I was the one that rated your role, not the one that you spoke with. I do a fair amount on a daily basis, generally mornings.

Anyway, I left comments if you want to pick up the PBF. In short, it didn't really tell me anything about the character and I'm never really fond of such 'grand' roles. *The "I'm really a demon/hero of some god/delivered by some god/whatever".

I would have gone with no XP but it was well formatted and it appeared that you put some thought into it, so I tossed you a bone.

To be honest, I've been a bit jaded about doing more roles since this whole event occurred. Kinda sucks to take the time out of my day thinking I am helping someone out and putting a smile on their face just to get a big FU.

I IMMed because I want to help enhance the enjoyment of the game, not to ruin your day.

Hope that clears a bit up for you.

*Unless it is set up with whatever god ahead of time. You can't just assume they are cool with it, you may not know the god(dess)'s whole story or internal RP.

-----------------
"My view of Borkahd IC"
If you anger him, he'll rape you to death, eat your flesh, and sew your skin into his clothing. And if you're very, very lucky, he'll do it in that order. ~Twist

He said everything I wanted to in a much kinder fashion than I would have.

I imagine 95% of the playerbase greatly appreciates the effort you put in. Don't let one lemon curdle your cream, bud.

If you read his complains carefully its not about low immexp for the role. Its about cocky tone of some IMM.

If you read it careful it is about both.

1 n33d mY r0l3 xP!!!!
And I get hella excited when I do get xp, so... read them!

So I was going to try and let this one die, cause it was pretty obvious that it wasn't leading anywhere. But I really think this one needs a response.

First, I do appreciate the work that the IMM's do. As I've said multiple times in prays and other things previously. Second, I have admitted that I was whinney. Shouldn't have happened this way, and if I haven't said it before I am sorry.

In the end, I should have handled this differently. But at the same time, I also feel that whoever responded to my prays, could definitely handled it differently as well. It's not about you, and so I would hope that I didn't ruin it for you.

Again, I'll apologize to everyone who's reading this thread. I was wrong, I'm man enough to step up and say that.

See you in the Fields.

Did this guy make it past rank 30 for him to even have a premium that could be made? Or does that get purged out when he deletes if he was sub 30?

In either event, hope this incident doesn't deter you any in doing what you do for CF, frustrating as it might it's just one little incident. And for all the bad things there are that you have and no doubt will in the future deal with (part of being an Imm I'd imagine is dealing with this sort of general poor form players from time to time- myself included) most of the players are appreciative and happy you're up there making the game more enjoyable for the rest of us.

As an aside, since I always enjoyed Borkhad's RP and the one or two times I've gotten to sit with him, will Borkhad be a full IMM someday with a religion (or is he now?) and such or will there be perhaps some other personas that we have to look forward to from you? Don't want spoilers or anything, just curious what you're up to. Plus I had a role concept a few months ago about a Borkhad follower.

Thanks for the interest.

I am still working on the process needed to create a religion but I am in the final stages. You will be seeing a religion from me soon but I am afraid it won't be in the form of Borkahd. I'm very anxious myself, I'm a big RPer (hint for when I do have my religion!) and can't wait to get out there and RP a lot more with you guys.

-----------------
"My view of Borkahd IC"
If you anger him, he'll rape you to death, eat your flesh, and sew your skin into his clothing. And if you're very, very lucky, he'll do it in that order. ~Twist

That makes the second thing I am really looking forward to seeing in CF in the not to distant future (I hope). One is Fjarn's new area should it be opened up someday soon, and now a new IMM with a religion. Can't wait to see it, if Borkhad is any indication it should be a nice addition to the game and the pantheon of Imms we have up there wathcing us.

I imagine heroimms are kind of like rookies on a big league team sitting on the sidelines just itching for their chance to finally get into the game. Nice to see you're getting the call. Good luck with it.

...I'll try to be nice.

As Nepenthe said, you had a very large sense of entitlement that shines through in the post.

Here's what you did wrong:
1) Prayed after the role XP. Dude, that #### isn't what the pray command is for. I've known situations where the immortals were much LESS nice to people who reacted similarly.

2) You ask for something, get it, then seem contrite. Not saying that's how you were meaning to come off, but there it is.

