Some paths feel more lacking than others. Please add flames, ideas, suggestions, input, etc. Maybe we can get some good ideas from these implemented.


Backstab – Chance to add some bleeding damage if strength is high enough (for svirf, human, and duergar thieves)
Steal – upon a successful steal of an item, you’ll have a chance to take a few coins as well (though not as much as you would if you were stealing just coins)
Evade – an edge that makes this slightly more effective if you’ve previously chosen the “lucky” edge
Pick Lock – an edge that becomes available after a certain % skill goal, can pick locks more effectively (several levels above what you’d normally be able to do)
Relock – chance to break the pick in the lock, making the lock unusable for several hours
Disarm - based on dex, chance to pick up weapon immediately if you’re tanking (expensive edge)
Circle – Dual-wielding daggers, you have a chance to thrust both daggers in their backs for less damage each, but higher total damage (similar to axe spec’s “double whirl” edge)
Opportunity Strike – an edge that while directly fighting someone who is not hindered (like bound), this skill becomes more effective

Binder
Level 12 Nimble Fingers – edge to make untie even faster
Level 17 Blackjack
Level 19 Eye of Avarice
Level 21 Bind Legs – an expensive edge for tying someone to a nearby anchor, they are prevented from flying
Level 24 Precision Strike
Level 26 Gag – edge to make this binding last longer, incompatible with edge for blindfold
Level 28 Blindfold – edge to make this binding last longer, incompatible with edge for gag
Level 29 Bind Hands
Level 31 Sleeping Disarm – edge for better success rate
Level 33 Tie
Level 34 Truss – available when you become a master of this skill, once someone is fully trussed, the binding will not fall off as easily
Level 36 Drag – edge to drag at a faster rate
Level 38 Shadow Drag – edge to reduce lag on dragging into shadows


Pickpocket – Master Pickpocket – an expensive edge that has a chance to grab two items instead of one
Level 12 Plant – on a successful plant, have the chance to grab a few coins
Level 15 Discerning Gaze
Level 17 Bribe Mercenary – an edge to allow bribing of tribunal guards and centurions
Blackjack
Level 21 Deft Touch
Level 23 Double Back
Level 24 Precision Strike
Level 25 Appraise – an edge that would tell you if there might be something more special about this item than meets the eye (like if it progs)
Level 26 Warning Skill – An edge that alerts you when someone in the room can see you (i.e. duergar, tribunal, etc) while you’re hiding
Level 28 Improved Hide
Level 29 Container Stealing – an edge to know what to feel for and get away with something more useful (i.e. potions over food)
Level 33 Acrobatics – an edge that dodges spells that would reveal you that are targeted at your (like faerie fire)
Level 34 Advanced Picklock – at a higher skill %, an edge to occasionally make unpickable locks pickable with a chance to break the pick in the process
Level 35 Shopkeeper Favors – an edge to see how much money the merchant has available to purchase items with
Level 36 Counterfeit – master of counterfeiting edge, your counterfeits are so good that the item won’t crumble for a long time, and anyone who is a master of loring will still sense that the item compares to the real one, but will perform much more poorly than the original
Level 37 Shadow Disappear
Level 38 Fence – an edge to get more than you’d usually get for your item
Level 40 City Ties
Level 42 Guild Protection

Poisoner – Menacing Glare – You’ve learned to make your ugliness especially menacing and so the effects of fear on those you’ve poisoned are more potent and also sap their morale (lower the charisma, the better)
Master Concoctor – You’ve learned how to poison potions without changing their base properties
Poisoner – an edge that allows you to contact poison talismans and wands *wasn’t sure if this was already possible*
Poisoner – an edge that allows you to look at an ingredient and immediately tell what the singular property of it is (i.e. in the short description: a root (fear)
Poisoner – an edge that will allow you to see what you would make as you put the ingredients together (after you type in the ingredients, you try to make “fear” poison)
Level 12 Apply
Food Poison (method)
Concoct Poison
Emetic Poison
Level 14 Drink Poison (method)
Concoct Antidote
Level 17 Inhaled Poison (method)
Level 19 Knock-out Poison – an edge to make a failed knock-out poison attempt could leave the victim gasping for air (low-level asphyxiation, like having gills out of water, almost)
Level 23 Weapon Poison (method)
Neurological Poison
Level 28 Grease Weapon – An edge that dull the weapon for a little while
Level 30 Fear Poison
Level 33 Contact Poison (method)
Level 35 Weapon Nick – edge to give greater % chance to poison someone
Level 36 Mind Control Poison
Level 40 Grenade/Launch – edge to make grenades more potent

