You know, I have no idea which mortals you've played, but I'm wondering if you've thought about trying to immort. If you want to contribute to the game, that's the ultimate way to do it... But it's certainly not for everyone.

Our development focus has always been on the game itself. The website has gone through periods of development based on whether we had active staff members who know html or other things about web development. But we really want to make sure the game is what people are being drawn to. I've seen those games with flashy websites and crappy games - I never want our website to outshine the game we're offering, although we'd have to do a hell of a lot of web development to ever get there.

I agree that some of the information here needs to be updated. I don't agree that if we put more information here that we'll magically keep people from seeking out other sites. It's rather like the old Infocom games like Zork - some people wanted to figure them out on their own and other people wanted to be able to buy the hint book with that fancy make-the-invisible-ink-visible pen. The difference is that we're not interested in providing the hint book, but other people are. As long as other people provide that, some people will want to seek it out.

It kills the whole idea of challenging yourself at a game, but maybe those people want a false sense of accomplishment. If nothing else, I'm sure a sociologist or psychologist would have a fun time examining us.

Actually, I have thought about trying to Immort recently. Maybe one day I'll be chatting with you over the ImmChannel, I guess we'll see!

Thanks for the reply. It is rather idealistic of me to think people should "want" to figure out things rather than be spoonfed, but it is blaringly obviously this will not occur. Afterall, it IS a game and if people would rather not focus on certain aspects, or have no fun figuring out certain things, then I suppose it's okay if they find out other ways... as long as they roleplay!!!

Very good analogy with the whole hint book thing. As you pointed out, these forums aren't meant to be a walkthrough, just a bare-bones strategy guide to help people along. You're right... the best way to contribute is to become an Immortal and dig in.

Zepachu taps his cheek, obviously deep in thought.

>Thanks for the reply. It is rather idealistic of me to think
>people should "want" to figure out things rather than be
>spoonfed, but it is blaringly obviously this will not occur.
>Afterall, it IS a game and if people would rather not focus on
>certain aspects, or have no fun figuring out certain things,
>then I suppose it's okay if they find out other ways...
>as long as they roleplay!!!

I started back about 94/95, and didn't have any web resources, but I wouldn't have used them anyway. I was going all out making my own maps, learning areas, and making a huge collection of identify results. Unfortunately, I took a few years off between then and now, and so much changed while I was away that to catch up I used the web resources rather than examine everything anew. Now that I'm on stable footing, I'm going to fill in details myself. So, just to let you know, there are still people who want to do things the hard way. I compromised for a little while, but it's back to doing it all myself once again.

That's cool to hear and something I respect. Way back when, you know before the maps were burned into my head, I would put stuff on graph paper. The hard part about it is while you're looking down to draw a little star, or make a little note like "Blah blah is here!" you might look up ten seconds later and find yourself summoned, slept, and if you were a really slow writer than maybe even blind, and poisoned.

Now, of course, most every map is INGRAINED into my brain that often times at low ranks I'll stand at the large crossroads and want to go to the orphanage...

e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e s e e e e e e e s e e e e e s e e e e e e e e e e e e e e n n n n e n n e e e e e n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n drink drink s e "op e" e e e e n "k girl"

Sigh.

>That's cool to hear and something I respect. Way back when,
>you know before the maps were burned into my head, I would put
>stuff on graph paper. The hard part about it is while you're
>looking down to draw a little star, or make a little note like
>"Blah blah is here!" you might look up ten seconds later and
>find yourself summoned, slept, and if you were a really slow
>writer than maybe even blind, and poisoned.
>
>Now, of course, most every map is INGRAINED into my brain that
>often times at low ranks I'll stand at the large crossroads
>and want to go to the orphanage...

I specifically went out and got graph paper for maps just the other day. I'd have some directions ingrained into my brain if not for very slight dyslexia. It interferes with finding my way around mapless, and with making maps, but somehow once I get a map drawn, I can navigate by it flawlessly. I'll always be one of those people moving step by step without software to help.