3) 'Weeping vag' is definitely not something you should get offended for, unless you are a woman with vaginal discharge, in which case, you should be upset the IMMs are checking your IP. It's basically a way to say 'Sack up and be a man'. Listen to the imm.

In closing, if this is the thing that would keep you from playing CF, you need to reevaluate things, because REAL LIFE is much harder than this.

"God answers all prayers. Sometimes we just don't like the answers."

Bandwagonish.

How the hell is that a cop out? They told you exactly what you asked, and you ignored it because you were upset. That isn't their fault. Was the IMM in question unnecessarily ####ish? Sure, but they had just stopped doing whatever _important_ thing they were doing to deal with you, and you were venting instead of discussing. I probably would have just ignored you after I told you lack of character info. Would you have preferred that? I bet that would have made you mad, too. If this is the stuff you're praying about, then you're praying too much.

My advice to you is to pay less attention to the men (and ladies!) behind the curtain.

And I'm sure you'll get some feedback.

role subject Council of the Elements
role + The circle of elements was called. Only the strongest elemental Lords
role + was to come. Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Ooze, Lightning, and Ice. All
role + come together at the call of the One. He who was all, and yet none.
role + Standing at the locus point, an uncomfortable silence held in the room.
role + Never had such a council been called.
role +
role + With a soundless clap of thunder, felt more than heard, the One entered.
role + Talled than all assembled. His eyes the burnt orange of a raging fire,
role + his hair the dark ruddy brown of freshly tilled soil. His skin the pale
role + whitish blue of the afternoon sky. The nails at the end of his fingers
role + the deep blue of the ocean. Frosty plumes of air escape his lips with
role + every breath. Crackles of electricity can be seen crossing his eyes as
role + he gazes around the room. His hair greased back close to his scalp, yet
role + long enough to be tied into a long braid. Confidence exudes to into
role + the air around him.
role +
role + "Why call us here. Comfort is not possible with all of us here. To long
role + and the world will start to feel our absence." Gurgled Water.
role +
role + "Yessss" replied Ooze. "Why call use away? There is much to watch over"
role +
role + Looking across the assembled powers, the One replied "I call you becuase
role + the need is great. The Balance of the elements, which we seek to maintain,
role + is failing. The Darkness rises in the lands of Thera. It is starting to
role + consume all, the flames burning lower, the waters, being tainted, the
role + Earth.... Failing it is. A champion is needed."
role +
role + "Long has it been since we have called a champion." Rumbled Earth.
role +
role + "Long indeed." Said the One "But the need is there. He must be strong.
role + We must all breath our essence unto him. A small piece of each of us.
role + What say you all."
role add
role subject Council of Elements - Cont'd
role + "I will give of myself." Said Fire
role +
role + "And I." Gurgled water.
role +
role + "Aye, this is as it must needs be. I will give" rumbled Earth.
role +
role + "Air will guide him as well. I will give part of myself to him."
role + breathed Air.
role +
role + "He will have a part of me. The Ooze will flow again." gurgled Ooze.
role +
role + "And Ice shall come to his call. He will have a part of me as well."
role + said Ice.
role +
role + "Tired...." crackled Lightning "Too tired. I can provide none of myself
role + for if I do, I will not be able to provide what is needed to Thera itself.
role + Many are there that call upon me. The Darkness is calling too many storms."
role +
role + "The need is great, and time is short. We have not the luxery of waiting
role + for the storms to abate. We will move forward with what we have." Boomed
role + the One.
role +
role + "And I shall give unto him of my essence, which is to be able to gain control
role + over that which you breath into him. That he may do what needs to be done
role + and return the elements to their place, and over come the darkness. One
role + thing remains to be done." Said the One nodding to someone outside the circle.
role +
role + Just then a large Jaguar walked into the circle carrying in its mouth a small
role + bundle. Placing it in the middle of the circle, the jaguar leaned down and
role + placed it's lips on the forhead of a small half-bread babe. A pure white
role + light shown about the child.
role +
role + "Thank you spear maiden for granting unto us one of yours to aid in the
role + battle to come." Said the One "Now, it is time."
role +
role + One by one, each of the Lords stepped forth and breathed some of their
role + essance over the small child. All save lightning, who looked on with
role + what could only be described as sadness as it's inablility to participate
role + in the ritual. When all was done, the One steped in.
role +
role + "Now, we must send him into the realms. He must find his way, we will
role + guide him when we can, but we give him unto you Spear Maiden, teach him
role + your ways, and guide him to those like him. Let him stand for us and
role + the Light." With that, the One placed the babe before the jaguar who
role + took him up again and stalked off into the mists.
role add
role Subject Council of Elements - Cont'd
role + He looked up just in time to see the jaguar stepping out of the mysterious
role + mist that had fallen over the city. Making his way back to the Cathedral
role + in time for prayers, the young monk, a devout of the Spearmaiden looked
role + at the Jaguard and the small bundle hanging from it's mouth. He knew
role + immediately that this was something important. The Jaguar stalked closer
role + to the young monk, circling him and sniffing the air around him. Seeming
role + satisfied, the Jaguar walked forward and placed the small bundle at the
role + monks feet. Just then a small whimper came from the bundle. The Jaguar
role + nudge the monk, and looked again at the bundle.
role +
role + "Aye, I can take him in. We can raise him. What would you have of us?
role + Who is this babe?"
role +
role + Pictures of the events began to flash in the young monks head. Sites
role + of the Jaguar giving her blessings, the Elemental Lords breathing their
role + essences onto the young child, the One giving lastly of himself. He knew
role + then, at least what he could comprehend in his mortal mind.
role +
role + "Aye, I understand, we can set him on his path Lady. We will not fail you
role + in this."