Trapper – edge to make it so that if a trap fails, there’s a chance there will enough of the ingredients left to salvage it and use the ingredient a second time (trap ingredient left on the ground)
Trapper – Frugal Trapper – edge where you don’t use all the ingredients of a trap in making the trap
Trapper – Deadly Trapper – When using quality ingredients (ingredients within 10 levels of your thief), your traps hurt much more than usual and effect tend to last longer
Trapper – Resourceful Trapper (Also called the MacGuyver Trapper) – Using improvisation with the resources around you, you can make very weak traps with no ingredients
Trapper – edge to tank slightly better when using a shield
Trapper – Able Trapper – With this edge, your traps, if lower level than you, will operate at the ¼ difference between your level and it added to its original level, rounded down (i.e. You are level 51, you have a level 21 trap item, 30 level difference, your trap would work at a level 28 level trap)
Trapper – Master Trapper, available after Able Trapper edge, works the same as above, except at ½ difference added to original item level
Level 12 Detect Traps – edge to detect snares, nets, bramblepits
Detect Traps – edge to detect magical area effects in next room (like snowing, raining boulders, quicksand, and webbing)
Level 14 Gentle Walk – an edge to make this even more successful
Level 16 Physical Trap
Level 16 Glowing Trap
Level 19 Disengage – an edge to make it so you can use this even while tanking, requires high disengage skill % and gentle walk %
Level 23 Shield Block
Level 24 Thief Waylay
Level 25 Combat Steal – After mastering this skill, while tanking, you have a chance to land some small damage after a successful combat steal
Level 26 Knockout Trap
Level 28 Weapon Trip – edge for more damaging weapon trip
Weapon Trip – edge to cause feint in the following round upon successful weapon trip
Level 31 Direction Trap
Level 33 Isolate – edge to disorient the victim after successful isolation
Level 35 Damage Trap
Level 39 Burst Trap

Thug
Level 12 Push – on a successful push, will cause detriment to morale, stackable up to three times
Level 14 Knife
Level 17 Cheap Shot – When mastered, edge for “bruising” victim that messes up healing rates
Level 21 Weapon Butt Blackjack – edge for when weapon butt blackjack (if used to open combat) fails, will immediately try to knife the victim (if also wielding a knife), must have high % in both skills
Level 26 Parting Block
Level 28 Payment of the Coward
Level 29 Sucker Hit – moderately expensive edge to make this skill do more damage
Sucker Hit – edge to cause a feint the next round after successful sucker hit, can’t be combined with more powerful sucker hit edge
Level 30 Gut Shot – an edge to increase the strength and blood loss this causes
Level 31 Death Strike – expensive edge, if someone you’re fighting dies and another person of opposite alignment is standing in the room, will attack that person with a death strike
Level 33 Grapple – careful grappler edge, you get hit much less often with a successful/unsuccessful grapple
Grapple – reckless grappler, you have a good chance to wrest no_disarm
Level 34 Separate – edge to disorient the victim for two rounds of lag after separate
Level 35 Third Attack
Level 36 Strike on the Abandoned - expensive edge, if someone you’re fighting dies and another person of opposite alignment is standing in the room, will attack that person with an abandoned strike
Level 38 Earclap – edge to give chance to work even if wearing protective headgear

n/t

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Fear poison and neurological poison have great and interesting synergy with other paths but are a little expensive on the thief paths right now especially considering their current effects.

