there are some noticeable differences between a lowbie using hero gear (including weapons) and a hero using them.

Saying they are going to tear up their range because of the damage they do is just a pile of crap.

For a start, people who maximise damage often skimp on saves, and are a push-over for a skilled maladictor (I include thieves in this), even at lower ranks.

Those who stay at lowbie rank to pk any they can are not usually the most skilled, and therefore are not usually that hard to kill.

Even the dirt-disarm tactic (TM) will kill these guys easily if done right. That doesn't mean march up to them on eastern road and kick dirt in their face though, unless you want to die. It means wait for a mob to disarm them, then kick dirt in their face before they grab they weapon back.

For someone banned, you still seem to have a lot of problems with game balance. I assume your ban was overturned and that you wouldn't be stupid enough to post here otherwise.

But generally, I think you just picked your target badly. His damage is nothing special (and that's coming from someone who is happy to play hero fighting classes with under 20 damroll). What killed you is your inability to defend yourself. That isn't down to spam practice. It is down to weapon matchup or the fact he's with a transmuter.

In my experience, score demonstrates that lvl 100 +10 dam gear would translate to +10 damroll on a level 0 character. Is this true? If it was true, then I don't understand how there is a gear-level-correction.

Furthermore, the difference between great gear and lousy gear, is that great gear tends to cover all the bases. When someone beats me, I sit down and look up their gear to figure out what they're neglecting. In the history of times I've done this, there were a good 2-3 times when a relatively low level character was equiped in great saves and great damgear and great +str gear all at the same time.

I did screw up, but I also got the (THAT REALLY HURT!) message. I just wanted to inquire about the gear-level-correction before getting jaded. This is a common sore point for me, (getting 1-rounded by a guy in great gear.)

for example, a weapon has a range of damage it does, before you get to damroll.

a characters hands also do different damage based on level.

a naked character will have the same damroll whether hero or lvl 1 (assuming strength the same) but the hero will hit a LOT harder (eg massacres) than the level 1 (eg scratches unless felar).

Also, having witnessed said fight while observing one of the 4 characters present while on random lowbie patrol:

1) Not all of Mr. Nep's advice applies here, because the warrior could see you, but it's certainly key for most fights, and you could have looked and ran. Also, you should have known going in that he could see you.

2) Every character has good and bad matchups. He's a bad matchup, and one look would have told you this. Not unbeatable, but you'd have to out-think him. If both of you run at each other in a brawl, I'm betting on him.

3) However, you could see the out-of-your-range transmuter with him. That's a good sign to treat him as 1.5 people. Combine that with #2 and you're in a heap of trouble.

4) Please stop asking for formulae. It never works, and you tend to get caught up in quantitative comparisons where less analytical solutions would be more enlightening.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

The mistake by me is a moot. I had no idea he was re-equiped because I had just seen him taken out. He was hasted. He could see hidden, I deserved to die.

I just wanted to know if the gear-level-correction code actually reduced damroll, and stat modifiers.

A level 12 warrior wearing a level 51 +5 damage roll breastplate and a level 51 warrior wearing the same breatplate both see the same affect (i.e. +5 damage). You could probably argue that the lower level warrior actually gets more benefit (5 hp of damage being a bigger % of the mobs and pc's he is fighting overall health)

A level 12 vs. a level 51 warrior will definitely see a difference using a level 51 weapon. But it isn't as straightforward as damage * 12/51 so if that warrior lucks upon a powerful enough weapon, he is still going to hit pretty hard.

wouldn't it make sense to reduce the effect of stat modifiers for low levels wearing high level gear?

Now that it comes to it, I'm not really in favor of modifying the weapons but that's they way things are. Let's face it, if you bring a slingshot to a gunfight, you SHOULD be at a pretty severe disadvantage.

So let's ask, what prevents someone that is decked from owning the lowbie ranks. First off, the odds of getting that gear aren't great, sure it happens, but not everyday. Then, there is distention - they can only mop up the lowbie ranks for so long. Then, there is the problem of keeping that gear, trust me it really isn't as easy as you would think. You'd be surprised how often someone can be taken down if you catch them at the right moment or bring a big enough gang. Based on what you have said and the log, I think you went up against the classic mismatch of all times - moderately geared assassin vs. well geared duergar axe spec (hasted to boot). Even if he hit for MUTILATES and EVISCERATES (very-very normal at that level) instead of DISMEMBERS you stood the proverbial snowball's chance in hell of winning a straight up fight.

sd

sometimes you're the windshield?