Yeah, this is pretty much the poster child role for what I talked about below -- it's a lot of story that has basically nothing useful to say about this character's RP.

I think it's fine if you want to write an elaborate origin story for your character; I do it too, sometimes. But in and of itself it's not very useful to the staff.

That's what i was looking for. So how would you handle this differently as a character?

And as an aside, to my other point, what would the IMM's have done to a char that told them to wipe their weeping vag?

>That's what i was looking for. So how would you handle this
>differently as a character?

1) I wouldn't have had a sense of entitlement (which I think you do and I think comes across here, even if you say/think you "only wanted feedbak") about it or prayed about it in the first place.

2) If you're going to pray, put some context in the pray. There is an excellent chance that the person who answers you (about anything) is not the person who has any idea what you're talking about, assuming anyone on line has any idea what you're talking about.

3) Understand that you're probably asking someone who has other things they need to do to play the telephone game with you passing questions and answers back and forth between the person who rated your role (this is obvious because, see point 2, they have no idea what you're talking about).

In general in life, when I want something from another person and they personally would gain nothing by giving it to me, I'm going to go out of my way to be as polite and non-demanding as possible.

>And as an aside, to my other point, what would the IMM's have
>done to a char that told them to wipe their weeping vag?

I wouldn't have taken it well, but it's one of the few perks of the job that I don't have to.

Beyond the already pointed out fact that there isn't much information about who the character is. I personally don't like roles where:

1) The character is born to supernatural beings and/or with supernatural abilities. It's kind of like saying my character is a god and is already a badass at lvl 1. Unless you're going to go 300-0 in pk I have a hard time swallowing it. I mean its a little backwards if my poor little farmer boy turned warrior can kill your god. It also seems akin to that thread I read awhile back about the part demon roles.

2) Using active immortals in your roles. I'm sure people do this all the time, but, I can't understand it. How do you know that imm would actually do this? It's their character and they get to decide the choices they make. It's kind of like writting a spy book with James Bond as the character without the permission of Ian Flemming (while alive). In this case you basically have Baer blessing your character before its even born. What if you go to Baer's shrine RP and hope to be tattoo'd and Baer doesn't think your up to par. What are you going to do? Say "But you have to, its in my role!"?

There are a couple of exceptions I can think of to this. One would be to use an active imm doing something that's obviously within their role. Like Thror forging or Enlilth being greedy. But, if you must have one of them doing something that actually effects the course of your character's life, try to use a priest or some ficticious character that represents that religion. Obviously, another exception would be if something actually happened in game. Like if Baer did tat you, then I could see it being ok if you wrote a role entry about her blessing you.