I've rarely had any luck mapping with graph paper. I find that I end up running off the edge, or not having room for multiple levels, or worse, the problem being that ROM areas are not constrained to a grid. That is, N-E-S-W doesn't bring you back to the same room you started in neccesarily.

I actually do stupid things in paint so I can rearrange the rooms and label them like I want to. I've actually been thinking about writing a mapping tool, but haven't gotten (and probably will never get) around to it.

>I've rarely had any luck mapping with graph paper. I find
>that I end up running off the edge, or not having room for
>multiple levels, or worse, the problem being that ROM areas
>are not constrained to a grid. That is, N-E-S-W doesn't bring
>you back to the same room you started in neccesarily.

but a nice one.

I think of all the imms, nepenthes areas are the ones that give me the biggest pain in the arse when drawing a mental map. :>
(not bad, just an obs.)

>I've rarely had any luck mapping with graph paper. I find
>that I end up running off the edge, or not having room for
>multiple levels, or worse, the problem being that ROM areas
>are not constrained to a grid. That is, N-E-S-W doesn't bring
>you back to the same room you started in neccesarily.

I guess I'm lucky, since I'm ancient enough to have played the original Adventure and similar text games, and shortly after began playing the then new advanced version of Dungeons and Dragons. Both things gave me lots of practice with graph paper maps and taught me three basic things that might help.

1, don't be afraid to re-draw a map so it's easier to read and/or you have more room.

2, drawing with squares connected by lines works great. You can distinguish each box easily by a number or letter, and the lines can be any length. Most old school hint books that actually included maps used this method, even when the map was pretty straightforward. It's also something like a programming flowchart.

And finally 3, if you have a multilevel area it's often easiest to map each level separately, or at least note the up/down paths apart from the rest until you can best fit it into the rest.
(ex. the air above Galadon should be mapped apart from the city itself, but the upstairs rooms in Galadon shops can easily just be noted as an aside before squeezing them into the rest of the layout)

Yes, it's still a pain in the ass sometimes, but I'd think it's easier than writing a mapping program from scratch.

You guys are so wrapped up in 'beating' the guys who use the magic decoder pen that you have made the game so difficult that anyone who doesn't use the magic decoder pen has nearly no chance of surviving.

You have intentionally vague help files accompanied by intentionally vague posts on your official forum. The game is already difficult enough as it is. You have 15 or so distinct classes and a near equal number of distinct races. Let's not forget about the number of cabals out there. There must be hundreds and hundreds of race/class/cabal(power) combinations. I've been playing for 2 years and I can barely keep track of what to expect coming after me. Furthermore we've thief paths, warrior specs, shifter focus, etc. You've changed the practicing scheme several times. Recently there's been rash of immortal characters rollin in and doing stuff that no one's ever heard of before, who have no help files. I can't begin to count how many people have asked me for coppers cause they can't afford food or practice since the copper changes. And this isn't just the lowbie ranks, up into the mid/late twenties people have no clue how to get money. Evidently people were just ranking way too easily because you ran around and gave random ranking mobs spec skills, though you neglected to balance that by lowering their hp or any other noticable stat.

Someone comes along and suggests you throw us a freaking bone and how do you respond? You give a sarcastic insinuating response, and then throw up the immortal cloud of obfuscation all in the name of what? You don't want to spoonfeed? This is exactly the attitude that makes me visit these forums less and less frequently.

I gave up on my first character because I could barely keep myself in food, let alone recall potions. Here's some tips for getting money:

Kill a PC and take their money (if they have any).

Kill a PC and sell their stuff.

Kill NPCs who ought to have decent cash.

Explore unpopular areas, and kill NPCs there.

Play a thief and steal stuff

If you want to get rich, quick, play an evil thief.

If you're playing a good character, you're going to be stuck having more friends and less money -- but killing an evil thief might help make up for that.

