But they sure were interesting, I 'hate' fighting well-played shamans. I was looking forward to other ones as well, a pity things went the way they went. Do come back with something like this

The whole helpfile on them is being wild and uncivilised yet most end up Imperial with no hoops jumped through or big setbacks.

Sorry to see this happen. You were definately starting to settle into the whole shaman class.

Good luck with your next.

I can totally understand why you would feel like I was setting you up for a failure by popping in when I did. The intention has certainly not to come down and make you fail or make you get anathema or anything of that sort. What the intent was to come down and do an interaction with a solid character who was doing well on all fronts (PK, RP, good attitude, good sportsmanship). I had made the assumption that you would react to and roll with the RP as that had seemed to be what you were doing in all other instances that I had seen.

I can say that I was really surprised when there was not a fountain of rp coming from you during that short interaction because you were usually on and RPing to high hell. I had hoped that it would have been an enjoyable situation for all involved that ended with the possibility of immxp for people involved, perhaps titles or some other sort of reward that makes those moments fun for the players. Looking back at the whole encounter/interaction, I will say that if I could do it again, I would do it differently and make sure that I offered a better "out" for your character that wouldn't force you into such a difficult spot on the RP side of it.

I managed to break one of my own cardinal rules of being an imm during that event last night, which was that I essentially "forced" you into an immteraction that (I now know) you had no interest in receiving. For that, I am sorry because it has led to you taking a way bigger loss than it should have. I know that me saying sorry doesn't allow you to get back your character, but if nothing else I hope that it lets you realize that I am just a person like you who at the end of the day is trying to make experiences on this game fun for everyone involved.

Takes a lot to admit something like this when you don't have to.

We all make mistakes.

No one really handled it well.

nt

nt

I agree that everyone could have done better - if I was at my prime, I could have probably danced a way out that would have worked but I just wasn't in that mindset. Asking for a blood reckoning as Artifical had mentioned could have been a possible route but it happened fast enough and I was frustrated enough that it did't occur to me.

I did pray for interaction with you a few times... and I did want some sort of interaction - just not with Reegun in that way. I hadn't even said a single word before I was threatened with death from a player who had nothing but praise for me earlier but now needed to "show off". Take to heart what people are saying about whats going on lately with the Empire and hopefully you understand the frustration about that particular player.

It takes a big guy to come back like this, so thank you.

I think it's great that you stepped up and apologized. I think though that most people took it for what it was (At least I did, and I read a few others who did) a good intention that didn't go as planned. As good intentions sometimes tend to do when you deal with humans, and the actions of humans can sometimes be quite hard to predict.

Anyway, I wish more imms would apologize when something doesn't go as planned. Not that I think that all imms should always apologize. 99% of the time it's the players that #### things up.

Anyway, kudos!

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

I just want to that was a very brave and big-hearted thing to say. As an admin, you have authority and you could've stood your ground on the matter, but you admitted the error (which you definitely didn't intend to commit), and I have a lot of respect for that.

Thank you, and I think this sort of thing is what makes CF a good place. We're mostly good players and admins trying to make the game fun for everyone. Sometimes it doesn't pan out, and often it's not down to malice or anything.

Kudos for being willing to look at it again.

You made a mistake, you did not intend for that to happen to Torak. I think anyone who says Destuvius meant for this happen must be harboring a grudge against him or some other bias. Torak could have stayed quiet and done what he was told, but would he have been turning his back on his own RP if he had done so?

But you were only trying to do what the players want the imms to do, which makes this all the more horrible because nobody wanted this outcome.

To me the only person who screwed the pooch here was Reegun. When equipment comes into the picture, her RP turns to #### and the greedy player is all that comes out. That's just my opinion.

Thank you for saying you're sorry. People make mistakes, we're human, that's life. What sucks is when someone tries to weasel their way out of owning up to it. You didn't, you stepped up like a man, and that's the best thing you could have done. Thank you for that.

it takes a man to stand up and admit fault, even unintended ones. Thank you for being a Stand up Immortal in good and bad. I am sure you'll only become better from all this.

Just wanted to say I have an enormous amount of respect for you after reading this. I genuinely believe you had no bad intentions.

You are a good example of someone trying to make the game better for all. Thank you.

Its good to see both parties come to an amicable end point.

You sir have my respect. I give you a lot of credit for this post, we all make mistakes during the learning process that is life.

You came across as slightly-abrasive for a "junior" imperial character, but I chalked that down to Daevryn Priest RP.

You were competent, and clearly always up for fighting the Empire's enemies. Much respect for that, and I'm sorry things went down the way they did.

I don't know the full story but if it's really a clear case of supporting sportsmanship (like returning items to someone who was fulled) I hope that Destuvius would be in support of that.

