>Hey, just some thoughts regarding heroimming. My assumptions
>first (I couldn't find any official documents outlining
>heroimm duties, so I'm going by word of mouth.... correct me
>if i'm significantly wrong)
>- Heroimms basically get to do 2 things:
>* Handle new players (mirror room/n00b channel)
>* Write (but not code) an area
>
>Then, after some time, you get to do more stuff.. Have a
>religion, run quests, etc. Then, even later, you might be
>trusted with access to code stuff.

Sounds about right.

>This approach makes sense to avoid rotten apples in the staff
>since that could cause alot of damage. But the problem is, it
>completely and absolutely kills the prospect of ever imming
>for me (and I think many others).
>
>I know pretty well in which areas I have skills, and it's also
>those areas that I think is fun, and that I know I'm fairly
>good at. Basically, designing stuff and coding. I could write
>areas, sure, but I'm not that good at it.

Neither was I...

>In the current
>system I would probably have to put in a few thousand hours
>before I could ever get to do that stuff.

I don't think it's that long.

>This is essentially
>a waste for everyone since I would be doing stuff that I 1)
>suck at and 2) don't like doing.

So don't.

>Also, many players have been playing here 10+ years, and (I
>would guess) their personalities are quite well known by the
>imms.

You'd be surprised at how few personalities I actually know.

>It would seem to me that the information available there
>is much more valuable to assess somebody's qualities than a
>trial-period as heroimm.

I disagree completely. How you play the game isn't the same as how you interact with/help/mentor folks. It says nothing about how you're going to actually do the responsibilities you've been given. There are very good reasons for having a trial period, and as you mention later...the turnover in heroimms proves that.

>Hence, my suggestion is to increase the entry level of new
>imms (and possibly accelerate the process after that as well).

I'm not sure what you mean by this...but if you mean have them come in at 53...No.

>For example, if I could write code for an area I am working
>on, then working on an area would be quite fun instead of
>being a prospect I instantly reject.

If writing an area is a prospect you instantly reject, I don't really see a future for you as an Imm.

>Other options could be
>allowing new staff members snoop people, tring mobs and run
>quests, hand out limited rewards for roles etc, approve
>lastnames, give titles, run a religion, choose whether to be
>visible or not, etc.

Once you prove you're capable of those responsibilities...that exists.

>Just thought about it since 1) There were some discussions
>about lack of imms to run cabals and more importantly 2) The
>churn rate of heroimms is, from what I've seen, ridiculously
>high. And that's not even counting everyone that is
>discouraged from ever trying it out.
>
>Anyway, whaddoyathink?

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

One other point you brought up was about coding...There is nothing stopping a heroimm from coding beyond having a mentor (which really boils down to myself, Seb & Nep) and submitting your code through them.

The problem tends to be time, and having to teach the ins and outs of the functions (which to use where, what are you trying to do, etc). I think I got to write half, if not more, of the progs for the Talshidar Caves as a 51.

If you've got coding background, chances are you'll be given more of a shot to do this, than if you have none at all and want to learn.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Side question:

Would you consider accommodating someone who wanted to write a complete initial draft of their area, i.e. formatted according to the current area docs, prior to heroimming?

That was my big problem, basically. My area idea was way too ambitious and I really don't enjoy writing areas to begin with. Because of this I didn't make much progress, which, understandably, pissed Valg off. If I were ever to give it another try (assuming that's even a possibility, which may not be the case), then I'd want to have my area "in the can", so to speak, before even applying.

Though we usually put the 100 room cap on it for a reason - it's a TON of work and often it can get tedious. It's better if you start with a small project, cut your teeth, get past that heroimm state, and then once you've gotten over the newbie stage, then you can submit for a much larger project. Often, you can take as much time as you want at it then because you'll also be progressing as you run religions/cabals/etc. Hell, I've been working on Arial City since I was level 53...

So can you publish some basic requirements for area document? What should it look like and so on.

So anyone could try without applying for heroimm and wasting his and yours time.

Honestly, I've been around the Heroimm process enough that I'm pretty sure most of the details to the areas aren't likely to see the light of day. CF has a lot of uniqueness that I think everyone would be happy to not see copied elsewhere.

I think in general, if you wanted to sorta "headstart" an area, I would just come up with a layout, plan for mobs and items, and descriptions for everything. Keep in mind, even if you write something up, it might get shot down after you Heroimm. But if they like the theory behind it, the plan of what goes where, and the descriptions (room , exits, mob descs, items short and long descs, etc) is a lot of the work. The rest is just the actual "putting" of things in their places.