I'm not going to mince words here, so if you're liable to get your feelings hurt, don't read this.


I'm sorry you feel that way, and I hate to turn your argument back against you, but it's not the Immstaff that is so wrapped up in beating "the guys who use the magic decoder pen" so much as the Immstaff is interested in keeping the game as much fun as possible for everyone. All the changes and modifications you bitch about have far, far less to do with some grand immortal plot to make the game impossible than they do.

Here's the rough history of the practicing thing.

1. Players slowly discover that having high skills helps win fights.
2. Soon, everyone decides that just to compete, you have to spend hours and hours perfecting all your skills, which is boring as hell.
3. Players complain about boredom of having to perfect skills to compete.

So, the Imms sat down and discussed how to fix the problem. All the attempts to make spam-practicing less rewarding have been to prevent item #2, above, from being true. If you can't spam practice on kobolds, then you don't need to spam practice to compete, because everyone is on the same footing (nevermind our repeated insistence, which has gone mostly ignored by the playerbase, that mass-perfected skills aren't as critical as everyone thinks).

Warrior, Thief, etc paths... Should I just have copies of all the "we need a warrior/thief/etc revamp" posts by players in the middle of your living room floor? I'm sure it's a full forest's worth of paper. This stuff happens because players request it, and we try to keep new things coming. You want to keep things nice, stable, and oh, Boring? Because that's what happens if everything stays 100% constant and predictable.

Copper changes... Gee, it couldn't be because of players who said "money is worthless, make there be cool stuff we can actually buy for a change" now could it? And there's no such thing as a free lunch, if there's gonna be stuff worth buying, money's going to actually have some value, so it's not just a free giveaway. I've had to figure out ways to make money in playing too, and you know it's just not that damn hard to find the cash to buy food and a few potions now and then.

Immortals without helpfiles? Uh, gee, I have a helpfile, and so do all the other actual Imms. All Imms with religions have helpfiles, and show up in Help Pantheon and Help Wizlist. If an Imm doesn't show up there, it's for a very good reason that you should be smart enough to figure out without me having to spell it out for you.

Yes, some mobs have spec skills, cast spells, and so on. Tougher mobs often have a higher gain in experience than those of similar level but who lack special abilities, but I suppose you never noticed that before?

Yes, we don't lay out the ins and outs of how everything works, because if everyone could just number crunch what combo was best, where's the fun in it? What makes someone the better player should be their intuitiveness and ingenuity, not their ability to do esoteric math. For that matter, what always seems to get me is that you take these "bones" people toss you as being like mana from heaven. Here's a tip, it's not the be all and end all. I read this stuff too, and not only is it riddled with misinformation, but the longer you're spending just trying to emulate other players, the longer you're going to be their inferior since you're still trying to catch up.

Don't play catch up. Learn to get ahead. No, not everyone will be able to get ahead, that's the nature of the beast. Someone will come in second. Would you rather it be based on player skill and inventiveness, or on sheer time and money like in Everquest and such? Or worse yet, just on the sheer number of OOC buddies someone has?

Lastly, what Yanoreth said about Immortal time is right on the money. I work 10 hour days, soon to hit 12, and yet I still somehow find a little bit to work in some CF. We're human, and we have lives, and we do this for free to try and make a game that's fun for everyone. Sorry that doesn't come up to your oh-so-high standards.

My feelings are not so easily hurt...

>Here's the rough history of the practicing thing.

>if you can't
>spam practice on kobolds, then you don't need to spam practice
>to compete, because everyone is on the same footing (nevermind
>our repeated insistence, which has gone mostly ignored by the
>playerbase, that mass-perfected skills aren't as critical as
>everyone thinks).