I'm no role writting pro. This is just my 2 cents. Otherwise, its not a bad little read.

As Daevyrn stated, this is clearly an origin story, but doesn't explain his RP. To put this another way, since RP can be a vague term, a role should explain why your guy thinks and acts the way he does. So your char is the chosen one, but he doesn't know that. What motivates him? What experiences shaped his life. It may have been good to talk about what lessons the monks taught him.

When I first read the role, it looked very ESL. I kept getting distracted by how badly it was written. If I were an imm I would have found your role almost painful to read. Presentation matters. Bigtime. I would say it is just as important as the story.

Comment is over the top, but I can see why someone would feel annoyed when they took the time to read your role and you immediately delete because you didn't get enough juice in return.

Role reading is subjective. Sometimes you'll get a staffer who digs your role, sometimes you won't. I've had almost identical roles get 1500 and 2500. Getting 500 instead of 1000 like you're accustomed to is only a difference of 500. That's not going to screw your character, especially considering you can add more chapters and get more xp for those.

Celenai, for instance, got 500 for her initial entry and ended up with 12,300 imm xp. Istdinen started with 500 and ended up with 10,900. Ryasyn started with 500 and ended up with 10,400. Those were in the 2008 time frame, though, so may have been before imm xp rates were toned down.

I understand, and agree with your points. My point is that, with no real feedback, I didn't know where to go with the role post that. Without knowing what they saw lacking beyond no real info about the character, All I could have done, I didn't have a good feeling as to where to go. That and starting the whole thing off with "what the hell are you talking about." just starts off the conversation in a confrontational manner. I have ALWAYS said thank you when I get IMM exp for a role. I know that it's optional. All I wanted from this interraction was some real constructive feedback. Next time, I'll probably try email.

As I stated in my email, I've had enough interaction with the Imms here, that I don't think this is the norm, and am probably a bit thin skinned about this one.... Just rubbed me the wrong way.

No text

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

He told you it was probably the reviewer and a lack of explaining the character in the role. Just because it's long and wordy doesn't make it a good role.

The weepy vag comment is just too funny. Oh, Cador, you will forever live on in CF.


"Why wasn't I picked first for dodgeball?"

"Because you haven't been playing well lately."

"But I'm always picked at least in the middle!"

"Be glad I picked you at all."

"That's it, I'm out of here!"

"Wah."

So let's look at your comments here. It wasn't that I got the 500 EXP for the role that I had a problem with. I undertstand fully that a long role doesn't really = a good role. But to start the coverstation with "What the hell are you talking about?" and then when I get only its the "reviewer", and not alot of info about the character, both of which are pretty much cop outs, I have no way to make the character better with more role entries etc, cause there is no real feedback there, other than a generic throw away comment about not enough character info. With no real constuctive way to improve, I decide to delete. Letting them know that, I get insulted again. Well color me unimpressed.

>So let's look at your comments here. It wasn't that I got
>the 500 EXP for the role that I had a problem with. I
>undertstand fully that a long role doesn't really = a good
>role. But to start the coverstation with "What the hell are
>you talking about?"

Given your prays, that's a perfectly reasonable answer from anyone who isn't the person who flagged your role, which probably is what you got.

><100%hp 76%m 81%mv - 5872tnl - 5 AM> pray Thanks guys for reading >such a long role, but if I'm getting off on that bad a start, I >think I'll try something else.
>You pray to the heavens for help!
>
>
><PROTECTED - full - raining - sober - outdoor>
><100%hp 93%m 99%mv - 5872tnl - 8 AM> reply Wow, what a way to want >to keep players.
>You tell an Immortal 'Wow, what a way to want to keep players.'


And this response? Perfectly Reasonable?

>And this response? Perfectly Reasonable?

Well, look: I'm none of the parties involved in this log, but I can say:

1) You probably should disabuse yourself of the notion that you deserve X for your role. That road leads only to bitterness and frustration.

2) You probably should also disabuse yourself of the notion that either there's only one immortal on at a time or they all know exactly what you're talking about. This wouldn't be the first time or even the fifth time I've seen you pray something without much context and had to wonder, "What the #### does that mean?"