I would volunteer edges to become adept at a single type of poison. The mind control edge should allow a limited ability to force people to quaff potions again (or just stop using power word kill and enough damage to kill a person outright in potions/pills in explore items, there's a thought). I forget if there was a way to implement this or not, but allowing people to poison potions/pills would go a long way toward making this edge interesting rather than going through the trouble of making people eat poisoned food with poison you could otherwise apply yourself.

The emetic poison edge should turn emetic poison from a plague-type effect to a crimson scourge type effect. It should have added damage, a lower timer, or cause vomiting to happen on pulses instead of ticks. It could be similar to the speed of cloud of wasps, without the random distraction.

The knock-out poison edge should cause knock-out poison to have a similar after-effect to sleep darts on an assassin. The perk of KO poison is it has no re-use timer, but this edge should apply a re-use timer that will leave opponents slowed.

The neurological disruption edge should take effect faster and apply all of it's negative effects either on the moment of contact, when you see the target shiver and suffer from an effect all of them should be applied at once, or apply them excessively fast, on the order of less than a tick. Three or four rounds. To balance the presence of this edge, neurological poison should screw with movement far less when it comes down to that particular effect.

The fear poison edge should make the fear poison more potent, rather than a chance to act like the character is in wimpy range make it ALWAYS apply like wimpy range. This particular poison needs a good synergy with knife. It should also completely negate the ability to use bash, since it already last time I was affected by it, negates the ability to sing plenty of offensive bard songs or rest. Trip should still work, but no lag moves that damage directly should work.

The poisoner path was overnerfed, and the path itself should be something of a utility path, not like the trapper path is now but, you know, actually useful. So edges to help tweak the edge point costs of the poisoner skills or their effects are important. There should be a good reason you're skipping grenade, mind control poison, earclap, guild protection, etc. essentially most path's second and last skills in favor of combination.

The helpfiles should also clearly indicate if the combinations of ingredients affect the speed of the affects being applied, the potency of the effect, or the duration of the applied effect both to people and weaponry/items. Rather than leaving it vague to say 'combinations make poisons weaker and stronger' there needs to be more indicators because as it is now pure poisoners can spend their entire lives being nigh useless even if they have a batch of ingredients to play with simply because their targets can eat them alive if they don't do something silly like go Rager.

As it is now I think poisons aren't balanced compared to the other paths, the only path lacking other than this is trapper which is really only useful in it's entirety at a cabal outer. Edges can fix this, if you're not willing to tweak the cost of the abilities. (personally I would apply the edges at a moderate cost, make them exclusive to one another, and then lower the thief point cost for poisoners overall, and the trapper path to compare) As it is now, a poisoner cannot disable a melee opponent toe to toe enough to get around a 40 or 60 damroll without prepping against the average player.

Resist poison's coding versus poisons is very good right now. I think to counter the affects of all these edges, resist poison should negate them in addition to the benefits it brings to saving against these poisons.

As it is now you're vastly better off picking one main path and one or two crap skills from the others. Moderately expensive to extremely expensive edges that combine high %'s in a combination of low and mid-level skills (preferably beyond the first two you get in a path) would go a long way toward not only balancing out the weaker paths with the rest of the paths but also making them more dangerous at hero against opponents who would simply outdamage them toe to toe. Trapper and poisoner again come off as the desperate parties in this respect, but there's several possibilities of lag avoidance edges with Acrobatics if it's current success rate is tweaked downward that would still make it a viable skill.

I've merged several of these that I liked into my 'thief edge idea' list.

Please please throw binders a bone. How about an edge that when you blackjack someone it auto-gags them? Binders get 1 hour blackjacks until around rank 45 already making it almost impossible to fully bind a foe, and you have to step out of the shadows to bind someone which would be a great edge as well, shadowbind?

The two problems with the binder class as of now is that people can not only call all their cabal to help them unless they are very very far away, and that you are completely visable and helpless as you try to bind people.