You were the toughest foe I've had since Jarlduz, Elasia and Haratzi I believe. My first few fights, I had no clue at all how to beat you! All the usual tactics I used against shamans would just end up badly and I'll be close to death running away.

I found my stride yesterday fighting you trying something different that I really think wouldn't work. (Though it did.)

Not sure if you noticed, but the second kill I got on you was due to a bug. FYI I bugboarded it ASAP. You would've gotten away if it hadn't been for that bug. (And perhaps the entire fight would've gone differently too.)

Anyway, you were a solid pressence for Empire, we didn't talk much but you sure know how to PK with Shamans.

I hope to see you on the fields again real soon with something equally deadly.

I'm sure Dest doesn't feel good about how it all went down either, after the fact now that the dust is all settled. How could he? Its the general consensus that the interaction caused the deletion of an otherwise good character. Probably not the direct intention, and everyone appreciates more immteraction.

So hopefully it is live and learn, and in the future things like this won't happen again.

In my small opinion though, immortals have no business interfering with things like looting and individual player relationships/dealings. That's player politics, imms need to stay back from stuff like that. Reegun wouldn't have said a word about the rings going to the wood elf had Destuvius not directly called him out for doing it.

Like I said, I'm not here to bash anyone. I'm offering my constructive opinion on what went wrong, and how it could possibly be approached in the future so players do not feel slighted. The situation is lose lose for all, because now Destuvius and some of the other staff will have much less drive to interact at all.

I'm starting to think this game is becoming more headache than pleasure for a lot of people, players and imms alike.. I don't know where I stand anymore on the enjoyment level of it.

I hadn't interacted with you as much as I'd liked, but I was hoping to create some more interaction with Empire down the road once you'd gotten a bit more power.

I saw the log on Dioxides. Love Marintok, and I totally understand your motives IC and OOC. Seriously sucks.

I feel like Destuvius had good intentions (trying to create some evil IMMteraction) but he picked a real bad situation to do it in.

There is no reason to handicap characters who wish to return things to their enemies. It might not jive with RP but if we want RP to be the only consideration, why aren't we encouraging multikills and full-sacs?

I liked fighting against you. It's always different when you're on the opposite end of a dispel and you have a potential basher spamming bash against you. Last night's fights were very enjoyable.

Sucks. Oh well.

well I liked you from when you were little (you had a little bit of crazy heavy handed rp) I think you actually told me one time that yes you would let me help you retieve if I was quick about it, hahahaha and i helped retireve a couple times after that, its hard being the only islander on when things are so far out of whack. But you seemed to handle the swings pretty well, on your side on day and against it the next (though empire hasn't been in full swing in awhile).

Sorry trying to help me out got the anthema train rolling on you, and I don't see anything wrong with what you did with the rings but i guess i am just to nice a player. Oh well come back and try again maybe for the island.....?

p.s. I will say I think it would be hard for Empire to alienate everyone who is not empire, especially people who help you on a regular basis. But I am not in the cabal and don't pretend to know the specififcs of it.

Maybe if I'm an mindless zombie who screams 'BRAINS!' I wouldn't get a small piece of your set back, but even then, I might still do it... because you're a good thing for the MUD.

You deserve everything you're getting, nice holding out against the odds.

Part of Empire is sucking it up when someone above you tells you what to do or insults you. I get why both Behmurra and Torak would've wanted to tell Reegun (or Destuvius) to go catch fire, but again, there are consequences to not restraining oneself in Empire and you know that.

I also know why it was put into motion and it stinks - I wanted to wash my hands of it all.

as usual.

Good riddance.

I think it sucks you got Anathema. However, I refuse to believe that you thought your actions would end any other way. You have played this game long enough to know that its a terrible decision to act up with the Emperor/Empress as a lower ranking Imperial. If I remember right, you had a felar a-p that did a similar thing with a similar outcome.

I did not tell you or ask you to do anything, Reegun did. I did not make you do anything that was in direct violation of what Reegun told you to do, that was a choice you made. You can be sour at me all you want, but the way things played out were 100% IC between you and Reegun, not me.

Sorry you didn't have fun for various reasons, but based on your goodbye post that you made it is pretty obvious that you were looking for an out already. If you come back with another character, I hope its more fun for you.

gr

I'm not sure where the disconnect is from the log and what I said.

but the way things played out were 100% IC between you and Reegun, not me.

I was referencing the final result (the anathema) not the entire interaction. Sorry for the lack of clarity there.

>You can be sour at me all you want, but the way things played out
>were 100% IC between you and Reegun, not me.

That's hilarious - if you hadn't shown up to bad-mouth an act of kindness to a good player, infront of your follower, Reegun wouldn't have done jack. You had motive, Destuvius, don't try to walk away clean.

I had the choice, I could have swallowed the medicine, but you put it in Reegun's grubby hand. You wanted a spectacle.