3) Allow me to elaborate on what I think the meaning of your feedback is: sometimes players manage to write three page giant wall of text roles that simultaneously convey no useful information about the character in question and their RP. I generally don't give these roles much if any XP. Without having read your role, I'd guess you went in that direction.

4) The person who took your pray ultimately kind of called you a bitch, but to be fair, you started by making (to them) seemingly incoherent demands and kind of were a bitch about the whole thing. I think they could have been nicer to you, but you definitely could have treated them better as well.

>
>>And this response? Perfectly Reasonable?
>
>Well, look: I'm none of the parties involved in this log, but
>I can say:
>
>1) You probably should disabuse yourself of the notion that
>you deserve X for your role. That road leads only to
>bitterness and frustration.
>
>2) You probably should also disabuse yourself of the notion
>that either there's only one immortal on at a time or they all
>know exactly what you're talking about. This wouldn't be the
>first time or even the fifth time I've seen you pray something
>without much context and had to wonder, "What the #### does
>that mean?"
>
>3) Allow me to elaborate on what I think the meaning of your
>feedback is: sometimes players manage to write three page
>giant wall of text roles that simultaneously convey no useful
>information about the character in question and their RP. I
>generally don't give these roles much if any XP. Without
>having read your role, I'd guess you went in that direction.
>
>4) The person who took your pray ultimately kind of called
>you a bitch, but to be fair, you started by making (to them)
>seemingly incoherent demands and kind of were a bitch
>about the whole thing. I think they could have been nicer to
>you, but you definitely could have treated them better as
>well.

1) Didn't look for a specific amount, and that's not why I deleted. If I had gotten the feedback that you posted in number 3 I would probably have been satisfied.

2) The first interraction was not what made me post this. The last one was. I could have left it alone if I that had been either a) worded differently or b) not said at all. I understand that there are multiple IMM's on at a time.

3) This is pretty much what I was looking for. And really, could have been pretty easily said here.

4) I don't know how the things that I prayed could be though of as Demands, please help me to understand how that would come across that way. I don't see anywhere in what I typed where I was a bitch. I didn't yell, I didn't demand more experience for the role, Might have come across as a bit whiney, but when I say this:

>You tell an Immortal 'Just want to know where this one fell short. >I thought it was on par with others that I've done.'

I guess I'm just trying to find feedback.

Then I get the answer "Probably the Reviewer" and then again I say this:

>You tell an Immortal 'I guess so... Three chapters worth of it for >only 500exp seems a bit light in my experience with other ones, was >just wondering if I could have some feedback.'

Now I understand and reading it can feel definitly that it could be percieved as whining. No problem with that assertion. But when you look at the relationship here, it's a symbiotic one. The Imms need the players to keep the game going, the players need the IMM's to help make the game interesting and in some cases fun. Not once in this interaction did I use any derogatory terms, call anyone names, or tell anyone off. I believe, while maybe perceived as a bit whiney, I was at least profesionnal in my discussions. I did not go Krilcov on anyone, did not curse, and in the end I truly was thankful that someone had waded through 3 chapters of role entries.

I try to respect the IMM staff, all I'm looking for is a bit of that in return.

...listen the only thing you are entitle'd to on CF is playing for free.

Seriously. Some point by point analysis.

'I try to respect the IMM staff, all I'm looking for is a bit of that in return.'

Well, posting a log telling the IMMs there are driving away players isn't exactly respecting them, but I digress. Here's the rub. How about next time, you don't pray OOC when you don't get rewarded as much as you feel you believe? That would be a good start of respecting the IMMs.

'The Imms need the players to keep the game going, the players need the IMM's to help make the game interesting and in some cases fun.'

I argued variations of this point for years, so let me tell you you are wrong. Here's how it works: IMMs need players so game can have more than 20 players, players need IMMs to act as admins so other players can't be themselves and ruin it for everyone. And voila, the conundrum is explained.

>4) I don't know how the things that I prayed could be though of as Demands, please help me to understand how that would come across that way. I don't see anywhere in what I typed where I was a bitch. I didn't yell, I didn't demand more experience for the role, Might have come across as a bit whiney, but when I say this:

You tell an Immortal 'Just want to know where this one fell short. I thought it was on par with others that I've done.'

