may see this as not over powered, I do considering it completly nullifies your strongest damage burst, and let's an already insanely powerful class tank indefinantly.

Even ff the snake was a bit more frail and only lasted a few rounds in combat it gives the savy conji time to fog out the ranger, poison him and get the servitors rolling bedore dismisal.

I have fought these adders with three rangers now and they have all been sent packing.

>While others may see this as not over powered, I do
>considering it completly nullifies your strongest damage
>burst, and let's an already insanely powerful class tank
>indefinantly.

My thoughts are:

1) At the lower levels (sub-30-35-ish), ambush should be just about a one hit kill on most conjurers. Certainly I've seen no small number of one shot kills on lowbie mages with ambush.

2) Post-WF, if anything is outtanking you in the wilderness, you're doing something wrong.

3) Post-snare, this just gets ugly.

>Even ff the snake was a bit more frail and only lasted a few
>rounds in combat it gives the savy conji time to fog out the
>ranger, poison him and get the servitors rolling bedore
>dismisal.

Since you've thought this through, where is the fog coming from?

But all classes can bring rangers out of hiding with a dirt cheap remedy unless they are Battleragers.

Maxed defenses, 95% wild familiarty in home terrain, spammed out all my damage causing spells and went to kicking kneeing and elbowing and BARELY survived the fight only to die of poison (Well an aggressive MOB hit me as I was running as close as I could to my recall point before I died).... All this from the familiar.

Like I've said, I've fought these all the way up the ranks, and the conjurer rarely even makes an appearance, he just chases with the familiar.

I've heard other's complaining IC'ly as well.

Conjie is normally on the same continent as the familiar. If he isn't, he can't release the familiar.

If you don't want to fight the conjie, just walk away from the familiar.

Casts familiar again and hits me with it when I come at him and his demons out of the wilderness.

Come on man!

Also I think you can release from anywhere.

Unlike you, I've played a conjie for many hours. In fact, several conjies.

The latest was Masigner. With the uber imp.

You cannot release from another continent. And that's just the start of your problems. I've had my familiar die when raiding outlander, for example, only to find a massive group waiting, and them killing the uber-imp before I could get back to the continent to release it (even with tesseract, and I do tesseract pretty close to the Arkham continent).

So whilst on this topic... it was rangers!

We aren't talking about Imp's, we are talking about the snakes.

DR, bash protection, no legs to trip etc etc.

You could walk to the refuge from the Island to pet your snake before it was killed.

You might be surprised how almost completely identical the stats on those two familiars are.

Along with most of the other familiars.

Me with one, then I'll bitch about it.

I kid.

Seriously there's no comparing the two. I had the Imp with a low level conjie and it didn't do half the things the snake does.

>Seriously there's no comparing the two. I had the Imp with a
>low level conjie and it didn't do half the things the snake
>does.

Same DR.
Same damage.
Both poison bite.
Snake has no legs, imp flies.
Snake has a scaly hide, imp has better/more resistances/immunities and no vulns.

etc.

Combat-wise, there is not a lot of difference.

Imp can be bashed, snake can't, or at least not reliably.

There's just no real comparison between the two.

Would you like the long list of things the imp can do that the snake can't?

(Note: this is a rhetorical question)

Edited to add: Also, you certainly can bash a snake.

battle berserker ranger.
80 dam roll
avg 26 and 30 weapons
perfected defenses
perfected weapons
above 90% deathblow.
Hometerrain

equates to about 30 rounds of combat to get the familiar gushing cause it defends like a crack fiend. The melee damage it does is not substantial but its enough to be a nuissance, the poison is like level 60 I want to say.

A character without options to heal it sub 25 can be more or less killed outright by the poison.

so at the end of the day after level 25 or so you shouldn't die to the familiar but it is also pretty much completly immune to being killed short of the player of the conjie being so inept as to let you sit there and kill it off over the course of numerous ticks. I honestly don't know if the snare timer is enough to kill it off as a berserker ranger and if you can think of any other built that can push out as much damage as a ranger I would be surprised. Maybe an outlander beastmaster that uses both wolfkinship and beast call but now we are talking about using 2 semi high level skills to counter the result of a level 17 spell.

while its super tanking is very annoying if you dropped the effectiveness of the poison I think that would be enough to balance it out. Either half the damage on it or the duration. I also recall it being like a -7str from a level 30 conjie which while I can't recall exact numbers seems a little on the high end for that level of poison. though I admit I could be totally wrong on that point.

