Very dark-elfy, I get the feeling we've played together in the past
I also like full moon cat, so this is based on my knowledge of classes.

Now, I'd like to share my thoughts on the trapper thief issue.

The hours invested are utterly insane for practice, and the gold required to get off the ground matches that insanity. A trapper will spend, at times, 100 plus gold PER LOGIN – that's right, 3.5 gold per a certain trap. The information on the wiki is also incorrect; trappers do not set traps that quickly. Oh, and if you want to carry more than a few handfuls of traps? You have to play either a vuln blunt race or a vuln light race. The vuln light race with a 16 int will take you around 400 hours, unless you hit every bonus. Try that on for size, really. Additionally, how can any race/class, except undead, avoid being blinded – There's a reason for a bombsquad, and absolutely nobody is disarming/diffusing a trap set by a person highly-trained in them. How can a shapeshifter or any race/class think they can walk by/open doors, which could very well have multiple trip wires and traps set at different rates? Unless you can see them, you don't even know the thief is there. Oh, yeah, timing. Better have a great connection because you'll be slow on traps and get bashed down/faerie fired/killed pretty fast. I can say dying to 3 airforms multiple times by fly to/peck, which took many in-game hours, was really insane. Shapeshifters require absolutely nothing besides wands for some of them, they don't even need clothes to kill people.... True story.

What about poisoners? Why aren't they on the list? Being neuroed for 12+ hours, random blindness, lag, walking the wrong way, unable to cast/pray, and more? Poisoners are the most difficult "class path" in-game, a Knockout for example. If apply isn't 100, concoct isn't 100, you're using a knockout and emetic to make a knockout, and your knockout and emetic aren't 100 also, plus your inhaled isn't 100 – then you will fail MANY MANY TIMES. That's right, apply, concoct, emetic, knockout, inhaled – all need to be 100%. I think honestly trappers and poisoners need a BOOST, because nobody plays them, the learning curve for poisoner is insane and the investment for both is insane and the actual return on your insane ingame practice, learning and training is very low and almost sickening.

I personally think shapeshifters need fly to/peck on a timer, regardless of the debate about trappers all powerful and win button skill. I challenge anyone here to prove otherwise on trappers and poisoners and the extreme and profound pain in the ass required to even begin to get on a level playing field. Everyone here roll a trapper/poisoner and get over 20 pk wins.

Oh, and about shapeshifters, I believe they should also have the chance to revert from midair, fall to the ground, and lose concentration during combat and reverting out of form. I have thought how it makes sense, because of emotions, pain and other things at play, it's logical for them to revert at times.

Good Characters, Skaya and Fullmoon
P.S. I've played around 8 poisoners and 1 trapper for my experience, a few thousand hours worth.

Skaya deleted at 304 hours, and had perfected all traps how many hours before that? This is not exactly out of the normal for character hours. I appreciate that there are classes in this game that must invest a lot more of their time into their specific path. Invokers spam spells for a hundred hours, trappers and poisoners spam their skills. How does this compare to shifter lotto of forms, or empowerment and path receival for shamans and paladins, or the many hours necromancers spend each session raising armies, or, or, or... It's all very subjective. But I don't think they are front-loading all possible future failures just because they spent time perfecting the skill.

What I suspect is that there is a bug in trap failure code, which is why I registered it as a bug a couple months ago. Destuvius's comment below suggests the same. There should be a failure rate, and there is not. I guess we'll see.

I'm not sure why that is so controversial. I am not claiming to be a victim, this has virtually nothing to do with Taenya aside from the fact that I just played that character. This is me, a player in this game, pointing out... hey, this seems a little out of line with similar features in this game we all play.