I guess I'm just trying to find feedback.<

Listen, you prayed OOC, that right in and of itself ####s this whole situation up. Personally, if I was an IMM the first response, instead of 'What?', would have been 'If you have a problem or question about your role take it to the Forums or address an email to bobblahlah@arresteddevelopment.com' and then I wouldn't have responded to you AGAIN. Personally, I thought the IMM in question was being kinda cool, then you throw the whole deletion guilt on him, and he tells you to be more of a man.

Wait, why the #### is this a big deal again? Why am I wasting my time?

You know, I sat here staring at this screen for over 10 minutes, writing and rewriting a response to you. But its just not worth it, cause your posts aren't worth it. The comments that you posted have been said over and over, and in some cases agreed to by me. Could have been handled better all the way around. I'm just not going to waste my time any more with this topic. IMM's can lock the thread or delete it.

Where I had an orc with exposed genitalia who enjoyed flaunting the fact with copious amounts of publicly applied war paint.

Got tons of immexp but eventually got pulled aside and, very politely and proffessionaly told to "Cover up".

The best reason they gave me was that a 12 year old might be playing. That was a sobering and valid point I hadn't considered before.

While I realize there is a general risk of exposure to vulgarity and abuse from the players, it shouldn't come from the Imm's.

In fact reading this I'm going to curb my own characters cussing which I recently decided to incorporate.

The guy was asking about something. I think it's reasonable for him to think that the Imm who read and rated his role would respond.

It's also reasonable to assume that another Imm would respond and ask for clarification of the question at hand.

"What the hell are you talking about?" Isn't a resonable response as the initial reply to this guy.

Nor was the parthian shot that the immortal took.

In the end I think it was the Imm's behavior that shaped this encounter.

>The guy was asking about something. I think it's reasonable
>for him to think that the Imm who read and rated his role
>would respond.

I understand why you would think that, but in practice that will rarely be the case.

And I think it was a situation that would have deteriorated quickly reguardless.

Think of it like if you're in a cabal, and two cabalmembers are talking via group tell, then one of them decides randomly to continue the conversation and ask a not very specific question via cb. Anyone who hadn't been in their group, is probably going to wonder WTF you're talking about. I've actually asked on the newbie channel multiple times what prompted a random answer to a question I've never heard.

I've seen that Imms do try to answer whatever prays they can, but his initial pray gives no information what he's wanting feedback about or who should answer it. Just because one Imm has given him exp for the role, most likely NO other Imm online has a clue he's just gotten role exp.

I'd honestly would like to agree that the Imm shouldn't have started the conversation with "What the hell are you talking about?", but... really? It's what I'd be thinking, and if I'm taking time out of my day to try to help answer a question when I DON'T have any idea what the hell they're talking about, well...I'll probably just ask what the hell he's talking about.

Why tell them you're deleting? That's not what prays are for. Really, it comes off as a underhanded attempt to generate sympathy.

Lack of character info likely means you told a story that didn't really reveal much about the actual character you're playing. It probably didn't explain motivations for joining the guild, personality, beliefs, ideals, etc, etc.

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

And yes, that was partially what that was for and why I waited for someone to respond before the second delete. However, the answer could very easily have been something to the tune of:

"Hey, I understand, the role was sub par man. If that's what you feel you need to do..."

But being told to go wipe my weeping Vag? All I asked for was some more specific constuctive feedback. I didn't rant, I didn't go Krilcov on anyone. It was a simple question... Greated with insults.

I sent up the pray at the end hoping that maybe someone would take note, yes. Not looking for more exp, looking for feedback.

Be honest man.

You felt shorted and you wanted someone to know and why.

Be strait about this man. Intellectual honesty is a measure of ones own integrity toward themself.

Don't resist it, don't fight it, accept it, learn from it, grow.

I think you were both wrong in equal measure, but I don't think you should have prayed, I don't think the Imm should have "What the Hell'ed" you.

Food for thought: You could have written a note waited a while, then posted it.

Just be glad for what you got. I routinely get 1500 with 2000 spikes, and got bad reviews in role contests.

It does look like you wanted to spar verbaly given the amount of time you waited at the end.

Also there is a guy who often shouts in rage about keeping new player. Are you him?