OOC: Yeah, it was cool you were trying to hook up Marintok. I agree, he is a great character for the mud.

IC: It was pretty awful RP to see you so worried about how well a non-Imperial is faring, especially when he was offered the oath and denied it.

If I wanted a spectacle, I would have just hit you with the Anathema stick myself. At least then all of your crazy would have been validated.

He's a constant ally, when half of the Empire is never around, and the leader of the freaking Island. How many times has any of the Empire been around when 3-4 villagers take the Codex recently? You don't bloodoath everyone - not everyone has a place in the grand scheme every second of the day. There's a reason we suddenly don't declare war on the Tribunal and its because you need to win people over. Never heard of diplomacy? Politics? If you had watched Behmurra at all, I was constantly giving things away to people, aiding the Chieftain to try and win back his aid, the Inn was talking about reopening the bar in the Imperial City, and more to actually bolster support for the Empire. The whole character was based around the fact that the stagnation of a pathetic Empire had forced me into awakening because the old Imperial gods were rolling around in their graves watching nothing change. I had great ideas for the Empire and I was hoping to actually get them implemented...

The fact I had very small support (two freaking rings) for someone who laid down their lives for the Empire, constantly, and was actually useful means I actually understand the "Grand Design" and bigger picture and don't want to be a 2nd rate Orc clan. Don't you even have an Imperial Ranger "Compatriot" walking around who isn't oathed? I had more goals than just "let's login once a week, do some Inferno raids, and logout".

You didn't swing the anathema bat - you handed it to Reegun, who knew that someone had to go soon because all his inner circle does is login together for exploring... and people were getting tired of Empire Oclock - and honestly so was I.

I'm not crazy, I'm angry at the state of the game in general. When it averages 15 people, 1-2 who don't want to fight, and fair weather is all the craze, it gets old. Just because you're evil, doesn't mean your asshole to everyone - and you showed up with the exact intent to prove me wrong. IC or OOC, they both sucked.

Reegun presented you a very simple choice while holding said "anathema bat" and you essentially grabbed it from him and swung it at your own head by your choice. I suppose we will disagree if you don't think you did anything to warrant that anathema.

As I started the first post with, I was disappointed to see you get Anathema and I did a fair amount of watching you. You were a fun char to watch who did a lot of good things. Perhaps the big disconnect that we have is in the core management of Empire. No matter how much good you may be doing behind the scenes, there is a really simple chain of command that you need to worry about.

Imperial imm and god of Empress questions an action you make. Empress then tells you to do something. Empress then tells you consequences for not doing what you are told. You do not do what you are told. Consequences delivered.

The entire way all of that played out was very much an IC thing and I'm sorry if you feel that I as a person slighted you as a person because of how it occured.

But you catalyzed this whole thing Dest.

You were the reason any of it happened. You came down solely to stir the pot.

I doubt Reegun would have done anything if you hadn't come down and questioned Behmurra here, and it pretty much blows that someone essentially got punished for trying to IC hook up an IC character who is pretty much a truck-a-saurus.

Is it Behmurras fault? Yeah, he saw how it was going to go down and acted out by sacrificing the rings. (personally I would have given them to Marintok anyway and then literally gotten anathema'd for trying to help out a well-played character) But you were the catalyst for the whole situation.

But are you completely free of fault? Hell no.

Just for the sake of clarity, I do not think I am "free of fault" in this whole thing. I will happily admit that I was a player in the whole interaction that occurred. However, I am not willing to say that it is *my* fault that Behmurra got anathema.

The reason I went down there was to talk to Reegun who had prayed for me a little bit before that. What I then did was present an opportunity for an interaction (which our players are constantly saying they want to have occur).

It is situations like this one right here that make it so that its much more difficult to go out and do immteractions with the mud as a whole. What was a 100% IC discussion/occurrence has turned into a big giant ugly mess because one of the people involved felt slighted in an OOC manner because of the way things unfolded IC. Each of the three of us involved in the interaction played a part in it and made a choice for what we felt our character would do in that moment. It just so happens that the actions of one person involved in the interaction forced the hand of another person involved for the sake of RP. There was nothing OOC or malicious about the whole thing.

When our players cannot accept the IC consequences of IC interactions, it really takes a lot of the drive from me to try and present said interactions for people who are not trying to be a part of the religion.

I think you are doing a magnificent job. You and Reegan. Don't let one whiny little player get you down! Keep up the player IMMteractions =)

I can definitely see that side.

And I do appreciate the presence you give to the Empire, a lot.

Part of this is my person dislike for the current crop of Imperials.