There are plenty of ways to kill a conjie's familiar. Sure, they are very tough, but a lot of classes have ways of killing them that the conjie can't really prevent.

There's really no way to kill it for a ranger.

I burned through 500 mana as an animist hitting it with offensive spells then resorted to kicking and scratching befor it was released at writhing and the poison finished me. This has happened to three rangers of mine.

You have to accept that your build is good for some things, and that trying to melee a mob of this kind down isn't one of them.

Your matchup is somewhat disadvantaged in this kind of fight straight up, and I'm not hearing you talk about using any of the tactics that would help even the score.

(You may also have to accept that if you can't out-tank a lower level mob, even one that can take a terrific beating, you may be doing something wrong or have bigger problems.)

(You may also have to accept that if you can't out-tank a lower level mob, even one that can take a terrific beating, you may be doing something wrong or have bigger problems)

What contributes to a ranger with Maxed defenses not being able to out tank a lower level mob? (Even though it's caster was 6 ranks senior to me?)

>What contributes to a ranger with Maxed defenses not being
>able to out tank a lower level mob? (Even though it's caster
>was 6 ranks senior to me?)

Got me. Maybe you're carrying 500 pounds. Maybe you're chugging slow potions. Maybe you're not wielding a weapon. I haven't attempted to ascertain the specifics of your character.

I'm just saying, if you're struggling to tank a mob that cons as easy kill or little finger to you, that's a problem that has nothing to do with a familiar.

How is it MY doing when defending against a mob lower levels than you is something basicly the game RNG does?

Go figure, when I first fought them I tanked ####y under half weight, I grabbed a skiff putting me over weight and and tanked fine.

So it's a mystery to me.

Read my post carefully and you'll see that I said something along the lines of "most classes".

Rangers are actually REALLY well set up for killing it. Just not your kind of ranger.

A ranger with snare, backrake and serpent strike (particularly the double form) is very well set up to kill a familiar.

A cavedweller with rebounding strike is unbelievably well set up.

An animist... not so much.

Conjies don't just fight animists.

It's skin deflects A LOT of your attacks including serpentstrike,
Your caverndweller example means #### when protecting the refuge.

Snare doesn't last long enough for an 80 dam berserker to take care of it.

Backrake something with heavy DR? Why so it bleeds for scratches? That's assuming its skin doesn't deflect the backrake thus wasting tons of rounds you could be trying futily to pump out damage.

The adders give way to much to a class that already owns rangers.

It would benice if the familiar was killable, and didn't have where and didn't give the conjie sneak.

So here's just one point.

Familiars don't have the hugest amount of hp. At least, most don't. They rely on extreme dam redux.

As a consequence (the redux being inbuilt, and not wand-related), they do regenerate back to full pretty fast. So you need to nerf their regen if you can't kill them fast (which you can't).

Causing bleeding does that. So backraking is worth it.

Also, the conjie class in general does not own rangers. It's the other way around. A conjie with adder should not die to them, but he shouldn't be able to get them to stick around in the first place. A conjie without adder should be dying to rangers (possible exception Ifrit).

Isildur destroyed Masigner with Sulye, because he played to a ranger's strengths. (OK, he was a little lucky because he only found me whilst looking for a previous foe who fled, but it was only a matter of time.) He used track to figure out my patterns over a very extended period. He then picked the ideal ambush spot, from which I had no easy escape. He then snared me, prepped with some nifty cstuff, waylaid me, bearcharged me. I took an unspeak ambush, and two or three DEVASTATES, dying without coming out of lag from the bearcharging he started which I was in waylay lag. That's how a ranger beats a conjie.

You'll probably tell me I should have killed him with my familiar. Spring your trap right, and that won't be an option for the conjie.

It's not how to kill a conjie Without a new adder 10m It's "Is there anyone else out there that think the adder is over powered".

The answer to my question was yes. I'm not going to continue this arguement with you as the question has been answered to my satisfaction.

Poison -- I can think of some counterexamples in, say, the Elven Vaults, but not anything player-sourced -- is pretty much always -5 STR regardless of level.

did not know that. cool.

>Maybe an outlander
>beastmaster that uses both wolfkinship and beast call but now
>we are talking about using 2 semi high level skills to counter
>the result of a level 17 spell.

Okay, but bash gets a lot more kills than familiars and it's level 15. The level of a skill/spell doesn't really indicate how powerful it is. In fact, at least half of the best ones (at a guess) come in by 30.