Gear circulates faster and more often in the hands of lowbies than it does in the hands of heroes. Anything not already in place that prevented low ranked characters from coveting, getting, or using high levelled gear would mean more gear being limitted out all the time in the hands of a few characters. For that reason alone, I'm not in favor of what you suggested. Even if it means the occasional butt kicking you started this topic with occurs.

I don't understand your arguement. The suggestion wasn't to limit gear any more. It was to make high level gear do less for lowbies. There are severals reasons:


Here are some reasons:
1. At low levels, fighting classes already have a steep edge in pk.
2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but spells and supplications are how casters + utility classes survive against huge damroll. At low levels, there's huge damroll.. But not the spells and supplications.
3. Pk aside, this sort of gear is allowing people to level faster then the curve should allow.

Benefits:
leveling is normalized for more people.
mages and utility characters don't get 1-rounded.
people get to use more skills in pk fights because they will last longer at low levels.

Please reread the following "Anything not already in place that prevented low ranked characters from coveting, getting, or using high levelled gear"

If a +5 damage bracer is only going to give me +0.5 damage because of my level, I'm going to covet it less. Given your solution, I believe you'd see less high level gear being sought after by lowbies. If you see less high level gear being used by lowbies. Since heros die less often I believe it will start concentrating into the hands of a few at the hero level and be unavailable for large amounts of the playerbase. I believe that to be detrimental to CF.

+HP and +mana gear are available for all as well. An assassin with +250 hp in gear can last longer in pk or ranking than one without. An invoker or conjurer with 200 extra mana at level 15 can rank a lot faster than one without. You seem to be focusing on one aspect (damage) of the impact of hero level gear in the hands of lowbies to the exclusion of all others.

Why are any of the benefites you list, beneficial?

>>leveling is normalized for more people.
Why should it be fair?

>> mages and utility characters don't get 1-rounded.
I've played a few assassins and never been one rounded. There are ways to prevent this other than messing with gear. Also, why shouldn't some scrawny book worm mage be ripped apart by a ferocious twelve foot tall, axe wielding giant?

>>people get to use more skills in pk fights because they will last longer at low levels.
Like what? There aren't as many skills to use anyhow. Want to last longer? Get more health gear and wear a shield.

My absolute last statement on this thread is this change would likely affect game balance in many, many, many ways. I don't see the current system so broken that risking the delicate creature that game balance is being worthwhile.

Been brought up many times, and it's not something we're remotely interested in doing. Ditto for level (or limit) caps on what you can wear, and similar functions.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>>wouldn't it make sense to reduce the effect of stat modifiers for low levels wearing high level gear?

Why?

Incidentally, I don't consider that damage extreme for a level 18 character. I further suggest that a knowledgeable player could outfit an 18th warrior to deal EVIS/DISMEMBER damage solo given some time, without the need for looting player corpses. That said...

There are always balancing factors that prevent low level characters in hero gear from "destroying everyone in their pk range". Note, these balancing factors are not necessarily formulaeic.

Helpful side note from the log: One of the many advantages to a stealth character is that you can look at them before you attack them. Ascertain if you think you can win the fight under these circumstances (which include the would-be victim's health/gear, obviously, but also other things) and decide to attack or not accordingly. (For the slightly advanced class: Also choose your combat tactics based on what you see, or don't see.) If you took a look at that guy and honestly thought you were going to win, you need to work a little harder on your assessment skills.

But you didn't reveal the aforementioned formulae! No, I sure didn't.

Ok, so all that's true. Despite his whining, though, he may have a point. Consider how easy it is for a low-ranked, well-geared, well-practiced warrior (with the right spec) to take out a mage, thief or assassin when he gets first-strike. Basically you can one-round people. Esp. when vulns are taken into account. Obviously warriors can't hide, so they should theoretically never get first strike on someone who's being vigilant about their surroundings, but nobody can be vigilant 100% of the time.

I don't feel all that strongly about it, but something like making "effective" weapon average lower for low-ranking characters might do good things. Maybe have effective avg. be 2/3 actual average, approaching 100% as the character reaches some reasonable rank (25 maybe?). Could exempt weapons w/ avgs. less than 15. Just a thought.