I find it difficult to believe that you find your methods in this matter to have been effective. From what I've seen, you have 85-90% of people who don't bother anymore to practice their defenses and what not to perfection. The problem is now you've further separated the average joe non-practicer from the bored practicer. What happens is joe practicer comes along and wipes the floor with non-practicer. Non-practicer though doesn't have time or patience to sit and master their skills because its been made a much more tedious project. So what happens? The non-practicer gets tooled repeatedly by the practicer of equal skill level. First you state the playerbase slowly noticed that practicing made you a more efficient killer (pk and ranking). Then you state (which you have repeatedly) that it doesn't matter as much as everyone thinks. If it doesn't matter as much as everyone thinks, then there shouldn't have been any need for change in the first place, because after all as you say it doesn't matter.

>Warrior, Thief, etc paths... Should I just have copies of all
>the "we need a warrior/thief/etc revamp" posts by players in
>the middle of your living room floor? I'm sure it's a full
>forest's worth of paper.

I love the fact that we have such a huge diversity. All I'm saying is that the huge amount of information necessary to be mentally prepared for what people are likely to toss at you is huge. That makes the game more challenging and increases the learning curve for the newbie. Imagine if you implemented all in one day a thousand new classes each with their own unique skills sets. It would be nearly impossible for any player ever to amass enough knowledge to be reasonably affective against 'most' classes. How do you balance that? I dunno. Maybe you make re-gearing a lot easier so when neat trick x doesn't work on some class you come across, you don't have to spend an hour gathering gear. (Yes, its easy to regear, this was just a (bad) example)

>Copper changes... Gee, it couldn't be because of players who
>said "money is worthless, make there be cool stuff we can
>actually buy for a change" now could it?

Money is available, and should I have need for it in reasonably mass quantities, I know where to go get it. What I'm saying is that its a common trend that few people (and I know this is only in my limited experience) know where to find even a normal amount of copper. When one out of atleast 10 or so people I've travelled with in my last character had enough cash to practice and train while we were out learning, that throws up a yellow flag. Again, I don't get to see all, so I'll qualify that by saying its merely what I've experienced. Maybe my groupmates lately have just been unlucky.

>
>Yes, some mobs have spec skills, cast spells, and so on.
>Tougher mobs often have a higher gain in experience than those
>of similar level but who lack special abilities, but I suppose
>you never noticed that before?
>

I've noticed that more and more mobs are getting spec skills than before. I have in fact noticed that those mobs give a little more experience. What does this do? It encourages me to go spam practice my defenses so I can atleast partially parry those flurries and hopefully won't die.

>Yes, we don't lay out the ins and outs of how everything
>works, because if everyone could just number crunch what combo
>was best, where's the fun in it?

Do you really feel that a FAQ on "What is roleplaying" would ruin the fun of CF and turn it into a bunch of number crunching?


>Would you rather it be based on
>player skill and inventiveness, or on sheer time and money
>like in Everquest and such? Or worse yet, just on the sheer
>number of OOC buddies someone has?
>

I'm interested in knowing exactly how you define player skill.

>I find it difficult to believe that you find your methods in
>this matter to have been effective. From what I've seen, you
>have 85-90% of people who don't bother anymore to practice
>their defenses and what not to perfection. The problem is now
>you've further separated the average joe non-practicer from
>the bored practicer. What happens is joe practicer comes
>along and wipes the floor with non-practicer. Non-practicer
>though doesn't have time or patience to sit and master their
>skills because its been made a much more tedious project. So
>what happens? The non-practicer gets tooled repeatedly by the
>practicer of equal skill level.

*   Being bored will get you killed in a PK fight -- being interested can save your (character's) life.

*   A practicer will beat a non-practicer with radically worse but otherwise equivalent skills and physical condition in a head-up-fight where both are equipped and prepped comparably and both use very similar tactics.

Of course, practicing key skills does matter to some people (invokers, assassins), but I get the idea that that's not what you're talking about.