Of course, I could also be entirely wrong in what I said, but that was the roughest part for me

Whats so secret in details like "It should be in .doc format, contain all rooms description + layout of the area + mobs description and placement"?

Your area file has to conform to a specific format in order to be loaded by the game. The document describing this format is given out only to those who've entered into an NDA with Carrion Fields, LLC.

Areas are always written in txt format, very similar to how you would write a description in game. Lines cannot be longer than 80 characters and must have a hard return at the end of each line. Mobs, rooms, and objects are all separated into different sections of the same txt file. Our heroimms these days don't even see area docs until they have their first 30 room descs done so these are the basic instructions you need. Usually when I'm getting a heroimm set up I send the my real basic room template and a few instructions to set up an area file so they have some solid structure to work on. A map is (in my humble opinion) very important just for the area writing, it wouldn't have any impact on the game.

1. Will almost ready area (written in .txt format completely or almost completely) be a "+" when you consider HeroIMM application?

2. Will/can you use it if decline the application?

3. Is it any particularly requirements for what area should be? I.e. we want you to rewrite this area or write so and so area or the heroimms are completely free in their decisions of what to write?

I would get signoff on a basic proposal before actually doing the work.

Like if your project is, "Hey, I rewrote Galadon and made it level 51+," that may not go over so well.

I didn't mean to imply that I wanted to pre-complete the area just so I could do a bigger project. Not by a long shot. I just meant that by completing it beforehand I'd avoid the possibility of a repeat of last time. Which is to say, imming then failing to complete my project in a timely fashion.

In my case it was extra tedious because I was doing a time-shifted copy of another area (Ruins of the Deep). So each room description had to "match" the corresponding room in the original area, except be "new" instead of "ruined". If there was a broken plate on the floor in the Ruins, then I wanted to have a "whole" plate in the description of that room in my area. If a room had "the ghost of a fat man", then I wanted to have a living "fat man" in the corresponding room in my area. Etc.

And I didn't have the original area file, just a log of a walkthrough of the existing Ruins of the Deep.

So yeah. It was a huge pain in the ass.

Well the thing is that you're not *just* writing an area as a 51. You're doing descs with newbs, manning newbie channel, and most important, letting the imms get to know you. You learn every day what it is to be an imm. It's a trial period, so to speak. So even if you came with an area ready you'd still be a heroimm and probably even MORE bored for a few months.

I actually enjoyed desc room duty. It broke up the tedium of sitting in the gathering room and doing...nothing at all. But yeah- several months of no mortals would be rough. At least this way if I already had my area finished then I could theoretically play morts without feeling guilty about it, as long as I also spent some time online as the heroimm.

If this ever actually happened, I would envision most of my heroimm time coming during the day when I'm at work, since heroimms can go AFK at the drop of a hat and not wake up naked at their pit.

>If this ever actually happened, I would envision most of my
>heroimm time coming during the day when I'm at work, since
>heroimms can go AFK at the drop of a hat and not wake up naked
>at their pit.

Yes, nowadays we put AFK naked heroimms in much more embarassing places.

>Would you consider accommodating someone who wanted to write a
>complete initial draft of their area, i.e. formatted according
>to the current area docs, prior to heroimming?

My first few thoughts are:

1) It's really, really rare (if it's even ever happened) that the first draft of someone's area proposal gets a thumbs-up -- so there you have the danger of, I just wrote 100 rooms that are completely unusable because it took me three tries to come up with a concept that I liked and Team Area also liked.

2) At that point you think, maybe I should get it approved first. There my concern is that Team Area Approver may not want to go through the feedback/approval process with extra people.

3) What happens if you (being the general you and not you specifically) write an area, and then get told 'thanks, but no thanks' on imming?

Good points.

Guess I was envisioning a scenario where the would-be-imm had already gotten a tentative thumb's up on the possibility of joining the staff, and had gotten a tentative thumb's up on a very general idea for an area.

The kind of approval you'd get as a current heroimm before beginning to actually write room descriptions.

Once the person actually imm'd he'd just skip ahead to the point where someone would normally start reviewing his first draft.

All that would get cut out is the period where he's a heroimm, but still hasn't finished a first draft of his area. This seems like where most people fail. At least, it's where I failed. Having the draft ready beforehand would remove the possibility of washing out as a heroimm because one can't get motivated enough to finish his area.

>
>Once the person actually imm'd he'd just skip ahead to the
>point where someone would normally start reviewing his first
>draft.
>
>All that would get cut out is the period where he's a heroimm,
>but still hasn't finished a first draft of his area. This
>seems like where most people fail. At least, it's where I
>failed. Having the draft ready beforehand would remove the
>possibility of washing out as a heroimm because one can't get
>motivated enough to finish his area.