>Ok, so all that's true. Despite his whining, though, he may
>have a point. Consider how easy it is for a low-ranked,
>well-geared, well-practiced warrior (with the right spec) to
>take out a mage, thief or assassin when he gets first-strike.
>Basically you can one-round people.

Sure can. That doesn't really bother me.

That said, give me the lowbie mage, thief, or assassin and (assuming RP is set up to be enemies, or the discussion is moot, of course) I'll be hunting, not running from, that warrior every time. I'm just going to be a little more smoove about it than running right up and murdering him. (Or eating 4,982 preps and murdering him, before someone decides that's what I mean when it isn't)

Skill plays a factor, but I think you're stretching the limits of believability now. I'll go ahead and say it's impossible for your thief (without perfect defenses, mind you, since they're not important for PK) to solo the well-geared/practiced dual-axe wielding warrior, unless you happen to catch him already writhing. Which, of course, is always possible with a thief. With a mage...not sure what you'd do. Zap the hell out of him I guess, but he'd have to be wounded or you're still dead in a round.

I can efficiently say that at level 18 chances are his saves suck. This puts him in nice position to die to : Shaman, invoker, necromancer. Also, he's got a poor selection of detect invis, either he's stocking up on roots that he bartered for at one pound each or he's using crappy expensive weakening ones, or he's hanging around a transmuter constantly. Considering the amount of invis preps you can get, this right here is a nice advantage.

Then there's the sheer amount of wands that even at low rank can annihilate a warrior. Walk in while he's ranking, blast blast. Get yourself a smart warrior type who tanks relatively well who wants his gear and you're one step up. Even as a mage you can avoid "one rounders" by having a warrior dirt kick him then having something healthy rescue you while warrior pounds on him and you zap/spell him. As a thief I'd gang him. As a transmuter/shapeshifter, I'd gang him and use wands. As an invoker I'd get with a warrior and either zap or blast him with spells. As a shaman I'd blind and have mercenary rescue. The problem with most people is that they don't use tactics on lowbie fights because of the more likelihood to meet unskilled players in the low ranks means you usually don't *have* to use tactics.

but I think that falls outside the discussion.

As for killing a decked warrior with a lowbie solo mage/thief, it might sure be possible, but I can only remember it happening once pre-30 to either of my 4392 warrior rager applicants. Was a voker that one-rounded my fire giant(although he wasn't decked). Still, one iceshards and a freezing touch did it.

>Skill plays a factor, but I think you're stretching the
>limits of believability now. I'll go ahead and say it's
>impossible for your thief (without perfect defenses, mind you,
>since they're not important for PK) to solo the
>well-geared/practiced dual-axe wielding warrior, unless you
>happen to catch him already writhing. Which, of course, is
>always possible with a thief. With a mage...not sure what
>you'd do. Zap the hell out of him I guess, but he'd have to
>be wounded or you're still dead in a round.

In general, it isn't so hard to kill a warrior as a lowbie thief or necro. Then again, it is really easy to die too. It is risky. If I tried, I could probably get a 50% pk ratio at level 20 killing only warriors without much of a problem with either of those classes. I'd be much less confident with a transmuter, shapeshifter, or conjurer at that level, although I have done it in the past when lodestones were around.

The problem is, according to Valguarnera, the warrior in this log could see hidden and was metabolically quickened. That makes it much more difficult. If Nepenethe is capable of hunting hasted, duergar, axe-wielding warriors with his thief without a hitch, more power to him. I can't.

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

asdf

>Skill plays a factor, but I think you're stretching the
>limits of believability now.

I don't.

How do you eat 4982 preps? Is that like some wierd legacy?
Gorging the battles spoils?
Filling the wooden leg maybe?
Or the elusive snack past midnight?

Ever heard of munchies?

-Marcus, hustling ####s from african-german women for 25$ each in the blessed land of the porn industry.

Incidentally, I don't consider that damage extreme for a level 18 character.

For the curious, assuming mid-level non-limited weapons (avg 16-18... not hard to come by at those ranks, even if gathering them solo would be hard) and maximum strength, I'd estimate the amount of damroll (including the weapons themselves) he's packing from gear to be around 20. Berserk may or not be in play here as well.

A knowledgeable player could gather or purchase that solo at that level.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com