1. He had 24 int, practiced a lot during bonuses and an endless supply of gold being tribunal, he could not carry anything without being above 50% carry weight

2.Nothing in this game for race/class compares to what a trapper and especially what a poisoner has to do constantly to be able to fight, how many of your characters have even seen 3000 gold? There is no limit to gold requirements for both and the extreme pain in the ass which borders being a masochist to play. Absolutely nothing - Prove me wrong

3.Most all forms will kill a non-villager and even most common forms kill villagers with deathblow and resist.. The shifter can be naked even.. Especially flyto/peck

4.traps fail, even with 100%

5.play a trapper or poisoner or if lucky, both and and try to not delete at level 20-30-40-50 from constant death and dying by ways other classes don't die, or deleting due to needing to know Thera very-well, what each trap/poison does and timers of each, knowing when you begin creation of trap/poison the timer goes down for it's duration... constant, constant, constant gold. Constant danger gathering with flyto/faerie fire/flyto peck X100

6.Traps fail

7.Flyto/peck should be addressed, with shapeshifter being so common, I once on an old char kept dying by 2-3 flyto/peck air forms which went on for many hours from the moment hitting level 42. Almost to the point of perma killing.

8.How do shapeshifters and other races, aside from undead, manage to clear acid from their eyes? It's so caustic that it causes blindness. Is there any way for any class or race to prevent the acid, which exploded all over them in-game and ran into their eyes, from causing harm? I don't see a logical solution if a bombmaker in-game detonated acid on you; it seems inevitable unless you've studied how to disarm traps.

9. Why can't undead be slept, poisoned, why is a players many hundred hour dagger spec rendered 100% useless vs undead? Why is my elemental attack 100% rendered useless vs an invoker, why can't I kill a storm giant with water, why do liches get all the cool tricks and why does Panmorne love his tomatoe's more than the village? I can give a lot of examples.

Gold = time. It's a game, gathering gold is part of the time spent. Again, this time is not somehow front-loading all potential failures you might ever have.

Try to become a lich. That is inarguably the hardest thing to do in this game, right? Your blindness will still have a chance of failure. Blindness is the subject here. Every single blindness effect in this game has a save/failure chance, except for these acid traps (as far as I can tell). If you have a log of one failing that would be interesting.

I don't think trying to justify game mechanics with logic is very productive, because... I mean seriously? Few things in this game are based on logic. But I could dodge the acid flask that I see launching at my face, perhaps? Or how is it logical that a gnome, a giant, and a human all walk into the same room and yet the acid hits all three of them directly in the eyes? Real world logic is not really worth discussing.

A lich requires a quest and a bunch of immortal backers, also many quality characters for said lich quest to even be given to that player, then find or not find the items..

To be a poisoner/trapper, you could have 100 quality characters, you are going to still have to invest insane time and then constant many ingame hours for resupplying, every other day or DAILY, i.e. PREP just to be able to do anything.

A poisoner/trapper is a different level altogether for the initial grind for skills, ingredients, traps and then non-stop gold grinding, resupplying. Run out of gold because you're being flyto/pecked every moment or stalked by people who see you? Too bad, you become useless.

I've played every class ingame, except a lich and a Vampyre, I know what I'm talking about.

So to be clear, you feel the level of effort justifies a 100% infallible blindness skill?

It's not 100%, I've had many traps fail to be placed in the past with 100% mastery. I do think poisoners and trappers need a boost.

Also, the poisoners, level 72 KO with full mastery is resisted by some class/races 100%

Also, poisoners don't get even get a PK credit if the enemy dies to poison, hence I had 15 pk wins? even though many dies to emetic grenades and other poison methods..

What do you feel about flyto/peck or undead full immunity to certain weapon specs/invokers immune to elemental? That is a true 100% success rate

Again, if you have a log of a blindness trap failing at full mastery that would be interesting. My experience is that if you hit a blindness trap, it will work 100% of the time. That was also verified to me by another player who just finished playing a trapper within the past few months.

As to shifters stuff, as I said to Skaya, after paying an air shifter I think they probably need attention. There should probably be a fail rate on flyto, because that is pretty out of hand. But it also is totally unrelated to this issue.

Flyto was already super nerfed from where it used to be.

You can't fly to someone who just logged in.
You can't fly to anyone if you just logged in.
You can't fly to anyone who just unghosted or until 15 minutes after.
Can't flyto in area explore areas anymore.
Can't fly up from area explore areas.
Can't fly up from shrines.
Fail fly up at times with any maledictions.