"as they crumple to the floor you quickly shove a gag in their mouth"
"you manage to stay hidden as you wrap a rope around your foe"

>Please please throw binders a bone. How about an edge that
>when you blackjack someone it auto-gags them?

Which part of that would be fun or interesting as the victim?

Hey, there's nothing fun about dealing with binders as it is.

I'm sure you've either been a binder or on the opposite side of a binder and this is how every single one of my three binders went when I tried to fight anyone.

blackjack enemey

enemey cb "Jacked insert place where he was jacked"

calvary comes to kill binder, who isn't hidden because you can't hide and bind, who is trying to use the only skills he's given, skills he can only use when a victim is sleeping.

Thieves have low hp to start, making it so that the victim can just call for help everytime they are jacked therfore more or less negating the only skills given to a binder thief. How does that make it fun for the thief? You have a skillset that can only be used on a jacked victim, and a blackjack timer that is now very short.

Now I think it would be more fun for both the thief and the foe if that edge was in place because first off hitting all your bindings in time of the short blackjack timer is difficult in itself.

The only problem I could foresee is if the binder is a gank happy pker because it would make it easy to kill someone, but then again you've already made it so bindings fall off when more than one person fights someone so that takes care of that. It would be more fun to fight just one person than have everyone in the cabal come unbind your foe, or at least have the CHANCE to bind them.

A big advantage of being in a cabal. But, arguably, that's why binders get drag and shadow drag.

Garble during ko timer. Or drunk speech or mino speech.

It will rarely stop the cabalmates from guessing correctly but when it does it'll be a lifesaver.

If you want this edge to be expensive, make it last during the whole re-use dazed from blow to the skull timer.

That's a lot of edges! I like all of them in some form, probably too many and hard to do all of them given there are five subclasses.

Here are some more random ideas.

Fast stealer - less lag after steal

Gold grabber - better chance of grabbing more coins

Scrollmaster - better at reading scrolls, bonus to duration or strength of effects

Clever waylayer - allow thief to be able to attempt to waylay someone if they can't see them, not just if they are hidden (that is, if target is blind or they can't see you as invis). Arguably, it should really already work like this.

Slippery slicker - City slickers can get bonus to dodging/acrobatics

Knifer - After a knife, the target can get, what else, the "knife" malediction that ups AC

Sneaky - auto engage sneak again after fleeing

Dirty fighter - bonus to success rate of dirt-kicking, chance for extra hour of dirt

Distracting disarm - using intimidation and quickness, thugs better chance at disarming weapons they don't know

Many deep pockets - Trappers/poisoners really need room for lotsa stuff in their inventory

Gazing city ties - Slicker can tell target's hometown when looking at him

Brawling rogue - bonus to cheap shot damage when know brawling

cheap shot, especially to fire on weapon trip if it doesn't already
parting block (especially improving the success rate on flying opponents)
knife (cause bleeding)
thief bindings, specifically things like gag, blindfold or tie hands to maybe cause minor damage if the opponent escapes from them
dirt kick to have abilities different from a bedouin's, stackable low duration -chr perhaps
Bribe Mercenary to include tribunal special guards and centurions
shopkeepers favors or eye of avarice or allow thieves to gague a merchant's funds sans what he has in the bank with either an edge, enough commerce exp to unlock the edge, or both
fence
city ties
weapon trip, possibly to do some neat tricks using a whip causing effects similar to cross-down parry at the cost of wielding a weapon they don't know, or do -dex or -chr
weapon nick to increase the occurence of neurological poison's effects if it hits a major artery or vein such as the neck or wrist or elbow, but don't do -chr because we have faceslash
grenade
weapon butt blackjack to possibly include knife if it fails
payment of the coward to include grapple if grapple/separate/payment have the requisite skill percents
earclap to include a loud yell or something to mitigate the effect of headgear
Gut shot to have an ability similar to a dagger spec's twist with the same drawback, potentially breaking the dagger to add some moderate -dex without causing damage
grapple to include spitting to increase the chance the opponent will simply fumble the weapon but also to add -chr

n/t

So long, and thanks for all the fish!