>>
From what I've seen, you have 85-90% of people who don't bother anymore to practice their defenses and what not to perfection. The problem is now you've further separated the average joe non-practicer from the bored practicer. What happens is joe practicer comes
along and wipes the floor with non-practicer.
>>

Just from a numerical standpoint, non-practicers won't get tooled too often by players that practice all their skills to perfection, just because there aren't as many of them around (by your guess approx 10% of the mud, I'd guess even fewer). As a chronically lazy person who only occassionally practices anything to perfection, I'm okay with anything that decreases the percent of the playerbase that feels it is a necessity.

Furthermore, a couple of things come into play. Most of the perfectionists are the type of player that seek a challenge and won't hunt the same character over and over if said character has proven to be of little challenge and always wears crap gear. Also, the non-perfectionists are going to quickly rank out of pk-range of the perfectionists, or at least reach a range where perfected skills make less of a difference. So while a rank 15 fire giant warrior with perfect defense, every weapon mastered, and a good set of gear is extremely deadly, by not spending any time practicing there is a pretty small window during which he is a threat.

Finally, I've read countless logs where a player up and deletes because they got tooled - and in their own words even though they had everything at 100%. I firmly believe characters with 100% skills are rage deleted more often than characters with sub-perfect skills. I don't know if it's a chicken and egg thing though - is it that more rage deleters perfect skills, or perfect skills leads to rage deletion.

I don't know if it's a chicken and egg thing though - is it that more rage deleters perfect skills, or perfect skills leads to rage deletion.

I think it's two consequences of the same effect. Anyone anal-retentive enough to give a crap about making sure every skill is 100% is also anal-retentive enough to think that taking a PK death "ruins" the character enough that they should just start the whole process over.

Ironically, starting over is so much more painful for them also, since they spend so many more hours doing mundane, repetitive tasks, instead of socializing or moving up the ranks.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I played an invoker not to long ago. I was an elf warlock and dropped the lightning path and it still took me around 100 hours to perfect everything. That was not fun. By the time I got done practicing all the crap I deleted, because I was so burnout on the character from practice. There has been a lot of changes to other classes to get away from the spam practice crap. How about looking at invokers again?

There has been a lot of changes to other classes to get away from the spam practice crap. How about looking at invokers again?

Go 5 paths? They way the damage shields work, I'm constantly shocked how many people are willing to waste dozens of hours to basically get 1 more dispellable immunity, and a bunch of spells they never really cast.

Other than that, we're reasonably comfortable with how the invoker class stacks up. I have a few ideas in the works, but they're likely to become less powerful, not more.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Then I have to worry about losing armor once again. I'd be losing it to blasting mobs or stoneshatter. BRING IN THE SMITHS I TELL YA!

>Just from a numerical standpoint, non-practicers won't get
>tooled too often by players that practice all their skills to
>perfection, just because there aren't as many of them around
> by your guess approx 10% of the mud, I'd guess even fewer).
>As a chronically lazy person who only occassionally practices
>anything to perfection, I'm okay with anything that decreases
>the percent of the playerbase that feels it is a necessity.

I'm a perfectionist, yet I don't practice skills. Why? One, because if you use them while levelling the rate of increase is just fine. The Imms haven't 'crippled' that aspect of skill increase. Two, because perfected skills are far from critical. Decent skills may help a little bit, but strategy and thinking before you act are much better. That's part of why the people with 100% skill can get tooled. They depend on their perfected skills too much on the one hand, and on the other hand they spend so much time practicing that they don't hone different ways to fight. Another reason I don't practice is because I'd rather be out there playing the game. Levelling sometimes, roleplaying others, but not wasting time practicing. Practicing skills is extremely boring, not important, and not something I care to do. I'm convinced there's far more people who think this way than 10% of the playerbase, many of whom would rather play the game than read these forums.

The rage deleting perfectionists could be due to extreme boredom and frustration, since people keep saying "you've got to perfect your defenses", so these people go out and do that every time instead of just relaxing and enjoying the game for what it is. It's stressful to do the same repetitive and pointless tasks and see no benefit from them, just ask a postal worker.