All that used to not be the case. Anyone who dies consistently to an air shifter needs to play one to figure out how everyone else escapes them. They are relatively easy to get away from if you don't panic.

Flyto takes a lot of moves, they can only do it so many times before they have to rest, that includes outlander shifters. Windwalk only helps normal movement - flyto is like a skill that saps movement.

Just. Keep. Running.

Or kill them. That's always an option.

Not if you don't use magic, blinded from peck and faerie fired vs 2-3 of them.

Or just.. you know.. go underwater

You can fly into TA if they are in the city still right? Hope they change that one day.

Truesight clears it up right away, just sayin.

As pointed out by at least a dozen people on the thread that you continue (despite "apologizing for it") to derail. So as someone else pointed out, it's either daft or disingenuous.

I see, so it's hypocritical for me to notice a bug because I played a character you didn't like?

It is not "hypocritical" of me to point out something I think is incorrect about a game feature just because you think things about the character I just played are overpowered. What IS very hypocritical is that YOU YOURSELF just played an actual quest-form-having shifter, who sat in town and racked up far more PKs than my, let's be perfectly honest, super mediocre shifter character. Yet you are so salty about Outlander and insects that I apparently don't deserve to have an opinion about anything I noticed while playing that character. Only weak characters get to have an opinion? What is the PK threshold for anyone to have an opinion, Art? Or is it all Outlanders that don't get to have one?

You want to know why I left Discord. YOU. You are the reason. You and people like you. Talking to you makes me feel like I am taking crazy pills. Let's look at the "at least a dozen people" below who commented... oh wait that was like 4 people including you commenting repeatedly. If only the voice of the minority that is so incredibly toxic was also not so incredibly loud.

CF is a game that creates passion. People feel strongly about many things (in life and in CF as well). It is not necessarily a supportive community. If you personalize everything, you will alienate people around you. At this point, you are upset, and you are lashing out. There are no characters that are universally liked (some get close to it however). Perhaps - Piti was universally liked - so maybe that's one exception. But even Piti ran a slander campaign that she got full looted when that gnome ranger Magistrate took three (three!) items from the corpse of a wanted criminal.

The challenge is that you are a wolf (a competent, PK-capable player) that continues to pretend to be a sheep. This will not be well received by many people, myself included. So you either embrace the power - Taenya was a good (and rarely long lived) Sunwarden, with great forms and was a fierce adversary with strong RP (and yes, Outlanders sometimes generate hate mail - I do not condone that hate mail - it kills immersion and boo on Holy Cross necro) - or you continue to pretend (i.e. daft or disingenuous) to play a victim (and complain about one combo - trapper thief - that your particular build - found difficult to flyto murder). I did not complain about builds that absolutely wiped the floor with Atrael - I embraced the "gift" and tried to be respectful in how I used it. I'm sure I succeeded in some ways and failed in others.

You keep saying that you got "chased off" but did you bother to pause and think how your approach killed the funstick for others? Many (not me) viewed your character as an opportunistic and "cheap" killer who hid in camo for the majority of their life. It's not all about you. It's about the game that we are all passionate about. And sometimes people will disagree with your views on balance.

I've exhausted the subject, I will not be posting further on this.

P.S.: There is no better reinforcement of the great utility of Discord than this thread.

1. I have never once said I was chased off. I left. It was my decision to do so, based on my own reaction to the constant negativity. I have explained that to anyone who has asked. Likewise with deleting my character.

2. Your idea that I think I was a victim because of this skill is only that: your idea. You seem to be fixated on people thinking they are victims. So let me be perfectly clear here. I do not think I am a victim, either in the Discord situation, my character, or this blindness skill. Nothing I am doing here is driven by victim mentality. My personal dislike of things and my own need to distance myself from those things led to my choices. As for the blindness skill, I don't know how to better explain my issue with it. Maybe try reading instead of just assuming I think I am a victim. It's a mechanical issue that feels like a bug or gross oversight to me. It is not related in any way to my DEAD character, or this DEAD character. I capitalized "dead" because you keep saying I want to get a character nerfed to benefit my character. Both of them are dead, so... not a motivating factor.