>I bet I went 30 rounds against it and was taking Mutilates
>from its poison the whole time.

Can it see camo from further than a room away (ie can it use where to pick you up when camoed?) Is it faster than you in the wilds? I don't understand why you would fight it for 30 rounds, other than because you think it should be an easy way to take 1/3 of a con from a conjurer. Just leave, it can't lag you.

It can use where and...

I was trapped in an area the conji himself couldn't reach but he was blocking my only way out and if its familiar does this I don't want to know about his servitors.

Sure, the servitors are tough, but they are less predictable for the conjie. He can't tell them precisely what to do, the way he can for a familiar.

Also, even if they are tougher (which in some ways they are, and in others they are not), you can still flee past them, at which point you don't have to fight the familiar OR the servitors.

You basically just stood there and waited to die (regardly of whether you used spells), and are now complaining because the tactic of standing there and waiting to die ends up getting you killed.

You cannot just face off with a familir indefinitely with your build. You would, in most cases, make it past the conjie and his servitors, provided that you don't fight the familiar until you are almost dead first. Then get the hell out of the area. He should be slower than you because at the very least he'll need to type "where" periodically and you won't.

I fought him on two contenents. I got tooled on the first, got the sickness and ran. He caught me on the next where I was hiding and I was stuck and fought it out.

As bad as you are defending this, I'm inclined to think you are this guy or the other midlevel guy.

I have had more, WAY more than three encounters with these snakes and finally tried to see if one could be killed. It could but it was a Pyric victory.

All your ideas are swell in a vacuum, but they have been tried. I didn't post this after one encounter, I posted it after many, with different builds and a couple months observation. (However long they have been around)

Fess up, you're one of these characters and are enjoying the advantage. Now that I think about it, given the RP style of the one, I'm confident it is. I'd like to pony up for your PBF if its's you.

My most recent conjie was Masigner. I had to stop playing him because my internet connection deteriorated to the extent that I'd log on naked without having any idea how I died.

I do know most of the situations that make your familiar vulnerable to being killed. From how you've described your class (and Daevryn), you can't create most of those situations. So you are a bad matchup.

I do know, however, that a ranger can run past a conjie easily enough without getting killed. The main servitors behave differently to a familiar. They don't take orders. The conjie has to engage you before they will, and that gives you a chance to break past. As a ranger in the wilds, you should have little difficulty doing that.

There are a lot of ways to prevent a conjurer giving commands to his familiar. You happen (it appears) to have none of these. Lots of other classes do have ways. They probably just haven't realised that they are able to do it yet.

If you want to assume that I'm saying this because I enjoy kicking your ass, go ahead. I'm saying this as a non-conjie who has played a conjie, seen both sides of the equation, and knows what the conjie's vulnerability is.

How about you play a conjie to hero, spend 100 hours there, and then report back that your familiar can't be killed. Mine died maybe half a dozen times, and I was pretty careful.

Tell you what though, your way of fighting him would have guaranteed you lost to me every time. My suggestion would have meant you'd probably survive every time.

If you are a push-over for me to kill (which it sounds like you are for this character, because of the way you fight him), I don't pk you more than once.

If you read back through all my battlefield threads (barring Masigner who autoed), I think you'll find that my enemies all complimented me and said that I was fun to fight.

You sure don't sound like you were having a lot of fun. So I'm surprised you think this character that's bothering you is me, just because I am strongly disagreeing with you about what conjies can and cannot do. Which in turn is because I've a fair bit of experience playing them.

He was cool and clearly in character and a role.

But its frustrating to deal with something.so clearly over the top.

Generally speaking, when something new comes out it's gotta be crazy....and then they tone it down. The familiar I had on my nexun was pretty insane and it wasn't even a quest familiar. Bonus to conjuring elementals, permanent reduce/enlarge, crazy tanking with an air shield, and it could recall me (even posted a log of it wording me away from a lich after I got slept).

So yeah, hopefully they figure it out and tone them down.

My question would be is why does there inspiration come on classes that don't need it - just like the telurric surge conversation, conjurers definitely did not need much help in this arena and now it's just over the top. There's a ton of other classes out there that just don't get the loving they need, and yet constantly classes are updated or given new things when they're already fine.

All except champion paladins of course

~

Especially considering a Nexun.....I just focused on making the strongest air elemental possible, which I found out got parried/dodged/etc pretty insane. If it hit though, it did OBLITS+.

That familiar was still nuts though....couldn't even imagine what it'd get as a quest form.