What happens is joe practicer comes along and wipes the floor with non-practicer.

Not in my experience. My observation has been that the top-tier players don't really give a crap about practicing (especially with the new systems), and win their fights anyway. Check the recent Battlefield posts by people who did a lot of killins if you don't buy my line on that.

Again, player skill is a much larger factor than skill percentages, and player skill doesn't go away when you delete a character.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>I'm not going to mince words here, so if you're liable to get
>your feelings hurt, don't read this.
>
>
>I'm sorry you feel that way, and I hate to turn your argument
>back against you, but it's not the Immstaff that is so wrapped
>up in beating "the guys who use the magic decoder pen" so much
>as the Immstaff is interested in keeping the game as much fun
>as possible for everyone. All the changes and modifications
>you bitch about have far, far less to do with some grand
>immortal plot to make the game impossible than they do.
>
>Here's the rough history of the practicing thing.
>
>1. Players slowly discover that having high skills helps win
>fights.
>2. Soon, everyone decides that just to compete, you have to
>spend hours and hours perfecting all your skills, which is
>boring as hell.
>3. Players complain about boredom of having to perfect skills
>to compete.
>
>So, the Imms sat down and discussed how to fix the problem.
>All the attempts to make spam-practicing less rewarding have
>been to prevent item #2, above, from being true. If you can't
>spam practice on kobolds, then you don't need to spam practice
>to compete, because everyone is on the same footing (nevermind
>our repeated insistence, which has gone mostly ignored by the
>playerbase, that mass-perfected skills aren't as critical as
>everyone thinks).
>
>Warrior, Thief, etc paths... Should I just have copies of all
>the "we need a warrior/thief/etc revamp" posts by players in
>the middle of your living room floor? I'm sure it's a full
>forest's worth of paper. This stuff happens because players
>request it, and we try to keep new things coming. You want to
>keep things nice, stable, and oh, Boring? Because that's what
>happens if everything stays 100% constant and predictable.
>
>Copper changes... Gee, it couldn't be because of players who
>said "money is worthless, make there be cool stuff we can
>actually buy for a change" now could it? And there's no such
>thing as a free lunch, if there's gonna be stuff worth buying,
>money's going to actually have some value, so it's not just a
>free giveaway. I've had to figure out ways to make money in
>playing too, and you know it's just not that damn hard to find
>the cash to buy food and a few potions now and then.
>
>Immortals without helpfiles? Uh, gee, I have a helpfile, and
>so do all the other actual Imms. All Imms with religions have
>helpfiles, and show up in Help Pantheon and Help Wizlist. If
>an Imm doesn't show up there, it's for a very good reason that
>you should be smart enough to figure out without me having to
>spell it out for you.
>
>Yes, some mobs have spec skills, cast spells, and so on.
>Tougher mobs often have a higher gain in experience than those
>of similar level but who lack special abilities, but I suppose
>you never noticed that before?
>
>Yes, we don't lay out the ins and outs of how everything
>works, because if everyone could just number crunch what combo
>was best, where's the fun in it? What makes someone the
>better player should be their intuitiveness and ingenuity, not
>their ability to do esoteric math. For that matter, what
>always seems to get me is that you take these "bones" people
>toss you as being like mana from heaven. Here's a tip, it's
>not the be all and end all. I read this stuff too, and not
>only is it riddled with misinformation, but the longer you're
>spending just trying to emulate other players, the longer
>you're going to be their inferior since you're still trying to
>catch up.
>
>Don't play catch up. Learn to get ahead. No, not everyone
>will be able to get ahead, that's the nature of the beast.
>Someone will come in second. Would you rather it be based on
>player skill and inventiveness, or on sheer time and money
>like in Everquest and such? Or worse yet, just on the sheer
>number of OOC buddies someone has?
>
>Lastly, what Yanoreth said about Immortal time is right on the
>money. I work 10 hour days, soon to hit 12, and yet I still
>somehow find a little bit to work in some CF. We're human,
>and we have lives, and we do this for free to try and make a
>game that's fun for everyone. Sorry that doesn't come up to
>your oh-so-high standards.