3. You love hyperbole more than anyone in the world (see what I did there?). Piti did not run a slander campaign about that gnome. People saw me as a ghost and then looked at me and saw I was missing 6 item slots. One of those people was Vartin. It snowballed from there. I literally never one time said the words "full loot." Since Atrael is one of the people Vartin talked to about it, he may have, I dunno. And it's weird that you're even bringing it up. In-character consequences for in-character things, that is the best part of the game. The player of that character and I laughed about it later, it's fine. She did run a slander campaign about Ios, however.

4. Yes, I am getting upset. With you, personally. For the things that you have personally said about me, personally. That's why I am taking it... personally. Shocking, isn't it?

You are a bast### and I mean that the best possible way. Kind of sad to see you go. You were a force of devious evil in both role and play.

Skaya, you were a really classy and well played character. I had nothing but the highest respect for you. Getting frustrated with the trap mechanic in no way overshadowed that. Seriously well done. You were a true presence that was felt far more than many other characters. Wondering if Skaya was around was often as impactful as knowing Skaya was around, from the Outlander side. And I heard nothing but good things about you as a character, even if people disagreed with your decisions or whatever, since it was all in character.

I am sorry I derailed your graveyard thread here.

Lordy... You were quite the annoying enemy to face. Especially when your times matched up with that bard so well. Traps are so unbelievably frustrating. It really seemed like blindness from your traps was 100%, all the time. I don't know if there's ever a failure you can see, etc. I haven't done a trapper but I'll say again... My God, that was annoying!

I normally relish the combat and retrievals associated with cabal wars but I burned up so many charges of wands and preps just waiting for blindness to wear off that it was disheartening at times.

However, mechanics aside, you were a solid enemy and actually had a lot of guts. I think I came close to killing you a few times but was never successful and I think you managed to get me a time or two, so, well done.

gr

In my opinion, this needs to be addressed. Having one trap thief online should not nullify the entire cabal war, which is exactly what it does do right now. Blindness traps are 100% success rate blindness that cannot be cancelled, and the blindness lasts twice as long as the timer for the thief to lay new traps. They can also be laid immediately after fleeing with no lag. It makes no sense at all to me for this to exist.

A shaman with 100% skill in blindness and that blindness edge still fails to blind people often, and their blindness can be cancelled. Just because it eats an easily obtained item for a trap thief, it gets to be 100% and no cancel?

The conversation about whether to try for the scales became, is Skaya awake? Maybe? Okay then no. Because there is a blindness trap in literally every room of the Spire (never mind other traps), so it was impossible.

As for Skaya coming to the tree, huntress yells and you know there's already a blindness trap so first one in gets blinded. That probably seemed acceptable with a larger player-base, but now first one in is more than likely the only defender. So you get blinded, run to the healer, hope you have enough items onhand to barter healing. I kept 3 in inventory when Skaya was around. I would often go through all 3 and still not cure blindness, so then you just have to wait. Can't go back to the Huntress because guess what? Another blindness trap. So she gets free retrieval, unless you do the hated Outlander thing of sitting camo at the Huntress any time you have the scales.

Staying in one room and never moving and telling all allies to stay out of the room was the only way to fight Skaya. So if I sat camo at the Huntress, she would immediately lay a trap (bacause no lag on that skill), I'd fight her, she'd flee. I can't pursue because I learned my lesson a few times before, blindness trap. So Skaya just gets to come be a nuisance as much as she wants since she can't be chased without being blinded, she can't be perma-lagged solo, and if an ally comes into the room the blindness trap hits you and them.

Make trap blindness cancellable, please, and/or have a save for blindness like all other blindness skills in the game. Otherwise, a single trap thief prevents any meaningful discussion about cabal wars.

let's not whine about one of two things that made trapper somewhat successful.