However, I think it's important to remember that as an Imm your presence in this situation, especially how you handled it (IC though it was) sort of held a gun to Behmurra's head. Reegun felt the urge to peacock in front of you, as most (if not all) of us try to do in front of an Imm. There was really no way out for Behmurra. Especially if he was a prideful Daevryn follower. I don't know Behmurra's role or is RP, but I imagine a Daevryn follower isn't really about being meek and going back on his word. His only answer here was to tuck his tail between his legs and take his beating. I don't think he could have gotten out of this with anything short of a demotion. Which in itself sucks due to the hit to donations and the sour taste in his mouth that none of this would have happened if he wasn't trying to do a nice thing in an IC manner.

If a superior tells you to do something stupid or that you disagree with, you have to do it. The upside is once you get a position of leadership, if you tell someone to do something stupid or that they disagree with, they have to do it. Of course if you are always directing stupid stuff, you time on the council or throne will likely be short.

After I read the log, I almost felt Bhemurra was ooc because I would not expect a Daevryn follower to decide the disposition of one ring to be the hill they decided to die on, but since the player had already decided "#### it," that's what we got along with some forum grand standing. But, has Torak ever deleted a character without forum grand standing to follow?

I like his chars, it just seems a bit to much drama at times.

If you can't interact with a mixed group of Imperials without encouraging a follower to demote/anath a non-follower. Of course Reegun is going to take that opportunity to try and shine and be hoss nuts in front of you. While at the same time talking OOC in character to a lot of his running crew when nobody is actively watching.

I like the religion, but it does encourage this sort of thing especially while you're present. But really that could be with a lot of evil cabal religions.

Why did you feel the need to make this interaction. By questioning his motive to loot ring and give them to marintok you were defending the idea that the minotaur should have kept it? When it was played out it was apparent that you had some issue with this 'charity'. Yet, on the other hand you were appearing to be favorable/charitable to the minotuar. Why did it matter?

So the empire now has some rings from an enemy who died. You cannot change this, the minotaur died. The rings were now property of the empire. This shaman of daevryn wanted to place them within an often allies hand - as he and reegun both cannot wear them.

You uncloak and do your thing. Reegun now feels as though to force and demand he return to the things to the dead enemy.. or to a blade.

So it is wrong that it goes to "sometimes ally". It is okay that is goes to "enemy", and it is okay that is goes to "empire blade"

What is the reason it is okay for imperial property to go to "enemy" but non-optional to give to "sometimes ally". It makes no sense. It should have been a flat out decision of "Imperial" or no one.

Have to say I certainly didn't care much for Behmurra - ICly, at least. Honestly, you were a frost giant in my spheres and you went Daevryn!?

On a more serious note, I've certainly had times I didn't much care for your characters, but I did enjoy what I watched of Behmurra. I wasn't really certain what you wanted when you approached me (I'm assuming just interaction?), but oh did Jormyr want to smack you.

Anyways, I certainly know how Destuvius might feel. Evil is *hard* to do when you hold all the cards because you want to roleplay your character properly evil, but you're also generally trying NOT to ruin someone's day.

Ultimately, if you're not having fun, then I wish you the best in your endeavors. If the urge comes back, I hope to see more like Behmurra.

The random message was honestly just trying for a little interaction - I would have been fine with a smack, I was pretty much toeing the line of a smite and I'm fine with that as an enemy priest. I wasn't empowered and had been waiting around for Daevryn with 0 people in my range... and I was bored of spamming so I started talking to random people.

Honestly I thought about making a follower of yours but the problem is that a frost giant non-Imperial is pretty frustrating. I really believe giant shamans need some sort of incentive with mana regen because you go out of mana all the time without black channels. Take a class that was doing ok with mana and add about 10+ abilities to your repertoire (with quite a few that cost 150+). Behmurra would lose over half his mana just putting up his basic communes, which some last only 3-4 hours, without channels... and I even geared for mana. When I played Danjuh it was the same story.

Nothing personal, it's just a mechanic problem I feel that's not really addressed.

Don't think your religion works well with Empire?

Haha. Two answers to that question.

1) Though he went Empire, I had the thought right away when I first saw the character created.

2) Do I think Empire + Jormyr is a natural fit? No. Do I think it's reasonably possible? Yes. The Empire is about ruling and order, yes, but to accomplish that they've got to do some conquering along the way. If you're the guy who wants to be out on the front lines slaughtering opposing armies, then Jormyr's happy to support it. All that nuisance of ruling and politics probably won't be your cup of tea as a Jormyr guy, though.

Summary - The religion is definitely designed to lean heavily chaotic and somewhat evil, but I'm actually open to quite a bit. The giant disclaimer in the helpfile mostly refers to the fact that Jormyr himself is chaotic evil, and if you're worshipping him, he's going to strongly encourage you throughout to ignore those pesky laws you're supposed to abide by, or just kill that useless beggar who keeps harassing you for gold.