Personally, I don't think the area is the main goal of the heroimm process. I think it's a time to prove that you can set goals and stick to them; that you can do the work and not burn out; that you can sacrifice the "play" aspect of the game in favor of the "duty" aspect. You also show that you can plan a project, execute it, ask the right questions, follow instructions, problem solve, accept criticism, defend your decisions, implement suggestions, and eventually see the project through to completion. Area writing is a great way to exhibit all of those characteristics and do so in a way that contributes something tangible to the MUD.

I don't know your specific circumstance, but if you're not motivated to finish the area (your single overriding priority as a heroimm), doesn't that send a signal to the staff that maybe it's not a good match? What if you take criticism too personally? What if you can't work other peoples' ideas into your own to meet a unified goal? These characteristics show up over time, through interactions with multiple members of the staff.

I suppose there is still an outstanding question of: Yes, but why should a player have to heroimm prior to starting any of this? The answer is simple, really: Now you have something to lose, and by extension, you have a reason to take the job more seriously (and not waste the staff's time).

That's my opinion, anyway.


EDIT: I did actually have another point before I wandered lost.. You said:

"Guess I was envisioning a scenario where the would-be-imm had already gotten a tentative thumb's up on the possibility of joining the staff, and had gotten a tentative thumb's up on a very general idea for an area.

The kind of approval you'd get as a current heroimm before beginning to actually write room descriptions."

As I read it, what you've described is basically heroimming without the responsibility. I think that's an important part of the process that shouldn't be ignored or negated... for whatever that's worth.

All I'm really suggesting is a little feedback prior to someone actually joining the staff. It might go like this:


App: Hey, I'm thinking about applying to the staff. Based on what you know of me and my past characters, do you think I'd be given a shot?

Staff: Sure, assuming you can produce another quality long-lived character that's worthy of immorting.

App: Okay, cool. If I did join the staff, I think I'd want to do something like {X} for my area. Does that sound reasonable?

Staff: Well, this isn't official, but based on what you've described that sounds like a decent idea for an area.

App: Great. I'll get started working on it while I play my next character, then officially apply once that character's ready.

Functionally, what's the difference between this and, say:

App: I'd like to apply to heroimm
Staff: OK
(interview, etc)
Staff: Welcome aboard new heroimm
App: Thanks. I'd like to do something like X for my area, does that sound reasonable?
Staff: Sounds good (review process). Get started!
App: Great, I'll get started working on it.

The only difference is that you would get to play the game instead of putting in hours as a heroimm while you work on the area. In my opinion, that bypasses some of the other key elements of the process. I'm not part of the selection process, so I don't care - I'm just noting my observation.

The other thing that would affect you is that while we're not exactly churning out new areas at a record pace or anything, how would the staff maintain any kind of control over who is designing/revamping/replacing which areas? Especially if you start getting lots of pre-heroimms (?) that want to do this. How do you manage the 6 people who have ideas to revamp the Forest of Nowhere?

By the way, I'm not shooting down your idea - just sharing my first reaction to it, for good or ill. I like the discussion.

Double extra secret by the way: You can come up with mobs and items and, to some extent, room descriptions for the core of the area, and then when you heroimm, incorporate them into the area you actually design. I'd wager that you could finish 70% of an area in this way, and then the other 30% is tying it in. It's not a full draft, but is it that far off from what you're suggesting? In this case, and in the case you suggested, you're probably putting in a lot of hours and heart and soul into it, and it's probably going to get changed (potentially to a large degree) when you imm anyway.

The main difference is that, should the would-be applicant flake out and never actually design his area, he hasn't wasted as much staff time. You can't "wash out" if you're never "in" in the first place.

Maybe there doesn't need to be any official apparatus in place to support this, and individual would-be staff members can just decide on their own whether to start work on an area beforehand or not. Speaking personally, I don't think I'd ever consider applying again unless I had something already partly designed. If for no other reason than to atone for the lack of effort the first time around.

>Maybe there doesn't need to be any official apparatus in place
>to support this, and individual would-be staff members can
>just decide on their own whether to start work on an area
>beforehand or not.

That's the direction I would lean. No one is stopping anyone from coming up with area ideas and putting them on paper. But if you don't get accepted to heroimm, or if you are but the ideas aren't accepted (Ruins of Galadon!), you might have wasted your time. If you're smart about it, though, you can still come up with a unique core idea, get a bunch of descriptions done, and then probably figure out how to fold it in to your heroimm area project with a few hours of edits.