Until vindicator, the guy literally had no real powers except free detect invis in the city. And even then, his one real power, shackles, you were exempt from as a shifter!

n/t

nt

Would you say complete nullification of the capture-the-flag aspect of the cabal war helps or hurts the game? Outlander and Tribunal already have a fairly lame dynamic, because not having the scales is mostly meaningless for Tribunal. But this isn't even an Outlander/Tribunal issue, it would be a very similar discussion regardless of the two cabals in question. It's just a bit harder with Outlander because of the barter thing, and classes with cure blindness seem to be more of a rarity in Outlander. But a Fort or Battle trap thief would similarly impact Empire, for example, because evils can only get oil of sight which we all know sucks, and you can't exactly run to the healer in the middle of a cabal raid (as the aggressor).

I hate cabal wars as they stand.

Not having scales for tribunal is meaningless because tribunal gets #### for powers.

So keep some things in your inventory to barter. You also have cancellation. Potions.

You could beastcall and try to chase before a new blindness trap is set.

You could just accept that defending is near moot.

You could hunt better. A thief cannot hide on water, in woods, etc. But then you'd have to be aggressive and not sit chameleon for 400 hours. Oh look, I found an extra 100 hours!

Did you know, before trap blindness, that pepper dust was routinely used and it was a real uncurable blindless for like 12 ticks? You think trap blindness is bad? Imagine being a rager without the head in the imperial lands locked behind centurions with no way out and no way to see them to attack!! That's the CF I know and have experienced. Viva CF!


You're complaining about one guy's one trick and I'm just wanting to point out that it's kinda sad.

Would you rather face a guy that you can't fight because you're blind defending the tree, or would you rather face three schmucks with air forms hounding you who only seem to play when they can dive bomb a fight already in progress?

You don't get to talk about tears anymore.

beats me


genuinely curious who that guy even refers to other than the dude who put your whining into broader context with some historicity!

I do think it's hypocritical for Outlanders to claim "complete nullification of capture-the-flag aspect" when that's been exactly the complaint AGAINST Outlanders for about a decade now. I'm glad someone had a decent counter to a pair of flyto/murder shifters.

By the way, when facing snare, you have one person move ahead to trigger it ahead of the main force. Sounds like this tactic would also be very effective against traps...

Apples and oranges. I was going to further elaborate, but Outlander bad. Never mind anything else.

Yes.

What else will our "cancel culture" identify next? I don't see how a well-formed insects sunwarden would really struggle with a trap thief. Yes, sure, it may be difficult to fight, but I suppose that's the one (maybe only) rock to your scissors!?

Please just read and stop knee-jerk reacting because you hate Outlander. I get it. We all get it.

Non-cancellable, 100% success rate, area effect blindness is problematic for the reasons I stated. If you don't think so, okay.

When you played that fort ranger when i was mæivere, you where always online with that felar ranger, would not be surprised if that is the same dude.

Oh are we pivoting back to me being in a perma? Neat.

The immortals took the accusation seriously and looked into it. There was nothing to it. I am grateful to them for taking the time to look into all accusations, because there definitely are people out there doing shady things. I just don't happen to be one of them. I play the hours I play despite the odds, have been on both sides of the cabal bandwagons (majority and minority).

Sometimes those hours line up well with other people in the same cabal. That was the case with Nalaea and Mrwalf. We were both rangers in Fort who played late nights, so of course we hunted together. There was nothing more to it than that. I did really love Mrawlf, and enjoyed that time in the game, partially thanks to them as they were my most consistent friend during many of my play hours. He was super hilarious and consistently RPed, just truly enjoyable.

Similar things could be said about Taenya and other Outlanders. I logged in for consistent hours during the time I played that character, and those hours lined up well enough with some other characters with complimentary skills that we were a true threat, despite how much I generally suck at PK. Again, anyone monitoring the cabal channel and character interactions would have seen all communication in-game, plenty of flubs as a result, and nothing remotely suspicious.

If you reported what you thought was suspicious activity, then great. You didn't include me in that report, which is perfect. Keep doing that. It's not something I will ever worry about, because I play by the rules.