I hope you dont take what a few people think and get bent out of shape over it. Me and at least 5 or 6 of my friends that play and rarely post things, but have been playing a long long time love the game accept that the imms implement mostly goods things and move on. I love that money is harder to come buy, all the new areas. I love that I cannot bash someone to death at 10001 exp with a giant.

Imms you do great job since you are doing it out of your love for the game and nothing more. Do not let a few crackheads get ya down.

>You guys are so wrapped up in 'beating' the guys who use the
>magic decoder pen

You know, some of the changes we've made recently have helped those who don't have a magic decoder pen. Showing levels on the who list comes to mind.

But frankly, trying to "beat" people who use the decoder is pointless. And that was exactly the point of my post. I find it interesting that you chose this opportunity to vent about how complicated the game is. In some ways, it is more complicated than it once was. In other ways, it is less.

>Someone comes along and suggests you throw us a freaking bone
>and how do you respond?

And here I thought I said "We focus on improving the game instead of improving the website" and "We've had people in the past who were interested in the website, but we currently don't" and "Hey, if you want to work on the website, you could try immorting."

>You give a sarcastic insinuating
>response, and then throw up the immortal cloud of obfuscation?

What's the obfuscation? I made a comment about other sites because Zepachu's argument about improving this site is that it would someone magically keep people from going to those other sites. I don't believe it would prevent people from going to other sites.

>all in the name of what? You don't want to spoonfeed? This
>is exactly the attitude that makes me visit these forums less
>and less frequently.

I'm sorry to hear that.

I had a longer post on this, but some freak forum accident ate it.

Summary:
1) There's a more complex and deeper helpfile system now than we've ever had. They've roughly doubled in number since I've been on staff. Things like cabal powers, assassin kicks, invoker paths, paladin dedications, etc. are now available.

2) An official forum exists. It didn't a couple years ago. A few Immortals would post on unofficial sites if they felt like it, but you had no way to reach a lot of people, and things like bug fixes and announcements were handled much less efficiently. Nowadays, if we change something, you generally know about it on the reboot before it goes in. It used to more or less change without much notice- maybe a line in the MOTD or a new helpfile while I was a newer player.

3) Looking over our roster, all empowering immortal characters have a helpfile. I don't know what you're talking about.

4) More choices and constant evolution is the reason you played for 2 years, instead of playing for a month and moving on. Simple games get boring fast. If you don't believe me, play a stock ROM MUD with 4 classes.

5) Money's supposed to be valuable. And better and better stuff is available for sale, including a couple items people frequently claim are "impossible" to find.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>I had a longer post on this, but some freak forum accident
>ate it.
>
>Summary:
>1) There's a more complex and deeper helpfile system now than
>we've ever had. They've roughly doubled in number since I've
>been on staff. Things like cabal powers, assassin kicks,
>invoker paths, paladin dedications, etc. are now available.
>
>2) An official forum exists. It didn't a couple years ago. A
>few Immortals would post on unofficial sites if they felt like
>it, but you had no way to reach a lot of people, and things
>like bug fixes and announcements were handled much less
>efficiently. Nowadays, if we change something, you generally
>know about it on the reboot before it goes in. It used to
>more or less change without much notice- maybe a line in the
>MOTD or a new helpfile while I was a newer player.
>
>3) Looking over our roster, all empowering immortal characters
>have a helpfile. I don't know what you're talking about.
>
>4) More choices and constant evolution is the reason you
>played for 2 years, instead of playing for a month and moving
>on. Simple games get boring fast. If you don't believe me,
>play a stock ROM MUD with 4 classes.
>
>5) Money's supposed to be valuable. And better and better
>stuff is available for sale, including a couple items people
>frequently claim are "impossible" to find.
>
>valguarnera@carrionfields.com


I do not know what they are talking about I never complain about something few that people do cause they enjoy it not cause they have to. Some of the poster have to get a clue.