You can skip the first part until the asterixes, it's just there for reference.

>Hey, just some thoughts regarding heroimming. My assumptions
>first (I couldn't find any official documents outlining
>heroimm duties, so I'm going by word of mouth.... correct me
>if i'm significantly wrong)
>- Heroimms basically get to do 2 things:
>* Handle new players (mirror room/n00b channel)
>* Write (but not code) an area
>
>Then, after some time, you get to do more stuff.. Have a
>religion, run quests, etc. Then, even later, you might be
>trusted with access to code stuff.

Sounds about right.

>This approach makes sense to avoid rotten apples in the staff
>since that could cause alot of damage. But the problem is, it
>completely and absolutely kills the prospect of ever imming
>for me (and I think many others).
>
>I know pretty well in which areas I have skills, and it's also
>those areas that I think is fun, and that I know I'm fairly
>good at. Basically, designing stuff and coding. I could write
>areas, sure, but I'm not that good at it.

Neither was I...

>In the current
>system I would probably have to put in a few thousand hours
>before I could ever get to do that stuff.

I don't think it's that long.

>This is essentially
>a waste for everyone since I would be doing stuff that I 1)
>suck at and 2) don't like doing.

So don't.

>Also, many players have been playing here 10+ years, and (I
>would guess) their personalities are quite well known by the
>imms.

You'd be surprised at how few personalities I actually know.
>>It would seem to me that the information available there
>>is much more valuable to assess somebody's qualities than a
>>trial-period as heroimm.

>I disagree completely. How you play the game isn't the same as how you interact with/help/mentor folks. It says nothing about how you're going to actually do the responsibilities you've been given. >There are very good reasons for having a trial period, and as you mention later...the turnover in heroimms proves that.



>>Hence, my suggestion is to increase the entry level of new
>>imms (and possibly accelerate the process after that as well).

>I'm not sure what you mean by this...but if you mean have them come in at 53...No.

>>Other options could be
>>allowing new staff members snoop people, tring mobs and run
>>quests, hand out limited rewards for roles etc, approve
>>lastnames, give titles, run a religion, choose whether to be
>>visible or not, etc.

Once you prove you're capable of those responsibilities...that exists.

>For example, if I could write code for an area I am working
>on, then working on an area would be quite fun instead of
>being a prospect I instantly reject.

If writing an area is a prospect you instantly reject, I don't really see a future for you as an Imm.

*******************************************************************************************************************po***********

Basically, I think that my point is that there are quite a few accesses that could be given that don't really have much more abuse posibilities than your average tribunal has. Probably not up the starting level of imms; but decrease the level requirement for some abilities Examples:
- Being able to change descriptions of mobs and items, and being able to switch into mobs and run around with them, as well as being able to change some properties of mobs (remove aggro flags & /for example). This would enable one to run pretty good quests.

- Being able to go wizinvis&afk. Would allow one to keep up / catch up instantly with what is being discussed.

- Be able to goto stuff in non-explore areas.

- Be able to use at in non-explore areas.

- Not be able to engage in combat with mortal pcs.

- Snoop people (though I'm sceptical on this one.. snoop has alot of abuse potential).

- Make pbf imm comments

- Grant Lastnames

Does it really matter if someone gets booted for running ####ty quests, or for failing to produce an area?

Having signed NDA/other papers and submitted scanned copies of drivers license/passport is a strong deterrent against doing something malicious. That should discourage most of the potential crooked heroimms, which makes the probability of malicious acts low, and the damage that could be done is still limited.

Greater range of areas to prove their worth => more contributions. More different stuff to do => more fun => less churn. And it would also mitigate the "prove your ability to do X by doing Y" factor.

There is of course a risk that heroimm spends all their time doing other stuff than writing an area.. but then you can always set a fixed deadline for submission - failure = boot to ensure that area is delivered.



>Just thought about it since 1) There were some discussions
>about lack of imms to run cabals and more importantly 2) The
>churn rate of heroimms is, from what I've seen, ridiculously
>high. And that's not even counting everyone that is
>discouraged from ever trying it out.
>
>Anyway, whaddoyathink?

> One other point you brought up was about coding...There is nothing stopping a heroimm from coding beyond having a mentor (which really boils down to myself, Seb & Nep) and submitting your code through them.

Cool, didn't know this.

> The problem tends to be time, and having to teach the ins and outs of the functions (which to use where, what are you trying to do, etc). I think I got to write half, if not more, of the progs for the Talshidar Caves as a 51.

>If you've got coding background, chances are you'll be given more of a shot to do this, than if you have none at all and want to learn.