Now that I have thoroughly explained how I am not a cheater to someone who already admitted to being one, this will be the last I say on the subject ever.

The difference between you and me are i am confident enough to admit it. While you will always deni and lie about it. Like Many others.

Gr

Nah im not playing and havent since i left

Caveat - I don't perma.

Guys, we all play a game. We all have lives. Times often overlap with each other. Chances are that people play in the same time zone and play in the same cabal. Just enjoy the game while you can and stop being so immature about perma this and perma that.

BTW If two people play in the same cabal at the same time, there is no conclusion that they are permaing. In fact, perma came about because of OOC coordination (i.e. 15+ years ago I would play another game with buddies in the computer lab and we would yell #### at each other) while playing the game. It's ultimately unfair advantage.

3 outlander air shifters that happen to be playing at the same time and coordinating on the game playing 24 hours a day isn't perma - means that they're invested in the game or are just bored without playing the game.

From what I saw leveling up three different shapeshifters back in Shiftober 2023, there were a #### ton of people rolling shapeshifters and joining Outlander (windwalk is kinda OP for movement, especially air shifters) and if you played at all during Shiftober last year, there were a TON of people playing. Just because a few of them won the shifter lotto, decided to stick around, and some people think it's some OOC coordinate perma is hilarious.

Not directed at you, Skaya, even though I'm replying to you, I just find the whole thing hilarious.

nt

I love you as a player, but you have to understand that there will be points/elements of the game on which others will simply (and in some cases) strongly disagree with you. The reason to be on discord (I hope you come back) is so we can have a discussion like this not in the 1995-style forum board.

If you want to understand why you received some of the hate, you have to appreciate that a highly advantageous class (hide, flight, great forms) complaining about someone countering them appears to be well inequitable.

Xzelyx was a hard counter to my D/D combo - I did not cry "nerf critical" / scouts are BS / etc. I found ways to fight him.

If you are looking for harmony - then it's best not to "cry nerf" and then be surprised when others disagree with you.

"If you are looking for harmony - then it's best not to "cry nerf" and then be surprised when others disagree with you." You haven't disagreed with me. You simply shifted to your usual "Outlander Sucks" routine without even touching on anything I actually said about the skill in question (blindness traps, if anyone cares at this point).

This whole conversation so perfectly illustrates why I left Discord, why in the world would I come back? I suggested that blindness traps being 100% effective was out of line with other blindness mechanics in the game, and it has devolved into people accusing me of cheating, saying that I both was divebombing people to the point that I made the game no fun AND was always in camo (somehow these two things in some bizarre combination, since they are mutually exclusive), and also just another chance to crap on Outlander in general. NONE of which even addresses my original point.

I feel like you will forever wonder - "why did people like Piti and strongly disliked Taenya" - regardless of what you are told. I know you are "sensitive" but if being "sensitive" means stating a position and then getting upset when people disagree with you - then you start losing supporters like me pretty darn quickly.

I don't think you'll get much sympathy toward "I'm a Sunwarden with camo and quest air form, I have someone who I find annoying to fight, so that someone should get nerfed" position. But that's already evident in the discussion here. Come back to Discord or not.

I'm not making an argument to benefit my dead character by suggesting they nerf another dead character. That would be a little silly, don't you think? The player of Skaya themselves stated that people stopped coming to fight them because of the blindness traps, and they were bored. I was attempting to point out how these traps being out of line with other blindness effects negatively impacts the game when they are in play.

It felt like a reasonable thing to say. I have been trying very hard not to lose my patience, but that's done.

You sat in chameleon for looooooong time.

You also dive bombed air squad.

They're not mutually exclusive, yet you are either disingenuous or daft about it.

And that is a microcosm of why you cannot be taken serious about game balance and why your suggestions/gripes/whines come across as self-serving.

... but I 100% agree with this statement. You sort of have to pick a position here, ma dude. You either embrace the power that was given to you and own it, or you continue to play the victim (potentially disingenuously).

Paper. Rocks. Scissors.