On another note I do wonder when I can buy those unicorn pendants or etched pendants from the local merchant

>of the game. If these "cheating" people actually stopped and
>thought about how hard an Immortal worked on an area, or how
>much effort was put into designing a certain system, maybe
>they would realize that taking a couple of hours (sometimes
>less, sometimes more) and exploring a certain place or
>figuring out how a certain system works instead of just being
>spoonfed it, is the least they could do.

I'd like to believe this, I really would. But I don't have enough faith in humanity.

Some people figure "games are supposed to be fun, so I shouldn't have to put effort into it if that's not fun for me" They believe that they have a right to enjoy cf however they choose, and that it doesn't matter if anyone else is hurt by their actions, because they were wrong to take a game seriously. "Relax, it's just a game" is a favorite excuse of these sorts.

Then there are other people who specifically take enjoyment out of knowing that they're screwing other people over. And the more they're aware of the amount of effort they're pissing on, the happier they are. Think Nelson, from the Simpsons, script kiddies, and so forth. People who feel a sense of accomplishment at destroying someone else's work.

These are just two examples of people, for whom no increase in their awareness of how much other people (players and imms alike) invest themselves in the game is going to matter.

As for the rest of your suggestions, it seems to me that what you're saying is reasonable to a certain, but you run up against the same problem of what is worth putting time into for the staff. Every faq and howto that goes up is a few people who don't get immteraction, or a few bugs that don't get fixed that day. There's always a tradeoff.

Also, while I see what you're saying about adding information might make people not want to go elsewhere, I disagree that this is how it would work. I think the more you encourage people to be spoon-fed (which even something like "how to gear", which you suggest is to a certain extent), the more they're going to be hungry for that spoon. Independance is a hard virtue to cultivate in people, and the more you feed laziness the more independance starves, to put it more dramatically than is neccesary.

Yer right about all the things you pointed out. I do feel that some things would be "worth it" for the ImmStaff to put effort into. Certain things that constantly come up in the Newbie forum here, or on the channel in game, like "What do you really mean by Roleplay 100% of the time?" might be worth taking some time out to post... especially if it was in a highly visible and easily findable spot. For the time it takes to invest in that, it might save another Imm from taking the time to reply in the forum, or whatever.

And about the other things... Yea, I've always been an optimistic... That's why I constantly walk around with my zipper undone.

Type Help and the elemental path sometime and you'll see that the path is laid out. The imms made this change sometime ago. The same also applies to paladin paths and strikes. I will also say that Dio's has gotten a lot better with controlling the information that is posted there. Especially since Gabe and Dio extended the denying ability to a few more of the staff.

Not all the AIM/ICQ/IRC stuff is merely for cheating. I went to work one day and told someone I have just pked Johan. I got a look mixed between insanity and confusion. I can log onto icq or aim and talk about it to someone and they want to know what gear he had and where we found him all that good ####. That is one of the things I enjoy about cf is that we're our own little community.

Also on that note be sure to let me know if you want to sign up for the fantasy football league.

I didn't even know about "help ooze" and whatnot, appreciate it.

> Certain things that constantly come up in the
>Newbie forum here, or on the channel in game, like "What do
>you really mean by Roleplay 100% of the time?" might be worth
>taking some time out to post... especially if it was in a
>highly visible and easily findable spot. For the time it
>takes to invest in that, it might save another Imm from taking
>the time to reply in the forum, or whatever.

Well, you could take a stab at writing these things yourselves, and email them to the imms or post them on the newbie forum. I'd bet that if what you came up with would really help people then they'll either anchor the post or find somewhere to put your treatise. But there's always the danger that they won't like something about it and you'll have wasted your time.

nt