The abilities of the familiars are from purely observed means, in combat etc.

You mentioned a lot about the Janni's capabilities, like better elementals etc

I had the Quasit with Nerys and was awarded the eyeless quasit by Fjarn in the role contest. Now I observed it taking slightly less damage and doing slightly more damage but I wasn't sure if I was imagining better regen for me and the quasit or not. Overt abilities are easy to distinguish but slightly less obvious stuf isn't.

How did you work out all yours could do?

Daevryn, is it possible that a 'quest familiar' can somehow instruct the conjurer of any additional abilities it might bring that are not obvious? Only for questy ones, the rest can be fathomed.

-----Abernyte

Off the top of my head, I think the improved familiars are generally identical to their standard versions, with one or more of the following upgrades:

1) Better fighting stats / takes less damage

2) Has an extra detect (not on the skill list, but I think you could piece this together)

3) Has an extra ability that shows up on the familiar skill list.

The extra abilities being the pimpest part, imo. Considering Tinsalaop's basically gives him immune_solo_ranger.

The normal ifrit can do that, too.

Holy crap. And here I thought it was just his quest familiar.

There were two things, each of which nerfed a different crucial ranger skill. Looking back, I can see how one is probably default ifrit stuff. But the other I'm pretty sure is questy since it involved blackfire.

~

But what I do remember was increased carrying capacity.

I believe it has 2 of 3 of the things on my list above, unless you're counting the extra carrying capacity in which case it has 3.

I'd be more specific but I don't want to give away all the surprises on the next person to have superimp.

Yeah, it did. Just thought you were saying something different there.

1) Do imps have any hidden abilities?

2) Does the 'favor of imps' boost your imp familiar? (longshot, yes)

3) Does the "scale deflection" thingy scale with level the same way dodge does? (vipers seem to tank high level mobs fairly well.. not sure how dodge works in that respect)

4) Does familiar make your sleeks pop?

The comparison seems a bit lopsided in favor of viper to me. I know of a couple of really good things (some not listed so far in this thread) that viper does.

The only imp-only abilities in that respect is having hands (open/get), and impcurse. Impcurse would be neat if it had ever worked on characters the same level as me)

>1) Do imps have any hidden abilities?

Generally, I don't think so, although it has a few things show up on its command list that you haven't mentioned yet.

>2) Does the 'favor of imps' boost your imp familiar?
> longshot, yes)

Nope.

>3) Does the "scale deflection" thingy scale with level the
>same way dodge does? (vipers seem to tank high level mobs
>fairly well.. not sure how dodge works in that respect)

I think it's just a flat small chance.

>4) Does familiar make your sleeks pop?

No.

>The comparison seems a bit lopsided in favor of viper to me. I
>know of a couple of really good things (some not listed so far
>in this thread) that viper does.

I can't think of any that haven't been mentioned, so probably it actually doesn't.

>The only imp-only abilities in that respect is having hands
> open/get), and impcurse. Impcurse would be neat if it had
>ever worked on characters the same level as me)

Impcurse is as likely to work as curse cast by a shaman or a-p of the conjurer's same level, which I don't think is a joke. (Necromancers have spellcraft.)

>>The comparison seems a bit lopsided in favor of viper to me. I
>>know of a couple of really good things (some not listed so far
>>in this thread) that viper does.

>I can't think of any that haven't been mentioned, so probably it >actually doesn't.

Viper gives mana advantages when it's in the same room as you for one. It can also camofluage itself (although that is very minor).


>>The only imp-only abilities in that respect is having hands
>> open/get), and impcurse. Impcurse would be neat if it had
>>ever worked on characters the same level as me)

>Impcurse is as likely to work as curse cast by a shaman or a-p of the >conjurer's same level, which I don't think is a joke. (Necromancers >have spellcraft.)

It was like 6-8 years since I tried out a conjie.. so something might have changed.. including my memory of how the success rate was.

anyway, thanks.

And as I've posted before, Impcurse is fine, despite claims to the contrary. Even against those of your own level. It's not even pointless against those above your pk range.

The janni's tough, yeah -- but

A) You're a neutral conjurer, of which there hasn't been a tough one basically ever and

B) You've got a familiar with no special detects or flight, which, historically, result in conjurer deletion 90%+ of the time.

I'm not saying the janni is weak, but when you compare its value with having a familiar that can fly and scout, or see hidden, or help you regen faster, etc., I think it's pretty fair.