Without going too far into the details of how to cure, there are methods to cures. I'm sorry that you were a shifter who didn't abuse those methodologies. Also that you're a shifter who can flyto with insects. Shamans didn't have this issue neither did Villagers for what it's worth. BTW trappers have been nerfed in the last years based on frequency of setting traps, which is something that you could have clearly taken advantage of but didn't. I don't know about you, but if I'm fighting a blindness class I keep at least 3-4 cure blindness potions or use the healer using coins. Oh wait, you can't use healers using coins. I guess my paper beat your scissors.

It's also not the longest blindness. Is it effective against one defender? Absolutely. Against two defenders? Not at all - in fact, when I first came to hero range, it was two or three shifters that effectively destroyed that tactic and I couldn't defend or raid against them.

So what happened? Similar to other characs in the past, people stopped trying to fight me because of an "overpowered" skill. It got boring. I stopped using it, knowing that I can use it if I can and used other traps. Aside from some villagers (sorry guys!), people stopped trying to fight me. Out of the last 150 hours, there was maybe ... one time ... that the outlanders tried to raid when I was about. *yawn*. Stronger paper than scissors indeed!

It's also very bizarre that you speak about this when the outlander air raid squad caused multiple characs to delete. When outlanders' air raid squad was so powerful, did you ever think that game mechanics there may be broken? Unlikely.

So that begs the question, are you speaking about this from a personal issue (likely so) or due to fairness of game mechanics? Is it that my paper was better than your scissors perhaps?

Yeah we definitely stopped trying to raid against you. That is exactly what I am talking about. When people say "rock, paper, scissors" they are generally referring to characters with the ability to kill other characters. You killed me once, I killed you twice, in all cases because we overcommitted. We were simply not threats to each other in reality. If I caught you in the open, you could flee and drop a trap. If you caught me, I could fly away and regen.

The issue I have is with cabal raids. The blindness traps did make that impossible, which is why we stopped trying and you got bored. Is that a good thing? I had no issue at all with your character, as a character, you seemed great in fact. By all accounts, you were playing the character very well, both in RP and otherwise. It would have been nice if people didn't just give up on trying to fight you, right? It's a lot of investment in a good character to get bored because there was no point to the fights.

I did try to keep sight potions on-hand when I could. Outlanders are hamstrung there for several reasons. Potions of sight cannot be bought at all when you are wanted, which Outlanders generally should be, and even when they can they must barter for them using a potion, limiting access. As you mentioned, barter at the healer is also a problem. I at first thought the blindness was incurable (as I told you in-game) because I went through multiple potions and multiple attempts at the healer to cure it, all failures. But that turned out to be my bad luck. I was able to cure it a few times afterward, both with potions and the healer.

But all of this can also be said about the blindness spell or commune, both of which can fail and be cancelled. The fact that the traps have no fail rate and cannot be cancelled meant that walking into the spire was a mine field of blindness. I even tried running around and triggering all the traps ahead of everyone else, and you'd just place more so that if we had to flee we would flee into them. Outlander being so shifter-heavy thanks to October did not work in our favor, I will grant you.

Anyway, I personally think the trap being a 100% guarantee is out of line with other blinding attacks. If there was a chance of failure, you'd see more people taking risks because the thief themselves would be more at risk. As it was, why would I try to fight you? You can just flee and drop your trap, and I get blinded instantly if I pursue. It's a guarantee. Even if I am playing a class that can cure blindness, by the time I do you are likely long gone. I did try to keep fighting you if I caught you outside of the city, but I admittedly gave up on the cabal wars thing with you. It was utterly pointless.

Outlanders are definitely hamstrung but get powers to make up for it. Blindness is one of the reasons why they're hamstrung (and I, for one, hate that even though I've played a decent amount of outlanders recently).

Right, so blindness spell and commune can fail and be cancelled. I don't think camel spit can be cancelled (and it fails on a limited amount). Dirt kick cannot also be cancelled and depending on the ranger class, that's 2 ticks. Traps are a little more than that, but requires someone to enter the room ie you can't chase with it.

I can flee and drop my trap and you get blinded instantly. You can also revert, quaff unblind potions, and continue chasing. Admittedly limited amount of potions, but hey, you weren't a fortress.

Not utterly pointless, just requires a better strategy. Would I be super annoyed if I was in your shoes fighting a trapper (allegedly skilled)? Absolutely. Would I continue to try to figure out ways to beat it? Absolutely. BTW being trapped at the Captain means fly, w, d, and go to healer, heal, fly, come back in, all within <1 tick.

I still fail to see your argument. Strategically your class and cabal combo just wasn't good for trappers. And due to shiftober, your class / cabal combo was most of outlanders. If I fought Korg, probably a different story.

There is a bit of stuff in here that isn't completely accurate regarding traps. Traps certainly can be annoying, but its by no stretch of the imagination an "I win" button.

Re: huntress yell then entering that just seems like a mismanaged defense, a thief can't get to the huntress while staying hidden and they cant lay traps in combat.

If you haven't played one, I think you should play a trapper and get a feel from the other side of the coin.

Regardless of what people might think, Outlanders don't just sit at the Huntress waiting for people. We were out doing other things, and often didn't even know Skaya was around until the Huntress yelled. Skaya was a very well-played character, great at getting in there as undetected as possible.

And really, I don't think it's an "I win" button. It's more of a "don't bother" button, which is probably worse. Can anyone give me one reason why it would be a bad thing if the blindness traps had a failure rate instead of a 100% success?

I can't give a reason of why that wouldn't be beneficial for the game. I also can't give a reason why that wouldn't be harmful to the game.

I would counter your point with a separate argument - shouldn't flyto have a time limit counter to it? IE can't flyto more than once per tick? Can you give a reason why that would be a bad thing?

After playing an air shifter, and referring to that to myself as "my flyto bulls***", I would 100% agree with you on that. Air shifters are PK easy mode. Scouting is trivial, for the most part. Escape trivial. And flyto/attack makes escape very hard for people who can't do trauma to the shifter.

The only real thing is, there's already that trauma dynamic for air shifters, so putting a timer on it kind of makes that tactic less meaningful. Maybe put in a fail rate for flyto so it's not just an automatic success, like when you try to flyto to orcs or rangers in their home terrain (but not that extreme). Something. Air shifters are bonkers.

You say air shifters are broken as is blindness traps. I tend to disagree because, quite frankly, air shifters have never ever ever bothered me except the fact that they can escape at a whim. In fact, they can just do fly, dodge like a mofo, and leave at their discretion. Kinda like how a trapper can drop a blindness trap and escape at their discretion. The only different is that a) for air shifters, you can limit this by malediction or earthbind and b) for trappers, you can limit this by cure blindness preps. In fact, it's easier for air shifters to escape than a trapper. You're argument is based on one class and cabal combo unable to do much, supposedly, against another class based on a niche set of situations because of how it was presented to you. You never argued that shifters need to be changed even after you deleted.

The reasonable conclusion is that a) limited circumstances are not construed as overpowered and b) this is less about game mechanics and moreso about your experience with the set circumstances.

Ironic.

I've said virtually nothing since I deleted my character until today. I can't imagine why.

Let's agree on *SOME "Outlanders don't just sit at the Huntress waiting for people." Others do. Taenya spent a lot of time sitting in camo / perhaps just afk clocking hours... but quite a bit of time sitting in camo.

Assuming the code isn't buggy or wasn't broken inadvertently that is. The investment to return ratio on trappers seems to be pretty reasonable when you compare it to other things.

Re: a don't bother button -- there are tons and tons of things that fall into that, and it varies drastically from build to build so it makes it more difficult to actually dial in a real problem or a RPS situation.

Blindness traps do not fail. Ever. If the trap exists, it will be triggered, it will hit all applicable targets in the room, and it will blind them. There is no failure rate, no save, no exceptions unless the target is immune to blindness like an undead or shifter form that has blindsight. I have had this verified by someone who played a recent trap thief.

You were absolutely a dark-elf magistrate and later vindicator. We had our spats and we had our respect. You played trapper thief like an absolute pro, too. So very well done.